Can this work

[dramafreezone]

12 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

It puts me in his game of matchmaking. Also puts him in the position of some difficulty.

As I say what she is going through at the moment is something where dating perhaps is not on her mind but someone supportive may be more important.

I am basically counting on the fact she knows I have no experience being an advantage..

 

Still don't get it.  A woman wants to associate you with fun.  Dates are supposed to be fun, light, flirty.  She doesn't want to spend it being supported.  You want to be her therapist or do you want to have sex with her?

[elaine567]

I think he would rather keep her as a friend than end up sending her scurrying for the hills if he tries something and gets it wrong.
There is kudos to be gained from spending time with a popular Instagram model.

I believe she thinks he is safe, so is perfectly happy to spend time with him, albeit now in the company of others.
Women tend to love platonic male friends, especially those who she suspects are in love with her but do not try to push it..
BUT
I guess as soon as he shows he wants something "more", he is no longer safe, so she will shut him out. He then has to decide whether he will accept friendship with no hope of anything else.

BTW What on earth is this friend up to?
Setting up young women with his mates and acquaintances for sex... sounds sleazy...
 

Edited February 21, 2021 by elaine567

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

If you’re sure, then it’s not a risk. I mentioned at the very beginning of the thread that this won’t work (I.e won’t develop into more than friendship) as long as you do things the same way you’ve always done them, and here you’re about to do that again. Why not change things up? We all know you won’t be happy with just being friends in the long run. 

It's better than nothing and better than being rejected. See when all I know is defeat I need to try get some wins not more defeat, all that's going to happen here is I will look like a giant idiot.

I simply have to content myself with whatever win I can get. Even if it's not the win I actually want, just the comment made to me "see there are lots of girls here for you" already implies friend zone. 

You aren't wrong but the last time I thought someone liked me I found out they did not, it all boils down to the simple fact there are better options than me. Guys who know what they are doing whereas I really don't. 

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

Still don't get it.  A woman wants to associate you with fun.  Dates are supposed to be fun, light, flirty.  She doesn't want to spend it being supported.  You want to be her therapist or do you want to have sex with her?

All very good and well except I am not fun light or flirty! Hence the reason why I simply default to what I am good which is listening and supporting. As for sex nobody I find attractive in that way ever finds me attractive in that way so I rarely chase that. 

 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I think he would rather keep her as a friend than end up sending her scurrying for the hills if he tries something and gets it wrong.
There is kudos to be gained from spending time with a popular Instagram model.

I believe she thinks he is safe, so is perfectly happy to spend time with him, albeit now in the company of others.
Women tend to love platonic male friends, especially those who she suspects are in love with her but do not try to push it..
BUT
I guess as soon as he shows he wants something "more", he is no longer safe, so she will shut him out. He then has to decide whether he will accept friendship with no hope of anything else.

BTW What on earth is this friend up to?
Setting up young women with his mates and acquaintances for sex... sounds sleazy...
 

Pretty much correct, every single time I have been in this situation its always gone badly so I unless there is some sign of actually interest that even a fool like me can see then it would seem going to the friendzone route might be the better idea. This is the major reason I dislike dating so much because kindness is very easy to misinterpret as interest so I am constantly keeping that fact in mind. Especially because I have made that mistake before. What I think I might do is throw "well I'd go out with you" into a conversation as a flippant remark and see what the reaction is, she is telling me she has few dating options, apparently because guys see a 6 month old baby with no dad and run for the hills. Again to me that is a friend zone type conversation so its those sort of things we share which to me indicates total friend zone.

I care not one jot about the kudos I do however like someone who is actually nice and engages with me and takes some interest, again I never get this sort of interest on coffee dates or any sort of date. 

But yes you are right I do not generally go down that road as it never ends well and I cannot see this being any different, which is where my point about experience comes in, if someone has had some success they may be more agreeable to taking that risk but if they have never had success there is little hope for a different outcome. What generally happens to me is i get used for whatever they actually need and then get thrown away like trash when they have it.

