Can this work

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Please don't go in for a kiss if the signs that she wants it are absent.   Having to dodge an incoming, unwanted kiss is awkward for all concerned.

But considering @ZA Dater can’t read signs, what’s a better option? He doesn’t know if she’s interested or not. Sure it’s awkward but it’s only a moment in time. Avoiding awkward situations is part of what has led him to this in the first place. Fear. He needs to start taking risks.

[Interstellar]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:22 PM, ZA Dater said:

Or just give up and be the friend. The only appeal I have is being kind, thoughtful and caring and maybe interesting, not exactly a very long list of attributes. All of which are a tough sell, the fact I managed to spend 6 days with someone is a miracle because I am usually thrown to the curb after one meet up.

The fact I can sit and talk about anything quite openly is a win for a very shy reserved guy. So there must be some good rise I suspect I'd have been given the cold shoulder ages ago. There must be something that she shares what's going on in her life.

Nobody here seems to understand I have never had any of this before, it's normal to all of you, it's not to me. I have been trying to find this forever. 

Can't say I see miss Blond with the plumber but I do see her with a guy 20 years older.

 

 

There’s this actress by the name of Elizabeth Taylor, she once married a carpenter. There’s a singer by the name of Cher, at one point she fell madly in love with i think a busboy or worked in a pizzeria. There’s this  playmate, Erika Eleniak and she once fell in love with a guy who’s on a wheelchair and so-so looking...but he cheated on her. 

If you’re the best plumber or carpenter on the block you can snag any one of those beauties. Personality, humor, those develop over time. Just be patient.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Interstellar

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

But considering @ZA Dater can’t read signs, what’s a better option? He doesn’t know if she’s interested or not. Sure it’s awkward but it’s only a moment in time. Avoiding awkward situations is part of what has led him to this in the first place. Fear. He needs to start taking risks.

Fair enough.  Having been in this situation before, I was thinking of this from the woman's perspective.

[chillii]

4 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

But considering @ZA Dater can’t read signs, what’s a better option? He doesn’t know if she’s interested or not. Sure it’s awkward but it’s only a moment in time. Avoiding awkward situations is part of what has led him to this in the first place. Fear. He needs to start taking risks.

Yeah l agree. The friendship will probably go all weird and fizzle if she's not feeling it but personally l'd find out if l was za . Not guaranteed he would lose her friendship anyway even if she isn't feeling that way , it might recover. The other guys may even be a teaser to get a reaction out of him , not sayin it is but women do do that. At any rate , with the way he feels and they get along l'd find out if l was him , what if she could see him as more but she's thinking it's only friends too, he'll never know for sure if he doesn;t give it a nudge.

[elaine567]

IMO you need to ask her out on a proper date. Make your intentions very very clear, no assumptions, no ambiguity...
I know you are basking in the glow of her presence atm, and don't want to ruin it, but how long will that last?
It will last as long as she is getting something out of it, women are pretty good at platonic friendships and managing orbiters, but with no romance or hope on the horizon for you, how long can you stick around waiting for her to go off with some other guy?

If she genuinely  thinks you are just friends and you then try to kiss her "out of the blue" she is likely going to be pretty disappointed and annoyed. 
She has poured her heart out to you as a safe and trustworthy friend, to find you are just like all the other guys, only sneakier...
It is a bad situation, women do not tend to like that. She may reject you out of hand due to the shock... Awkward, embarrassing for both...

The time for action is now IMO.
Ask her out on a proper date.
Tell her, not as friends messing about, but on a proper date and see what her reaction is? 

[Foxhall]

A little bit of self depreciating humour can be good at times,

making the conversation a little more playful,

" How important is sex in a relationship"

"Id never be able for you in bed anyway"

Now with that you have put sex in her mind in a non threatening way,

its a game really, your end goal is the opposite of the image you are portraying,

this is still going well , nothing wrong with a brotherly /sisterly type relationship, but it would be nice to escalate it as you say,

you need to create a little "moment" between the two of you

self depreciating humour is my method

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

IMO you need to ask her out on a proper date. Make your intentions very very clear, no assumptions, no ambiguity...
I know you are basking in the glow of her presence atm, and don't want to ruin it, but how long will that last?
It will last as long as she is getting something out of it, women are pretty good at platonic friendships and managing orbiters, but with no romance or hope on the horizon for you, how long can you stick around waiting for her to go off with some other guy?

If she genuinely  thinks you are just friends and you then try to kiss her "out of the blue" she is likely going to be pretty disappointed and annoyed. 
She has poured her heart out to you as a safe and trustworthy friend, to find you are just like all the other guys, only sneakier...
It is a bad situation, women do not tend to like that. She may reject you out of hand due to the shock... Awkward, embarrassing for both...

The time for action is now IMO.
Ask her out on a proper date.
Tell her, not as friends messing about, but on a proper date and see what her reaction is? 

