Can this work

[dramafreezone]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

No irony at all because I know they are never physically attracted to me and there is not much I can do about that. Basically the best I can hope for is friends because at the age of 36 I can categorically tell you I have never ever experienced mutual attraction but apparently this is quite normal.

So I don't understand, if you know mutual attraction will not be there, thus sex is not a possibility then why do you care if you're physically attracted to them?

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Trouble is if you spend too long in the "friendzone", when you do make your move, she will laugh or she will go ugh! as she doesn't see you in that way, or if she did then she will no longer do so if she has got fed up of waiting, or she sees you now as a brother...
Escalate is such a unromantic term, but you do need to set the stage, prepare the ground, show you are romantically interested by getting close and piquing her sexual interest in you. Things need to progress in relationships, if you remain as her "nice friend" for too long, then you are likely to stay there. 
 

Again, they never see me that way. So I don't really get to choose, friends is usually the absolute best I can do. In any case I wouldn't know how to escalate anything. I just have zero sexual attraction to anyone.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, dramafreezone said:

So I don't understand, if you know mutual attraction will not be there, thus sex is not a possibility then why do you care if you're physically attracted to them?

Because of some hope on my part I'd become attractive over time.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

In my experience, men who want relationships seek both to get laid AND to get to know the person.  These two things aren't mutually exclusive.    Also, as a woman who's only ever wanted relationships, there's no way I would have waited ~6 dates for sex.   

"I can be the nicest most genuine, most attentive, most honest, most kind, best mannered...."  ZA, it would take far less than a Porsche and the lifestyle you mentioned above for you to be left behind.   What you state above is the baseline for a good partner.   For me, this is the essential stuff - but there also needs to be fun and connection and raw sexual attraction.  

Further, about the women who are attracted to the playboys - as someone said earlier, we have to be what we want to attract.  Don't be under the illusion that the playboy will be attracted to an "athletic blond" if that blonde is a reserved type who loves quiet nights in with her love.   Rather, he's going to seek someone who fits in well with his lifestyle   Also, would you really be attracted to a woman who lives life in the fast lane with the 'beautiful people'?   What would you have in common with her?   Personally, I'd run a mile from that lifestyle....

 

The playboy does not care if the blond is reserved or not just so long as he can find sexual gratification. She gets caught up on all the lovely attention she gets and round this cycle goes, seen it often enough. 

Reality is everyone I meet likes this lifestyle, I have spent over a decade trying to compete with this and just cannot, it's a total loss every single time. 

 

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Dude, there's rich guys in every city who, for no reason other than their wealth, have beautiful women hanging off them.  I don't even see why this is relevant.

You do know that every day people date people they're attracted to, right?  You do realize that not every athletic blond is someone who wishes to live like a socialite?

You're entirely off by thinking that "just being a good person" is everything a woman should want, and going on some mission to try and prove it is delusional.

I don't drive a Porsche, but I do drive a ten-year-old Ford sedan.  I don't party and drink often, but I do enjoy a quality beer or red wine at and nice establishment in town on the odd occasion.

My point is that most people are normal and enjoy normal things.  Most women enjoy regular lifestyles and just want to have someone who is reliable, dependable and trustworthy.

However, there needs to be the initial spark, the sexual attraction, the something... that will kick it all off.  You're frustrated that you haven't succeeded in that regards, I get it.  But you're reaching, here, and it's futile.

Just being nice won't cut it, my friend.  Driving a Porsche and living like Tom Ellis' character on Netflix's hit show Lucifer will certainly generate interest, but it, too, will not build upon a healthy and organic foundation of the companionahip you seek.

Take a look around and see all the normal guys who have beautiful partners.  Take a look and observe what those beautiful partners want in their lives.  I refuse to believe that all the hot ladies of Cape Town are out partying every night,  or every weekend even.

Again where are these supposedly normal guys with beautiful partners? I don't see them at all. Really I do not. 

There is nothing about me that generates any interest barring from people who see me as a step up to an apparently "better" life, those fall over themselves in OLD but hold zero interest to me at all. That's just the reality of it and why anything I try will always fail.

Not once have I ever met anyone who valued reliable and dependable who I actually found attractive, those who do are almost always older single mothers who for a multitude of reasons hold zero attraction to me.

Offer that athletic blond me or the fun playboy and he wins 9 times out of 10. Been there done that got the kick in the face.

[dramafreezone]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again where are these supposedly normal guys with beautiful partners? I don't see them at all. Really I do not. 

There is nothing about me that generates any interest barring from people who see me as a step up to an apparently "better" life, those fall over themselves in OLD but hold zero interest to me at all. That's just the reality of it and why anything I try will always fail.

