Can this work

[Yosemite]

7 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

We are staying in a hotel. She has already told him she is spending the weekend with me

Are you staying in the same hotel room?

[normal person]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its going to be the super successful guy who has everything, the one she tells me is a "good one" and the one who her friends wax lyrical about. Why would it not be that guy?

He's also not shooting himself in the foot by removing himself from the competition via a "woe is me, I never had a chance, I have nothing to offer" attitude. Even if all other things were the same between you -- money, looks, experience -- in her eyes, he's a lightyear ahead of you on this alone. 

Just now, ZA Dater said:

if you had been rejected for 20 odd years with no success you would not be jumping up and down with optimism either,

No one's disagreeing with you; no one's saying you haven't had a hard time. But what people are saying is until you dig yourself out of the dirt and change your attitudes and behaviors, you will continue to suffer the same fate. Having a hard time is irrelevant, no one's going to overlook their own desires in service of "fairness." No one will say "He's weak and defeated, but he's had a hard time so it'd be unfair not to give him a chance." No one is under any obligation to do that, and no one will. That's what you need to understand. The only way out is recognize it and deal with it appropriately. You've had everyone's sympathy this whole time, presumably even this woman's, and nothing's changed for you. So maybe it's time to try another angle.  

[Acacia98]

On 3/19/2021 at 4:57 PM, ZA Dater said:

My point of view on many things is not shared by others. I have seen a lot of things, met a lot of different people so while I can sit at a luxury resort I can also relate to the guy who is serving me by dinner and his circumstance.

(...)

 I like knowing what is going on around me and the word around me 

(...)

I am often called serious on this forum but I can also sit and do baby talk for an hour or talk to a 7 year old. 

🙂

I wish you'd talk about yourself this way more often. I know a few women who would be attracted to the guy you describe here.

I think maybe you were born into the "wrong" community. You might have different experiences dating women from a community/culture in which character traits like yours were more generally valued.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, normal person said:

 

No one's disagreeing with you; no one's saying you haven't had a hard time. But what people are saying is until you dig yourself out of the dirt and change your attitudes and behaviors, you will continue to suffer the same fate. Having a hard time is irrelevant, no one's going to overlook their own desires in service of "fairness." No one will say "He's weak and defeated, but he's had a hard time so it'd be unfair not to give him a chance." No one is under any obligation to do that, and no one will. That's what you need to understand. The only way out is recognize it and deal with it appropriately. You've had everyone's sympathy this whole time, presumably even this woman's, and nothing's changed for you. So maybe it's time to try another angle.  

With respect he has the winning hand here so why remove himself, I am no competition at all and even my own friends think she is better off picking him over me.

Why would someone to to a restaurant with a chef who has no experience when they can go to a Michelin star restaurant, they wouldn't. So it's lovely for me to say ok cool and make myself feel good by thinking I have as much of a chance as him, the reality isn't so and my track record supports that. Again I think some success would probably give me some belief that I could but that's never realistically going to arrive. I have had no sympathy from friends they just carry on with their player lifestyle.

The reality for me is those people on dating sites are the only people that want me and I don't want them so there isn't much scope for success there at all to try and boost my confidence.

Nobody gives anyone a chance in dating, just how it works and I accept that.

There is nothing else I can do barring to simply try be friendly, it's all I know now to do. At the end of the day, you are right nobody is going to pick me ever so each day is about managing that and all this weekend serves is another sham where at least I hopefully get a nice experience. I did this with K too and I enjoyed these contrived experiences.

Sure change attitude, to what? I don't see anything wrong with how I interact, I don't know how to flirt but I know how to be kind, see everything I know now to do are all friend zone qualities. For whatever reason something went wrong and I never learnt how to do more and when I have zero confidence and decades of losses it's impossible to try, I once tried kissing a date, it was a terrible experience. My point is nothing I have ever tried has ever lead to a positive result.

[ZA Dater]

13 hours ago, normal person said:

He's also not shooting himself in the foot by removing himself from the competition via a "woe is me, I never had a chance, I have nothing to offer" attitude. Even if all other things were the same between you -- money, looks, experience -- in her eyes, he's a lightyear ahead of you on this alone. 

There is no competition he has traits which are desirable on the general market. I have always been a niche market proposition, the problem is that market all but does not exist. Again the choice I have is simple, accept or try and uproot the tree and do things differently and make myself miserable in the process because every time I have done that the results are no better. The scenario means I have to pretend to be someone I am not and still get rejected anyway so its a double loss. 

You are right, people do not give chances and I am no more deserving of one that anyone else to be honest. I grew up thinking one thing but finding reality was something completely different and the person I am just is not compatible with dating. 

I have lost with her so what she really thinks of me is immaterial, maybe I get the sympathy vote, maybe she spends all this time with me because she feels sorry for me, who knows. The reality is when it comes to dating I have run out of anything to look forward to because none of it is attainable. OLD did me tremendous harm, both in confidence and how I see myself, if you am only being liked by certain people then its clear I am only deemed to be attractive to that type of person, honestly I'd rather have not known this. My life would be better for not knowing.