What I am going to do is see how this weekend away goes and if it goes well I'll then ask her out on a date. Honestly neither of us has much to loose unless she is chasing another guy but that's the chance I have to take.

What I do know is I have put my best foot forward this time, there is absolutely nothing more I could do. I'd like to think ladies are fairy perceptive.

Trying to kiss someone isn't something I am keen to try again unless I am sure the person actually likes me...tried it once and it was a disaster.

I don't think she really gets much out being around me barring the fact I do care, I do listen and I so support. Oh and I am very good with kids.

Honestly this situation is as good as it's ever been for me and I'll have no qualms about telling her that. 

As I say it's just nice

 

[Trail Blazer]

18 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What I am going to do is see how this weekend away goes and if it goes well I'll then ask her out on a date. Honestly neither of us has much to loose unless she is chasing another guy but that's the chance I have to take.

What I do know is I have put my best foot forward this time, there is absolutely nothing more I could do. I'd like to think ladies are fairy perceptive.

Trying to kiss someone isn't something I am keen to try again unless I am sure the person actually likes me...tried it once and it was a disaster.

I don't think she really gets much out being around me barring the fact I do care, I do listen and I so support. Oh and I am very good with kids.

Honestly this situation is as good as it's ever been for me and I'll have no qualms about telling her that. 

As I say it's just nice

 

Ask her out, my friend!  The time has arrived.  Good luck!

[ZA Dater]

Ok well at least I didn't need to make a complete idiot of myself, our latest voice note chat, they guy she saw a few times is flying up to meet her again "he doesn't seem the jealous type, doesn't mind you and I being friends". In my view the guy is so over eager it reeks of desperation, she only left my city last week Tuesday and a week later he is flying up to see her.

At least I know where I stand now. It's just normal I guess as someone said, you can be the best you can and still not be deemed attractive. Such is life, just take it on the chin, look outside, go for a run, try appreciate the essence of life. 

Its just another example of yet another disappointment of which I have many. I am quite a strong guy but I don't really feel it at the moment and I have just re read some of the advice which has made me feel just a little bit better so thanks everyone.

It's very difficult for me to articulate feeling, harder yet still to to talk about but I guess this time as every other time I'll just try bury my feelings and well just pretend I am ok, when I am not. Did I expect a different outcome, well I'd have liked a chance, could I still try, not really worth it in my opinion. I'll spend three days with her at the end of the month and just enjoy it,l because it will be good because inherently it just what I want.

Unfortunately we don't always get what we want and in my case I never get what I want.

I sit and do push up till my arms hurt, maybe I'll feel a bit better.

[elaine567]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

In my view the guy is so over eager it reeks of desperation, she only left my city last week Tuesday and a week later he is flying up to see her.

Not really desperation, it is just what people do when they find someone who they really like.   
A week is a long time in the dating game... he is trying to build a bond and he won't do that by staying away and not seeing her, will he?

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Not really desperation, it is just what people do when they find someone who they really like.   
A week is a long time in the dating game... he is trying to build a bond and he won't do that by staying away and not seeing her, will he?

Should I have done the same?

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Should I have done the same?

Maybe.
It may have clarified her position too, earlier on.
If she was not keen on you showing up, or tried to dissuade you, then you could have deduced she wasn't that interested.
Now, if you suggest it, I guess she will welcome you, as you are "her very good friend"...

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Maybe.
It may have clarified her position too, earlier on.
If she was not keen on you showing up, or tried to dissuade you, then you could have deduced she wasn't that interested.
Now, if you suggest it, I guess she will welcome you, as you are "her very good friend"...

Oh well. If anyone says experience does not matter then this basically proves that is not the case. Once again I manage to just F something up. I give up, really I do.

[elaine567]

Hugs...

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Hugs...

Thanks.

I guess I need to remind myself I still getting a considerable amount of attention from her. I also need to remind myself at least I am good enough friend material. 

However the outcome is as predictable as it always is. This time I am determined not to go back the cesspool of OLD and arrangements. 

I probably have one last throw of the dice which is a considerable risk with perhaps very little upside so I am loath to actually do that. I suppose I just need to accept I am not good enough with some grace. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Oh well. If anyone says experience does not matter then this basically proves that is not the case. Once again I manage to just F something up. I give up, really I do.

You didn’t F anything up in almost all likelihood. I suspect she never saw you as more than a friend. But since you never made your interest known early on, that became destiny. Lesson learned. If you find somebody attractive let them know. Ask them out. Don’t go the friend zone route.

[Weezy1973]

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 I suppose I just need to accept I am not good enough with some grace. 

Being “good enough” has literally nothing to do with whether or not she’s attracted to you. 

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Being “good enough” has literally nothing to do with whether or not she’s attracted to you. 

To me it is.

[ZA Dater]

33 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You didn’t F anything up in almost all likelihood. I suspect she never saw you as more than a friend. But since you never made your interest known early on, that became destiny. Lesson learned. If you find somebody attractive let them know. Ask them out. Don’t go the friend zone route.

