Can this work

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

I guess the reason I'm asking is so that you can ask yourself what do you want besides this physical female vessel.  The woman has more to her than her body, sexual activity is a very small part of a relationship, so it's imperative that you begin to contemplate what type of woman you want in your life, what value she would add to yours and what value you would add to hers.  If you think this woman by herself is going to cure loneliness then you're mistaken.  You're beginning from a broken state, so there's a strong risk that your unhappiness will worsen.  You'll wonder why you have this woman that you wanted so much, yet you're still unhappy.

A fundamental principle of being in a strong relationship is having the ability to be content by yourself.  If you're not beginning with that, then no relationship can ever be a great one.  No person will ever live up to your expectations, so you need to be certain that you're content as is, and a woman is just complementing an already fulfilling life.  To be honest you shouldn't even think about dating until you get to that place.

For me its everything here, her personality is amazing, the way she engages with me and people around her, happy smiling, laughing, I end up happy smiling and laughing. I just feel comfortable being me. You also need to understand, you do everything on your own for 20 years and then actually have someone to walk on the beach with, have lunch with, share things with and its just nice to do these simple things. To be asked how you are, to be hugged, to actually have someone taken an interest, nobody ever takes an interest in me really. 

I am motivated to be the better best version of me, its pointless doing this if I feel no attraction to the person at all.

[Weezy1973]

29 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am motivated to be the better best version of me, its pointless doing this if I feel no attraction to the person at all.

Yeah you’re not getting it. Being motivated to be the best version of yourself has nothing to do with women and your attraction level. It’s internal. Happiness comes from within. You keep talking as if your continued failure leads to your beliefs and thoughts and loneliness. And it’s obvious that your expectation is such that if ever you did succeed in achieving mutual attraction and entering a romantic relationship, suddenly all your problems would be solved. 
 

It doesn’t work like that. You need to resolve your problems first. And only then will you be able to make a meaningful relationship work. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Weezy1973

[ZA Dater]

One thing I can say is that even with a very outside chance at this if I get clobbered again it will be fairly easy to walk away from dating completely because now I have had 90% of what I actually want. 

That's always been the thing with defeat after defeat I kept going on the basis of what is the very best experience I can get. To be honest there isn't much I can think of that I want which would top the time I have spent. What I also know is if I get clobbered I'd be chasing this and frankly I don't fancy my odds of finding it again.

The question is...how overt do I make my interest, it's difficult now after I critiqued her current set up date?

I have told her I really enjoyed spending time with her and she agreed it was a great weekend. I guess I need to make some sort of move here?

She has agreed to come to an event with me...

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Yeah you’re not getting it. Being motivated to be the best version of yourself has nothing to do with women and your attraction level. It’s internal. Happiness comes from within. You keep talking as if your continued failure leads to your beliefs and thoughts and loneliness. And it’s obvious that your expectation is such that if ever you did succeed in achieving mutual attraction and entering a romantic relationship, suddenly all your problems would be solved. 
 

It doesn’t work like that. You need to resolve your problems first. And only then will you be able to make a meaningful relationship work. 

With respect and I mean that with lots of respect.

Success will banish a lot of those issues because I'd be able to believe in possibility, I'd be able to say " yes I can do this".

Happiness also comes from the environment one is in.

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

One thing I can say is that even with a very outside chance at this if I get clobbered again it will be fairly easy to walk away from dating completely because now I have had 90% of what I actually want.

-snip-

The question is...how overt do I make my interest, it's difficult now after I critiqued her current set up date?

Are you suggesting that you got "clobbered" here? 

What did you say when you critiqued her current set up date?    If you are going to make your interest overt, you would do well to stop acting like the BFF who listens to all her friend's woes.  

Edited February 28, 2021 by basil67

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My point being is he could not lead a conversation, whereas I am quite happy to lead a conversation. 

You are assuming that this matters to her. It may not. 
She may be attracted to him for any number of other reasons.

[Weezy1973]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

With respect and I mean that with lots of respect.

Success will banish a lot of those issues because I'd be able to believe in possibility, I'd be able to say " yes I can do this".

Happiness also comes from the environment one is in.

The respect is mutual. What would be success? A few actual dates? Sex? A few months? Marriage? 

[jspice]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

You are not fond of me anyway so this response is no real surprise. FYI its water off a ducks back,  have had worse.

