Can this work

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Which will realistically never happen so I am always going to be at the window looking in. I think maybe attraction could grow over time (I am told this by people on this very forum). I do not look for what does not exist, I know it does exists but the odds never favor me, much like they never ever favor me in anything I do.

I am never going to build rapport with the drinking party fun type of guy, its telling I haver very few friends at all. Part of me wonders if that inability to make friends just makes dating even harder. Again here she is more that homebody, part of the same culture as me which helps hugely but ladies like this are very rare in SA, they all tend to get married very young, kids by 25 and in many instances divorced by 35 with tons of baggage. 

The value I guess I can take is I have no control, I need to remind myself of that and remind myself often. Being alone now just feels a lot worse than I did before.

Yes, what you look for does exist, but the odds don't favour you because you're not naturally part of their tribe.  But please no pity parties - very few of us get partners who are not one of our tribe.  That said, only yesterday you were talking about how a women who doesn't speak or present well wouldn't be presentable with the business leaders you associate with, so please, enough complaining about the odds never favouring you.   

Having few friends certainly correlates with struggling when dating.   It speaks to needing the social skills required to fit in.  

Lastly, I agree with @elaine567 about attraction growing over time.  How many women have you eventually found attraction for after initially finding them unattractive?   And I've certainly never been one who's suggested that attraction grows over time.  

 

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Attraction only "grows" with familiarity in people who are actually attracted or who maybe are attracted.
Those who are definitely not attracted or who see a fatal flaw in that other person will never be attracted, so nothing will ever "grow".
It seems to me,  most people make the attracted/not attracted decision pretty quickly and they tend to not change their minds very often, unless for some reason they are desperate to find someone/anyone.
Have you ever changed your mind about someone you found unattractive?
I guess not.
The problem for you with this platonic friendship thing you have going is that she as a woman can keep this going for a long time, without it progressing any further.
Women often love having male best friends especially as you are always treating her. You give, she takes...
She is quite comfortable discussing her date(s) with you as why wouldn't she? You are her bestest friend, and that will continue as she continues to date other guys.
Being the best friend however usually becomes increasingly painful for anyone who really wants "more".

I had a good think about exactly this, on balance if I can retain just a bit of what I have been getting now then I think it will be enough, the reality is she lives 1000 miles away from both me and the potential date. She might move back here, she might not. 

There is no issue from my side to keep giving, I like giving when I am getting so much back, what I give can never really make up for the fact I get so much so maybe this is the way to look at it. 

I need to look overall, having something good some of the time and having nothing good all of the time. A lot of people around me have commented how much more cheerful and open I have been these last few weeks and that is true because I am not walking around this feeling of loneliness. A lot of things I wanted to do I have now been able to experience and there is a lot of good about that, I need to not let the overall view cloud the good parts.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is the thing on the last point, I know a lot of players and I need to expand on this to give you an idea why I detest what many of them do. Sure, hooking up is a two way street but when they sit there and extoll things or blatantly lie about who they are, what they do in order to take her home and then the next day describe to anyone who will listen the evenings activities in graphic detail, I find it hard to respect guys like that. And I know a few.

Yes, I do not find overweight people attractive, is there anything wrong with that? Lots of people do not find skinny people attractive either. My frustration with this is the result of ONLY matching with overweight people. The VAST majority of my dates have been with people I did not find physically attractive BUT I went along anyway to give them the benefit of the doubt because dating is ostensibly that, go and see if you actually connect with the person, well it is to me anyway.

Telling me I need to go on abc number of dates with someone I do not find attractive is pointless because I wont find them anymore attractive after date 5 than I did after date 1. Fingers cannot be pointed at me saying I have never been out with overweight people because that is simply not true. Do I treat them any differently no, and for what its worth K is not slim, never has been. 

My approach to women is old school, manners and open doors, pull out chairs, that sort of thing, that is how I was raised and when I sit listening to some guy laugh about his activities and who is better and who is sleeping with who I just feel totally out of it. 

Regarding the players, I think you're seeing a lot of women as victims to them.   But they aren't victims.  If they choose to go home with a guy on the night of the day they meet, they know what's going on.  And they probably tell stories to their girlfriends too.   So do you detest the women too?

