Can this work

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

Yes good to see your confidence is growing,

It can get embedded in the psyche, none of this relationship stuff is for me, it is not something I will ever obtain in life,

then eventually you meet someone and you connect better and gradually over time "hey maybe I have a chance here-maybe it can happen after all,

Hopefully this might work out for you, you are building it well keep going.

Lets see, so long as I can be the best version of myself I'll be happy, that is what I expect of myself. I know I am accepting very difficult odds here because really she can have whoever she likes and how I am going to try "sell" is by being me, which is to say I do not try hard to fit in with everyone else. Offer something different has been my usually diabolically bad selling technique but I find myself defaulting to it because I do believe it can work, it will never work for the person looking for a fun night but it might work for someone who might want something more than that.

There is a lot to me that I never really show people, I am the quiet type of guy but certain people do get me to open up and when I do that I am sometimes in with a better chance, unfortunately I need supremely confident nice people to bring that side out.

Ultimately a certain degree of happiness I derive from caring about those around me.

[Cookiesandough]

21 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

So, without either changing one's own standards, or finding a way to increase one's own desirability to the opposite sex, nothing changes.  Ever.

@ZA Dateris well aware of his conundrum.

 

Yep. That’s it. Bottom line. Fin. 

Yet in 5+ years no advice really ever taken and still manage to squeeze out 10+ pages a thread on something that never changes and reduces down to this every time. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[normal person]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Lets see, so long as I can be the best version of myself I'll be happy, that is what I expect of myself. I know I am accepting very difficult odds here because really she can have whoever she likes and how I am going to try "sell" is by being me, which is to say I do not try hard to fit in with everyone else. Offer something different has been my usually diabolically bad selling technique but I find myself defaulting to it because I do believe it can work, it will never work for the person looking for a fun night but it might work for someone who might want something more than that.

You'll be happy with regards to your own sense of self, but if you continue to be unhappy in love, and this cycle will continue. Let's not conflate the two separate things as one. You can be happy with your career, but if you're unhappy with say, your health, your  family, etc are you "happy" overall? The fact you continually have these problems always makes me question every time you conclude a thread and insist you're "happier" just being yourself. And I've never been one of these people who suggests you date women you aren't attracted to, or to deceive people, etc. I respect your steadfastness in that regard. But if you really want to be happy, I think you need to find the palatable intersection of a few different things in your life, love included, for which you may need to be willing to make some slight compromises. Your life will not go exactly as you want or expect and you need to be aware of that and willing to make some adjustments, considerations, and compromises in certain areas in order to happy overall. Getting what you want in life and being an adult will require you to do things you don't want to do. Finding excuses is childish and a waste of your time. If you can do things ethically, maintain your integrity, not lie to people, then who cares if you cull some previously hidden traits or drop some less favorable ones? That shouldn't be viewed as a betrayal of yourself, that's just what most people need to do to succeed in a lot of different areas. 

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

There is a lot to me that I never really show people

So find a way to show them. You're 36 years old and they aren't seeing it yet so you're overdue to take matters into your own hands a little. You're not doing anything wrong by occasionally and tastefully showing people that you're a decent person. It's a feather in your cap. You can be humbly and tastefully proud. You can lean on it. No one's going to think you're arrogant. It's no more different than someone's success, or fitness, or whatever being recognized or highlighted. This is what I was talking about in the paragraph above. Maybe it's time to compromise a little bit of humility so someone can see that you're a great guy. You would have no reason to feel bad or disingenuous about it. No one's going to see the movie you're too scared to screen.

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am the quiet type of guy but certain people do get me to open up and when I do that I am sometimes in with a better chance, unfortunately I need supremely confident nice people to bring that side out.