Clearly you did not read .....it was different to not be sitting in the guys position for once and as merely an observer. Anyway she seems to be indifferent toward him so who knows, I am sure you are hoping I take another big loss on this, which is alright, my life mission is to prove people wrong, simply because if I accepted what is I'd have nothing now and be the nothing most people thought I would be. See, even growing up I was not normal.

 

 

I did read. Very well. These are your words. 
This poor guy was just trying to hang out with a woman who he was set up with , and you’re gloating because he felt uncomfortable. 

THIS is why. 
 

When you’re awkward, you appreciate it when someone makes you feel less so. Do you know what WOULD have gained you points? Had you been friendly to this guy. Stepped in when he felt awkward and changed the topic, or had a side chat with him while the others puffed out their chests about whatever the topic was. 
I would’ve noticed that if I were in her shoes. 
 

[redacted]

 

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

Well I the inexperienced dater went head to head with her date yesterday and if nothing else I suspect I actually ended up looking better than he did. He certainly was not too tier either, I was more confident and outgoing in the conversation.

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ilhe did that all by himself by being awkward among the group of us and then showing some fairly poor manners. It was fun to be on the other side of this for a change.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, jspice said:

When you’re awkward, you appreciate it when someone makes you feel less so. Do you know what WOULD have gained you points? Had you been friendly to this guy.

Totally. When a woman brings her partner to a social gathering for the first time, she is very aware that it’s an uncomfortable experience for him. She will usually try to ease his way to help him to be comfortable. It’s all about making that introduction - she wants her friends to like him and vice versa but she probably doesn’t have high expectations. The simple fact that he was uncomfortable but went with/for her would win HIM points. 

I think you are using the wrong measure of success. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, jspice said:

I did read. Very well. These are your words. 
This poor guy was just trying to hang out with a woman who he was set up with , and you’re gloating because he felt uncomfortable. 

THIS is why. 
 

When you’re awkward, you appreciate it when someone makes you feel less so. Do you know what WOULD have gained you points? Had you been friendly to this guy. Stepped in when he felt awkward and changed the topic, or had a side chat with him while the others puffed out their chests about whatever the topic was. 
I would’ve noticed that if I were in her shoes. 
 

[redacted]

 

 

I was friendly toward him and got him back into the main conversation.  Nobody I have been on a date with has ever bothered to make me feel less awkward. I also did have a side chat with him.

[redacted] I will take a big loss on his one as apparently she does like him enough to go on a 4th date. Which leaves me predictably nowhere as usual.

She is coming to an event with me at the end of March but pretty much what I get here is the lovely friend attention, where to decide "ok this is all I actually want/need" is much more difficult.

Edited March 1, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
goading

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

Are you suggesting that you got "clobbered" here? 

What did you say when you critiqued her current set up date?    If you are going to make your interest overt, you would do well to stop acting like the BFF who listens to all her friend's woes.  

Clobbered is better sounding than rejected. I was honest when I critiqued him,both good and thing's I felt were not so good so I kept a balance, which was not very easy considering how much I like her. Yesterday I said to her " I think if you feel something towards him then go on a few more dates, maybe you like him more or like him less".

As you can see I do the friend thing quite well. It's all I know how to do. It would seem just about the only way to get anywhere would be to just let whatever happens play itself out with this guy and I dunno just try in a friend way just keep projecting my best qualities. As I say I don't know what to do other than that.

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The respect is mutual. What would be success? A few actual dates? Sex? A few months? Marriage? 

I'd be happy with a few dates. I can't overreach too much because I know I don't have the experience to. She knows my daring woes by the way.

If not that then friends I guess would be ok. Again people her won't get it because the idea is you want sex and everything, what if I simply cannot get that because the world punishes me for having no experience. The next best thing would be a friend like her.

 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, BaileyB said:

You are assuming that this matters to her. It may not. 
She may be attracted to him for any number of other reasons.

It does because she told me after she met him again yesterday that he is very quiet, it's hard to get him to talk. 

I don't compare unfavorably barring the fact I am younger and have zero experience. I'd say this time I am in decent enough shape to come off the bench and play in the game because for once it's a game worth playing in.

I am meeting some of her family so that should be interesting, I'll have to put my best foot forward which considering the cultural similarities might be fairly easy.

