Can this work

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Most people don't choose their friends based on their looks, because it is usually irrelevant.
Sure no-one really wants to go out and about with a dishevelled mess of a person, but if they are highly intelligent, or have a great personality or are fun, then who really cares?
I don't believe there are NO other women, apart from this IG model that could fill this friend role.
ZA is an orbiter here, and that is not a great place to be.
Unrequited love always hurts and needs to be avoided if at all possible...

What do you think a better place would be, sitting on dating sites, trying to match with people I find attractive and only have those I find unattractive match with me? Mentally there is nothing good about that situation, been there done that and have the T shirt. 

See, with respect, I do care. There needs to be a balance, I once went out with someone who had a great personality but the idea of sleeping with her was completely unattractive in the extreme. I want someone attractive overall.

Nevertheless you and my best friend both agree I have little to no chance here so that's a good thing because maybe I can prove you both wrong.  I cannot tell you how much better I feel with no dating sites and none of that nonsense anymore. Its good to have someone actually ask how I am doing, share their news, their life. 

[elaine567]

You have pulled off the motorway into a safe service station, but if you want to get to your destination then sitting in a service station will not get you anywhere...
You may feel better not having to deal with the cut and thrust of motorway driving but unless you get out there onto the actual road, then you are just wasting time.

57 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

you and my best friend both agree I have little to no chance here so that's a good thing because maybe I can prove you both wrong. 

Taking on "impossible" challenges has got to you into this mess in the first place...
Is she still "dating" the other guy?

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

You have pulled off the motorway into a safe service station, but if you want to get to your destination then sitting in a service station will not get you anywhere...
You may feel better not having to deal with the cut and thrust of motorway driving but unless you get out there onto the actual road, then you are just wasting time.

Taking on "impossible" challenges has got to you into this mess in the first place...
Is she still "dating" the other guy?

Its hardly a mess. Its actually very pleasant indeed far more so than any interactions I have had off dating sites, in fact there is no comparison. I have been on the highway to nowhere so frankly this is far better than going through that again. Dating has never been time well spent anyway so arguably yes I have wasted huge amounts of time to get precisely nowhere at all. 

The question I ask myself is, if someone is actually happy to spend hours with me, engages with me, that's very indicative of the very poor dates I have had any by extension the people I have been meeting and the irony is I never found any of them attractive physically but MOSTLY because there was very poor levels of interaction. She is not dating anyone actually, saw one or two guys but ironically spent more time with me than either of them.

I might get nowhere, I am accepting of that possibility but I am not giving up until I have actually tried. Its not like I have any other prospects.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I might get nowhere, I am accepting of that possibility but I am not giving up until I have actually tried. Its not like I have any other prospects.

You’ll definitely not get anywhere if you refuse to take a risk. From this it sounds like you ideally would like this to turn into a romance. How do you ideally see that playing out if you never let her know you’re interested in dating her instead of just being friends?

[dramafreezone]

11 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

With respect a lot of this is be polite. Not much one can do with the looks one is born with besides be the fittest version of oneself and I am quite fit. Actually she does not spend hours making herself up before she goes out, she simply goes out. I am unattractive because I refuse to conform to the social norms here of drinking, partying and house parties. Or for that matter going to church. I was once refused a date because I did not go to church which in hindsight might have been a blessing.

 

There are plenty of men who are average looking, don't drink, don't party and get more interest from women than they could ever possibly entertain.

I'm not going to sit here and lie and say that looks don't matter, or some women arent attracted to those types that party and drink or whatever you think matters to them.  What I'm saying is that there are a lot of women that don't care about any of that. 

Men that do very well with women mostly have come to grips with their insecurities and have accepted them.  They know that all women won't like them, but they also know that some will if they just keep looking.  That's really the only difference beetween them and you.

[Trail Blazer]

18 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

With respect a lot of this is be polite. Not much one can do with the looks one is born with besides be the fittest version of oneself and I am quite fit. Actually she does not spend hours making herself up before she goes out, she simply goes out. I am unattractive because I refuse to conform to the social norms here of drinking, partying and house parties. Or for that matter going to church. I was once refused a date because I did not go to church which in hindsight might have been a blessing.

 

Life for adults in their late-30s is not one big frat party.  I know things in South Africa might be culturally different from other western places, but people are still people everywhere in the world.

Surely women with some class aren't all partying, drinking and the like until all hours?  Rarely people have the time, energy or even the funds to do that em masse.