With matching with only overweight women, we've told you before that you need to start again to beat the algorithms.  New email address, new user name, new photos, new description.  If you market yourself in a way which gets women's attention, you will receive the profiles of women who get attention.   Have you done this yet?

Yes, going on five dates with someone you're not attracted to is pointless.  For the same reason, the woman who's currently your friend will not start to see you as boyfriend material.  

Your old school approach of opening doors and pulling out chairs is nice.  But when there's only one chair to pull out and two doors to open on a night, what else do you have up your sleeve to make her see you as a guy worth having sex with?  Because at the end of the day, sex appeal and fun connection is where it's all at.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yes, what you look for does exist, but the odds don't favour you because you're not naturally part of their tribe.  But please no pity parties - very few of us get partners who are not one of our tribe.  That said, only yesterday you were talking about how a women who doesn't speak or present well wouldn't be presentable with the business leaders you associate with, so please, enough complaining about the odds never favouring you.   

Having few friends certainly correlates with struggling when dating.   It speaks to needing the social skills required to fit in.  

Lastly, I agree with @elaine567 about attraction growing over time.  How many women have you eventually found attraction for after initially finding them unattractive?   And I've certainly never been one who's suggested that attraction grows over time.  

 

I do not buy into tribes. Sorry that entire concept is frankly nonsense to me and makes a mockery of the fact we should be looking to be the best we can rather and settling. I stand by what I say, I could be bothered to develop good communication skills, I read about what is going on around me, I work out to look presentable so if I can do it why is it unreasonable to expect a potential date to do the same? 

Fitting in....as I grew up I realized I did not want to fit in, I had a different focus,  partying, drinking, girls those were not my priorities from 16-23, my intention was always to pick up dating later. Sure I asked one or two out and got rejected in front of many people but at least I tried. Everyone else went to the senior "prom" with someone, I went alone. 

The other night I sat down and wrote down my story and felt a lot better actually after doing that, at least I can see where things went wrong. When it comes to attraction I have always found the same things attractive and a lot of it revolves around my infamous "wow" but here I need to counter the next argument, I do try to be "wow" too. My hobbies are different there are many potentially nice things and as I found out last weekend people can really enjoy those experiences. 

I hope you are not inferring in the above that all people simply settle.

Funny because in terms of friends yes I have found some people more interesting over time than I had thought initially.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not buy into tribes. Sorry that entire concept is frankly nonsense to me and makes a mockery of the fact we should be looking to be the best we can rather and settling. I stand by what I say, I could be bothered to develop good communication skills, I read about what is going on around me, I work out to look presentable so if I can do it why is it unreasonable to expect a potential date to do the same? 

Fitting in....as I grew up I realized I did not want to fit in, I had a different focus,  partying, drinking, girls those were not my priorities from 16-23, my intention was always to pick up dating later. Sure I asked one or two out and got rejected in front of many people but at least I tried. Everyone else went to the senior "prom" with someone, I went alone. 

The other night I sat down and wrote down my story and felt a lot better actually after doing that, at least I can see where things went wrong. When it comes to attraction I have always found the same things attractive and a lot of it revolves around my infamous "wow" but here I need to counter the next argument, I do try to be "wow" too. My hobbies are different there are many potentially nice things and as I found out last weekend people can really enjoy those experiences. 

I hope you are not inferring in the above that all people simply settle.

Funny because in terms of friends yes I have found some people more interesting over time than I had thought initially.

One's tribe is where they find people who are like themselves. This gives easy connection and relatability.  If you see being with people who are similar to you as "settling" then, why would anyone want to be with you?   I mean, what is wrong with the people who are like you?

Working out to look presentable is merely one facet of a many faceted presentation.  If woman was slim but poorly spoken, uneducated, had nothing to say and hadn't travelled, would you take her with you to those work functions with those management guys?  Of course not.   If you want someone who has it all, then you need to have it all.

In all the times I've been writing to you, when have I EVER suggested that all (or even most) people settle?   