[ZA Dater]

Ok so I have had some time to think about this, spoken to my few confidants and I actually going to take a great step into the unknown and hopefully I do not fall off a cliff! She is coming back for an event I have invited her to. Her brother is also attending the same event and in some cultures in SA it is vital to have family approve of any new suitor, she seems to fall into this category. I cannot overstate that a lot of why we get along so well is because our backgrounds are so similar.

I need to tell myself I can do this, I need to reaffirm positive beliefs and try and banish self doubts, what I do know is I can play pretty much open cards because she knows quite a lot about me, I have made no great secret of the fact I enjoy spending time with her. She invites me to spend time with her so that part is mutual. She enjoys intellectual conversation which is one thing I can do quite well. In short I need to try adopt a winning mentality, Wheezy is right in this respect. 

One thing I have learnt is you need to throw in some humor which I can actually do if I try, maybe my beliefs were self limiting here. My tactic will be that during one of these light hearted moments I'll say something like "well we have lunch before, breakfast many times and dinner at home 4 times, can I take you out to dinner" 

As my one confidant (K) told me if I don't try I will forever wonder, I suppose the risk is she really hits it off with the current guy in which case my cause is more difficult but I cant worry abut what I cannot control. I am also going to get my playboy friend in my corner, he can help a bit as she likes to be "set up". 

I might as well try something for once. Any other suggestions from the the more experienced people on here than me(that's everyone).

Critically I need to NOT feel despondent and NOT allow myself to feel like that and I CANNOT let what has happened before impact how I go about this.

[Trail Blazer]

Dude, if you somehow pull this off... 😲😁😎

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

She is coming back for an event I have invited her to.

Is that a personal invite as your plus one, or a more general invite, where she may invite a plus one of her own... or is it not that kind of a formal event?

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I might as well try something for once. Any other suggestions from the the more experienced people on here than me(that's everyone).

I think even more important than a winning attitude is understanding that if it doesn’t work out, it’s no big deal. If it turns out she just isn’t attracted to you, it just wasn’t meant to be. Not crushing. Not a defeat. You certainly aren’t “clobbered”. 
 

And along with that attitude adjustment comes the ability to take risks. If you can shrug off rejection as genuinely not a big deal, you’ll take more risks, and that will give the aura of confidence. It’s a positive feedback loop. 
 

And so risks in this case are being completely honest with her about wanting something more romantic. Not assuming she knows. You can do this by telling her, or even riskier (and therefore projecting more confidence) going in for a kiss. You may get rejected (that’s the nature of risk), but you may not. No risk; no reward.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Is that a personal invite as your plus one, or a more general invite, where she may invite a plus one of her own... or is it not that kind of a formal event?

Basically a my plus one invite. I have been quite transparent about that and she wants to come along. Again in SA some cultures are quite conservative, both her and I are from that culture so maybe that explains some of the view I have often projected here. 

I spent some time with her again today just talking about the day, the funny moments, the not so funny moments, eye contact is really good, I have not always had this and she is very attentive toward me. Everything we talk about is personal type stuff, there is some general chit chat but not too much. 

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think even more important than a winning attitude is understanding that if it doesn’t work out, it’s no big deal. If it turns out she just isn’t attracted to you, it just wasn’t meant to be. Not crushing. Not a defeat. You certainly aren’t “clobbered”. 
 

And along with that attitude adjustment comes the ability to take risks. If you can shrug off rejection as genuinely not a big deal, you’ll take more risks, and that will give the aura of confidence. It’s a positive feedback loop. 
 

And so risks in this case are being completely honest with her about wanting something more romantic. Not assuming she knows. You can do this by telling her, or even riskier (and therefore projecting more confidence) going in for a kiss. You may get rejected (that’s the nature of risk), but you may not. No risk; no reward.

I think the odds are a bit better for me here than they usually are just by virtue of the commonalities we share, for me a rejection is a loss but I am not going to take my mind in that negative direction, instead I am going to use this opportunity to just who I am, for a LONG time I basically hid myself away because every time I brought myself out I never seemed to truly fit with the person sitting in front of me, they could not relate to me. 

Absolutely I am going to have to take some risk but I reckon the risk is at an acceptable level for me to take that risk. I was reading some interesting opinions from women about how they feel rejecting a guy and what I had not fully thought about before or even understood that well is its not very nice for them to have to do it so the bad feeling can be on both sides. Quite why I had not considered this before is probably attributable to flawed thinking on my part.