I just find it almost unfathomable that you believe your lack of desire live a playboy lifestyle is your biggest barrier to finding love.  I think it's your fixed mindset, just personally.

[dramafreezone]

34 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Life for adults in their late-30s is not one big frat party.  I know things in South Africa might be culturally different from other western places, but people are still people everywhere in the world.

Surely women with some class aren't all partying, drinking and the like until all hours?  Rarely people have the time, energy or even the funds to do that em masse.

I just find it almost unfathomable that you believe your lack of desire live a playboy lifestyle is your biggest barrier to finding love.  I think it's your fixed mindset, just personally.

He exclusively chases women who are unavailable and then thinks he's a piece of crap because they don't want him.

He sees the shine but he doesn't see the grind so to speak.  He sees those successes those guys have but he doesn't see that he had to get 10 numbers to get one woman to call him back.  Those guys get rejected too but they don't take it personally.  They cast a wide net and know that it's just a numbers game.

Edited March 11, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Trail Blazer]

26 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

He exclusively chases women who are unavailable and then thinks he's a piece of crap because they don't want him.

He sees the shine but he doesn't see the grind so to speak.  He sees those successes those guys have but he doesn't see that he had to get 10 numbers to get one woman to call him back.  Those guys get rejected too but they don't take it personally.  They cast a wide net and know that it's just a numbers game.

I'd love to see the women he rejects and the women he chases and is rejected by, just to see if there's some middle ground he's overlooking.

@ZA Dater insists that he only ever attracts interest from either large, ugly, poor or socially unfit women.  Just how much the women he rejects fit this criteria, I'd love to know.

 

[Weezy1973]

7 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'd love to see the women he rejects and the women he chases and is rejected by, just to see if there's some middle ground he's overlooking.

@ZA Dater insists that he only ever attracts interest from either large, ugly, poor or socially unfit women.  Just how much the women he rejects fit this criteria, I'd love to know.

 

He has admitted to having the odd match that he’s found attractive, but those tend not to turn into dates. And he has had a few dates with women he’s found physically attractive, but didn’t like their personality upon meeting.

 

But what you said about “middle ground” is key. @ZA Dater is very black and white in this area. He doesn’t allow for the possibility of meeting someone of neutral attractiveness to grow into more attraction with time. Basically he needs to be “wowed” right from the start. 
 

I suspect this is rooted in his low self-worth. He deems the types of women that are attracted to “Chads” to be the ideal women of high value to “get” and only if he can get one of these women, would he then feel worthy of being loved. Of course it doesn’t work that way. But he doesn’t know that because he has no experience...

[ZA Dater]

15 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

He has admitted to having the odd match that he’s found attractive, but those tend not to turn into dates. And he has had a few dates with women he’s found physically attractive, but didn’t like their personality upon meeting.

 

But what you said about “middle ground” is key. @ZA Dater is very black and white in this area. He doesn’t allow for the possibility of meeting someone of neutral attractiveness to grow into more attraction with time. Basically he needs to be “wowed” right from the start. 
 

I suspect this is rooted in his low self-worth. He deems the types of women that are attracted to “Chads” to be the ideal women of high value to “get” and only if he can get one of these women, would he then feel worthy of being loved. Of course it doesn’t work that way. But he doesn’t know that because he has no experience...

If I were ever granted the same benefit of the doubt I would be more inclined to give that benefit of the doubt, instead I am thrown away like trash so no on principle alone I wont ever do that. Is someone is overweight there absolutely nothing which will make me find them physical attractive, nothing at all. 

I have said it before, attraction for me is overall, sure a pretty face helps hugely but how someone interacts must be attractive too and their manner must be attractive. Not really low self worth, people would not chase those people if they were not deemed to be attractive, that is really what it boils down to. 

Sure, I could find a very unattractive lady to love me, that would not be difficult at all but about as pointless as going to the beach wearing an Armani suit. 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'd love to see the women he rejects and the women he chases and is rejected by, just to see if there's some middle ground he's overlooking.

@ZA Dater insists that he only ever attracts interest from either large, ugly, poor or socially unfit women.  Just how much the women he rejects fit this criteria, I'd love to know.

 

That is a loaded question because I do not even bother meeting with OLD matches when I was on OLD because never mind the lack of physical attraction there was a total lack of mental attraction too. The problem is very simple in a way, its the way I think and the values I have. Guys go on dates to get laid, I go on dates to try and actually get to know the person so my investment is from that point of view, women expect me to fall all over them, sure but few actually give me any reason to. 