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

Regarding the players, I think you're seeing a lot of women as victims to them.   Because they aren't.  If they choose to go home with a guy on the night of the day they meet, they know what's going on.  And they probably tell stories to their girlfriends too.   So do you detest the women too?

With matching with only overweight women, we've told you before that you need to start again to beat the algorithms.  New email address, new user name, new photos, new description.  If you market yourself in a way which gets women's attention, you will receive the profiles of women who get attention.   Have you done this yet?

Yes, going on five dates with someone you're not attracted to is pointless.  For the same reason, the woman who's currently your friend will not start to see you as boyfriend material.  

Your old school approach of opening doors and pulling out chairs is nice.  But when there's only one chair to pull out and two doors to open on a night, what else do you have up your sleeve to make her see you as a guy worth having sex with?  Because at the end of the day, sex appeal and fun connection is where it's all at.

 

I detest that entire culture from both sides, though I concede this is probably more to do with upbringing and culture. 

Yes, I have changed profiles probably two dozen times across apps and I get exactly the same matches over and over again. Sure I did catfishing once and then I got different results but that totally pointless. IF I could say ok I am getting matches I actually find attractive and IF I am still taking loss after loss then at least I can say "ok well its not working but at least I am getting attractive matches" as it stands I get neither. 

With her there are a lot of complications and one of the profound things she said to me about herself  "who really would want to date me". 

Not sure what makes anyone worth having sex with to be honest. I can get some people to laugh, some of the time but these people are few and far between. I know its wrong but when I see sex appeal its usually related to alcohol and very little else. Honestly I do not know how to answer your question. What I can say is what I see as sex appeal is someone who engages with me, smiles at me, laughs with and at me, yes I need to find them physically appealing (pretty face being high up on the list) but so much for me about what makes a person attractive is how they engage with me. Would I sleep with this current lady, I would because I feel comfortable with her and I know I would not be judged because she knows my story and she makes me feel something.

That is the thing I cant hide my story, its pointless doing so because the way I come across is defined by that and from a position of inexperience. What they expect is not always what I am going to deliver, what I can deliver is kindness and generosity but what I struggle to deliver is flirting. I easily deliver loyalty and if I am comfortable enough I can deliver light hearted fun, its good not to take myself too seriously. A lot of what I can deliver is really defined by who is sitting in front of me and how they make me feel, which sounds very soppy for a guy to say when so many guys just chase how she looks. 

What I have learnt is I love time spent, that makes me feel really good.

[basil67]

If you've changed your profile many times but still got the same matches....but had success with catfishing, then the way you present is part of the problem.  Have you ever been styled by a stylist?  When was the last time you gave a hairdresser free reign to give you a current, cool haircut?   Would your new friend take you out and help style you?   It's the kind of thing which female friends are great at.  

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

One's tribe is where they find people who are like themselves. This gives easy connection and relatability.  If you see being with people who are similar to you as "settling" then, why would anyone want to be with you?   I mean, what is wrong with the people who are like you?

Working out to look presentable is merely one facet of a many faceted presentation.  If woman was slim but poorly spoken, uneducated, had nothing to say and hadn't travelled, would you take her with you to those work functions with those management guys?  Of course not.   If you want someone who has it all, then you need to have it all.

In all the times I've been writing to you, when have I EVER suggested that all (or even most) people settle?   

 

 

 

Then with OLD I am fishing in the wrong pool completely because I believe I can stand toe to toe with the other guys who are chasing her, I have met two of them (a whole lot of us met up, around 10 in total) and been involved in a big table conversation, normally I would be the shy one but I could actually lead the conversation, I found the confidence and managed to project that. At was at that point I realized that ok maybe I am not as bad off as I thought I was.

No I would not take that person to an event or dinner. Would not even consider it. 

[basil67]

What relation does taking the lead at a table have to landing a dream woman who all the guys are keen on?

And indeed, that you wouldn't take those women to your meetings is exactly why your physique alone isn't worth much.  It works both ways.

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

If you've changed your profile many times but still got the same matches....but had success with catfishing, then the way you present is part of the problem.  Have you ever been styled by a stylist?  When was the last time you gave a hairdresser free reign to give you a current, cool haircut?   Would your new friend take you out and help style you?   It's the kind of thing which female friends are great at.  