Not once have I ever met anyone who valued reliable and dependable who I actually found attractive, those who do are almost always older single mothers who for a multitude of reasons hold zero attraction to me.

Offer that athletic blond me or the fun playboy and he wins 9 times out of 10. Been there done that got the kick in the face.

Well look, you have to have something going for you if you want these extremely beautiful women that you pine after.  If you're average looking you have to be extraordinary somewhere else.  You have to either have extreme confidence, a physically appealing body, extreme competitiveness, or a lot of money.  Even still, not every woman is attracted to the same things, nor is any of those enough to keep a woman attracted.

But beng a good guy is not one of those qualities that does anything for sexual attraction.  It does a lot for her likiing you as a friend. but does nothing to arouse her sexually.  What's the purpose of sex anyway?  Is it to have a good time?  Is it to share with someone we care about?  No, essentially sex is meant to reproduce more humans.  You're not put here on earth to talk about your feelings and get to know someone.

Women instinctually want to reproduce with men who have the best genes to pass on to her potential children.  What type of genes do you think best serve the human race going forward?  I'll tell you, it's those that come from physically strong men, men with ambition, and men with confidence who have the ability to lead others.  All of those qualities are in service of the the continued existence of the human race.  Being nice, talking about feeling does not serve a purpose for human survival.

Edited March 12, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

And I suspect you will choose “do not”. You’re likely waiting for an absolute unmistakable signal from her that she’s attracted to you and would like to start dating. That’s very, very unlikely to happen. So if you want to escalate things, you’ll have to take the risk. And yes the risk means potentially losing her as a friend

 

But let’s face it, as nice as I’m sure these days have been, you really are interested in more. And the main loss wouldn’t be the friendship, but it would be the fantasy of the possibility. This is the only reason why you refuse to be just friends with women you’re not attracted to. It’s really the fantasy you want to hold onto. You can have romantic thoughts without having to actually take a risk. 

You aren't wrong here. I'd rather hang onto an idea than have nothing at all. Believe me having nothing at all is a really horrible experience, the sense of being alone with no prospect is extremely unpleasant. Worse yet combine that with terrible OLD matches and it just becomes miserable central.

At least now I have 90% of what I like and none of that. How much I am willing to risk, well you can see not really. Interested in more and capable of getting more are very different things. 

I'll probably go some middle of the road way where I make sure rejection won't be too bad and the friendship doesn't get risked too much. My friend reckons it's impossible for me to compete with the other guys, while in the same breath telling me she might be interested in him. If I accepted impossible I'd probably have given up on many thing's years ago.

The reality here is maybe this is the best I can do, I don't know but it is night and day better than anything else I have experienced in 20 odd years. I need to just keep positive and not let myself get irritated by the peripheral nonsense.

Again I'd rather just believe in an unlikely possibility than sit with an utterly hopeless lonely "I am never good enough" reality.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, dramafreezone said:

Well look, you have to have something going for you if you want these extremely beautiful women that you pine after.  If you're average looking you have to be extraordinary somewhere else.  You have to either have extreme confidence, a physically appealing body, or a lot of money.  Even still, not every woman is attracted to the same things, nor is any of those enough to keep a woman attracted.

But beng a good guy is not one of those qualities that does anything for sexual attraction.  It does a lot for her likiing you as a friend. but does nothing to arouse her sexually.  What's the purpose of sex anyway?  Is it to have a good time?  Is it to share with someone we care about?  No, essentially sex is meant to reproduce more humans.  You're not put here on earth to talk about your feelings and get to know someone.

Women instinctually want to reproduce with men who have the best genes to pass on to her potential children.  What type of genes do you think best serve the human race going forward?  I'll tell you, it's those that come from physically strong men, men with ambition, and men with confidence who have the ability to lead others.  All of those qualities are in service of the the continued existence of the human race.  Being nice, talking about feeling does not serve a purpose for human survival.

Thanks best I just sit in a corner and give up as there is apparently nothing about me which has any value. Oh well at least I have good friend qualities.

Hi my name is J, I'll be your friend the dependable guy your bf is not, the honest guy your bf is not but it's cool sleep with him, spend time with me. Quite a selling pitch. 

I'll just have to find a way to accept this I suppose.

 

 

[dramafreezone]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks best I just sit in a corner and give up as there is apparently nothing about me which has any value. Oh well at least I have good friend qualities.

Hi my name is J, I'll be your friend the dependable guy your bf is not, the honest guy your bf is not but it's cool sleep with him, spend time with me. Quite a selling pitch. 