I am never going to work like that, been rejected too often to do that. I'd have thought spending time would have made my interest clear but I guess not. Again another inexperienced mistake.

Once again its a loss against the same sort of guys, this time on economic grounds. I can see what the end game here is, sleep with her as quickly as possible. Feign interest in kid to make yourself more attractive. 

People ask me why I am bitter. Self explanatory. 

[Cookiesandough]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am never going to work like that, been rejected too often to do that. I'd have thought spending time would have made my interest clear but I guess not. Again another inexperienced mistake.

Once again its a loss against the same sort of guys, this time on economic grounds. I can see what the end game here is, sleep with her as quickly as possible. Feign interest in kid to make yourself more attractive. 

People ask me why I am bitter. Self explanatory. 

People tried to tell you you were setting yourself up for failure with this and also trying to give you other useful advice which you continue to dismiss...Instead you’ve decided it’s best to get more advanced at lying to yourself 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

People tried to tell you you were setting yourself up for failure with this and also trying to give you other useful advice which you continue to dismiss...Instead you’ve decided it’s best to get more advanced at lying to yourself 

Sorry but with due respect advice that goes along the lines of "well you should date people you do not find attractive" or "well give someone you don't really like time and you might like them" every time I read the latter I almost feel the need to pick up something and throw it. 

The day someone I LIKE actually gives me that benefit I might decide to give the same benefit to other but until then I'd rather just sit in the corner on my own and regret almost every single decision I have made.

Edited March 14, 2021 by ZA Dater

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The guy she saw a few times is flying up to meet her again "he doesn't seem the jealous type, doesn't mind you and I being friends". In my view the guy is so over eager it reeks of desperation, she only left my city last week Tuesday and a week later he is flying up to see her.

This is what people do when they are excited about a new relationship. People generally want to see each other when they are in a relationship. 

Just look at how much time you have spent with this woman recently, hoping to gain her attention and affection. The fact that he wants to see her shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. You just don’t want it to be, that’s all.

I’m sorry that it didn’t have a different result, I know it’s disappointing for you. Still, nobody is entirely surprised. You knew this guy was in the picture - you set your sights on another unavailable woman. 

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This is what people do when they are excited about a new relationship. People generally want to see each other when they are in a relationship. 

Just look at how much time you have spent with this woman recently, hoping to gain her attention and affection. The fact that he wants to see her shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. You just don’t want it to be, that’s all.

I’m sorry that it didn’t have a different result, I know it’s disappointing for you. Still, nobody is entirely surprised. You knew this guy was in the picture - you set your sights on another unavailable woman. 

How is being single unavailable? She met me months before him. Once again the combination of my own  inexperience and very poor advice from friends has resulted in a total loss.

I'll just accept I am a piece of rubbish desirable to nobody I find attractive. Fact is the odds cannot be beaten. I will simply never be good enough. Hit my head against a wall once too often now so I'll go back bro the quiet reserved miserable guy because why bother being anything else.

Can't shop a Louis Vuitton with Walmart money. Once again proven to be true. Absolutely every single belief I am told us wrong has once again proven to be totally correct.

 

[MeadowFlower]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

How is being single unavailable? She met me months before him. Once again the combination of my own  inexperience and very poor advice from friends has resulted in a total loss.

I'll just accept I am a piece of rubbish desirable to nobody I find attractive. Fact is the odds cannot be beaten. I will simply never be good enough. Hit my head against a wall once too often now so I'll go back bro the quiet reserved miserable guy because why bother being anything else.

I haven't followed the story closely about you and this girl, but did you ever express to her your desire to date her? Before she met this other guy. 

You aren't a piece of rubbish, that is your disappointment talking. You say you are not desired by anyone you find attractive, but you yourself don't find every girl you meet attractive. Does that make them pieces of rubbish? No it doesn't.

On a personal level, I don't get the whole being 'just friends' thing. I know other people see it differently and can have close friends of the opposite sex, and date someone else. That's not the way I tick.

Anyway, let yourself feel the disappointment and deep hurt, but don't forget to live.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Can't shop a Louis Vuitton with Walmart money. Once again proven to be true.

Is not that what everyone has actually been trying to tell you?
You pitch at unavailable women out of your league with the inevitable results.
99% of the guys on this site would never have been in with a chance with this girl, so stop beating yourself up.
40 000 guys on IG with their tongues hanging out are not going to be wrong about her, are they? 
She will be looking for some special guy. Is this guy special enough for her? Time will tell.

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I can see what the end game here is, sleep with her as quickly as possible.

Adults have sex, sometimes they have early sex.
Not only players like sex, nice guys like sex too... 
Waiting around a long time for sex is not something adults tend to do.
Having or wanting sex is usually not seen as a bad thing in an adult relationship.