Can this work

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am never going to work like that, been rejected too often to do that. I'd have thought spending time would have made my interest clear but I guess not. Again another inexperienced mistake.

We all told you repeatedly that pitching yourself as the BFF who listens, supports and gives gentle advice will not make your interest clear. Rather it would have the result of her viewing you as a good friend.  And this is exactly what happened.  To add insult to injury, not only does she see you as BFF, but your interactions are so benign that she knows her new BF won't have an issue with you being that friend.  

The guy she's seeing now would have been behaving in a way which would attract her both cognitively and sexually.   Their interactions would be fun, flirty, they would be exploring the potential of a new love and having wild monkey sex.   I guarantee you that he didn't start out acting like a BFF.  He acted like a man who was really into a woman.

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, basil67 said:

  To add insult to injury, not only does she see you as BFF, but your interactions are so benign that she knows her new BF won't have an issue with you being that friend.  

Good point.

[Miss Spider]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

How is being single unavailable? She met me months before him. Once again the combination of my own  inexperience and very poor advice from friends has resulted in a total loss.

I'll just accept I am a piece of rubbish desirable to nobody I find attractive. Fact is the odds cannot be beaten. I will simply never be good enough. Hit my head against a wall once too often now so I'll go back bro the quiet reserved miserable guy because why bother being anything else.

Can't shop a Louis Vuitton with Walmart money. Once again proven to be true. Absolutely every single belief I am told us wrong has once again proven to be totally correct.

 

That may be 10% of advice that you were given( I also happen to think it wouldn’t hurt to lower your standards a bit) but are you going to just pretend the other 90% never happened ? Because I read pretty much all of it

Edited March 14, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry but with due respect advice that goes along the lines of "well you should date people you do not find attractive" or "well give someone you don't really like time and you might like them" every time I read the latter I almost feel the need to pick up something and throw it. 

The day someone I LIKE actually gives me that benefit I might decide to give the same benefit to other but until then I'd rather just sit in the corner on my own and regret almost every single decision I have made.

I keep telling you, that's not how it works.  In most cases women do the choosing, men, the chasing. 

If you're attracted to someone, chances are many other men are, too.  If you even want to be in her frame, you have to make your intentions known or you'll be passed over.

Yes, it's a harsh world where we're all competing against one another for partners, jobs, everything.

Do you think it's all inherently unfair?  If so, you're probably right.  But it's reality.  If you can't compete with the other guys who want the same girl as you, what are you going to change?

You have three choices to make.  You can compete harder and raise your SMV.  You can retain your current SMV and lower your standard.  Or, you can simply give up.

What's it going to be?

[BaileyB]

From the movie The Holiday... In the movies, there are two kinds of characters - the leading lady (in this case, the leading man) and the best friend. You positioned yourself as the best friend, and expected her to consider you as a leading man. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by BaileyB

[5x5]

 

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Once again its a loss against the same sort of guys, this time on economic grounds. I can see what the end game here is, sleep with her as quickly as possible. Feign interest in kid to make yourself more attractive. 

People ask me why I am bitter. Self explanatory. 

While you instead feigned interest as a platonic friend, of which that kind of crap doesn't make you a good guy or an attractive suitor either.

You didn't lose out on economic grounds, you lost out by pretending to be a platonic friend and thinking that you could win her passively.

On the other hand the guy you dismiss, didn't pretend to be a platonic friend at all. He obviously made it clear he desires her sexually and wasn't shy about it, which is what sexual attraction is all about. Good on him, given she is a widow she could probably do with a good shag over and over.

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry but with due respect advice that goes along the lines of "well you should date people you do not find attractive" or "well give someone you don't really like time and you might like them" every time I read the latter I almost feel the need to pick up something and throw it. 

The day someone I LIKE actually gives me that benefit I might decide to give the same benefit to other but until then I'd rather just sit in the corner on my own and regret almost every single decision I have made.

Yet here you are getting your nose out of joint when a woman who believes you are a platonic friend, is attracted to a man who expresses sexual desire for her. She didn't reject you, you chose to rule yourself out from the running, when you chose to play being her friend.

Do you understand the irony of you whingeing about rejection by women who aren't attracted to you? All while you reject women (with a significant lack of empathy), that you aren't attracted to.