I'll just have to find a way to accept this I suppose.

 

 

I don't believe that you don't have any value.  Some of those qualities are in you, you've just buried them with a lot of self-limiting beliefs, and they've atrophied from lack of use.  You weren't born like this.

You, not anyone else, but you have to find these qualities and cultivate them, and re-program youself.   As much as you diminish yourself, at the same time you're taking no responsiblity.  You're just saying you were dealt a bad hand in life, with your personality, with what women like, with where you live, in your mind all of this is their fault and there's nothing you can do about it. 

You have to start to take some responsibility for your life.  That's the only way you can begin to remedy it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Trail Blazer]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again where are these supposedly normal guys with beautiful partners? I don't see them at all. Really I do not. 

There is nothing about me that generates any interest barring from people who see me as a step up to an apparently "better" life, those fall over themselves in OLD but hold zero interest to me at all. That's just the reality of it and why anything I try will always fail.

Not once have I ever met anyone who valued reliable and dependable who I actually found attractive, those who do are almost always older single mothers who for a multitude of reasons hold zero attraction to me.

Offer that athletic blond me or the fun playboy and he wins 9 times out of 10. Been there done that got the kick in the face.

You're looking at one, buddy!  I'm every bit as normal as anyone else out there.  I don't exist in some vacuum of luxury, driving exotic sports cars and attending lavish events.

My girlfriend values reliable and dependable and she isn't a single mother.  Quite the contrary, as I am the single father, whilst she holds a doctorate in veterinary medicine.

I don't get why you feel like you're always competing with playboys.  Why?  What sort of circles do you orbit if they're your only competition?

Just because most women would go for a fun playboy over you doesn't mean they want a fun playboy.  It means they don't want you.  Why do you think that is?

The athletic blond might pick a playboy over you.  You know what, though?  She might also pick Jon the Carpenter, Matt the Electrician, or James the logistics Co-Ordinator over you, too.

What you need to work out is how to appeal to the women that you seek.  If the only women you seek are the ones who want playboys in flash cars, then it's your choice in women that's the problem.

Get rich or choose different women.  They are your only two choices in the matter.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

I don't believe that you don't have any value.  Some of those qualities are in you, you've just buried them with a lot of self-limiting beliefs, and they've atrophied from lack of use.  You weren't born like this.

You, not anyone else, but you have to find these qualities and cultivate them, and re-program youself.   As much as you diminish yourself, at the same time you're taking no responsiblity.  You're just saying you were dealt a bad hand in life, with your personality, with what women like, with where you live, in your mind all of this is their fault and there's nothing you can do about it. 

You have to start to take some responsibility for your life.  That's the only way you can begin to remedy it.

There isn't anything I can do about it but thanks anyway. The best version of me isn't even good enough apparently so why bother at all. Accept friends is the best I can do and avoid having to explain anything more.

Responsibility for what? Being the best version of me, cool ok. For not fitting in, cool ok.

Beliefs are a function of experience.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

You're looking at one, buddy!  I'm every bit as normal as anyone else out there.  I don't exist in some vacuum of luxury, driving exotic sports cars and attending lavish events.

My girlfriend values reliable and dependable and she isn't a single mother.  Quite the contrary, as I am the single father, whilst she holds a doctorate in veterinary medicine.

I don't get why you feel like you're always competing with playboys.  Why?  What sort of circles do you orbit if they're your only competition?

Just because most women would go for a fun playboy over you doesn't mean they want a fun playboy.  It means they don't want you.  Why do you think that is?

The athletic blond might pick a playboy over you.  You know what, though?  She might also pick Jon the Carpenter, Matt the Electrician, or James the logistics Co-Ordinator over you, too.

What you need to work out is how to appeal to the women that you seek.  If the only women you seek are the ones who want playboys in flash cars, then it's your choice in women that's the problem.

Get rich or choose different women.  They are your only two choices in the matter.

Or just give up and be the friend. The only appeal I have is being kind, thoughtful and caring and maybe interesting, not exactly a very long list of attributes. All of which are a tough sell, the fact I managed to spend 6 days with someone is a miracle because I am usually thrown to the curb after one meet up.

The fact I can sit and talk about anything quite openly is a win for a very shy reserved guy. So there must be some good rise I suspect I'd have been given the cold shoulder ages ago. There must be something that she shares what's going on in her life.

Nobody here seems to understand I have never had any of this before, it's normal to all of you, it's not to me. I have been trying to find this forever. 

Can't say I see miss Blond with the plumber but I do see her with a guy 20 years older.

