Can this work

[elaine567]

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

why the sudden need to attend this, under pretense of a day with his dad....yeah sure

The sudden need is because the object of his attraction is going to be there and it is an event to be seen at...
 I get it you don't like the guy, but desperate??? comical???
He is just doing what guys do when they date.
Women like to be wanted, they want to spend oodles of time with someone they like to be with.
Why wouldn't he want to be at the event, why wouldn't she want him to be there?
Had you been a bit more "desperate" and not so stand offish and fearful of rejection, then she may be dating you today...

He is uncomfortable around you as you make him feel uncomfortable.
You may think that makes you look superior and endear you to her, but no, there are no brownie points for that.
He is her choice, by negating her choice, you become the "enemy" in her mind... not him.

Edited March 17, 2021 by elaine567
added quote

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The sudden need is because the object of his attraction is going to be there and it is an event to be seen at...
 I get it you don't like the guy, but desperate??? comical???
He is just doing what guys do when they date.
Women like to be wanted, they want to spend oodles of time with someone they like to be with.
Why wouldn't he want to be at the event, why wouldn't she want him to be there?
Had you been a bit more "desperate" and not so stand offish and fearful of rejection, then she may be dating you today...

He is uncomfortable around you as you make him feel uncomfortable.
You may think that makes you look superior and endear you to her, but no, there are no brownie points for that.
He is her choice, by negating her choice, you become the "enemy" in her mind... not him.
 

I do not actually care, to my eyes he just seems actually quite pathetic and desperate. I have no issue with the guy he is extremely low confidence the times I have met him, difficult to converse with on all those occasions. He does not care about the event he just wants to be there because he is there and show off, that's all he actually wants to do, every single thing this guy does is to show off "this is what I have". 

She does not seem to care if he is there or not, not like she has begged me to include him. Stand offish, please that is not me on a good day, I actually planned to ask her out on a proper date after this event but needless to say I wont do that now. What she does enjoy is reading and she knows I write so you know what I am going to write my story, warts and all, one of the few comforts I get being a dateless near 37yo virgin is the fact I feel better writing about it. 

I'd have been rejected anyway when faced with the onslaught this guy is unleashing, he with the biggest wallet wins remember....NEVER have I see this not the be the case.

I am actually really normal around him, around her I find more confidence so I can be a lot more outgoing, far me than he can so I guess that reflects. 

Maybe what does not always reflect here, I can be very hard nosed, I have taken the punches and been kicked to the ground in life so very little actually gets to me. The loss here is predictable as the fact the sun will rise tomorrow morning, everything I do with dating is a loss. 

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

he just seems actually quite pathetic and desperate. I have no issue with the guy he is extremely low confidence the times I have met him, difficult to converse with on all those occasions

Why do you think she likes him? 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

he just wants to be there because he is there and show off, that's all he actually wants to do, every single thing this guy does is to show off "this is what I have". 

I'm curious as to why you you like a woman who likes a man who acts like this. From what I know about you and even the way you're describing things, don't you find his attitude and behavior off putting? And if so, why don't you find her affinity for, or tolerance of that behavior, similarly off putting? It just seems a bit hypocritical that you have disdain for men who try and win women over with wealth, materialism, etc, yet you hold a woman who's apparently won over by it, or unperturbed by it, in high regard. What do you think that says about her and why isn't it similarly pathetic to you?

Edited March 17, 2021 by normal person

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, normal person said:

Why do you think she likes him? 

I'm curious as to why you you like a woman who likes a man who acts like this. From what I know about you and even the way you're describing things, don't you find his attitude and behavior off putting? And if so, why don't you find her affinity for, or tolerance of that behavior, similarly off putting? It just seems a bit hypocritical that you have disdain for men who try and win women over with wealth, materialism, etc, yet you hold a woman who's apparently won over by it, or unperturbed by it, in high regard. What do you think that says about her and why isn't it similarly pathetic to you?