Again, you're 36 years old. Being shy is no longer an acceptable excuse to keep you from what you want in life. When you say you "need confident people to bring that side out," you're making more excuses and passing along the responsibility of your success to someone else. It's your responsibility. You're in your prime, you're not a child who needs other people to do things for him. You're a successful person and a valuable member of society, people will respect and listen to you. Don't leave your fate in someone else's hands. If you've been quiet, find the strength to speak up or continue to suffer. No one, and I mean no one, is going to suddenly accuse you of duplicity for being a little loud in pursuit of what you want when you were previously quiet. Your friends, if they're really your friends, will be happy you're finding the strength to do so. You're not doing anything wrong or immoral. If you've been a good person, if other people have benefitted from your care and generosity, then there's no shame in you benefitting from your own strength and accomplishments as well. Conversely, if you don't do these things, and it's obvious that you won't out of fear, and that it's preventing you from getting what you want, people will think you're weak. Your inability to overcome your fear to get what you want is actively making things harder for you; people see it, or they sense it, and they assume some level of cowardice. Prove them wrong, change their minds and prove yourself right. It's not as hard as you think it is. Take some steps. Take some chances. Even if you don't get the exact desired outcome, you'll at least learn that you have the capability to overcome fear going forward and can then make adjustments. You know what's attractive? You know what helps me sleep at night? You know what people respect? Doing some difficult, uncomfortable thing that you don't want to do only because you have to, be it to benefit yourself, and/or others. That's a defining characteristic of adulthood: facing fears, facing discomfort, and conquering them. Running from your problems, or making excuses as to why they can't be solved is a childish practice that any mature, sensible adult has dropped. There's little to no respectability in the immaturity of these sorts of avoidances. I repeat, you are a grown, successful, smart, caring person. There's a lot to respect about you but it's all going to be overlooked if you're paralyzed by weakness, fear, or excuses. 

I don't know what combination of words you need to read that will eventually make it click with you. Enough excuses. The situation is far from hopeless. You have the basic requirements despite your insistence that you don't or that the playing field is not to your advantage. You do seem like a great, smart, caring person. If other people aren't seeing it, show them -- it's not against the rules. Have some strength. Don't waste your life making excuses, it hasn't done you any good so far. Even after all these years, I have faith that you'll be able to figure this out one day (hopefully soon) and it will make me euphoric to read your success thread. I'll fly to South Africa to high five you.

Edited February 23, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, normal person said:

 

Good encouragement, thank you. I was reflecting much like this earlier today and maybe I do need to market myself my own way and not worry so much about what other people do and what other people see. I can be outgoing when the opportunity arises the issues for me is OLD really does not work which then means I need to actually go out and find people and that is not so easy for various reasons. Somewhere along the line we all need some help with things, that slight advantage we can use to get us where we want to go. 

I go through phases, right now life is quite good, I have someone to actually care about in the great friend zone scheme of things which is nice, I call it the balance that I need because when I have this balance everything is much easier. Its when I am chronically alone that the balance swings the wrong way, when I go on these pointless OLD dates the balance goes the wrong way. At least now I have a base of sort, she knows the history, virtually all of it and I am still getting a lot of warm friendly conversation, something I have never had a lot of in life. There is a feel good there. But I also know this can change like the weather and equally when I have had this before I inevitably over play my hand badly. 

The compromise I am making here is there is a young baby but I do not really see that as a compromise, for me someone who makes something the centre of their life is very attractive to me, have a passion about something, so rarely do I ever find that. I actually like kids too. I need to take some chances, I am pretty risk adverse so yes you are right on that. The inherent problem I have is chronic over thinking, this runs to almost everything I do but its worse with dating. 

A guy with a charming personality, that is quite easy to show, my loyalty and dedication (I sound like a dog) are harder to show, the interest in the world around me is harder to show. How I normally try to do this is to just try do good things and take interest. However that gets me into the friend zone at best. I can tell you this I am desperate for a win of some sorts, I really do not have the appetite for another loss, every loss makes me less motivated and more motivated to just focus elsewhere. 

I am not really prepared to fundamentally compromise in the sense I am going to date people I find unattractive, I think you can appreciate this fact quite well. I can try be more outgoing but I seldom meet people and anything church and drink related does not appeal to me. Again its a mindset but its hard to change that mindset when there are no wins. 