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How is being single unavailable? She met me months before him. Once again the combination of my own  inexperience and very poor advice from friends has resulted in a total loss.

...

Can't shop a Louis Vuitton with Walmart money. Once again proven to be true. Absolutely every single belief I am told us wrong has once again proven to be totally correct.

You waited for months!!!??? While trying to play as her platonic friend.

I'm sorry but when you go out of your way to present yourself as a platonic friend,  you will be considered exactly that. This isn't on your friends at all, this is on you, through misinterpreting reality and blaming others for your own choices.

Plenty of people with Walmart money manage to find sexual relationship partners, so let's not pretend that your income is the cause of your mating failures.

At the end of the day as has been told to you so many times, the way into a woman's knickers isn't through trying to be their platonic friend.

Until you decide to abandon the nonsense you believe with respect to women, sexual relationships and dating. You will continue to generate the failure you choose.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I keep telling you, that's not how it works.  In most cases women do the choosing, men, the chasing. 

If you're attracted to someone, chances are many other men are, too.  If you even want to be in her frame, you have to make your intentions known or you'll be passed over.

Yes, it's a harsh world where we're all competing against one another for partners, jobs, everything.

Do you think it's all inherently unfair?  If so, you're probably right.  But it's reality.  If you can't compete with the other guys who want the same girl as you, what are you going to change?

You have three choices to make.  You can compete harder and raise your SMV.  You can retain your current SMV and lower your standard.  Or, you can simply give up.

What's it going to be?

I'll just give up. Pretty obvious I'll never get this right because I simply don't know how to get it right. People have years of experience and I have none so I have neither the experience and the judgement which comes from experience. Unfortunately as this has shown both are important and without either I'll never get anywhere.

It is what it is.

I'd have gotten passed over anyway because let's face it is have been worthless for 20 odd years what made think I had any worth now I have no idea.

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

He acted like a man who was really into a woman.

I don't know how to do that. That's the crux of it. Never have known how because 20 years of rejection means I frankly don't know how to do anything more thank just try to be friendly.

It's not like anyone takes any real interest in me anyway.

I'll just find a way to live with it.

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, 5x5 said:

 

While you instead feigned interest as a platonic friend, of which that kind of crap doesn't make you a good guy or an attractive suitor either.

You didn't lose out on economic grounds, you lost out by pretending to be a platonic friend and thinking that you could win her passively.

On the other hand the guy you dismiss, didn't pretend to be a platonic friend at all. He obviously made it clear he desires her sexually and wasn't shy about it, which is what sexual attraction is all about. Good on him, given she is a widow she could probably do with a good shag over and over.

Yet here you are getting your nose out of joint when a woman who believes you are a platonic friend, is attracted to a man who expresses sexual desire for her. She didn't reject you, you chose to rule yourself out from the running, when you chose to play being her friend.

Do you understand the irony of you whingeing about rejection by women who aren't attracted to you? All while you reject women (with a significant lack of empathy), that you aren't attracted to.

You waited for months!!!??? While trying to play as her platonic friend.

I'm sorry but when you go out of your way to present yourself as a platonic friend,  you will be considered exactly that. This isn't on your friends at all, this is on you, through misinterpreting reality and blaming others for your own choices.

Plenty of people with Walmart money manage to find sexual relationship partners, so let's not pretend that your income is the cause of your mating failures.

At the end of the day as has been told to you so many times, the way into a woman's knickers isn't through trying to be their platonic friend.

Until you decide to abandon the nonsense you believe with respect to women, sexual relationships and dating. You will continue to generate the failure you choose.

Its all very good and well but put yourself in the shoes of someone who has no experience and every single dating experience you do have is negative and then tell me I played the situation incorrectly based on those facts? The reality is I will NEVER have enough charm to be like these other guys, I lack the charm, experience and confidence and why do I lack the confidence, well because I just get rejected anyway. The reason I did what I did was I just wanted to be the person I am and see if she actually wanted to spend some time with me which would then consider a decent enough base to work from.

Clearly I am wrong. Clearly I have no idea how to get "into a woman's knickers" and frankly I genuinely don't. 

People tell me 'just be their friend" why tell me this if there is actually no point in doing this? 

