Can this work

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, normal person said:

Good advice from your friend. As I mentioned before, if you sense that she's trying to create emotional distance between the two of you, the best thing you can do is to try and create emotional distance yourself to let her see how unfazed you are by the whole thing. Wait until you have some concrete reason to think she might have some interest (like introducing you to her friends) before you go and make an attempt. 

It sounds good to you now, but after a time you'll just grow bitter with it. And really, if you do become an "orbiter" who's fixated on her, you'll never be with her because she'll never respect you in that way. Ironically, doing your own thing, having your own dating life independent of her, having your own achievements and successes is a much clearer path towards her admiration. So don't be seduced by the little bit of joy you get just by hanging around her all the time. If you forego that you'll give yourself a much better chance at what you actually want. Occasionally tell her you can't hang out because you're busy. Don't jump at every opportunity to be with her. Let her know about other people you date/see, etc. Her perception of you will change for the better and eventually once she recognizes your independence and value (yes I'm aware this may be sounding like some PUA crap but there is some validity to this aspect, in my opinion) she may even miss you, feel bad that you aren't around more, maybe even start to desire you. That's just how it works in my experience. I used to see a girl who'd just gotten out of a long term relationship, after we spent a ton of time together she thought it'd be best to dial it back and just "be friends," yet the second she saw me even talk to another girl at a bar she got into a jealous fit and was suddenly singing a different tune. Not that you do that sort of thing to intentionally play with someone's emotions, but you can't sit around waiting for something that may never happen. The change in someone's emotions when you don't can just be a surprisingly advantageous consequence. 

Well I am going to defer to your experience because I have none and do what you say. I'll create some distance and dial things back a bit. Thing is she does not really create distance, she is still intent on hearing what I think of this guy. I do not really have a dating life and she knows that, I made that pretty obvious during on the long chats we had, its ridiculously easy to sit and chat to her for hours, which again is nice and a novelty. I was considering reading a few of the PUA stuff but I do not think my personality is aligned to how that actually works. 

Your advice makes good sense to me and this time I still have the confidence to approach day with that and that is a big benefit. There will be around 3 or so weeks where she wont see me and I wont initiate too much contact, normally we sort of chat everyday in some form or another. Its this which has made me feel less lonely.  I have years chasing with little to nothing to show for it really in terms of experience. 

Ultimately though maybe I am overreaching here and the only reason I am entertaining going potentially far out of my comfort zone is I really do feel something and very rarely feel anything toward people. 

Seeing other people is easier said than done, I have deleted all my OLD apps because I have just realized that is never going to work and I do not think any cold approach would work for me. My friends, they love parties girls, so nothing really there either.

 

[elaine567]

41 minutes ago, normal person said:

. Wait until you have some concrete reason to think she might have some interest (like introducing you to her friends) before you go and make an attempt. 

I could be wrong but I guess her introducing him to her friends, is not about her increasing her interest but about suggesting he may be able to date one of her friends instead.
His friend I guess does not think ZA can date this girl in a million years...

[normal person]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I could be wrong but I guess her introducing him to her friends, is not about her increasing her interest but about suggesting he may be able to date one of her friends instead.
His friend I guess does not think ZA can date this girl in a million years...

Good point, I didn't think about that. I wonder if ZA would go for that. Although dating one of her friends would probably ensure he would never the woman in question. 

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I could be wrong but I guess her introducing him to her friends, is not about her increasing her interest but about suggesting he may be able to date one of her friends instead.
His friend I guess does not think ZA can date this girl in a million years...

She does not have many friends here. Iman trying hard not to talk myself down because that accomplishes nothing but this is a predictable outcome. It's about holding the negative feelings back now and remembering I probably did better this time than I ever have before.

Reality is my friend could date her I reckon. She'd be perfect for him actually but he is also in that friendzone.

I am determined not to get negative but I am determined to follow Normal Persons advice because he has the experience I don't. 

 

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, normal person said:

Good point, I didn't think about that. I wonder if ZA would go for that. Although dating one of her friends would probably ensure he would never the woman in question. 

I am such an acquired taste and impossible to really match with, the attraction here is we are quite similar in philosophy and upbringing.

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I am determined not to get negative but I am determined to follow Normal Persons advice because he has the experience I don't.