As for said friend, yeah its sleazy and this has gone on for years, he can sleep with and date whoever he likes really because a combination of success, charm and fun make that possible. Seeing this go on for the better part of 15 years is where my perspective comes from which everyone here disagrees with so much. Yet, its always the people he will not sleep with which are good enough for me but woe be tied if I should try and compete with this friends for someone I actually do like, the metaphorical punch to the face is usually a big one so I am expecting that here.

 

[ZA Dater]

9 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

  You want to be her therapist or do you want to have sex with her?

That's the thing I have zero sex appeal to the people I find attractive. The lesson life has taught me re this is being tall slim and athletic is not any advantage at all IF you cannot mix is with fun, flirty and light hearted. At the same time I cannot be someone I am not so while Mr A can sit and flirt and take her home, just about all I can do is sit there and make conversation about life, take an interest in her life and what she is doing. Its a fundamental flaw in me as a person because even I am not that stupid to believe that such conversation will lead me to take her home.

I think in my mind I have sort of just accepted that to some degree. Friends do not understand why I don't chase sex like they do but the reality is I just know that being unable to flirt or have light conversation means its a fruitless pursuit because I will always get passed over for guys who can do those things.

Added to which at nearly 37 and being a virgin I doubt the experience will be a particularly good one and full of awkward, again I'd rather avoid that. 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

she has few dating options, apparently because guys see a 6 month old baby with no dad and run for the hills

 I doubt it is just the baby they are running from. Plenty men will date single mothers even ones with young babies.
it will be the widowhood they are running from.
Death tends to scare people, dealing with a newly bereaved person is no fun, and competing against a dead husband and father is a huge task...

[Prudence V]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:59 AM, Trail Blazer said:

OP's problems are that the odds are stacked against most dudes on dating sites, as men outnumber women by a significant factor. 

OP’s bio says he’s from Cape Town, where women reportedly “outnumber men 9:1” (that’s an obvious overstatement; but it’s what women’s magazines claim in their many “why you won’t get a decent date in Cape Town” articles. Essentially, the argument is: most men in CT are either taken, gay, or married to their surfboards, leaving all the eligible young Cosmo-reading women squabbling over the handful of eligible dudes or looking elsewhere.) 

 

[Miss Spider]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:41 PM, StrongHands said:

BRO CODE is a real thing and to some guys sacred.  I like to think that the MUTUAL attraction between two will eventually trump even BRO CODE and that the BRO that is left behind will understand.  Is that wishful thinking?

Yep true. His friend didn’t care that much & I think he got distracted by another chick 😌

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

OP’s bio says he’s from Cape Town, where women reportedly “outnumber men 9:1” (that’s an obvious overstatement; but it’s what women’s magazines claim in their many “why you won’t get a decent date in Cape Town” articles. Essentially, the argument is: most men in CT are either taken, gay, or married to their surfboards, leaving all the eligible young Cosmo-reading women squabbling over the handful of eligible dudes or looking elsewhere.) 

 

Right. 🤔

Can I deduce from this post that the point you're trying to make here is that the stark reality that OP finds himself in is even more unflattering when viewed from this perspective?

[Trail Blazer]

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

 I doubt it is just the baby they are running from. Plenty men will date single mothers even ones with young babies.
it will be the widowhood they are running from.
Death tends to scare people, dealing with a newly bereaved person is no fun, and competing against a dead husband and father is a huge task...

Guys will date a chick under almost unimaginably difficult circumstances if she's hot.  Sure, some guys might draw the line at what you've described, but if she's really an Instagram model then the only thing preventing her from dating is herself. 

[Prudence V]

1 hour ago, Trail Blazer said:

Right. 🤔

Can I deduce from this post that the point you're trying to make here is that the stark reality that OP finds himself in is even more unflattering when viewed from this perspective?