She has lost her husband, been through a really tough time, her friends have done an amazing job selling this guy to her as a catch, me, I'd wonder why at 47 he is still single and why he has no kids. I'd wonder some more at his over eagerness but she is not in that space, she is not really besotted by him but seems to like him nonetheless. I cant judge people on who they like but I can judge them on how they behave, she has only ever been nice to me, nicer than any other lady I have ever spent time with. That buys her significant goodwill with me and she keeps chatting to and involving me which I guess is nice

I am not sure she really sees what I see because well its so long since she has dated. In some respects I do find it staggering she cant see what I do or she does and just ignores it. he is trying so hard to get every single person in her life to buy into him that for me is off putting enough. I have been though the life of hard knocks so I tend to look more carefully at situations despite what this forum may think.

Ultimately the role I excel in apparently is being everyone's shoulder to cry on or oracle of common sense, primarily because I just remove emotion from decision making. 

Exactly the way he is playing this game is why I wont ever succeed because I find it cringeworthy in the extreme. If that level of basic begging is needed then I wont get anywhere at all ever.

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately the role I excel in apparently is being everyone's shoulder to cry on or oracle of common sense, primarily because I just remove emotion from decision making. 

And that is another reason why you are unlikely to succeed in dating, as dating and relationships are all about emotion and feelings.
A guy who presents himself as an automaton is unlikely to get any juices flowing.
Great as a stoic friend, a mentor, an advisor, but who really wants to live with that?

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

And that is another reason why you are unlikely to succeed in dating, as dating and relationships are all about emotion and feelings.
A guy who presents himself as an automaton is unlikely to get any juices flowing.
Great as a stoic friend, a mentor, an advisor, but who really wants to live with that?

I accept that. Its fine. I do not show much because I just get hurt so best to show none at all. This time I did open up but what good did it really do me? None at all.

There is nothing passionate about me really, workman like yes, passionate no. I am just going to own who I am with the significant pitfalls which come with it. Again its about accepting, I have tried for 20 years, its enough now. The total defeated feeling simply is not worth it and the very brief good moments are too infrequent.

As they say "stick to what you are good at"

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Now what do I do, if I allow I appear weak.

It’s the kind and respectful thing to do. 

It’s not about you. It’s not a matter of weakness or strength. They are together, they want to be together, and she is asking as her friend that you allow him to come to the gathering. It seems a reasonable request and a reasonable thing to do.

Edited March 17, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It’s the kind and respectful thing to do. 

It cant be done as I am fully subscribed and he not a member of this group in any case. I dislike saying no but in this instance there are no other alternatives.

As an aside kind and respectful are seldom ever qualities shown toward me but be that as it may.

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

As an aside kind and respectful are seldom ever qualities shown toward me but be that as it may.

It seems to me that she has been exceptionally kind and respectful to you. 

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It seems to me that she has been exceptionally kind and respectful to you. 

A very rare occurrence indeed. 

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

She has lost her husband, been through a really tough time, her friends have done an amazing job selling this guy to her as a catch, 

Yeah, but you often talk about how hard of a time you've had in life, your friends sell girls on you, and you maintain whatever standard or code you have without using "I've had a hard time so I can overlook all the things that make me wretch." She's doing the opposite, it seems. Or those things don't make her wretch?

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I'd wonder why at 47 he is still single and why he has no kids.

To be fair, you're in an almost identical situation, if not a less favorable one, and you seem to think you're a much better match. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I cant judge people on who they like but I can judge them on how they behave, 

Do you think investing time and emotion in someone so obviously questionable to you could be considered "behavior?" If someone I knew was so taken with someone that was a desperate, pathetic, showoff, I couldn't help but question their judgment. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

she has only ever been nice to me, nicer than any other lady I have ever spent time with. That buys her significant goodwill with me and she keeps chatting to and involving me which I guess is nice

That's great, but it in general it reads like you'd be willing to overlook a lot of things if someone's nice to you. I'm not saying it's necessarily an issue in this particular scenario, but for your life as a whole, that seems kind of sad. Have you ever tried to unpack this on a psychological level? With a professional?

Anyways, I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, it's just that the situation is very interesting to me: the disparity between how you see this guy and how she sees him, how you process her admiration of him, how you rationalize it seemingly because she's nice to you.

29 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

As an aside kind and respectful are seldom ever qualities shown toward me but be that as it may [...] A very rare occurrence indeed. 