I have done this three times. All three times by models and all three times the results are the same. You have no idea how frustrating this is to get the same matches over and over again. My hair cut is always at the discretion of my hairdresser I pretty much give him free reign to do whatever he thinks looks good. I have done the whole new look thing over and over again and basically after wearing clothes I hated I now wear clothes I feel comfortable in.

Not very keen to project myself to her as a project, I do not want to go down this road because it really makes me feel bad about myself. At the moment I am owning the fact I am lonely, she knows that, she knows I have no luck dating but I do not expect her to help me, the best way she can help is is ironically to just be my friend.

I have tried dating itself from the point of view as presenting myself as project but that never works and its even WORSE when friends do this, once a lady who I did not know(and who had never met me) told my friend she would definitely help me, we met up at a club and she was there with her friends, every single one of them turned their noses down and it was one of the most humiliating things I have ever experienced.

The social problem with not drinking and partying is another fundamental problem.

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

What relation does taking the lead at a table have to landing a dream woman who all the guys are keen on?

And indeed, that you wouldn't take those women to your meetings is exactly why your physique alone isn't worth much.  It works both ways.

Point is I can have just as much confidence as them, honestly they added very little to the conversation at all. My point is I can compete at the level from time to time, where I get smacked to the ground is when it comes to flirting, I do not know how to do that so I am never a threat because of that, those guys knew that and they also knew they could outspend me, or at least thought they could. I am very competitive when I need to be and seldom back back from a challenge.

Point is there is I have made sure I can present well, I do have good manners, I am considerate, I am kind, I do have compassion, I am honest, I do maintain good eye contact, I do try and read body language, its not like I am taking the approach of "well this will do" I do actually try to be the best version of me on any given day. I am not a BAD guy, I do not look in the mirror and hate what I see. I do hate a total lack of success. I do hate a lack of opportunity and do detest being handled "well this is not good enough for me but its perfect for you".

Ultimately the choice I am going to make here will more than likely be to simply enjoy whatever friendship I can maintain with her because its a LOT better than any dating experience. 

Unfortunately rejection makes me forget everything that is good about me.

[basil67]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Point is I can have just as much confidence as them, honestly they added very little to the conversation at all. My point is I can compete at the level from time to time, where I get smacked to the ground is when it comes to flirting, I do not know how to do that so I am never a threat because of that, those guys knew that and they also knew they could outspend me, or at least thought they could. I am very competitive when I need to be and seldom back back from a challenge.

Point is there is I have made sure I can present well, I do have good manners, I am considerate, I am kind, I do have compassion, I am honest, I do maintain good eye contact, I do try and read body language, its not like I am taking the approach of "well this will do" I do actually try to be the best version of me on any given day. I am not a BAD guy, I do not look in the mirror and hate what I see. I do hate a total lack of success. I do hate a lack of opportunity and do detest being handled "well this is not good enough for me but its perfect for you".

Ultimately the choice I am going to make here will more than likely be to simply enjoy whatever friendship I can maintain with her because its a LOT better than any dating experience. 

Unfortunately rejection makes me forget everything that is good about me.

Confidence with the guys around a table does not equate to confidence to flirt and seduce.  So you're not toe to toe with them when it comes to getting a girl.   Hence, my suggestion of dating within your tribe.  If you believe you are a good guy, then surely your tribe is also good.   And better yet, they will more easily relate to you.

Your comments : honestly they added very little to the conversation at all and No I would not take that person to an event or dinner. Would not even consider it have no consideration, compassion or kindness.  How do you see yourself as being described by these adjectives when judgmental comments make up so much of your commentary on others? 

Edited April 1, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Confidence with the guys around a table does not equate to confidence to flirt and seduce.  So you're not toe to toe with them when it comes to getting a girl.   Hence, my suggestion of dating within your tribe.  If you believe you are a good guy, then surely your tribe is also good.   And better yet, they will more easily relate to you.

Your comments : honestly they added very little to the conversation at all and No I would not take that person to an event or dinner. Would not even consider it have no consideration, compassion or kindness.  How do you see yourself as being described by these adjectives when judgmental comments make up so much of your commentary on others? 