My point is that the odds are, reportedly, stacked in OP’s favour, from a statistical POV. OP’s lack of success isn’t down to him being outcompeted by gazillions of higher-ranking males fighting over the same few women.
 

Rather, OP’s lack of success is down to (1) his narrowing of the pool of “women I’d consider” to a minuscule subset of available women, defined by highly desirable traits that he himself doesn’t possess which means they’re unlikely to regard him as equally mateworthy (he’s admitted this); and (2) OP’s resistance to doing anything about this by either reviewing his criteria for “women I’d consider” to be more inclusive, or working on improving his own “mateworthiness” score in terms of what that tiny subset of women is likely to be attracted to. 

If you’ve got two mutually exclusive subsets, the only way to get them to overlap is to expand at least one do them, and OP repeatedly asserts that he’s unwilling to to do either. Which dooms those two subsets to remain exclusive. 

[Trail Blazer]

3 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

My point is that the odds are, reportedly, stacked in OP’s favour, from a statistical POV. OP’s lack of success isn’t down to him being outcompeted by gazillions of higher-ranking males fighting over the same few women.
 

Rather, OP’s lack of success is down to (1) his narrowing of the pool of “women I’d consider” to a minuscule subset of available women, defined by highly desirable traits that he himself doesn’t possess which means they’re unlikely to regard him as equally mateworthy (he’s admitted this); and (2) OP’s resistance to doing anything about this by either reviewing his criteria for “women I’d consider” to be more inclusive, or working on improving his own “mateworthiness” score in terms of what that tiny subset of women is likely to be attracted to. 

If you’ve got two mutually exclusive subsets, the only way to get them to overlap is to expand at least one do them, and OP repeatedly asserts that he’s unwilling to to do either. Which dooms those two subsets to remain exclusive. 

I might point out that in any city where it's reported that there are more available men than women, this notion would be totally subsumed by the data which says that men outnumber women on dating sites by a significant factor.

Of course, all things being equal, OP would still have a better chance in Cape Town than another city where the opposite might be true. 

Having said that, you could increase the female dating pool by a significant factor and it wouldn't change the OP's chances of finding reciprocity with someone whom he deems attractive.  If he doesn't have what those sorts of women want, then nothing will change that fact.

As for the rest of your post, it sums up the situation quite well.  OP wants a certain kind of female that doesn't find him to be more attractive than the other males she can attract.  So, without either changing one's own standards, or finding a way to increase one's own desirability to the opposite sex, nothing changes.  Ever.

@ZA Dateris well aware of his conundrum.

 

[Weezy1973]

12 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I simply have to content myself with whatever win I can get. Even if it's not the win I actually want,

If it’s not the win you want, then it’s not a win. Way better idea is to be honest with your feelings towards her (you do pride yourself on you honesty) and ask her on a proper romantic date. Make it as obvious as possible. Or, if you see her again and are having a nice time, go in for the kiss. Worst case scenario she’s not interested, which might sting, but allows you to move on. Otherwise you’re just stuck in a fantasy world. And of course taking risk means there is a possibility that she actually is interested in you as well...

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

If it’s not the win you want, then it’s not a win. Way better idea is to be honest with your feelings towards her (you do pride yourself on you honesty) and ask her on a proper romantic date. Make it as obvious as possible. Or, if you see her again and are having a nice time, go in for the kiss. Worst case scenario she’s not interested, which might sting, but allows you to move on. Otherwise you’re just stuck in a fantasy world. And of course taking risk means there is a possibility that she actually is interested in you as well...

I will rather see if there is any sort of interest, build up a friendship over time and see if I can convert that into something.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

My point is that the odds are, reportedly, stacked in OP’s favour, from a statistical POV. OP’s lack of success isn’t down to him being outcompeted by gazillions of higher-ranking males fighting over the same few women.
 