I simply do not go on dates anymore with people I am not interested in and I have removed myself from ALL forms of OLD. 

 

 

[5x5]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Clearly I am wrong.

Yep.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Yep.

Quite used to it when it comes to dating, everything I do is wrong it would seem. So much for the continual advice I get from people around me 'just be their friend". But again that could be well "you are not good enough so rather do not even try" advice masked as something else which sounds a bit better on paper. No I am actually pretty much fed up with people around me, its ok to extoll the virtues of people they are not interested in but I am supposed to find these people amazing? 

When I do find someone I find amazing all this apparent support is nowhere to be seen "well just be friends" is what I get. Continually I get told all sorts of "well just be their friend you can start like that".

Bottom line, you either have market value or you do not. Pretty much nothing I can do will change that because no matter what I do there will be a fault somewhere else. 

I'll just have to find a way to live with it, what that way is I have no idea but maybe in time I will find it. In the meantime I'll put up more walls so the rest of my life does not become polluted with this and do my best to pretend everything is ok.

 

[elaine567]

37 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

So much for the continual advice I get from people around me 'just be their friend".

Being the friend can be a way to meet women, especially for shy guys, but it can't stop with being the friend.
You have to then show them that you really want to be their bf and thus ramp up sexual tension and try to trigger attraction.
That carries risk, she may only want a friend or she may not be attracted but unless you show your hand then she will put you into the friend pile and go look elsewhere for a bf.
This works best probably with women who have few options either because they are fussy or shy or are not overtly desirable.
Women with options tend to get offers right left and centre, so are not likely to see a guy who presents himself first and foremost as a friend, as a viable option.
It also works if there is a lot of close contact like a co-worker for instance. Every day they get closer and closer until one day they realise they are not just friends...

Edited March 15, 2021 by elaine567

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Being the friend can be a way to meet women, especially for shy guys, but it can't stop with being the friend.
You have to then show them that you really want to be their bf and thus ramp up sexual tension and try to trigger attraction.
That carries risk, she may only want a friend or she may not be attracted but unless you show your hand then she will put you into the friend pile and go look elsewhere for a bf.
This works best probably with women who have few options either because they are fussy or shy or are not overtly desirable.
Women with options tend to get offers right left and centre, so are not likely to see a guy who presents himself first and foremost as a friend, as a viable option.
It also works if there is a lot of close contact like a co-worker for instance. Every day they get closer and closer until one day they realise they are not just friends...

I am just going to concede I simply cannot get this right from the point of view I don't have the skills and the experience. I am never going to fly  a 747 so I just need to concede I am never going to be able to date for the same reasons.

Most of the above I have no idea how to actually do. As for co workers been there, granted she was not single but again it was just another mess where I got used for what I am good at and very little was ever reciprocated. 

Honestly I am about ready to just close the book on this for good, not everyone can find success at this but it will always hurt that I go so close to what I did want but could never actually make it work. What infuriates me further "oh rejection is normal, I get it all the time" sure but in 20 odd years has had many gf's and had the success. What I get is a kick in the face if I even bother to try, irrespective how well meaning my intentions are. But then again I should not be surprised, on any given day there are guys trotting out half truths, blatant lies, feigned interest to get women to sleep with them. Yet those same women reject men like me and complain about men like that.

 

[chillii]

16 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am never going to work like that, been rejected too often to do that. I'd have thought spending time would have made my interest clear but I guess not. Again another inexperienced mistake.

Once again its a loss against the same sort of guys, this time on economic grounds. I can see what the end game here is, sleep with her as quickly as possible. Feign interest in kid to make yourself more attractive. 

People ask me why I am bitter. Self explanatory. 

 

Nah it doesn't really work like that . Spending so much time actually confuses things for her , like why hasn't he ? And so she'd flick off that switch then if it was at all on earlier bc to her by then it seems you obviously weren't interested in more .

At any rate , him flying out doesn't mean much yet , they might not even click.  Most people often wind up meeting dozens of people before something actually gets anywhere. Not that l'm saying wait around , just sayin.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by chillii

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, chillii said:

 

Nah it doesn't really work like that . Spending so much time actually confuses things for her , like why hasn't he ? And so she'd flick off that switch then if it was at all on earlier bc to her by then it seems you obviously weren't interested in more .