Its hard to think of anything around dating which has benefitted me BARRING some people who took an interest in me as a limited scale friend who I enjoyed spending time with but even then I had to contrive ways to spend time with these people, they never actually engaged with me at all. 

If I really had anything desirable and anything to offer someone I like would want to spend time with me, that is the bottom line.

 

[normal person]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Its hard to think of anything around dating which has benefitted me BARRING some people who took an interest in me as a limited scale friend who I enjoyed spending time with

If taking an interest in you as a limited scale friend lead you to where you are now, as someone who won't take the action to date in order to avoid jeopardizing his limited scale friend status, then it could be argued that it didn't benefit you at all. It did the exact opposite. It made you comfortable with what you have and doomed to not get what you really want. 

So with regards to your initial question "Can this work? [...] maybe this time I will get into the game in the hope the inherent good in me is enough."

My answer is "It could work, but probably not the way you're trying to do it." I'll be curious to hear updates on this situation but even you've admitted defeat at this point. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, normal person said:

If taking an interest in you as a limited scale friend lead you to where you are now, as someone who won't take the action to date in order to avoid jeopardizing his limited scale friend status, then it could be argued that it didn't benefit you at all. It did the exact opposite. It made you comfortable with what you have and doomed to not get what you really want. 

So with regards to your initial question "Can this work? [...] maybe this time I will get into the game in the hope the inherent good in me is enough."

My answer is "It could work, but probably not the way you're trying to do it." I'll be curious to hear updates on this situation but even you've admitted defeat at this point. 

Here is the thing. Just a bit of good is a whole lot better than a ton of bad. A few crumbs of good cake are better that slices of stale bread. Why risk it when there is no upside at all? Do we ever really get what we want? Maybe some do but many of us do not.

The inherent me is good enough for friend zone. I'll work out a way to just be happy enough with that versus being back in the wilderness of nothingness with absolutely nothing at all. For most this would not be good enough because they know they can date and do better, I do not know if I can and history suggests I cannot. 

Anyway I have jotted down a few words as she is curious about my writing, lets see how those go down. Oddly enough I have had success with written words before in the sense that people appreciate them.

I get what you are saying, someone like you and probably most of the forum could win this situation but you all have the experience I do not, you all have the savvy I do not, you all read situations better than I do. When it comes to facing the losses, the reality is I would not only loose to "he is a good one" but to everyone on this forum too. This entire thing went wrong when said friend "dont date her she is not in a space to date, just be her friend" so I did not try date her, instead I adopted the supportive interested friend.

I think I have a reasonable expectation that my so called friends do have my best interests at heart but who really knows if that is the case or not.

I'll enjoy having someone at my side for the change, I''ll enjoy taking someone for dinner, the simple things, I'll enjoy them because who knows when if ever I will get to enjoy them again.

[trident_2020]

 If she likes analogies, you're going to get laid.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

 If she likes analogies, you're going to get laid.

About as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow morning.

 

[trident_2020]

If she likes negative thinking you're going to have a party

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

If she likes negative thinking you're going to have a party

I put on my positive friend face.

[Yosemite]

I think how this weekend away will go depends on who paid for the hotel room(s). If the OP's company/work paid for the hotel, then I doubt this woman is expecting the OP to do anything other than act as a platonic friend.

If the OP paid for the hotel rooms, she probably is expecting him to make some kind of move, and if he doesn't, the other guy will move into first place in her mind, if he isn't there already.

[chillii]

8 hours ago, trident_2020 said:

If she likes negative thinking you're going to have a party

Lordy ain't that the truth , l'm sorry za but you just sound downright depressing from head to toe. Lighten up man jezuz, it's not the stock market or business or a deal your doing somewhere, find your humanality for God sakes or forever drown in your own misery , which will turn any woman off.

[NuevoYorko]

You're the first person I've ever encountered  who expects that they are entitled to have everything exactly as they desire on their own terms, and thinks that the world is a terribly unfair and harsh place because this hasn't been the case for the past 37 years. 

Dude.  It doesn't work that way for anyone, and it's not going to work that way for you.

You're one of a kind.  

Edited March 25, 2021 by NuevoYorko

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

You're the first person I've ever encountered  who expects that they are entitled to have everything exactly as they desire on their own terms, and thinks that the world is a terribly unfair and harsh place because this hasn't been the case for the past 37 years. 

Dude.  It doesn't work that way for anyone, and it's not going to work that way for you.

You're one of a kind.  

Better to be one of a kind that one of a crowd?

Seriously though I am ok with parking dating never to revisit, millions of people never find success, there is an entire incel community of people who have never found any success at all. That alone tells me that dating does not work everyone and you cannot tell me all those people are severely un attractive.

Point is few people ever get anything they want but maybe a few do get some of the things they like, there is a big difference between the two. 

Better a few great crumbs of good cake than a few stale slices of bread.