Probably the great motivator is I know the odds are stacked against me so impossible challenges are something I enjoy so long as I am in the race. Its just very difficult to ignore the fundamentals and they are not good from a dating perspective, they are good for staring down CEO's and dealing with incredibly difficult people but that intensity is not really suited to dating. I seldom open up because my story is so different from most the spectre of judgement is never far away, I am very honest about who and what I am but also confident of those two things.

It would just be nice to have some success, even if just once. 

My strategy with this lady is simply to just be me, she is not in space where she can date and that is fine, if she does not like me that way, well that is predictable but also fine. The value for me is there is someone I feel comfortable around, yes its not ideal in the sense I wont really go chasing anyone else because again the opportunities are just not there and OLD does not dish up any matches I actually want to meet. Being me is probably the biggest value I get out of this and I have that balance.

Most of this wont make a lot of sense.

[basil67]

37 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My strategy with this lady is simply to just be me, she is not in space where she can date and that is fine, if she does not like me that way, well that is predictable but also fine. 

She's already told you that she's not in a space to date?  

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, basil67 said:

She's already told you that she's not in a space to date?  

Yes. Circumstances and things she is dealing with.

[Trail Blazer]

53 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes. Circumstances and things she is dealing with.

Are you are hoping to orbit around her long enough that when she is ready to date, you'll just be there and hopefully be the logical choice?

I'd love to think that will happen, but we all know that the likelihood of that happening is very low.  You're positioning yourself to be friendzoned.

 

 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes. Circumstances and things she is dealing with.

OK, so she's positioned you as a friend.  Given that your approach is supportive rather than romantic, it could well work that you'll be that supportive friend.    As long as you're comfortable with this, carry on.

[5x5]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes. Circumstances and things she is dealing with.

Then it's pretty clear that she has told you in a non-confrontational way, that she has absolutely no interest in being with you as a romantic/sexual partner.

Given what she has said, you would be a fool to ever presume/expect otherwise from her.

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Then it's pretty clear that she has told you in a non-confrontational way, that she has absolutely no interest in being with you as a romantic/sexual partner.

Given what she has said, you would be a fool to ever presume/expect otherwise from her.

I agree.
No woman is going to deliberately burn her boats in this way with any man she has even the faintest attraction to.
Why would she?
If she told you this, then she was sending you a loud and clear message.
Best to listen. to her.
Dating is a two way street, with no romantic interest from one side, it is a waste of time and energy.
You of all people must know this.
How much interest have you developed for the women you see as undesirable, the women you don't want to date?
She does not want to date you, else she would never have said that to you.

Your intentions are not about pure friendship, your intentions are about wanting her to date you.
If she was nice and caring and, fat and forty, then I doubt you would give her the time of day...
She has made her intentions clear.
If you persist in trying to date her, then she will see the friendship as a sham, a ruse. 

[ZA Dater]

17 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Are you are hoping to orbit around her long enough that when she is ready to date, you'll just be there and hopefully be the logical choice?

I'd love to think that will happen, but we all know that the likelihood of that happening is very low.  You're positioning yourself to be friendzoned.

 

 

Bear in mind she never told me this, my friend did "leave her for now, be her friend, she cant deal with guys right now".

Again lets be honest friendzone is as good as it mostly gets for me.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Again lets be honest friendzone is as good as it mostly gets for me.

As I’ve said many times, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy...

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

As I’ve said many times, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy...

Its fine, whatever will be will be.

 

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, 5x5 said:

Then it's pretty clear that she has told you in a non-confrontational way, that she has absolutely no interest in being with you as a romantic/sexual partner.

Given what she has said, you would be a fool to ever presume/expect otherwise from her.

Exactly. Thank you. People like her seldom go out with people like me but so long as I can hold onto some remote hope my life actually is ok when it comes to dating, I'd rather hold onto that than the reality of being doomed to being alone my entire life or worse yet still settling for someone I have no interest in at all.