At any rate , him flying out doesn't mean much yet , they might not even click.  Most people often wind up meeting dozens of people before something actually gets anywhere. Not that l'm saying wait around , just sayin.

 

 

Irrespective of what happens I am taking a making loss on this. I'll lump the majority of the blame on my own apathetic shoulders, its very difficult to things when you do not know how to do them and have no experience to rely on. 

Am going to just do my best to close the book of dating for good, for better of worse the world has shown me how good it can be but then reminded how unattainable it is for me.

[normal person]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Its all very good and well but put yourself in the shoes of someone who has no experience and every single dating experience you do have is negative and then tell me I played the situation incorrectly based on those facts? [...] The reason I did what I did was I just wanted to be the person I am and see if she actually wanted to spend some time with me which would then consider a decent enough base to work from.

Yeah, but presumably the reason you posted and asked for advice here is to get the benefit of other peoples' experience, and I'm sure collectively the responders here have decades of it. You got an overwhelming amount of answers that suggested you not try to just be her friend and hope that she likes you, because anyone who's been there knows it doesn't work like that. Yet you chose to overlook it because you insisted you were happier with her friendship as a consolation prize.

So while people here are trying to be encouraging and helpful, it's pretty frustrating when you seek good advice from people with experience, get it, ignore it because you're "happier the way things are," then complain that you're unhappy with how things turned out. This is not the first, second, or third time you've concluded a thread with "I'm doing things my way and I'm much happier as a result," only to lament the current state of things. 

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am just going to concede I simply cannot get this right from the point of view I don't have the skills and the experience. I am never going to fly  a 747 so I just need to concede I am never going to be able to date for the same reasons.

Here's the thing, you asked how to fly a 747 and got a crowd sourced manual from people who'd done it. Then you decided you'd rather stick to your scooter because you were more familiar and comfortable with it, now you're sad that the scooter didn't take you as far as the 747. Then you say "well what do you expect when I don't have any experience flying 747s?" What'd you expect doing things your way, and why'd you expect it? Why'd you expect that your course of action based on limited experience would trump the course of action based on a lot of it? I really want to see you succeed, but you're not making it easy for yourself, or anyone with an interest in helping you. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by normal person

[Foxhall]

Your getting a bit closer buddy all the same,

sex can be overrated too, there is something fulfilling too about brotherly sisterly type friendships, intimate conversations, its not all about getting in the knickers

your holding conversations and bonding anyway which is half the battle,

to be a bit braver is your next target, make the conversations a bit more spicy and so on, and forget about the fear of rejection,

do you really care what they think of you?

I think it was Sean Connery who said a man never truly understand the mind of a woman, so I would'nt get as stressed out about it,

just enjoy being in their company, look on it as fun and you'll have success yet before you are 40.

 

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

51 minutes ago, normal person said:

Yeah, but presumably the reason you posted and asked for advice here is to get the benefit of other peoples' experience, and I'm sure collectively the responders here have decades of it. You got an overwhelming amount of answers that suggested you not try to just be her friend and hope that she likes you, because anyone who's been there knows it doesn't work like that. Yet you chose to overlook it because you insisted you were happier with her friendship as a consolation prize.

So while people here are trying to be encouraging and helpful, it's pretty frustrating when you seek good advice from people with experience, get it, ignore it because you're "happier the way things are," then complain that you're unhappy with how things turned out. This is not the first, second, or third time you've concluded a thread with "I'm doing things my way and I'm much happier as a result," only to lament the current state of things. 

Here's the thing, you asked how to fly a 747 and got a crowd sourced manual from people who'd done it. Then you decided you'd rather stick to your scooter because you were more familiar and comfortable with it, now you're sad that the scooter didn't take you as far as the 747. Then you say "well what do you expect when I don't have any experience flying 747s?" What'd you expect doing things your way, and why'd you expect it? Why'd you expect that your course of action based on limited experience would trump the course of action based on a lot of it? I really want to see you succeed, but you're not making it easy for yourself, or anyone with an interest in helping you. 

Would suggest with respect you find someone else to help because I am done for good. There is nothing for me in this game. I simply don't understand how it works, what to do, what to say, one person says so that another says do that.