While I can commend you for taking advice and accepting what you don't know, keep in mind that I, and other people on here, don't know everything either. I have navigated my way through the dating scene about as much as anyone but there are still plenty of blindspots and shortcomings, I'm sure. All I can do is tell you what happened to me, what I did in a similar set of circumstances, why, and how it turned out. There's a limit to what we can understand about you, her, and this situation, so what I don't want to happen is for you to take my advice as absolute gospel and then have it not work out for some reason beyond my, or even your, control, and then I'm responsible for it. Maybe I've made some missteps with phrasing things like almost definitively like, "this is what you should do," etc. The reality is that even if everyone here could see the situation with absolute clarity, we probably still couldn't come to a consensus about what you "should" do, because every situation is different. Other people might think my advice is terrible and if so, I'd like to hear it because I can still learn things myself. I'm happily married now but the psychology of it all is interesting and I like to be helpful where I can. If you're taking in advice and thinking about your emotions objectively (which is counterintuitive, I know), which you seem be doing, and then acting accordingly, then in my opinion, you're going about it in the right way. Keep in mind there's no qualification required to post here. I see brilliant posts and I see posts that point people in what I think is the wrong direction. My advice still stands but hopefully you just use it to inform your own decisions and do what's best for you. 

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, normal person said:

While I can commend you for taking advice and accepting what you don't know, keep in mind that I, and other people on here, don't know everything either. I have navigated my way through the dating scene about as much as anyone but there are still plenty of blindspots and shortcomings, I'm sure. All I can do is tell you what happened to me, what I did in a similar set of circumstances, why, and how it turned out. There's a limit to what we can understand about you, her, and this situation, so what I don't want to happen is for you to take my advice as absolute gospel and then have it not work out for some reason beyond my, or even your, control, and then I'm responsible for it. Maybe I've made some missteps with phrasing things like almost definitively like, "this is what you should do," etc. The reality is that even if everyone here could see the situation with absolute clarity, we probably still couldn't come to a consensus about what you "should" do, because every situation is different. Other people might think my advice is terrible and if so, I'd like to hear it because I can still learn things myself. I'm happily married now but the psychology of it all is interesting and I like to be helpful where I can. If you're taking in advice and thinking about your emotions objectively (which is counterintuitive, I know), which you seem be doing, and then acting accordingly, then in my opinion, you're going about it in the right way. Keep in mind there's no qualification required to post here. I see brilliant posts and I see posts that point people in what I think is the wrong direction. My advice still stands but hopefully you just use it to inform your own decisions and do what's best for you. 

Yeah what stood out for me is to step back a bit, I have struggled with this concept in life because my instinct when I see a potential loss or issue is to do more not do less.

I need to accept I can't control all the variables here. I can however enjoy the good parts there is nothing wrong with doing that. 

[ZA Dater]

Another really great day today. Spent basically the whole day with her which was really enjoyable. I just decided to be the best version of myself just be me and create a good impression which I think I do when I am with her, what I love is all topics are open for discussion. Eye contact really good, banter really good and it's just nice. Baby adores me and me him, it's amazing how much positivity kids can bring. 

My view is no matter what does or does not happen the opportunity I have here is to just be the person I am with no expectations, enjoy the time and the moment's with her. Give you an idea I have never been shopping with a date before, help pick out things. I actually enjoyed it. Sounds stupid but these seemingly mundane things are full of smiles and laughs. 

 

[Cookiesandough]

I dunno. I think these unrequited love things you keep engaging ( With your friend K too) may seem like just mundane smiles and laughs.. but I bet they are a big part of what’s keeping yourself back from finding a meaningful relationship. Now you’re pining after a model who is not interest Ed 

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

I dunno. I think these unrequited love things you keep engaging ( With your friend K too) may seem like just mundane smiles and laughs.. but I bet they are a big part of what’s keeping yourself back from finding a meaningful relationship. Now you’re pining after a model who is not interest Ed 

This is a lot better than any of the many dates I have been on, given the choice I will choose this over any of them. I clearly am not that bad to be around if she is happy to spend time with me, contrast this with the dates I have and the difference is very clear. Nobody wants a relationship with someone who clearly has never had one and OLD does not work nor does going to clubs and so called hobby groups so to me at this point this sort of friendship is very nice to have. I am no illusions that its just friends but its also an opportunity for me practice being more confident and outgoing. There are no people I like who want a relationship with me, instead there are people who match with me I have absolutely zero interest in so having the friendship of someone I enjoy spending time with it frankly more valuable to me than going on endless dates being judged the same way I always am.

Its also an opportunity for me to do the things I always wanted to do, take someone to lunch, go shopping, critique outfits, buy things and just showcase the good qualities I do have, which sound ridiculous but if you have been through life completely alone these sorts of things are really nice. The reality with me is the more people spend time with me the more they seem to like me, that's true even with the few guy friends I have.