For what it's worth, strangers here have given you an encyclopedia's worth of advice over the years because they wanted to help, to no benefit of their own. It's not all out of boredom, either -- people here are invested in you and your story at this point. I'm not sure if I can ever recall you expressing thanks or gratefulness, or at least nowhere near commensurate to the amount of effort put forth by others, which I'm sure at this point is at least hundreds of man hours.  I'm not saying I or anyone else is in need or want of thanks, but in this context, the irony wasn't lost on me. Just a thought I had. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by normal person

[jspice]

40 minutes ago, normal person said:

 

For what it's worth, strangers here have given you an encyclopedia's worth of advice over the years because they wanted to help, to no benefit of their own. It's not all out of boredom, either -- people here are invested in you and your story at this point. I'm not sure if I can ever recall you expressing thanks or gratefulness, or at least nowhere near commensurate to the amount of effort put forth by others, which I'm sure at this point is at least hundreds of man hours.  I'm not saying I or anyone else is in need or want of thanks, but in this context, the irony wasn't lost on me. Just a thought I had. 

Never. 

[normal person]

34 minutes ago, jspice said:

Never. 

Right? I mean, if he's so starved of human kindness that he'll practically deify this girl for talking to him, it does kind of put in a bad taste in my mouth when he asks for the benefit of others' experiences, only to fall back in "well in my experience, women only like rich playboys, I can't be that, so you're wrong and I won't listen to you."

ZA - I don't doubt that you've had a hard life or that people have treated you unfairly, but I think you've been shown a lot of kindness and patience here in a totally one-sided relationship with a lot posters. I think it'd be advantageous for you to at least acknowledge and value the investment put in you so people don't totally feel like their time has been wasted. I think it'd also be helpful if you finally ditched the hyperbole and dramatizations, or were at least more considerate of some nuance. If you honestly thought you were 100% right about all these things, the severity and hopelessness of the situations, you'd stop posting about it. But as it stands, it seems like you still want to post about it but argue down most attempts to convince you otherwise, which often feels like a waste of time. It makes it feel like you'd rather simply win an argument than graciously accept a new point of view that you can learn from and apply. So what's the point in that, for either you or anyone attempting to help? I can't help but wonder if this sort of thing permeates into your life offline.

Edited March 17, 2021 by normal person

[jspice]

9 minutes ago, normal person said:

Right? I mean, if he's so starved of human kindness that he'll practically deify this girl for talking to him, it does kind of put in a bad taste in my mouth when he asks for the benefit of others' experiences, only to fall back in "well in my experience, women only like rich playboys, I can't be that, so you're wrong and I won't listen to you."

ZA - I don't doubt that you've had a hard life or that people have treated you unfairly, but I think you've been shown a lot of kindness and patience here in a totally one-sided relationship with a lot posters. I think it'd be advantageous for you to at least acknowledge and value the investment put in you so people don't totally feel like their time has been wasted. I think it'd also be helpful if you finally ditched the hyperbole and dramatizations, or were at least more considerate of some nuance. If you honestly thought you were 100% right about all these things, the severity and hopelessness of the situations, you'd stop posting about it. But as it stands, it seems like you still want to post about it but argue down most attempts to convince you otherwise, which often feels like a waste of time. So what's the point in that, for either you or anyone attempting to help? I can't help but wonder if this sort of thing permeates into your life offline.

He did the same thing just a few posts back. 
literally asked for advice, and when a poster or two gave advice l, he said “I’m not doing that” 🤷🏽‍♀️

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, jspice said:

Never. 

I have thanked people in this very thread as I have done in other threads too.

Despite the inevitable outcome the advice has been quite helpful as it shows what has worked for others and yes I have tried some of it.

[ZA Dater]

32 minutes ago, jspice said:

He did the same thing just a few posts back. 
literally asked for advice, and when a poster or two gave advice l, he said “I’m not doing that” 🤷🏽‍♀️

You right I am not dating people I find unattractive. Why would anyone possibly want to do such a thing. So no that advice to me is irrelevant as it comes out of the "well I wouldn't do it you should" school of thought.

[normal person]

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have thanked people in this very thread as I have done in other threads too.

Maybe you're right, I don't have the patience to go through and look. However these threads often feel more combative than they are appreciated. 

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You right I am not dating people I find unattractive. Why would anyone possibly want to do such a thing. So no that advice to me is irrelevant as it comes out of the "well I wouldn't do it you should" school of thought.

I tend to agree with you on the first bit. But on the other hand, you also get good advice from people who've employed these strategies and attitudes, and you dismiss it just as easily. 