I do not have a tribe because I simply do not believe in them. People are people. 

Why is being honest a crime? I am entitled to choose who I want to spend time with and they added nothing to the conversation at all, again is being honest a crime? I am judged every single day, as are you and probably most of the people walking this planet. I live with it. 

I do not know how to seduce anyone. Must have missed that lesson. 

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not have a tribe because I simply do not believe in them. People are people. 

And where has this view gotten you?   I can tell you straight up that as the public schooled child of a blue collar worker, those who had my upbringing and schooling are generally those I relate to most easily.  And this tribe is always where I've found guys who are a really good fit for me.     

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Why is being honest a crime? I am entitled to choose who I want to spend time with and they added nothing to the conversation at all, again is being honest a crime? I am judged every single day, as are you and probably most of the people walking this planet. I live with it. 

I do not know how to seduce anyone. Must have missed that lesson. 

Being honest is not a crime.  Even being rudely honest is not a crime.  But it's certainly not in keeping with your view of yourself as supportive, compassionate and kind. 

The essence of being supportive, compassionate and kind is finding the positive in everyone.   Even those who we don't connect with or understand.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And where has this view gotten you?   I can tell you straight up that as the public schooled child of a blue collar worker, those who had my upbringing and schooling are generally those I relate to most easily.  And this tribe is always where I've found guys who are a really good fit for me.     

Being honest is not a crime.  Even being rudely honest is not a crime.  But it's certainly not in keeping with your view of yourself as supportive, compassionate and kind. 

The essence of being supportive, compassionate and kind is finding the positive in everyone.   Even those who we don't connect with or understand.

Do not misconstrue me. I have no issue with those people everyone is good at something and everyone has value. Sadly I have very seldom ever found myself on the opposite end of that understanding.

[basil67]

22 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do not misconstrue me. I have no issue with those people everyone is good at something and everyone has value. Sadly I have very seldom ever found myself on the opposite end of that understanding.

I have only ever known one truly kind and compassionate person.   The thing which made her compassion so noticeable was that when she spoke about others, she only ever commented on the positive things about that person.  She didn't have a harsh word to say about anyone.    

When others say they are compassionate, I compare them to her. 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by basil67

[chillii]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I had a good think about exactly this, on balance if I can retain just a bit of what I have been getting now then I think it will be enough, the reality is she lives 1000 miles away from both me and the potential date. She might move back here, she might not. 

There is no issue from my side to keep giving, I like giving when I am getting so much back, what I give can never really make up for the fact I get so much so maybe this is the way to look at it. 

I need to look overall, having something good some of the time and having nothing good all of the time. A lot of people around me have commented how much more cheerful and open I have been these last few weeks and that is true because I am not walking around this feeling of loneliness. A lot of things I wanted to do I have now been able to experience and there is a lot of good about that, I need to not let the overall view cloud the good parts.

 

That'd be fine if your genuinely happy with that problem is deep down you would love a lot more. So with how hurt you've been over everything and there'll be many more dates and bf's , or this one on going, sure you wanna set yourself up for more kicks in the guts.

 

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, chillii said:

 

That'd be fine if your genuinely happy with that problem is deep down you would love a lot more. So with how hurt you've been over everything and there'll be many more dates and bf's , or this one on going, sure you wanna set yourself up for more kicks in the guts.

I'd rather have that than have nothing at all. What gets to me is being so lonely all of the time, now I know how good it can be, being lonely is much worse than it was before. So if every so often I can have some company with her that would probably help a lot.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd rather have that than have nothing at all. What gets to me is being so lonely all of the time, now I know how good it can be, being lonely is much worse than it was before. So if every so often I can have some company with her that would probably help a lot.

It won’t. Like you said, being lonely feels even worse now than before. When she gets a boyfriend and has less time to spend with you, how do you think that will feel? Still better? Will your desire to be with her romantically magically disappear? 
 

Again, I’ve been down this road. Unrequited love. And it’s not something I’d advise. But why listen to people with experience right?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

It won’t. Like you said, being lonely feels even worse now than before. When she gets a boyfriend and has less time to spend with you, how do you think that will feel? Still better? Will your desire to be with her romantically magically disappear? 
 