They don't want me because I have nothing they want, I am just not good enough, that's the bottom line really. Sure that hurt's but again who wants a 36yo guy with no experience, nobody so I guess that's my own fault.

The guys they land up with are no better than me but they are more experienced than me, more confident than me, more conventional than me and constant rejection has scarred me, it's taken all confidence away and I make no secret of that. 

Again if the best I can do is a few idyllic hours where at least I feel like I have everything I want, I can be who I am. Is that really so bad versus going round and round on the dating wheel of ever increasing dispair.

I am.actually going to drop that previous paragraph into a conversation.

 

[Trail Blazer]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Or just give up and be the friend. The only appeal I have is being kind, thoughtful and caring and maybe interesting, not exactly a very long list of attributes. All of which are a tough sell, the fact I managed to spend 6 days with someone is a miracle because I am usually thrown to the curb after one meet up.

The fact I can sit and talk about anything quite openly is a win for a very shy reserved guy. So there must be some good rise I suspect I'd have been given the cold shoulder ages ago. There must be something that she shares what's going on in her life.

Nobody here seems to understand I have never had any of this before, it's normal to all of you, it's not to me. I have been trying to find this forever. 

Can't say I see miss Blond with the plumber but I do see her with a guy 20 years older.

They don't want me because I have nothing they want, I am just not good enough, that's the bottom line really. Sure that hurt's but again who wants a 36yo guy with no experience, nobody so I guess that's my own fault.

The guys they land up with are no better than me but they are more experienced than me, more confident than me, more conventional than me and constant rejection has scarred me, it's taken all confidence away and I make no secret of that. 

Again if the best I can do is a few idyllic hours where at least I feel like I have everything I want, I can be who I am. Is that really so bad versus going round and round on the dating wheel of ever increasing dispair.

I am.actually going to drop that previous paragraph into a conversation.

 

You need some introspection.  You're all over the place with contradictions.  On one hand you think that the Blond wouldn't be with the plumber, and on the other hand you think that the guy those girls you want end up with are no better than you, they're just more experienced.

Firstly, I can tell you that I've been a blue collar worker my whole life.  Most of my buddies are tradesmen of some kind, and they all have wives or girlfriends.  Some of those partners they are with are fine looking women.  In fact, they're attractive, normal looking women with dudes who do normal jobs and live normal lives.

You seem to think that only the most special kind of guy, or a very rich or powerful guy can land a hot girl.  That's untrue.  But it does make it harder, for sure, if you are average looking to go with it.  However, as a male, if you're confident and outgoing, and can pull it off genuinely, women fill flock to you in droves.

Since you have nothing out of the ordinary; not rich, not powerful, not exceedingly handsome - why do you expect to land a top teir woman?  Well, many guys in your situation still punch weigh above their weight by simply having a personality and a can-do attitude.  But I digress...

Since you admit you don't have that outgoing personality, either, what do you think is reasonable for you to expect with regards to a relationship?  Do you think your standards are too high?  What can you identify that is something you have control over about yourself which might help you be more successful with the ladies you're after?

 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Afraid to say years and years of trying suggest that yes most seem to want that. The allure of a fun lifestyle seems undiminished for many. 

No, I asked if YOU want the socialite who hangs out with the beautiful people.  The socialite who hangs out drinking in fancy bars and fancy yachts with playboys.   

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The playboy does not care if the blond is reserved or not just so long as he can find sexual gratification. She gets caught up on all the lovely attention she gets and round this cycle goes, seen it often enough. 

Reality is everyone I meet likes this lifestyle, I have spent over a decade trying to compete with this and just cannot, it's a total loss every single time. 

The handsome, Porsche owning playboy who has the gift of the gab is going to be hanging out with the IT crowd.  The ones who make the gossip columns in Sunday newspapers.   He will also be surrounded by women of the same calibre because they each have the qualities the other wants.   

And if he was to meet a reserved girl just for sex, where would he meet her?   It's not like he'd ever have to advertise on a dating site.  And because she's not one of them, she's not going to frequent the same venues they do.

I agree with @Trail Blazer.   I know many men who have slim, attractive, articulate wives.  Some of the men are professionals and some of the men are blue collar.  What these guys all have in common are good social skills with both genders, confidence and enjoyment of a good party.  None of them even owns a basic sports car, let alone a fancy European one.  

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

You need some introspection.  You're all over the place with contradictions.  On one hand you think that the Blond wouldn't be with the plumber, and on the other hand you think that the guy those girls you want end up with are no better than you, they're just more experienced.