Here I have a situation I get to spend lots of time with someone I enjoy spending time with, who engages me in conversation, laughs and smiles and even mundane things become nice things to do. Compare that to sitting on a date with someone who take any interest whatsoever and asks me nothing and shares little. Which one would you rather do? Sorry to say but people who go on dates have 5 other options so they are not going to bother, as guys we need to sell like a used car sales man at month end? Why and to what end? 

Added to which when I spend time with her I can just be me and I feel a certain freedom doing that, versus sitting on a date knowing I need to sell the heck out of myself because she has 5 other options lined up, especially because everything that is good about me has a market value of zero on the dating market. I actually stopped chasing people after the K debacle, this lady I am not really chasing because my chances are very slim at best but what I do is convey I don enjoy spending time with her. 

You are quite correct those are the only people that find me attractive, I eventually just gave up on OLD because it was the same sort of people every single time. Wish I would actually show you the type of people I do find attractive. 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

He exclusively chases women who are unavailable and then thinks he's a piece of crap because they don't want him.

He sees the shine but he doesn't see the grind so to speak.  He sees those successes those guys have but he doesn't see that he had to get 10 numbers to get one woman to call him back.  Those guys get rejected too but they don't take it personally.  They cast a wide net and know that it's just a numbers game.

Oh yeah I tried this numbers game story via OLD for 10 years and went out with anyone irrespective how attractive I found them. There is one big issue with the above, yes they get rejected but find me one who at 36 has had NO success at all. 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Life for adults in their late-30s is not one big frat party.  I know things in South Africa might be culturally different from other western places, but people are still people everywhere in the world.

Surely women with some class aren't all partying, drinking and the like until all hours?  Rarely people have the time, energy or even the funds to do that em masse.

I just find it almost unfathomable that you believe your lack of desire live a playboy lifestyle is your biggest barrier to finding love.  I think it's your fixed mindset, just personally.

Well for some here it is exactly that. The more cash you have to throw around, the more prestige the better your chances and not forgetting good looks and FUN. Many find the allure of fun and a lifestyle greater than what they can experience normally as a significant point of attraction. I can be the nicest most genuine, most attentive, most honest, most kind, best mannered but that athletic blond is never going to pick me over the guy who arrives in the Porsche, has fancy friends, goes to amazing events, is fun. They do not need the funds as there is always some guy happy to pick up the tab. 

What typically happens here and probably most places, miss blond will date Porsche guy who really just sees her as arm candy and a source of physical gratification, she sees him as security and a step up to a different life and a different set of circumstances but the reality is it never really lasts and 5 years later miss blond is back on the market, now with kids and a ton of baggage. I have spent 15 odd years going in and out of this sort of lifestyle so I know it well and I have observed it well.

I was raised to be a good person but good only goes so far when it comes to dating and does not really take you very far at all. It does make me sleep better at night though knowing  I do not have to be someone I am not.

Effectively what I am trying to do this time is perhaps have one more try to prove that perhaps being a good person does actually count for something, being attentive, thoughtful and kind does actually mean something. I realized long ago I cant compete with the playboy and will always get beaten by them but maybe just once in a while I can get appreciated for being the person I am and just get to spend some time with people I enjoy spending time with. Even my friend conceded, after telling me she was a bad idea that after seeing us interact "she would be perfect for you but". The but of course being I am once again competing with the playboy in the Porsche and everything that goes along with that. 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

There are plenty of men who are average looking, don't drink, don't party and get more interest from women than they could ever possibly entertain.

I'm not going to sit here and lie and say that looks don't matter, or some women arent attracted to those types that party and drink or whatever you think matters to them.  What I'm saying is that there are a lot of women that don't care about any of that. 

Men that do very well with women mostly have come to grips with their insecurities and have accepted them.  They know that all women won't like them, but they also know that some will if they just keep looking.  That's really the only difference beetween them and you.

No idea where you are in the world but that is definitely not the case for me here or anyone else "normal" I know. I can go out and get absolutely zero interest whatsoever. Sure, there are women who don't care about that but MANY do. 

I have spent 20 years looking and found zero success so to say keep looking, well keep looking till when exactly? At this point I'd rather have something that meets 90% of what I actually want than keep trawling on endless dating sites with the same issues I always have.  At some point a sense of "well this is the best I can do" has to kick in. If the best I can do is never experience any intimacy at all but experience a good friendship then I guess I need to live with that. 