Rather, OP’s lack of success is down to (1) his narrowing of the pool of “women I’d consider” to a minuscule subset of available women, defined by highly desirable traits that he himself doesn’t possess which means they’re unlikely to regard him as equally mateworthy (he’s admitted this); and (2) OP’s resistance to doing anything about this by either reviewing his criteria for “women I’d consider” to be more inclusive, or working on improving his own “mateworthiness” score in terms of what that tiny subset of women is likely to be attracted to. 

If you’ve got two mutually exclusive subsets, the only way to get them to overlap is to expand at least one do them, and OP repeatedly asserts that he’s unwilling to to do either. Which dooms those two subsets to remain exclusive. 

Why would I not go for highly desirable traits? I cannot fathom this way of thinking, please I'd be very interested if anyone actually dates people they do not find attractive and if so why? Why would someone do that? "More inclusive" please elaborate on this? "Tiny subset" actually this is not a tiny subset and I am again curious as to how you arrive at this conclusion?Te 

If I had to line up all the people I have ever found attractive I suspect you would find not one commonality at all. The fact I never find mutual attraction I suspect as I do with many guys like me it has more to do with the apparent criteria regarding what is deemed to be universally attractive than any severely unattractive qualities I might have....think about that for a minute.

 I know a LOT of really nice guys who get nowhere at dating and equally I know a lot of players and they get everywhere with dating so that tells me a lot. Just an FYI I am writing an adventure novel and part of that was I forced myself to got to clubs and bars for 9 months. I never ever saw the quiet guys leave with the attractive ladies but what I virtually always saw was the big mouth, brash, charming drinking guy leaving with them. And inevitably thanks to my player friends I'd hear how this one is doing that one and why is so and so not doing her, maybe so and so can hook him up with her. 

It might not appear it but I am largely at peace with that mechanism of dating, I cannot do anything about it but I also cannot compete in that world either. All I have to bring are the complete opposite qualities of those player charming guys. These are low value because many women love that attention, they love that adoration, even if it inevitably ends in a train wreck. There was a time I wanted to be like those guys, I even tried with poor results. At the end of the day its down to how people make us feel, those players make those ladies feel adored. 

What I am best at doing is being there for people, I'll be the guy who comes out in the pouring rain to change a tyre, I'll be the guy who sits and provides comfort and listens, I'll be the guy who never forgets a birthday or some special event and I'll make the effort to by something thoughtful. In short I actually do care quite a lot but caring does not translate into attraction and I get that. I really do. Others guys do charming, I do thoughtful.

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I might point out that in any city where it's reported that there are more available men than women, this notion would be totally subsumed by the data which says that men outnumber women on dating sites by a significant factor.

Of course, all things being equal, OP would still have a better chance in Cape Town than another city where the opposite might be true. 

Having said that, you could increase the female dating pool by a significant factor and it wouldn't change the OP's chances of finding reciprocity with someone whom he deems attractive.  If he doesn't have what those sorts of women want, then nothing will change that fact.

As for the rest of your post, it sums up the situation quite well.  OP wants a certain kind of female that doesn't find him to be more attractive than the other males she can attract.  So, without either changing one's own standards, or finding a way to increase one's own desirability to the opposite sex, nothing changes.  Ever.

@ZA Dateris well aware of his conundrum.

 

Not sure, some may find my accent appealing! 

Again over time what I want out of it has changed and reality say there is nothing very desirable about me in a conventional market so I need to find myself a niche market which I do by going down the friend zone route which is just about the only way I can spend time with people I find interesting, who make me feel something and with whom I can connect in some sort of way. That versus dragging myself off to dates with someone I have zero interest in, who makes me feel nothing and effectively brings nothing to my life. 

The choice is clear and most will not agree. I have hardly ever kissed anyone, the last time I did it was so awkward. These things cannot be explained away and they cant be faked either. Either I am completely upfront or there is not much point in dating at all because inevitably these giant deal killers will arrive at some point.