Again, I’ve been down this road. Unrequited love. And it’s not something I’d advise. But why listen to people with experience right?

Still better than nothing at all. A crumb if good cake is better than a slice of plain bread. You have options which I do not so yes it's not ideal but probably the best I can hope for realistically.

I can just focus on work or something else to keep my mind occupied. 

If I had equivalent options then sure but I don't so I just need to do what I have done for years, live on good memories and the very occasional good experience.

[Weezy1973]

45 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Still better than nothing at all. A crumb if good cake is better than a slice of plain bread.

Umm nope. A slice of plain bread will nourish you, while the crumb of good cake will just leave you starving. 

 

46 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You have options which I do not so yes it's not ideal but probably the best I can hope for realistically.

I’ve always just been an average guy. I had options because I put myself in those positions in my life. I was actively doing things to increase my chances instead of doing nothing and just hoping fate would intervene. 

 

47 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I can just focus on work or something else to keep my mind occupied. 

Time and time again, this has proven not to be true. Mostly because loneliness is real, and painful. You can’t will away the pain. 
 

49 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

If I had equivalent options then sure but I don't so I just need to do what I have done for years, live on good memories and the very occasional good experience.

Doing what you’ve always done will produce the same results. You can have options but you’re going to have to work at it.

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Still better than nothing at all.

So are you a liar? What does that matter if it's still not what you actually want? If you want to use your "safety," cluelessness, and non-threatening brand to advertise yourself as a friend, and you want to enjoy everything that a friendship built on that entails, you should be very prepared to accept that that's all it's ever going to be. I think you basically cemented your fate as soon as you opened up to her about your struggles, and then again about how you value the friendship. It seems like we're still having this discussion as if you think you can be a friend to get a foot in the door, then crawl your way into something more than that. I really don't see it happening this way.

It also seems kind of deceptive. Say what you want about all those other guys you think are boorish, who lie about their intentions to get what they want, it feels as if you might be doing a bit of the same thing from the opposite side of the table, just wearing a bow tie and calling yourself classy. Whereas someone might overrepresent in hopes of being with her, you're under representing, calling them brutes and yourself a gentleman. A really honest person wouldn't lie either way. They wouldn't say "I'm really interested in seeing where this goes" (when they only want a one night stand) OR "I really value your friendship" (with the implication that you want to stay just friends when you actually don't). An honest person would say something like, "Hey, I've been having a great time here and I think you're pretty cute too, do you want to go to...?" Just the truth, no exaggeration, little ambiguity, just understandable romantic intent that isn't hidden in a trojan horse of "friendship." And you know what? A woman might actually be attracted to the confident, straightforward, and honest approach. You don't think this woman could tell you were interested in her relatively quickly? You don't think she somehow thinks less of you for not having the confidence to be forthright? You don't think that after you tell her how much you value her friendship she's going to feel lied to/intruded upon if/when you tell her you desire more than that? She might, in a way, respect your honesty about your struggles (the flip side of that is that she won't see you as a suitor), so are you going to tarnish the honesty brand by being dishonest otherwise?

 If you want to be her friend, congratulations, you are. End of discussion. If you were really honest about what you want with her and to everyone reading, there should be no further issue. But if you want more, then you need to accept the very real risk of giving up what you have and stop presenting it as if it's what you want. Right now you're just sitting in the middle with one foot on each side. So I think you need to either accept the relationship ceiling that comes with the friendship, or break through it and accept that the friendship floor might drop from under you. You want it both ways, I don't think it'll happen. Which do you want? 

Edited April 1, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

22 minutes ago, normal person said:

So are you a liar? What does that matter if it's still not what you actually want? If you want to use your "safety," cluelessness, and non-threatening brand to advertise yourself as a friend, and you want to enjoy everything that a friendship built on that entails, you should be very prepared to accept that that's all it's ever going to be. I think you basically cemented your fate as soon as you opened up to her about your struggles, and then again about how you value the friendship. It seems like we're still having this discussion as if you think you can be a friend to get a foot in the door, then crawl your way into something more than that. I really don't see it happening this way.