SO instead of dreaming of tomorrow I am living today. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

SO instead of dreaming of tomorrow I am living today. 

But it’s you making sure you’re safe. If you know she’s not interested, then you can hang out with her worry free, still hold onto the “what if” fantasy, but not get hurt. Or so you think...

 

The pain will come when she finds someone she is interested in, and spends less and less time with you. Right now she’s just a distraction from your pain, rather than a solution to it. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

But it’s you making sure you’re safe. If you know she’s not interested, then you can hang out with her worry free, still hold onto the “what if” fantasy, but not get hurt. Or so you think...

 

The pain will come when she finds someone she is interested in, and spends less and less time with you. Right now she’s just a distraction from your pain, rather than a solution to it. 

Well there are no other viable options. I'll just enjoy this for what it is, which is nicer than any date I have been on. 

I just have to accept the reality which for once actually isn't full of trying to squeeze any sort of anything I like from dating sites. I really don't see anything wrong with enjoying what has been the best experience I have had with a lady.

At least here I am not stuck in endless defeat.

What I am good at will not work on many people but in the context of this it does which I think you can understand is quite a nice feeling, not to feel totally inept.

[Foxhall]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Its also an opportunity for me to do the things I always wanted to do, take someone to lunch, go shopping, critique outfits, buy things and just showcase the good qualities I do have, which sound ridiculous but if you have been through life completely alone these sorts of things are really nice

Yes I can relate to a lot of that ,

 nice to enjoy the female company anyway, 

you never know, she may fall for you yet some day, but regardless, its positive to get what you describe there.

[Weezy1973]

On 3/6/2021 at 2:40 PM, ZA Dater said:

Well there are no other viable options. I'll just enjoy this for what it is, which is nicer than any date I have been on. 

You expressed the same sentiments towards “K”, but sure enjoy the experience of having a temporary friend.

[basil67]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:54 AM, ZA Dater said:

Reality is my friend could date her I reckon. She'd be perfect for him actually but he is also in that friendzone.

Reality is that your friend can't date her because he's not perfect for her  

 

[ZA Dater]

12 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You expressed the same sentiments towards “K”, but sure enjoy the experience of having a temporary friend.

K always kept me at arms length, here I am getting a lot more interaction and there is a lot more communication, over 10 minutes in voice notes today and consider she is busy but still takes the time to ask how I am, how my day is going and relating things that she is busy with. For me there does not seem to be much of a downside to what I have now. 

All I am going out to do here is be the best version of who I am, if something comes of that, great, if not I at least for once can be me and feel quite good about being me and feeling like the person I am does in fact have some value. What I perhaps never said here before is after each failed date I would feel just a little bit less good about myself, I really did go out to be myself but that never seemed good enough so over time a very low opinion of myself was formed. 

Nobody goes out to date to be rejected but its tough to keep liking the person you are when nobody else seems to like that person. Here I can be who I am and for once someone seems to enjoy spending time with me.  

Just being ok with being me is already a win as far as I am concerned.

Edited March 8, 2021 by ZA Dater

[dramafreezone]

On 3/6/2021 at 11:02 AM, ZA Dater said:

This is a lot better than any of the many dates I have been on, given the choice I will choose this over any of them. I clearly am not that bad to be around if she is happy to spend time with me, contrast this with the dates I have and the difference is very clear. Nobody wants a relationship with someone who clearly has never had one and OLD does not work nor does going to clubs and so called hobby groups so to me at this point this sort of friendship is very nice to have. I am no illusions that its just friends but its also an opportunity for me practice being more confident and outgoing. There are no people I like who want a relationship with me, instead there are people who match with me I have absolutely zero interest in so having the friendship of someone I enjoy spending time with it frankly more valuable to me than going on endless dates being judged the same way I always am.

Its also an opportunity for me to do the things I always wanted to do, take someone to lunch, go shopping, critique outfits, buy things and just showcase the good qualities I do have, which sound ridiculous but if you have been through life completely alone these sorts of things are really nice. The reality with me is the more people spend time with me the more they seem to like me, that's true even with the few guy friends I have.

SO instead of dreaming of tomorrow I am living today. 

I just think youre only attracted to women who have no interest for whatever reason.  You're setting yourself up for failure every time.  I don't know how that could possibly build confidence.  Confidence is built on accumulating successes.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

I just think youre only attracted to women who have no interest for whatever reason.  You're setting yourself up for failure every time.  I don't know how that could possibly build confidence.  Confidence is built on accumulating successes.