I have made tremendous and very costly dating mistakes and I need to live with the outcome of those, that is my reality just accept that and carry on as best I can. I have probably made even greater social mistakes by simply not adopting the attitude most others take and likewise I need to live with that. 

All I can do is just be the best version of me I can be and if the best outcome is the friendzone well then at least I have done the best I can. The deal I made with myself was I would stop chasing dating at the point where I felt I had done all I could to get what I really wanted. I am not at that point but I am closer to it. 

I have tried to be a better person, tried to be a more outgoing person, tried to change the manner and why I communicate, tried to take better pictures, tried to be fittest person I can be and at some point I need to instead of beating myself up actually look back and say, ok I am better now than I was 3 years ago. I cannot gauge my improvement in terms of dating but rather how I feel on a day to day basis and yip dating clouds that a bit or a lot but I feel like a better person.

I expect nothing from people, nothing at all because when I expect things I am always disappointed. People who get dating right I have huge respect for because it must be great to fidn mutual attraction, it must be great to share things, must be great to feel that closeness. For me it might be something I chase and never find, I need to accept that fact as a possible reality. 

Would I have liked to sleep around in my 20's, maybe I would have, would I like mutual attraction, sure but those things never happened for me. I can either cry about them are just move forward as best I can. 

At least this lady makes me feel something which is more than 99% of dates I go on do so if she does not want to date, well so be it, that feeling will always be there and its a good feeling to have because to some degree that giant void I feel most days is not there.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Bear in mind she never told me this, my friend did "leave her for now, be her friend, she cant deal with guys right now".

 

Hang on....I asked if she had told you that she wasn't in a position to date and you replied "Yes. Circumstances and things she's dealing with"     Have you and I gotten confused and she didn't actually tell you this?  

If it's as the quote at the top, your mate has no business assuming what she wants and telling these assumptions to others.  

 

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Hang on....I asked if she had told you that she wasn't in a position to date and you replied "Yes. Circumstances and things she's dealing with"     Have you and I gotten confused and she didn't actually tell you this?  

If it's as the quote at the top, your mate has no business assuming what she wants and telling these assumptions to others.  

 

He told me to leave her and yea I know what she is going through and probably does not want to date anyone or alternatively he is just protecting me from certain rejection I suppose. Remember he was trying to set her up with other guys. This thought has occurred to me.

[hotpotato]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:55 PM, ZA Dater said:

Yes. Circumstances and things she is dealing with.

That's what people say before they date someone else.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, hotpotato said:

That's what people say before they date someone else.

Probably but look I am not surprised. I am what I am really so I can choose how situations make me feel, if this is a loss it's a loss. Not like I have anyone else who I find interesting so. 

I am going to make a concerted effort to make sure certain things don't bother me.

[ZA Dater]

On 2/24/2021 at 11:15 PM, hotpotato said:

That's what people say before they date someone else.

Ok so I had a really nice day with her and her son, was really amazing and for the first time in my life that void I feel wasn't there.

Then but she asked me to meet up with a guy she went a date with, wanted my opinion on him so it's safe to say I am in the friendzone. Not sure how I feel about this because the day was just so perfect between her and her adorable son I just dropped all my armour and lived the moment and just enjoyed everything about it.

I also dont think she really knows what she wants but for me right now this friendzone is really nice, a case of imagining what would be the ultimate and finding its better than I could imagine. Finally the reality surpassed the idea.

Very special day that I will remember for a long time. Conversation just flows about everything and I am totally open, no shyness.

 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Then but she asked me to meet up with a guy she went a date with, wanted my opinion on him so it's safe to say I am in the friendzone

She either has no idea you are attracted to her, or she is trying to send you a clear message that she is dating others and you are not on the list of potentials. 
I am unclear really why she  asked this of you, as your own dating record is hardly a resounding success. I think she probably is trying to put clear water between the two of you.
If she has no particular agenda, this is the reason it is never a good idea to be friends with people you want to date.
They treat you like a friend and friends tend to ask and tell each other about dating other people and that is awkward and can be hurtful to anyone who really wants "more" than just friendship.