I wish it was as easy as following a manual but it isn't. Instead of hiding away from it is best just face the facts there is nothing attractive about me, there has never been. I'll always be second best to the same type of guys while never being one of them.

I'll just crawl back into the corner I came out from, it was great but guys like me never win unless with just accept whoever will accept us and I'll never be that sort of guy.

All people tell me "just be her friend" these people have known me for over a decade but maybe that advice is actually just a tacit way of saying how low my value is. 

I really just cannot win at this. Only consolation, watching the game is free.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

Your getting a bit closer buddy all the same,

sex can be overrated too, there is something fulfilling too about brotherly sisterly type friendships, intimate conversations, its not all about getting in the knickers

your holding conversations and bonding anyway which is half the battle,

to be a bit braver is your next target, make the conversations a bit more spicy and so on, and forget about the fear of rejection,

do you really care what they think of you?

I think it was Sean Connery who said a man never truly understand the mind of a woman, so I would'nt get as stressed out about it,

just enjoy being in their company, look on it as fun and you'll have success yet before you are 40.

 

 

 

 

I am no closer now than I was 20 years ago when I got rejected flatly when I did ask someone out.

Just the same useless valueless guy I have always been.

[Weezy1973]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am no closer now than I was 20 years ago when I got rejected flatly when I did ask someone out.

Just the same useless valueless guy I have always been.

The reason you’re no closer is because you’re not learning from your mistakes. 
 

Check out Ray Dalio’s principles for success on YouTube. He explains that if you want a great life, you will make mistakes / have failures, but the key to growth is learning from this mistakes. 
 

You’re no further ahead now because you  adamantly refuse to learn. You just wallow in defeat as if the outcome is predetermined. And, as I’ve stated many times, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The core of this is your low self worth which developed from childhood. But that has created defense mechanisms that have completely distorted your view of reality. It’s an attempt to protect your ego. There are so many ways this can manifest itself. For example some people, often women,  will find themselves only attracted to emotionally unavailable men. And when the inevitable rejection / failure happens, they get to “blame” the man. But at the core is their lack of self worth so they stick to men that they can’t get close to, because in their minds they don’t have any worth so if a man actually were to be emotionally available and they truly connected, they would be rejected. 
 

What you’ve created is two pronged:

1. You’re only attracted to women that aren’t available to you. Like “K” who was already in a relationship or this woman who only saw you as a friend.

2. You reject all women that might be attracted to you. The “reject them before they can reject me” playbook. 
 

Now none of this is conscious. You’re genuinely attracted to certain women over others, and understandably have no desire to date someone you’re not attracted to. Nobody would. But I also think there’s a third prong which is:

3. You think that by dating a “Stacy” (like an Instagram model for example), you’ll magically feel worthy and all your insecurities will vanish. 
 

And this is the core of your continuous loop of failure. And because you have no desire to learn, take risks, do things differently, it’s just the same cycle over and over. And it ends in you feeling like crap, being lonely, perhaps even falling into depression. At some point you’re going to have to commit to changing what you’re doing.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

The reason you’re no closer is because you’re not learning from your mistakes. 
 

Check out Ray Dalio’s principles for success on YouTube. He explains that if you want a great life, you will make mistakes / have failures, but the key to growth is learning from this mistakes. 
 

You’re no further ahead now because you  adamantly refuse to learn. You just wallow in defeat as if the outcome is predetermined. And, as I’ve stated many times, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The core of this is your low self worth which developed from childhood. But that has created defense mechanisms that have completely distorted your view of reality. It’s an attempt to protect your ego. There are so many ways this can manifest itself. For example some people, often women,  will find themselves only attracted to emotionally unavailable men. And when the inevitable rejection / failure happens, they get to “blame” the man. But at the core is their lack of self worth so they stick to men that they can’t get close to, because in their minds they don’t have any worth so if a man actually were to be emotionally available and they truly connected, they would be rejected. 
 

What you’ve created is two pronged:

1. You’re only attracted to women that aren’t available to you. Like “K” who was already in a relationship or this woman who only saw you as a friend.

2. You reject all women that might be attracted to you. The “reject them before they can reject me” playbook. 
 

Now none of this is conscious. You’re genuinely attracted to certain women over others, and understandably have no desire to date someone you’re not attracted to. Nobody would. But I also think there’s a third prong which is:

3. You think that by dating a “Stacy” (like an Instagram model for example), you’ll magically feel worthy and all your insecurities will vanish. 
 