I do not view success as going on dates with people I have no interest in. I am off OLD completely so I do not need to put up with the temptation to go and look their again which is a good thing, effectively I have no options at all now but I'd rather have that actually than options with people I do not find attractive and with whom I have nothing in common.

My appeal is extremely limited so I know I am not likely to find what I want but for now I have pretty much exactly what I want so I am going to enjoy that for as long as I can. She might not be attracted to me but she gives me more attention than any lady has ever before. 

[trident_2020]

59 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

she gives me more attention than any lady has ever before. 

Besides your mother of course.

[dramafreezone]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not view success as going on dates with people I have no interest in. I am off OLD completely so I do not need to put up with the temptation to go and look their again which is a good thing, effectively I have no options at all now but I'd rather have that actually than options with people I do not find attractive and with whom I have nothing in common.

My appeal is extremely limited so I know I am not likely to find what I want but for now I have pretty much exactly what I want so I am going to enjoy that for as long as I can. She might not be attracted to me but she gives me more attention than any lady has ever before. 

I just think no one here is equipped to help you because this is not really love that you're seeking, but instead some kind of unusual attachment to another person that's not rooted in love, some sort of nebulous relationship that's in between friendship and love.  When you say "can this work" none of us know because none of us have sought out or desired what you desire.  Most of us want to find someone that we love that also loves us, values us, and cherishes us, someone that we can grow with, but you don't need or want that.  So I guess only you know if this can work or not. 

You don't need anyone else's advice because this is your own thing, not anything that anyone else fully understands.  You are the foremost expert on this matter.

Edited March 9, 2021 by dramafreezone

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

I just think no one here is equipped to help you because this is not really love that you're seeking, but instead some kind of unusual attachment to another person that's not rooted in love, some sort of nebulous relationship that's in between friendship and love.  When you say "can this work" none of us know because none of us have sought out or desired what you desire.  Most of us want to find someone that we love that also loves us, values us, and cherishes us, someone that we can grow with, but you don't need or want that.  So I guess only you know if this can work or not. 

You don't need anyone else's advice because this is your own thing, not anything that anyone else fully understands.  You are the foremost expert on this matter.

My point stands. I'd rather have this than force myself to find someone attractive who I don't find attractive. I'll quite likely never find mutual attraction.

 

[elaine567]

Most people don't choose their friends based on their looks, because it is usually irrelevant.
Sure no-one really wants to go out and about with a dishevelled mess of a person, but if they are highly intelligent, or have a great personality or are fun, then who really cares?
I don't believe there are NO other women, apart from this IG model that could fill this friend role.
ZA is an orbiter here, and that is not a great place to be.
Unrequited love always hurts and needs to be avoided if at all possible...

[dramafreezone]

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My point stands. I'd rather have this than force myself to find someone attractive who I don't find attractive. I'll quite likely never find mutual attraction.

 

You'll never find mutual attraction because you're not actually seeking mutual attraction.  That requires deliberate efforts through a variety of ways to build yourself into someone that others will be attracted to, which you've voiced an unwillingness to do.   For instance, this IG model has gone great lengths to put effort into her apperance, because she knows that what men like.  It's not because she just likes to do it for the hell of it.  She understands the laws of attaction.  You have to be what you want to attract.

Edited March 9, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

30 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

You have to be what you want to attract.

So true.
There is a saying that "If you want to be a millionaire's wife, then you have to look and act like a millionaire's wife."
I guess it works the same way here.
"If you want to be a IG model's bf, then you have to look and act like  an IG model's bf."
All else is no doubt ultimately futile.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, dramafreezone said:

You'll never find mutual attraction because you're not actually seeking mutual attraction.  That requires deliberate efforts through a variety of ways to build yourself into someone that others will be attracted to, which you've voiced an unwillingness to do.   For instance, this IG model has gone great lengths to put effort into her apperance, because she knows that what men like.  It's not because she just likes to do it for the hell of it.  She understands the laws of attaction.  You have to be what you want to attract.

With respect a lot of this is be polite. Not much one can do with the looks one is born with besides be the fittest version of oneself and I am quite fit. Actually she does not spend hours making herself up before she goes out, she simply goes out. I am unattractive because I refuse to conform to the social norms here of drinking, partying and house parties. Or for that matter going to church. I was once refused a date because I did not go to church which in hindsight might have been a blessing.