[ZA Dater]

46 minutes ago, normal person said:

Right? I mean, if he's so starved of human kindness that he'll practically deify this girl for talking to him, it does kind of put in a bad taste in my mouth when he asks for the benefit of others' experiences, only to fall back in "well in my experience, women only like rich playboys, I can't be that, so you're wrong and I won't listen to you."

ZA - I don't doubt that you've had a hard life or that people have treated you unfairly, but I think you've been shown a lot of kindness and patience here in a totally one-sided relationship with a lot posters. I think it'd be advantageous for you to at least acknowledge and value the investment put in you so people don't totally feel like their time has been wasted. I think it'd also be helpful if you finally ditched the hyperbole and dramatizations, or were at least more considerate of some nuance. If you honestly thought you were 100% right about all these things, the severity and hopelessness of the situations, you'd stop posting about it. But as it stands, it seems like you still want to post about it but argue down most attempts to convince you otherwise, which often feels like a waste of time. It makes it feel like you'd rather simply win an argument than graciously accept a new point of view that you can learn from and apply. So what's the point in that, for either you or anyone attempting to help? I can't help but wonder if this sort of thing permeates into your life offline.

The only advice I need now is how to find peace with a lonely life. I am done with dating, accepted I cannot do it and the outcomes will never be anything but rejection or worse people I find unattractive find me attractive.

It's odd because you have been the champion here of the " the most resources" wins and yet now you want to disagree when I with my own experience validate that point of view?

You have never had to struggle to get any sort of attention from ladies you like, for me it's a never ending struggle so it's time to end that struggle. Sure, it will not be easy and it does not feel very nice but neither do the prospect of more of the same or settling so on balance I might find more peace by giving up completely.

I have always lost out for reasons of looks, resources, personality, fun and any other criteria you choose to name, I am not being dramatic just truthful. If there was anything good about me I'd have had some success by now. Fortunately when I look in the mirror I am pretty happy with what I see. 

[jspice]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not really know to be honest she still sends me long voice notes and now this guy wants to come to the event I am arranging.....however she says its totally up to me if I can accommodate him, no pressure on me at all, the arrangement remains the same with her spending time with me.

Now what do I do, if I refuse (which I can on the basis there is no space at the event) I look bitter, if I allow I appear weak.

I really do not know what to do. What is apparent is this guy is pulling out every bit of stop to show off what he has and now trying to get into the same event,  not because he wants to go to the event but because I suspect I might actually be seen as competition even though I am not....

Advice please.

THIS. 

The very next post you shot down the advice. 

[ZA Dater]

Just now, normal person said:

Maybe you're right, I don't have the patience to go through and look. However these threads often feel more combative than they are appreciated. 

I tend to agree with you on the first bit. But on the other hand, you also get good advice from people who've employed these strategies and attitudes, and you dismiss it just as easily. 

How is dating people I do not find attractive a good strategy? Where is the upside for me it's just settling, I'd rather be defeated and have nothing than something I do not want.

I go out on date's to be the best version of me, when I did OLD I put up the best pictures I could find, changed bios often and used multiple platforms. Honestly what more.

[elaine567]

Just now, normal person said:

You right I am not dating people I find unattractive. Why would anyone possibly want to do such a thing.

Maybe when they finally realise they are not attracting anyone they find attractive, nor are ever likely to, OR they have realised their dating expectations are totally unachievable or nonsensical.

[Weezy1973]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You right I am not dating people I find unattractive.

Nobody is saying for you to date people you find unattractive yet you keep spewing this sentence as if this is the advice.

I’ve said to get into situations where you meet the same people over and over which gives the opportunity for people to grow more attractive to you over time. So by the time you’re dating, you actually are genuinely attracted to them! 
 

I think it’s clear to everybody at this point that the type of women you’re attracted to on a superficial level are not interested in you. Beautiful women want beautiful men. Fair enough. So your only chance is to give “growing attraction” a chance. But now’s your queue for saying “no woman has ever given me a chance, so why should I.”  How do you know? Maybe this woman gave you chance but the attraction didn’t grow. Just because someone gave you the chance doesn’t mean that you did grow on them over time. 

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The only advice I need now is how to find peace with a lonely life.