And this is the core of your continuous loop of failure. And because you have no desire to learn, take risks, do things differently, it’s just the same cycle over and over. And it ends in you feeling like crap, being lonely, perhaps even falling into depression. At some point you’re going to have to commit to changing what you’re doing.

I just have no idea what to do so it's just better to just do nothing. I don't know how to deduce anyone, I don't know if they are interested, I never find anyone I am interested in so honestly the problems are totally fundamental add to which who would choose someone with the issues, certainly nobody I like.

When everything is a loss it's just not worth it, is it really worth it, yea maybe with someone I really like but they never like me. So add to all those issues the fact I have zero value, if I did I could say at 36 I'd have had some success. 

You expect me to believe I can but frankly there is no evidence that I can. Doesn't matter what I do, this time I actually tried on the basis of forming some connection.

[normal person]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

All people tell me "just be her friend" these people have known me for over a decade but maybe that advice is actually just a tacit way of saying how low my value is. 

So are you simply upset that you got conflicting advice and didn't know which to take? Because it sounds like you followed the advice of those people (which coincidentally sounds like something you preferred doing anyways), which in fairness to people posting here, is not something I think anyone suggested -- quite the opposite. People here spent a lot of time and energy giving you good advice that you ignored -- if you were just going to take the biased advice of your friends anyways, why ask anyone here if not to try and confirm what you already thought/hoped? It sounds more like you took the comfortable route knowing that it'd be an easier ride, and now want to claim ignorance about what you should've done, even though people here told you otherwise in droves. If you've gone the way your friends suggested for so long and it hasn't worked, and you did it again anyways, then it wasn't simply "confusion" on your part, it was unwillingness and fear. You can't absolve yourself from this that way, and you're smart enough to know it. 

Maybe the reason you have such perceived "low value" is that you're doing precisely the things that manifest it, and eschewing the tactics that could change it and create opportunity for you. Would it have been a guaranteed success going another route? Nothing's certain. But would it have been a step in the right direction which may have furthered your chances down the road, or given you some confidence or insight on how to act in the future? I'd bet on it. Making excuses, cowering in fear, complacency, and bitterness all scream "low value." Fearlessness, confidence, ambition, persistence, adaptability, etc are "high value" traits in my mind. 

 

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Would suggest with respect you find someone else to help because I am done for good.

Is that to suggest you're done with these threads as well? 

[ZA Dater]

34 minutes ago, normal person said:

 

Maybe the reason you have such perceived "low value" is that you're doing precisely the things that manifest it, and eschewing the tactics that could change it and create opportunity for you. Would it have been a guaranteed success going another route? Nothing's certain. But would it have been a step in the right direction which may have furthered your chances down the road, or given you some confidence or insight on how to act in the future? I'd bet on it. Making excuses, cowering in fear, complacency, and bitterness all scream "low value." Fearlessness, confidence, ambition, persistence, adaptability, etc are "high value" traits in my my mind.

I am simply just tired, I did a lot differently, opened myself up because I felt comfortable, tried to be more confident, less serious.

High value is flirty, somehow showing sexual interest, good looks, financial wealth. It's always the same so I am simply not going to bother. I am never going to be able to compete against that, all I have is kindness, selflessness, generosity and those don't count for anything, getting someone into bed, I don't know how to do that, I don't know how to show interest. 

So yeah time to just sit back and just live with it or try to. I'll just always be in a loss situation so may as well just own it and try accept it. 

I cannot think of any scenario which gets me a win.

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I am simply just tired, I did a lot differently, opened myself up because I felt comfortable, tried to be more confident, less serious.

Well if you did more than you were previously comfortable with, then you did take a baby step in the right direction, but was it all you could have done? Was it a big enough step to make any real difference, or was it just enough to say so? Look, if you really are trying, then I commend you, and you should be proud and continue to take more steps going forward -- but I'm not sold that you're trying via ways that will advance the situation in any meaningful way, and that's the problem you keep coming back to: you just want to do things your way, with your prescribed comfort level, and hope that they work out. And it doesn't really matter to me, but it should matter to you if you're actually serious about making a change, that this is not affective. Did you at least learn anything? Do you think it's going to be yet easier to be more comfortable, confident, etc next time? 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

High value is flirty, somehow showing sexual interest, good looks, financial wealth.

