Can this work

[BaileyB]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I actually do have something to offer whereas the vast majority of them do not. If they want to date a slim guy then at least be exceptional somewhere else but that is never the case. They rock up and expect me to buy into whatever charm they are offering which frankly is not enough, why on earth would I take someone who cannot speak properly and presents poorly to an event

It’s hard to find the words or the interest to support and encourage you when you say things like this...

I think I’m a great guy, a good listener, supportive, a good friend... but, now let me tell you who I really am...

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

If you expect something extraordinary just because you're thin, you're over estimating the value of your physique.   The whole package of what you've written here pitches you as fairly average.  That's OK, most of us ARE average - not judging.  I'm average too.  However, the bolded looses you a lot of points because it sounds so mean and judgmental. 

You want us to believe that you're a good guy who cares about others, but so much of what you write, both about women who you don't want to date and men who you don't understand is horribly mean.  I really have trouble reconciling who you believe yourself to be with the way you speak about others.

 

Sorry that your sensibilities are offended but it becomes rather irritating this " well give her a chance she might not be the best looking but you know she could become attractive" frankly I believe this to be nonsense, when have I ever been given this benefit of the doubt, the answer is never so I seen no reason to offer it again and I HAVE given that benefit of the doubt many times in the past. 

I have tried to friend zone many. Sorry to say physique is important and I am not going to go sell myself, my accomplishments and attributes to this forum. I'd love to know what you find exceptional though.

At the end of the day I am a product of circumstances so if you expect me to simply be sunshine after 20 years of being treated like dirt then sorry to disappoint. Walk a mile in my shoes and you will be exactly the same. 

Attempting to convince me to date people I don't find attractive is pointless because fundamentally I will not ever do it. If I am going to date I am going to chase what is attractive to me. At 37 I am near the end of the dating road anyway because all options are mostly very unattractive for a multiple of reasons.

Lastly there seems to be bitterness towards going after apparently "top tier" people, top tier itself is nonsense but why on earth should people not go after the best they can, I cannot live not chasing what I like be it any sphere of life. I work work very hard to be what I think to be the best version of myself but the reality is I will never actually be the player that is so loved by all.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It’s hard to find the words or the interest to support and encourage you when you say things like this...

I think I’m a great guy, a good listener, supportive, a good friend... but, now let me tell you who I really am...

It's the simple truth, years and years of experience to back it up. Why should I date unattractive people to me, please offer me five good reasons why?

Why can others date people they find attractive and I must adopt a "that will do" approach? I come up against this nonsense often where a friend of mine will tell me how fantastic someone is yet he won't date them.

Again I am never given the benefit of the doubt why should I offer it? I am not so desperate anything would do and if I were I'd more than likely convince myself to pay before I adopt a "that will do approach". It still amazes me what can be found on arrangement site's, dynamic, intelligent, educated, interesting people. 

So no that's my next option, I have tried it before and always the dates are mostly better, why is that because these women bother to put some effort into the interaction and don't sit there and take zero interest in me and expect me to show all the interest. The downside is the entire interaction is fake.

In terms of this I'll just go down the friend route and accept all the limitations there are because it's million times better than more OLD. I get 90% of what I want whereas OLD I get absolutely nothing I want at all.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry that your sensibilities are offended but it becomes rather irritating this " well give her a chance she might not be the best looking but you know she could become attractive" frankly I believe this to be nonsense, when have I ever been given this benefit of the doubt, the answer is never so I seen no reason to offer it again and I HAVE given that benefit of the doubt many times in the past. 

I have tried to friend zone many. Sorry to say physique is important and I am not going to go sell myself, my accomplishments and attributes to this forum. I'd love to know what you find exceptional though.

At the end of the day I am a product of circumstances so if you expect me to simply be sunshine after 20 years of being treated like dirt then sorry to disappoint. Walk a mile in my shoes and you will be exactly the same. 

Attempting to convince me to date people I don't find attractive is pointless because fundamentally I will not ever do it. If I am going to date I am going to chase what is attractive to me. At 37 I am near the end of the dating road anyway because all options are mostly very unattractive for a multiple of reasons.

Lastly there seems to be bitterness towards going after apparently "top tier" people, top tier itself is nonsense but why on earth should people not go after the best they can, I cannot live not chasing what I like be it any sphere of life. I work work very hard to be what I think to be the best version of myself but the reality is I will never actually be the player that is so loved by all.

Your words don't offend me, they confuse me.   I simply have trouble reconciling someone who says such mean and judgmental things about others as being a kind and caring guy.  See, even above you call a guy who can get a great girlfriend "a player".  

It's fine, you can call these other people all the insults you like and you don't have to date them, but while you choose this route, do so with the knowledge that it does not show you as being the thoughtful and supportive guy you describe yourself as.  