[elaine567]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Seriously though I am ok with parking dating never to revisit, millions of people never find success, there is an entire incel community of people who have never found any success at all. That alone tells me that dating does not work everyone and you cannot tell me all those people are severely un attractive.

They may or may not be severely unattractive looks wise, but the whole package contains severely unattractive elements that make them undateable.
 

Edited March 25, 2021 by elaine567

[basil67]

15 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

They may or may not be severely unattractive looks wise, but the whole package contains severely unattractive elements that make them undateable.
 

Indeed.   I'd say it's far more about social skills than looks.

@ZA Dater Incel communities have a statistically significant number of guys who are on the autism spectrum.  They struggle with dating, may make frustrated comments somewhere and end up being groomed to join these communities.  They then find others to commiserate with and are kind of indoctrinated.   Much like how any online extremist group works.     

I however want to be very clear that I see these men as being victims of these hate groups.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/radical-online-communities-and-their-toxic-allure-for-autistic-men/

Edited March 25, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
formatting

[elaine567]

22 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'd say it's far more about social skills than looks

Agreed.
I have known men who were very unattractive looks wise, yet had no problem finding gfs, because they were fun, charming intelligent and great to be around.
Despite their obvious lack of good looks or even disability they were considered "normal" by those around them.
Women  and people in general I think do not like "oddness", as oddness often comes with the creep factor and that is a no-no for most women.
Once the creep factor kicks in, it is a definite no.
 

Edited March 25, 2021 by elaine567

[chillii]

Yep , on every street , by the1000s . ln 80 or 90% of most populations actually most of are relatively no model and far from it , but most find partners no problem , za actually looks far better than many . As we've all tried to tell him it's not all just about looks or no one male or female would have partners, then again though if he insists on hooking a model then some looks won't hurt for sure.

Edited March 25, 2021 by chillii

[chillii]

Ps , btw za , this guy don't forget is probably only one of 100s she's met over the yrs and probably won't even go anywhere anyway . Whether that would change your situation with her no idea if it doesn't but just sayin.

Edited March 25, 2021 by chillii

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Better to be one of a kind that one of a crowd?

Well you would think you of all people would realise that was not true.
Being one of a kind is great if being one of a kind brings with it positivity. 
Film star good looks,  superior intellect, talent, flair, creativity, charm, a comedic witty sense of humour etc. are all positives and bonuses.
You, being one of a kind has brought you nothing but negativity, surely?
No?

Edited March 25, 2021 by elaine567

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Well you would think you of all people would realise that was not true.
Being one of a kind is great if being one of a kind brings with it positivity. 
Film star good looks,  superior intellect, talent, flair, creativity, charm, a comedic witty sense of humour etc. are all positives and bonuses.
You, being one of a kind has brought you nothing but negativity, surely?
No?

And you know what I do not really regret being the person I am. I regret the fact people do not apparently find me attractive but I am with my moral choices and the beliefs I have. I have some positives I reckon, just not ones which are seen as having market value. I have things I am good at, again just not things which have dating value.

Would I have been better off had I gone down the drinking partying route, sure I'd probably not be a 36yo virgin and I probably would have had a lot more FUN but I looked around me growing up, at relatives at other people I knew and that never had any appeal to me, I thought I would not need to do those things to attract people. I have never been proven right with that decision.

You are right people do not like anyone who does not conform so I suppose you could argue its all my fault. 

I can be a lot of good things with the right company, however finding that company is extremely difficult but such is life for many people. I would not swap being the person I am for being a conformist and having a date, simply would not do that. Unless the person was 99% of what I really wanted but again that is so rare as to be impossible. 

On some level I tally up my mistakes daily but maybe for three days I can pretend life turned out differently.

[ZA Dater]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Agreed.
I have known men who were very unattractive looks wise, yet had no problem finding gfs, because they were fun, charming intelligent and great to be around.
Despite their obvious lack of good looks or even disability they were considered "normal" by those around them.
Women  and people in general I think do not like "oddness", as oddness often comes with the creep factor and that is a no-no for most women.
Once the creep factor kicks in, it is a definite no.
 

Did you ever ask them if they settled or if they landed up with people they genuinely found attractive overall? 

My situation is fairly hopeless but I am not going to let that impact me too much, it hurts though so every single day I need to put on another face and pretend all is well, when I do sometimes open up I got BS like "it happens to me too" or set ups with people I'd never find attractive overall. All I really want is just some sort of comfort, someone to just say "yes I understand that cannot be easy to deal with".

[elaine567]

Is tonight the night?

[Trail Blazer]

On 3/25/2021 at 6:27 AM, ZA Dater said:

About as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow morning.

 

Just like how water isn't actually wet; the sun doesn't actually rise, either. 

Water only makes wet whatever it comes into contact with and the world constantly rotates until it's your side of the globe's turn to face it.

I'll let you use one of these fun facts on your next date.  I guarantee you it'll be a hit with the ladies. 😎