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She either has no idea you are attracted to her, or she is trying to send you a clear message that she is dating others and you are not on the list of potentials. 
I am unclear really why she  asked this of you, as your own dating record is hardly a resounding success. I think she probably is trying to put clear water between the two of you.
If she has no particular agenda, this is the reason it is never a good idea to be friends with people you want to date.
They treat you like a friend and friends tend to ask and tell each other about dating other people and that is awkward and can be hurtful to anyone who really wants "more" than just friendship.

This is pretty much good enough for me fi be honest. A few days like this every now and then and I could fill the dating void quite well.

I'd never have been on the list of potentials and that's pretty much what my friend told me under the guise of well let's not hurt him. 

It's ok to be honest, sure it hurts a bit but at least I know how good it can be with the right person I actually click with. Even if they don't see me as a romantic potential.

I just have to concede I can't have everything I want but this is probably pretty close to everything I could want. Far far superior to ANY dating experience I have had. Typically though the other guy is older, borders on what I'd call playboy in personality but I can't see this as a loss I got most of the win I actually wanted.

[ZA Dater]

At the end of the day it's the same issue as it always is, I am simply not good enough to be seen as a romantic option. How do I work around this not bothering me?

This is always the other issue, how to take the good and leave the bad. An interesting thing did happen there were other ladies sitting with us and I tried to engage them the same way but it just did not work, usual look down their noses look at me and just ignored. 

I think somehow I need to try limit my thinking to just the friendzone and try be happy with just that, any ideas how to do this?

Frankly after today I realise how bad even what I thought were good past interactions were. There is just something about her nobody else has had. 

What is clear to me is my friend basically did tell me to not bother because he knew I just never had a chance, cant really fault that barring perhaps I'd have liked to have been told directly rather than some flowery story.

So once again I have a piece of the cake I like, I just can't afford the cake and am just not desirable enough.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I think somehow I need to try limit my thinking to just the friendzone and try be happy with just that, any ideas how to do this?

First I think you have to stop calling it the friend zone, and start just saying friend. It’s actually a great idea to build out your social circle and accumulate friends that you feel comfortable just being yourself around and having conversations with. 
 

But I’ll ask again, as long as you’re talking about only being friends, would you have any interest in doing this with a woman you don’t find physically attractive?

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

First I think you have to stop calling it the friend zone, and start just saying friend. It’s actually a great idea to build out your social circle and accumulate friends that you feel comfortable just being yourself around and having conversations with. 
 

But I’ll ask again, as long as you’re talking about only being friends, would you have any interest in doing this with a woman you don’t find physically attractive?

No I wouldn't if she were not physically attractive. Remember I like to believe in things even I cannot accomplish them.

It was a nice day but I just cannot escape the "not good enough" feeling, I'd love to know what the cure for that is.

[ZA Dater]

The fundamental thing is I like pretty much everything in this scenario, if you asked me what my ideal would be it would be this, she smiles at me engages with me in a way nobody has before. I can climb out of my she'll be the person I am because the challenge is there to engage in a meaningful way.

Her little boy adds go the appeal because again I can bring out the caring side of me and who doesn't love a baby laughing and smiling at them.

Again I suspect as with many things life gives me what I want fleetingly to then take it away again and leave me feeling very down. I cannot help but feel a failure here.

Which is a very empty feeling. 

All I am going to say before she goes on yet another date with this guy tomorrow is " if you like him, you feel attracted to him then you should try, any guy would be extremely lucky to get to spend time with you"

A lot of the connection I have with her is our shared values and the similar way we grew up not to mention cultural similarities. 

Again I just feel I lack experience. This does hurt more than I have in a long time.

Need to find a way to distract myself or any way to feel better, suggestions welcome.