My goal each day not is to try keep myself out of my shell, keep that confidence up, its going to be massively hard but I am determined to try because in some respects the level of communication I have had is because I decided to climb out of my shell. Hopefully these posts are perhaps showing a bit more confidence.

[normal person]

23 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

One thing I can say is that even with a very outside chance at this if I get clobbered again it will be fairly easy to walk away from dating completely because now I have had 90% of what I actually want. 

No, it won't be easy to walk away. Either you're lying to yourself, or the feeling of satisfaction will wear off eventually. What you're describing will eventually not be the victory you think it will be, it'll be just a less painful loss. Maybe it will even galvanize you or fill you with some newfound confidence to go out there and keep trying (which would be great), but there's no way you'll be able to rationalize this the same way over time. 

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd be happy with a few dates. I can't overreach too much because I know I don't have the experience to. She knows my daring woes by the way.

If not that then friends I guess would be ok. Again people her won't get it because the idea is you want sex and everything, what if I simply cannot get that because the world punishes me for having no experience. The next best thing would be a friend like her.

Again, no it wouldn't be. Eventually you'll grow tired of being the orbiter who's content just to be in her presence, who she views more or less like a gay best friend. I have to wonder if part of you thinks that if you're simply a really good friend and a really good shoulder to cry on when the chips are down, that she'll eventually realize how amazing you are and want to be with you a la some horrible rom-com. In actuality, that's the surefire way to make sure she never respects you as a potential suitor. She'll never want to date you if she senses that you're the kind of person who's content to be a lapdog, a consolation prize, or a last resort, which will be the message you're broadcasting: "I can't have you but being around you is good enough and I can't do any better, so maybe some day that'll be enough." This alone is a losing strategy; she'll think you're sweet, but pathetic, not a "real man." If you want to give yourself any sort of a chance, it needs to be obvious to her that you're not pinning all your hopes and dreams of love and happiness solely on being in her proximity. She needs to know that she is very far from the subject of a 13 page thread on a forum. She needs to know that you have other plans, sources of joy, hopes/dreams, romances, responsibilities, etc independent of her. I haven't read this whole thread but from what I have, it seems fairly obvious that this woman knows you're interested in her and may even be trying to create some emotional distance as someone else suggested. Single women don't hang around with single men without the thought or consideration of romantic compatibility or implication. 

If you ever want her to respect you as potential suitor, the best thing you could do right now is to be friendly, but not eager. Pay attention to her, but let it be obvious that you have other people who want, need, and are worthy of your attention too. If she's dating someone else, don't think she's going to come running to you as a knight in shining armor if it doesn't work out. Work on your own life -- even go out with someone else and tell her about it. I'm not suggesting you date someone just to waste their time and use them as a talking point, but I am suggesting you don't waste your own time waiting for something to happen, and leverage your time doing something that might turn the odds in your favor. Let her see the things you have going on for you, not her. If she brings around this guy of hers, don't try to one up him or act bitter, she'll sense your jealousy in a half second. Treat him as you would otherwise. Continue living your life as if she's not a big part of it (because let's be honest, she shouldn't be at this stage), and maybe her opinions about you may start to shift. Give her reasons to respect you, not reasons to pity you. Best of luck. 

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Her brother is also attending the same event and in some cultures in SA it is vital to have family approve of any new suitor, she seems to fall into this category.

I'm a bit confused, are you suggesting that she may be bringing her brother in order to get his approval of you? Or could this be just wishful thinking? 

Edited March 1, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, normal person said:

If you ever want her to respect you as potential suitor, the best thing you could do right now is to be friendly, but not eager. Pay attention to her, but let it be obvious that you have other people who want, need, and are worthy of your attention too. If she's dating someone else, don't think she's going to come running to you as a knight in shining armor if it doesn't work out. Work on your own life -- even go out with someone else and tell her about it. I'm not suggesting you date someone just to waste their time and use them as a talking point, but I am suggesting you don't waste your own time waiting for something to happen, and leverage your time doing something that might turn the odds in your favor. Let her see the things you have going on for you, not her. If she brings around this guy of hers, don't try to one up him or act bitter, she'll sense your jealousy in a half second. Treat him as you would otherwise. Continue living your life as if she's not a big part of it (because let's be honest, she shouldn't be at this stage), and maybe her opinions about you may start to shift. Give her reasons to respect you, not reasons to pity you. Best of luck. 