Firstly, I can tell you that I've been a blue collar worker my whole life.  Most of my buddies are tradesmen of some kind, and they all have wives or girlfriends.  Some of those partners they are with are fine looking women.  In fact, they're attractive, normal looking women with dudes who do normal jobs and live normal lives.

You seem to think that only the most special kind of guy, or a very rich or powerful guy can land a hot girl.  That's untrue.  But it does make it harder, for sure, if you are average looking to go with it.  However, as a male, if you're confident and outgoing, and can pull it off genuinely, women fill flock to you in droves.

Since you have nothing out of the ordinary; not rich, not powerful, not exceedingly handsome - why do you expect to land a top teir woman?  Well, many guys in your situation still punch weigh above their weight by simply having a personality and a can-do attitude.  But I digress...

Since you admit you don't have that outgoing personality, either, what do you think is reasonable for you to expect with regards to a relationship?  Do you think your standards are too high?  What can you identify that is something you have control over about yourself which might help you be more successful with the ladies you're after?

 

Well maybe the fact I don't want to sleep with her in date one but we have already established this isn't an advantage. 

Again I have said this before it seems we live in different worlds. What I am relying on here really is the fact I am so different, try and use that as some sort of selling point z use the fact I have no experience as a selling point, ordinarily this would be a total disaster but maybe not this time because there is some familiarity and she knows the back story.

What she has told me is she is tired of guys who just want one thing, again maybe an advantage for me.

In many respects for me dating is like trying to do a puzzle where the pieces don't quite fit together.

[Trail Blazer]

46 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well maybe the fact I don't want to sleep with her in date one but we have already established this isn't an advantage. 

Again I have said this before it seems we live in different worlds. What I am relying on here really is the fact I am so different, try and use that as some sort of selling point z use the fact I have no experience as a selling point, ordinarily this would be a total disaster but maybe not this time because there is some familiarity and she knows the back story.

What she has told me is she is tired of guys who just want one thing, again maybe an advantage for me.

In many respects for me dating is like trying to do a puzzle where the pieces don't quite fit together.

So, are you going to try and date the Insta model or what?  You flip-flop, bro!  I can't keep up with your MO.

Whatever is going on there... it ain't healthy.  Just establish whether she wants to date you.  If the answer is no, then quit dreaming about it and move on.

Dating isn't a puzzle.  There's no pieces to put together.  You establish attraction; if it's there and mutual, you progress.  If it's not, you move on.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

So, are you going to try and date the Insta model or what?  You flip-flop, bro!  I can't keep up with your MO.

Whatever is going on there... it ain't healthy.  Just establish whether she wants to date you.  If the answer is no, then quit dreaming about it and move on.

Dating isn't a puzzle.  There's no pieces to put together.  You establish attraction; if it's there and mutual, you progress.  If it's not, you move on.

I'll just keep the friendship because at least I know how to do that.

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I'll just keep the friendship because at least I know how to do that.

All well and good until someone comes along who she wants to date, and then you will be left behind because her attention is elsewhere and her new guy will find it weird that you are hanging around. 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

All well and good until someone comes along who she wants to date, and then you will be left behind because her attention is elsewhere and her new guy will find it weird that you are hanging around. 

That's the big negative... however today I get a voice note she misses me. I don't really know to me honest, wish I had better judgement. She misses me and is looking forward to seeing me again...

[ZA Dater]

The issue is how much emotion do I show, how much do I convey in terms of feeling.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

The issue is how much emotion do I show, how much do I convey in terms of feeling.

There isn’t really an answer to this. But, if what you like about her is your ability to be yourself around her, then that should stick now. Do what’s natural. 

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There isn’t really an answer to this. But, if what you like about her is your ability to be yourself around her, then that should stick now. Do what’s natural. 

Yeah I will have to think it over and decide how much I am going to leap. I am starting to think I should take a leap this time, it's very tough I'd like to just say "look I really like spending time around you, can I take you to dinner" but that almost seems to simple.

The part I grapple with here is I haven't had anyone who has spent this amount of time with me before.

[Weezy1973]

45 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd like to just say "look I really like spending time around you, can I take you to dinner" but that almost seems to simple.

It’s fine, but rather ambiguous. Are you taking her out to dinner as a friend or are you taking her on a date? You could ask her (she might get the idea it’s a date, but might not), but after dinner at some point go in for a kiss. That will make your intentions clear, and if she’s interested she’ll reciprocate. And if she isn’t, she’ll turn her cheek / pull away and you’ll have your answer.

[basil67]

Please don't go in for a kiss if the signs that she wants it are absent.   Having to dodge an incoming, unwanted kiss is awkward for all concerned.