The reality is there is a tiny percentage of people I find attractive and there is an even smaller percentage of people who will get me so this was always going to be impossible, add inexperience and other issues and its like climbing Everest without oxygen and a rope. My fundamental belief is I have qualities which do have value but just not to most people. I mean can you imagine the horror of an awkward kiss, someone finding out that at 36 I have no experience, its got to the point where I'd rather just avoid having to get into those situations to begin with.  People are always less accepting of things which go against so called set norms.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’ll definitely not get anywhere if you refuse to take a risk. From this it sounds like you ideally would like this to turn into a romance. How do you ideally see that playing out if you never let her know you’re interested in dating her instead of just being friends?

I debate this question daily. Even I have to concede my chances are next to zero UNLESS she actually values the person I am over and above what are clearly obvious issues and values me above the line of guys she has the choice of, all of which fall into the category of guys I have ALWAYS lost out to. Would be being so different to them, give me an advantage, I do not know. I suspect if I had to express any overt interest she'd then need to reject me which she would not really enjoy and effectively I'd then be at a total loss situation whereas now I sort of have what I have missed and wanted for 20 odd years. She knows my dating history well, we spent 4 hours talking about each others history so its not like she does not know all that's not so good and she can know doubt maybe join the dots on everything else.

I tend to express interest in people by spending lots of time with them, getting to know them, that is how I always wanted things to work. Unusually here I actually have managed to spend lots of time with her so that is partly why for once I feel I have been able to show myself off the best from a quality point of view. 

I am sort of in the middle of no mans land, between do not and do, again zero experience of actually the "doing". 

Not very easy at all.

[5x5]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The problem is very simple in a way, its the way I think and the values I have. Guys go on dates to get laid, I go on dates to try and actually get to know the person

Women go on dates to get laid as well.

With extremely rare exception (like you), most people date in order to find people to have sex with.

If you have no interest in getting laid yourself, then you would do well to avoid dating to stop wasting other peoples time.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, 5x5 said:

Women go on dates to get laid as well.

With extremely rare exception (like you), most people date in order to find people to have sex with.

If you have no interest in getting laid yourself, then you would do well to avoid dating to stop wasting other peoples time.

I'd happily get laid on date 5 or 6 after at least getting to know the person. 

[basil67]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The problem is very simple in a way, its the way I think and the values I have. Guys go on dates to get laid, I go on dates to try and actually get to know the person

<snip>

Well for some here it is exactly that. The more cash you have to throw around, the more prestige the better your chances and not forgetting good looks and FUN. Many find the allure of fun and a lifestyle greater than what they can experience normally as a significant point of attraction. I can be the nicest most genuine, most attentive, most honest, most kind, best mannered but that athletic blond is never going to pick me over the guy who arrives in the Porsche, has fancy friends, goes to amazing events, is fun. They do not need the funds as there is always some guy happy to pick up the tab. 

In my experience, men who want relationships seek both to get laid AND to get to know the person.  These two things aren't mutually exclusive.    Also, as a woman who's only ever wanted relationships, there's no way I would have waited ~6 dates for sex.   

"I can be the nicest most genuine, most attentive, most honest, most kind, best mannered...."  ZA, it would take far less than a Porsche and the lifestyle you mentioned above for you to be left behind.   What you state above is the baseline for a good partner.   For me, this is the essential stuff - but there also needs to be fun and connection and raw sexual attraction.  

Further, about the women who are attracted to the playboys - as someone said earlier, we have to be what we want to attract.  Don't be under the illusion that the playboy will be attracted to an "athletic blond" if that blonde is a reserved type who loves quiet nights in with her love.   Rather, he's going to seek someone who fits in well with his lifestyle   Also, would you really be attracted to a woman who lives life in the fast lane with the 'beautiful people'?   What would you have in common with her?   Personally, I'd run a mile from that lifestyle....

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by basil67
grammar

[Weezy1973]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am sort of in the middle of no mans land, between do not and do, again zero experience of actually the "doing". 

Not very easy at all.

And I suspect you will choose “do not”. You’re likely waiting for an absolute unmistakable signal from her that she’s attracted to you and would like to start dating. That’s very, very unlikely to happen. So if you want to escalate things, you’ll have to take the risk. And yes the risk means potentially losing her as a friend

 

But let’s face it, as nice as I’m sure these days have been, you really are interested in more. And the main loss wouldn’t be the friendship, but it would be the fantasy of the possibility. This is the only reason why you refuse to be just friends with women you’re not attracted to. It’s really the fantasy you want to hold onto. You can have romantic thoughts without having to actually take a risk. 