Plenty of men flirt and show interest. In fact, too many do. That doesn't make someone high value. High value people can flirt but also they typically have interest shown in them and choose who they want. And yes, I agree good looks and wealth are typically high value traits, but plenty of men are average looking or below, with mediocre or bad financial situations and they don't have these issues. It's time for you to stop using this as an excuse, it's myopic. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

all I have is kindness, selflessness, generosity and those don't count for anything,

They count for a lot, given a lot of other circumstances and variables, and those aren't the things that precluded you from dating this woman. She didn't say "I'd really like to be with you, ZA, but you're just too kind, selfless, and generous, and I hate those things." My bet is that she's already assessed your potential value as a partner and thought "Well he is kind, selfless, and generous, which is great, it's too bad he's also unwilling or scared to be a man in any way that inspires romance or desire in me, because those things are important to me." Stop acting like she didn't like you because you're simply too selfless. A selfless, brave person and selfless cowardly person are a universe apart in this arena. The problem isn't the qualities you have, it's that you think that what you do have should be all you need and you get mad and bitter that it isn't, and you don't want to do what's necessary to acquire what you do need. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

So yeah time to just sit back and just live with it or try to. I'll just always be in a loss situation so may as well just own it and try accept it. 

Self fulfilling prophecy.

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I cannot think of any scenario which gets me a win.

You've gotten plenty of advice about how to get closer to a win, but you forever want to travel down the path that will guarantee you a loss.

Edited March 15, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, normal person said:

Well if you did more than you were previously comfortable with, then you did take a baby step in the right direction, but was it all you could have done? Was it a big enough step to make any real difference, or was it just enough to say so? Look, if you really are trying, then I commend you, and you should be proud and continue to take more steps going forward -- but I'm not sold that you're trying via ways that will advance the situation in any meaningful way, and that's the problem you keep coming back to: you just want to do things your way, with your prescribed comfort level, and hope that they work out. And it doesn't really matter to me, but it should matter to you if you're actually serious about making a change, that this is not affective. Did you at least learn anything? Do you think it's going to be yet easier to be more comfortable, confident, etc next time? 

Plenty of men flirt and show interest. In fact, too many do. That doesn't make someone high value. High value people can flirt but also they typically have interest shown in them and choose who they want. And yes, I agree good looks and wealth are typically high value traits, but plenty of men are average looking or below, with mediocre or bad financial situations and they don't have these issues. It's time for you to stop using this as an excuse, it's myopic. 

They count for a lot, given a lot of other circumstances and variables, and those aren't the things that precluded you from dating this woman. She didn't say "I'd really like to be with you, ZA, but you're just too kind, selfless, and generous, and I hate those things." My bet is that she's already assessed your potential value as a partner and thought "Well he is kind, selfless, and generous, which is great, it's too bad he's also unwilling or scared to be a man in any way that inspires romance or desire in me, because those things are important to me." Stop acting like she didn't like you because you're simply too selfless. A selfless, brave person and selfless cowardly person are a universe apart in this arena. 

Self fulfilling prophecy.

You've gotten plenty of advice about how to get closer to a win, but you forever want to travel down the path that will guarantee you a loss.

There are just no more opportunities. The things that worked and lined up here won't happen again, I have waited for over 20 years for them to line up like this so it's a major loss.

What you don't get I simply don't know how I could have done more, I don't know how guys get it right, what they say, what mannerisms. I have spent years going out seeing how guys get this right but really what they do I cannot do because fundamentally I am not that person. For me all I can do is be polite, friendly, try to be warm and take interest but along comes Mr sexual, Mr successful, Mr good looking and I can't compete with that. Add Mr experienced and I am at an even bigger loss.

My fundamental belief has always been to work with what I have buts never enough even when I actually do get along well, when I am not shy, when I do open up z when I do show confidence when I really try so why bother really, I can't think of any reason to continue because I can't erase two decades of no experience. It does matter and it cannot be faked.

Bottom line I am not good enough and never will be. That's not a prophecy it's a fact because if I was I wouldn't be nearly 37 and never dated anyone.