Being desirable only works if you have the experience and know how to use that desirability.

[Prudence V]

33 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I forced myself to got to clubs and bars for 9 months. I never ever saw the quiet guys leave with the attractive ladies but what I virtually always saw was the big mouth, brash, charming drinking guy leaving with them.

Perhaps this is the problem - you’re looking in places where people go looking for loud and brash, expecting them to want thoughtful and considerate. I’m older than you, but I only ever went to clubs and bars for a good time, never looking to meet anybody because I knew that the kind of guy I’d meet there wouldn’t be the kind of guy I’d want to spend any time with - other than a couple of hours of wild partying after a particularly rough week of work. If I wanted to meet guys I actually wanted to spend any time with, I’d go to the kind of place that I’d expect to find those kinds of guys. 
 

And, FTR, I never did the dating thing either. Too fake, and I just couldn’t go along with the notion of being at some kind of job interview for a job I didn’t want. I far preferred a more direct route. If I was interested in someone, I let them know. I know some people might have issues about “dating history”, but there are plenty of people who are more interested in who you are than who you’ve dated. 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

Perhaps this is the problem - you’re looking in places where people go looking for loud and brash, expecting them to want thoughtful and considerate. I’m older than you, but I only ever went to clubs and bars for a good time, never looking to meet anybody because I knew that the kind of guy I’d meet there wouldn’t be the kind of guy I’d want to spend any time with - other than a couple of hours of wild partying after a particularly rough week of work. If I wanted to meet guys I actually wanted to spend any time with, I’d go to the kind of place that I’d expect to find those kinds of guys. 
 

And, FTR, I never did the dating thing either. Too fake, and I just couldn’t go along with the notion of being at some kind of job interview for a job I didn’t want. I far preferred a more direct route. If I was interested in someone, I let them know. I know some people might have issues about “dating history”, but there are plenty of people who are more interested in who you are than who you’ve dated. 

Where would those places be?  Way I see it most people seem to meet other people via friends, that seems to be the best way but if that is so why so many people need to do OLD?

I have few friends. 

People here who go on about people wanting fun, they are not wrong. Ladies want a guy who knows how to date and flirt and with me they have the complete opposite of that so yes I am always fighting the odds.

[Weezy1973]

40 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Where would those places be? 

 

Basically anywhere you see the same group of people over an over. I met former girlfriends at university, work, night classes, work adjacent (I.e worked in the building next to me), and through OLD. Went to plenty of bars back in the day and never met a woman that way.

 

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

People here who go on about people wanting fun, they are not wrong. Ladies want a guy who knows how to date and flirt and with me they have the complete opposite of that so yes I am always fighting the odds.

This is literally an answer to a post from a woman who was never interested in those types of guys. You have to stop generalizing about what “ladies” want. They’re all different. At bars and clubs though you’ll definitely see a higher percentage interested in those “party” guys. And if a large portion of your worldview is based on your player friend, well that skews your reality as well in the same direction. 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I will rather see if there is any sort of interest, build up a friendship over time and see if I can convert that into something.

And will you continue pursuing other women at the same time? Because the friendzone is a giant waste of time. You build up hope that you will convert it to romance, however she might never be attracted to you, so if you put all your eggs in this one basket you waste time. Or she might be interested right now, in case every minute you spend in the friendzone is both wasting time, and giving her the opportunity to lose interest because you haven’t made a move.

[basil67]

44 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Way I see it most people seem to meet other people via friends, that seems to be the best way but if that is so why so many people need to do OLD?

 

I'm of the generation and culture where we met partners through friends, neighbours, work friends,  parties.  We weren't set up, we just would go to a thing and someone had brought a mate and we'd get chatting.  Doing it this way was particularly successful because we generally socialised within groups of people who were culturally like us.    Most of us married someone having dated less than 5-10 different people ever.  