I’d say living a lonely life is not a good option. Hard to come to peace with it. Living a life staying single is a fine option if a relationship is out of the question. Most people would develop close friendships and become active in their community. We’re social animals. Being alone meant death in our evolutionary past (although not now) so we’re driven to connect with other people. You don’t need to be in a romantic relationship to do that.

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

It cant be done as I am fully subscribed and he not a member of this group in any case. I dislike saying no but in this instance there are no other alternatives.

You tell her that the event is fully subscribed, but there are sometimes last minute cancellations in which case he’ll be first on the list to get the spot. 

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

" the most resources" wins and yet now you want to disagree when I with my own experience validate that point of view?

Per an earlier post of mine a few pages back, "I won't lie and say money, looks, status, etc aren't very important to lots of people, but for you to suggest it's all that matters to everyone is quite a reach [...]" Revisit the post. You still want to make things out like only the richest, best looking men have any success, and that 99% of people don't end up with the best looking, well monied people, and the numbers don't even begin to add up. Will you have a better choice in partner the richer, more attractive you are? Absolutely. But it doesn't mean billions of other people don't fit in the spectrum somewhere else and still manage to find happiness.

Also, unless I've been mislead, you are successful. You willingly put your picture as a thumbnail, presumably because you're not ashamed of it, and you look handsome. Relative to an awful lot of people, particularly in your country, you are in an upper echelon of society. You've got money to own and/or drive supercars, you've got the time affluence to post here endlessly, you clearly aren't working in the diamond mines from dawn to dusk for pennies a day, sleeping in Soweto. Without being presumptuous, it seems you're pretty well insulated from the all the horrible things I hear happening in your country and you may even be living a bit of the high life. So someone else being better off or better looking than you doesn't discount the fact that you're still in an immeasurably more favorable situation than countless people who've done what you're trying to do. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You have never had to struggle to get any sort of attention from ladies you like,

Yeah, but that doesn't mean my advice can't be applied to you because keeping a woman's attention and affection without deceit or underhandedness often requires a lot of the same mindset being endorsed here too. And guess what? Even if plenty of woman wanted to give me attention, plenty of those eventually thought I wasn't worth more of it for whatever reason, for both things within my control and things beyond it. I've learned what attitudes and behaviors are appealing and which aren't. A lot of it is counterintuitive and illogical -- for example, there are times when women probably thought I was weak for being tactful, honorable, not pushy, much like yourself. I may not have been in your exact shoes but that doesn't mean we aren't running the same race. Also, having a woman pay attention to you is not a magic bullet that will make you happy in the long term. Imagine if this woman became romantically interested in you for a week or two, you got to go out, hold hands, sleep with each other, etc. Then soon after, she decides you aren't the guy for her and ghosts you. While you might be proud of your initial "success," eventually you'd be back here just as miserable as you were before. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

If there was anything good about me I'd have had some success by now. 

It's not that there's nothing good. From my perception, it's more that few women are going to care about those good things if you conduct yourself in ways that aren't conducive to romance. For example, your willingness and eagerness to just be this woman's friend makes you seem weak and desperate. It doesn't matter how nice, kind, receptive, whatever you are to her, the perceived weakness and the "just happy you spend time with me because no one else will" attitude you broadcast will likely keep her from ever seriously considering you as a suitor.

All the good things you have would count for something if you didn't instantly negate them with other behaviors and attitudes people here are trying to rid you of. The here issue doesn't seem like there's nothing good, it's that you're hell bent on refusing to jettison what's bad. I'm sure she really does appreciate your friendship -- your reliability, your trustworthiness, etc. But as I've tried to explain to you multiple times, that alone, or that in combination with other behaviors that void your sex appeal, probably isn't going to move you from just friends to something else. You have money and you're not an ogre, but in terms of her desire, you're yet to show her you're a man. Until then, the other stuff doesn't matter.

Edited March 17, 2021 by normal person

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not dating people I find unattractive.

I don’t disagree, people need to be attracted to their partners. But, as has been said time and again in this discussion... when you set your bar at young and model beautiful, a woman who brings the “wow” factor to you and every other man she meets... you are bound to be disappointed by dating. 

It’s like the saying “you can be right, or you can be happy.” Right now, you are intent on being “right.” And that kind of rigidity in thinking is not going to bring you any kind of happiness...