This is my way of thinking, amplify the things I have going on in life which is pretty much what I have done from the start. The projects I am working on, the events I am planning, the novel I am writing. Exactly leverage the odds in my favour which means keeping busy, looking to do things and show I have other interests. 

I have no issue with this guy I chat to him, make small talk, he always looks very uncomfortable and unsure around me because even a topic like sport I portray confidence, that is what I am trying to do each day, portray confidence in everything I try and do, its more a sense of mind and I need to push through and keep doing it.

She is nice to spend time around but I am hectically busy with a million different things, many of which she seems to take some interest in.

[ZA Dater]

Decided to take the advice of a close friend of many years and simply just friendzone her. He believes I am going to face a catastrophic loss here going up against the other guy and again I suppose if you introduce logic and remove emotion that is pretty much what will happen. He reckons I should rather see if she introduces me to her friends, which I feel will be unlikely.

At least I had some idea of how good it could be in what I would call my own perfect scenario so whichever way I look at it, I have benefitted hugely. I have someone else who is falling over their feet to meet up with me but I am not really interested at all. 

I have always wanted something very specific which I happened to find this time so at least I know how good it is but the entire thing is so specific I am surprised I found it in the first place and the chances of finding it again are slim to non-existent. 

Perhaps this is called sobering reality but nevertheless I can still carry on being positive and moving forward. 

The reality is for me I'd rather orbit an ideal than date someone who does not meet my ideal. Which will get me slammed here so I am bracing myself for the comments which are sure to follow. With dating I have always chased this particular ideal which people wont understand but it makes sense to me at least, it all goes back to what "wows" me, no wow makes the entire scenario a non starter.

At least with friendzone that lonely void in my life is mostly filled.

[elaine567]

Is she still seeing/dating "the other guy"?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Is she still seeing/dating "the other guy"?

She does not live here and he is trying to spend as much time with her as possible, which to my eyes is looking a bit desperate as is the very feigned interest in her baby. I am not going to run myself down compared to him because I need to be kinder to myself and not figuratively throw myself off a mountain. Remind myself of all the good qualities I do have.

I have some positive to take out of this, at least I know how good it can be and part of me is very glad to have experienced that. I am unlikely to ever have kids so spending time around her and her baby made me feel acutely realize how much of life I am going to miss out on. I think fundamentally I am suited to the settle down and live life type of relationship, truthfully its what I always wanted.

Someone I can spend time with, do things with, share things with and who I find attractive. 

Its good to feel something.

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Decided to take the advice of a close friend of many years and simply just friendzone her. He believes I am going to face a catastrophic loss here going up against the other guy and again I suppose if you introduce logic and remove emotion that is pretty much what will happen. He reckons I should rather see if she introduces me to her friends, which I feel will be unlikely.

Good advice from your friend. As I mentioned before, if you sense that she's trying to create emotional distance between the two of you, the best thing you can do is to try and create emotional distance yourself to let her see how unfazed you are by the whole thing. Wait until you have some concrete reason to think she might have some interest (like introducing you to her friends) before you go and make an attempt. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The reality is for me I'd rather orbit an ideal than date someone who does not meet my ideal. Which will get me slammed here so I am bracing myself for the comments which are sure to follow.

It sounds good to you now, but after a time you'll just grow bitter with it. And really, if you do become an "orbiter" who's fixated on her, you'll never be with her because she'll never respect you in that way. Ironically, doing your own thing, having your own dating life independent of her, having your own achievements and successes is a much clearer path towards her admiration. So don't be seduced by the little bit of joy you get just by hanging around her all the time. If you forego that you'll give yourself a much better chance at what you actually want. Occasionally tell her you can't hang out because you're busy. Don't jump at every opportunity to be with her. Let her know about other people you date/see, etc. Her perception of you will change for the better and eventually once she recognizes your independence and value (yes I'm aware this may be sounding like some PUA crap but there is some validity to this aspect, in my opinion) she may even miss you, feel bad that you aren't around more, maybe even start to desire you. That's just how it works in my experience. I used to see a girl who'd just gotten out of a long term relationship, after we spent a ton of time together she thought it'd be best to dial it back and just "be friends," yet the second she saw me even talk to another girl at a bar she got into a jealous fit and was suddenly singing a different tune. Not that you do that sort of thing to intentionally play with someone's emotions, but you can't sit around waiting for something that may never happen. The change in someone's emotions when you don't can just be a surprisingly advantageous consequence.