Anyway, while this was a successful, we could go for many months without meeting a person.  A gap of a year or more was not uncommon and we were OK with it.  These days, dating appears to be a consumerist exercise.  So many seem to get stressed out with the idea of not meeting someone for a year.  And the seemingly endless stream of options giving many people the illusion that Mr/Ms Perfect is just around the corner.   People are so desperate to find a person that they date multitudes of people at a time so that they "don't" get attached.  Thing is, allowing ourselves to get attached in the old days, was part of what made it work.  

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Basically anywhere you see the same group of people over an over. I met former girlfriends at university, work, night classes, work adjacent (I.e worked in the building next to me), and through OLD. Went to plenty of bars back in the day and never met a woman that way.

 

This is literally an answer to a post from a woman who was never interested in those types of guys. You have to stop generalizing about what “ladies” want. They’re all different. At bars and clubs though you’ll definitely see a higher percentage interested in those “party” guys. And if a large portion of your worldview is based on your player friend, well that skews your reality as well in the same direction. 

 

And will you continue pursuing other women at the same time? Because the friendzone is a giant waste of time. You build up hope that you will convert it to romance, however she might never be attracted to you, so if you put all your eggs in this one basket you waste time. Or she might be interested right now, in case every minute you spend in the friendzone is both wasting time, and giving her the opportunity to lose interest because you haven’t made a move.

I never see the same people anywhere, simply do not have the inclination to go to places and do things which do not interest me in the hope I find someone interesting there. Much like my study days I am working from home now so pretty much see nobody most days.

All I hear is " I met at abc party" " I met him through ABC friend" " I met him at abc trance party". 

I don't chase anyone anymore I simply cannot be bothered to go through the same thing over and over again, this is different because I just met her and we got along. I had three decent Tinder matches I. January, not one of them chatted back to me when I tried to initiate conversation, why because they found something better. So no I can't really be bothered.

[Trail Blazer]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

I'm of the generation and culture where we met partners through friends, neighbours, work friends,  parties.  We weren't set up, we just would go to a thing and someone had brought a mate and we'd get chatting.  Doing it this way was particularly successful because we generally socialised within groups of people who were culturally like us.    Most of us married someone having dated less than 5-10 different people ever.  

Anyway, while this was a successful, we could go for many months without meeting a person.  A gap of a year or more was not uncommon and we were OK with it.  These days, dating appears to be a consumerist exercise.  So many seem to get stressed out with the idea of not meeting someone for a year.  And the seemingly endless stream of options giving many people the illusion that Mr/Ms Perfect is just around the corner.   People are so desperate to find a person that they date multitudes of people at a time so that they "don't" get attached.  Thing is, allowing ourselves to get attached in the old days, was part of what made it work.  

There is something to be said about how OLD has changed the psychology of dating to one of much higher expectations of immediate success, given the plentiful options at one's disposal.

Having said that, for many people OLD has actually been a fantastic experience.  Coming out of a LTR and marriage which spanned 12 years, OLD afforeded me the opportunity of meeting so many women I never would have met otherwise.

In OP's case, he's tried OLD for a very long time and has not found success.  It certainly does not work for everyone.  I know I would have found the OLD experience quite disheartening if I didn't match with people I found attractive.

In terms of the "old ways" of getting attached working, I think people settled quicker because there were fewer options perceived to be out there.  I think that if you are someone who can connect easily with people online, you're going to have a much easier time succeeding than in the "old" way.

 

[ZA Dater]

Anyway I am going to be spending some time with her toward the end of this week so lets see how that goes. Being able to spend a decent amount of time around someone is refreshing actually because the more time I spend the more comfortable I feel and the more confident I can be.

 

[Foxhall]

Yes good to see your confidence is growing,

It can get embedded in the psyche, none of this relationship stuff is for me, it is not something I will ever obtain in life,

then eventually you meet someone and you connect better and gradually over time "hey maybe I have a chance here-maybe it can happen after all,

Hopefully this might work out for you, you are building it well keep going.