[elaine567]

Trouble is if you spend too long in the "friendzone", when you do make your move, she will laugh or she will go ugh! as she doesn't see you in that way, or if she did then she will no longer do so if she has got fed up of waiting, or she sees you now as a brother...
Escalate is such a unromantic term, but you do need to set the stage, prepare the ground, show you are romantically interested by getting close and piquing her sexual interest in you. Things need to progress in relationships, if you remain as her "nice friend" for too long, then you are likely to stay there. 
 

[dramafreezone]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd happily get laid on date 5 or 6 after at least getting to know the person. 

So you state you're only physically attracted to an extremely small percentage of women and no other women will do it for you, but then you want to just wait and not act on the physical attraction, but get to know them?  Do you see the irony here?

[Trail Blazer]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well for some here it is exactly that. The more cash you have to throw around, the more prestige the better your chances and not forgetting good looks and FUN. Many find the allure of fun and a lifestyle greater than what they can experience normally as a significant point of attraction. I can be the nicest most genuine, most attentive, most honest, most kind, best mannered but that athletic blond is never going to pick me over the guy who arrives in the Porsche, has fancy friends, goes to amazing events, is fun. They do not need the funds as there is always some guy happy to pick up the tab. 

What typically happens here and probably most places, miss blond will date Porsche guy who really just sees her as arm candy and a source of physical gratification, she sees him as security and a step up to a different life and a different set of circumstances but the reality is it never really lasts and 5 years later miss blond is back on the market, now with kids and a ton of baggage. I have spent 15 odd years going in and out of this sort of lifestyle so I know it well and I have observed it well.

I was raised to be a good person but good only goes so far when it comes to dating and does not really take you very far at all. It does make me sleep better at night though knowing  I do not have to be someone I am not.

Effectively what I am trying to do this time is perhaps have one more try to prove that perhaps being a good person does actually count for something, being attentive, thoughtful and kind does actually mean something. I realized long ago I cant compete with the playboy and will always get beaten by them but maybe just once in a while I can get appreciated for being the person I am and just get to spend some time with people I enjoy spending time with. Even my friend conceded, after telling me she was a bad idea that after seeing us interact "she would be perfect for you but". The but of course being I am once again competing with the playboy in the Porsche and everything that goes along with that. 

Dude, there's rich guys in every city who, for no reason other than their wealth, have beautiful women hanging off them.  I don't even see why this is relevant.

You do know that every day people date people they're attracted to, right?  You do realize that not every athletic blond is someone who wishes to live like a socialite?

You're entirely off by thinking that "just being a good person" is everything a woman should want, and going on some mission to try and prove it is delusional.

I don't drive a Porsche, but I do drive a ten-year-old Ford sedan.  I don't party and drink often, but I do enjoy a quality beer or red wine at and nice establishment in town on the odd occasion.

My point is that most people are normal and enjoy normal things.  Most women enjoy regular lifestyles and just want to have someone who is reliable, dependable and trustworthy.

However, there needs to be the initial spark, the sexual attraction, the something... that will kick it all off.  You're frustrated that you haven't succeeded in that regards, I get it.  But you're reaching, here, and it's futile.

Just being nice won't cut it, my friend.  Driving a Porsche and living like Tom Ellis' character on Netflix's hit show Lucifer will certainly generate interest, but it, too, will not build upon a healthy and organic foundation of the companionahip you seek.

Take a look around and see all the normal guys who have beautiful partners.  Take a look and observe what those beautiful partners want in their lives.  I refuse to believe that all the hot ladies of Cape Town are out partying every night,  or every weekend even.

[basil67]

@ZA Dater Back to the socialites who hang out with rich playboys, is this the kind of woman you're seeking?   Serious question.

Edited March 12, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@ZA Dater Back to the socialites who hang out with rich playboys, is this the kind of woman you're seeking?   Serious question.

Afraid to say years and years of trying suggest that yes most seem to want that. The allure of a fun lifestyle seems undiminished for many. 

I have never found, even on OLD the middle ground, probably because I have zero attraction to most people for whatever reason. Pre covid I'd go out on my own and all I'd see was the same type of guys winning, never guys like me. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

So you state you're only physically attracted to an extremely small percentage of women and no other women will do it for you, but then you want to just wait and not act on the physical attraction, but get to know them?  Do you see the irony here?

No irony at all because I know they are never physically attracted to me and there is not much I can do about that. Basically the best I can hope for is friends because at the age of 36 I can categorically tell you I have never ever experienced mutual attraction but apparently this is quite normal.