It also seems kind of deceptive. Say what you want about all those other guys you think are boorish, who lie about their intentions to get what they want, it feels as if you might be doing a bit of the same thing from the opposite side of the table, just wearing a bow tie and calling yourself classy. Whereas someone might overrepresent in hopes of being with her, you're under representing, calling them brutes and yourself a gentleman. A really honest person wouldn't lie either way. They wouldn't say "I'm really interested in seeing where this goes" (when they only want a one night stand) OR "I really value your friendship" (with the implication that you want to stay just friends when you actually don't). An honest person would say something like, "Hey, I've been having a great time here and I think you're pretty cute too, do you want to go to...?" Just the truth, no exaggeration, little ambiguity, just understandable romantic intent that isn't hidden in a trojan horse of "friendship." And you know what? A woman might actually be attracted to the confident, straightforward, and honest approach. You don't think this woman could tell you were interested in her relatively quickly? You don't think she somehow thinks less of you for not having the confidence to be forthright? You don't think that after you tell her how much you value her friendship she's going to feel lied to/intruded upon if/when you tell her you desire more than that? She might, in a way, respect your honesty about your struggles (the flip side of that is that she won't see you as a suitor), so are you going to tarnish the honesty brand by being dishonest otherwise?

 If you want to be her friend, congratulations, you are. End of discussion. If you were really honest about what you want with her and to everyone reading, there should be no further issue. But if you want more, then you need to accept the very real risk of giving up what you have and stop presenting it as if it's what you want. Right now you're just sitting in the middle with one foot on each side. So I think you need to either accept the relationship ceiling that comes with the friendship, or break through it and accept that the friendship floor might drop from under you. You want it both ways, I don't think it'll happen. Which do you want? 

I'll take the less risky option, the one where I sort of know what I am doing which would be that friend option. If I had more experience and knew what I was doing sure I'd love more but I have neither attribute so I have to work with what I have. 

I still reckon it's better to be honest from the off, she was getting over a tragedy and I did not think it was my place to try date her, not that I would know how to anyway. Point being inexperience is very undesirable, that's pretty much true but it is what it is, is rather our that out there than have someone wonder why I am not trying to seduce them.

Never ever has straight forward ever helped me, what it has gotten me is brutal rejection so I tend to merely dip my toe in the water rather than dive in.

I just wish I could have more but that's pretty much impossible if I don't know what I am supposed to do. It's like sitting with a puzzle trying to get piece's do go together.

As usual are are not wrong with the above.

 

[ZA Dater]

43 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

 

Time and time again, this has proven not to be true. Mostly because loneliness is real, and painful. You can’t will away the pain. 
 

Perhaps but if I can find a way to solve that most of the issue goes away. So I can approach from that viewpoint too.

Sure I have and do a lot to try improve myself to be better and I am better just not good enough. Nothing is static but equally to work you need to appeal to the market you desire and the qualities I have don't. That's just the reality, I can't change the fact the world puts a premium on sexual prowess ans flirting. I can't change the world. All I can do is try adapt as best I can.

I feel I have decent attributes just no romantic ones which is why you call Casanova to seduce and you call me when you need a shoulder to cry on or someone you know you can rely on. I have some times thought I can just have companionship without intimacy and it would be enough. That scenario is again probably the most realistic I could hope for.

[normal person]

58 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Never ever has straight forward ever helped me

But don't you think it's a more honest approach? Regardless of how it helps you specifically. The point being, maybe if we scratch the surface, you still prefer the tactics that benefit you the most (you think), regardless of how ethical they are. So you're making selfish decisions too. I'm not saying you're a bad person, but if you think about it like that, you're maybe not as ethical and upstanding as you're making yourself out to be. Again, I'd bet this woman senses this on some level. I'm sure she still thinks you're a great guy/friend, but you're not 100% innocent of underhandedness either.

Are you still her friend? Yes. Will she respect you in the same way she'd respect a guy who was upfront and honest about the situation? I really don't think so. Although you do raise a good point about her being a recent widower so there are some extenuating circumstances here.