And there is no bitterness from us towards someone who goes after top tier people.  Why would we be bitter?  We're not the ones who are continually failing to catch a unicorn.  Rather, the bitterness comes from yourself when you repeatedly fail against guys who are on par with the unicorns you chase.  Heck, you admit as much in this post above. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by basil67
typo

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Your words don't offend me, they confuse me.   I simply have trouble reconciling someone who says such mean and judgmental things about others as being a kind and caring guy.  See, even above you call a guy who can get a great girlfriend "a player".  

It's fine, you can call these other people all the insults you like and you don't have to date them, but while you choose this route, do so with the knowledge that it does not show you as being the thoughtful and supportive guy you describe yourself as.  

And there is no bitterness from us towards someone who goes after top tier people.  Why would we be bitter?  We're not the ones who are continually failing to catch a unicorn.  Rather, the bitterness comes from yourself when you repeatedly fail against guys who are on par with the unicorns you chase.  Heck, you admit as much in this post above. 

Why because I won't date down? Because I am honest?

They are players many of then major in the art of manipulation, I know this because I know lots of guys like this, most of them project absolute bs in the hope she will go home with them. I arrive being sincere and honest but that gets me nowhere at all. Yes I can't change the system but I can call it as I see it. If all it took was being honest, kind, caring, taking an interest, showing compassion then even I'd have a great gf but the fact of the matter those qualities are worthless. Nothing has indicated to me that anyone values them and I hay been trying to sell them for years. So yea I am bitter and you would be too.

I am not chasing unicorns, just what I know does exists. Again I would rather chase what I want than have what I do not want.

Guys who are on par? In what way exactly? 

I have given some thought to the fact everyone is equal we either are better equal or worse equal but the fact of the matter is looks do matter. I once had a decent enough date, found her very unattractive physically and she then asks me back to her place. Managed to get myself out of that. 

As I say I am done with it. It is what it is, you know if as everyone tells me dating is so perfect there would not be strip clubs and a plethora of other commercial options because everyone is dating people they find attractive....

Fact is you all find some joy out of dating, I simply find irritation and frustration. Joy I find is doing things I know how to do and that would seem to be being friends with people who I want to date but can't. It's not what I want but then again almost nothing in life is actually what I want.

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

They are players many of then major in the art of manipulation, I know this because I know lots of guys like this, most of them project absolute bs in the hope she will go home with them. I arrive being sincere and honest but that gets me nowhere at all. Yes I can't change the system but I can call it as I see it. If all it took was being honest, kind, caring, taking an interest, showing compassion then even I'd have a great gf but the fact of the matter those qualities are worthless. Nothing has indicated to me that anyone values them and I hay been trying to sell them for years. So yea I am bitter and you would be too.

Again, the way you speak about others does not reflect you as being kind, caring, taking an interest or showing compassion.  Rather, the words you choose reflect judgement and disdain in your view of others.   You've just gone and done it again in the bolded.  

 

 

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Again, the way you speak about others does not reflect you as being kind, caring, taking an interest or showing compassion.  Rather, the words you choose reflect judgement and disdain in your view of others.   You've just gone and done it again in the bolded.  

 

 

 

It's the truth.

[basil67]

Indeed.  Your disdain is intense.

Perhaps rather than seeing your compassionate nature as being a particularly strong trait, you are more like the majority of us who pick and choose who they are "kind, caring and compassionate" with.  Again, I'm not judging because that would be the pot calling the kettle black.   In reality, there are very few who withhold judgement in a way which makes them genuinely and broadly kind and compassionate.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by basil67

[Yosemite]

I don't think it's over with this woman. I guess the OP believes that he was friendzoned because she used the word, "friendship" in response to his letter, but it sounds like his letter could be summarized as, "I like being friends with you," and she responded that she "cherished his friendship" too. What else was she supposed to say?

They had a conversation today and he's planning to ask her out for this weekend...I think the OP is just being his negative self in thinking that he was friendzoned. IMO, there's a pretty good chance that she'll spend this weekend with him too.

I just think it's odd that she's staying with the OP with her baby. She doesn't really know him that well and she's bringing her baby on weekend-long trips with him? Idk...she kind of sounds like a gold digger who's using her looks and a sob story to get this lonely guy to fund her life.

I just don't think that taking her baby on trips with a guy she barely knows speaks well of her judgment or her motives...but hopefully I'm wrong.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, Yosemite said:

I don't think it's over with this woman. I guess the OP believes that he was friendzoned because she used the word, "friendship" in response to his letter, but it sounds like his letter could be summarized as, "I like being friends with you," and she responded that she "cherished his friendship" too. What else was she supposed to say?

They had a conversation today and he's planning to ask her out for this weekend...I think the OP is just being his negative self in thinking that he was friendzoned. IMO, there's a pretty good chance that she'll spend this weekend with him too.

I just think it's odd that she's staying with the OP with her baby. She doesn't really know him that well and she's bringing her baby on weekend-long trips with him? Idk...she kind of sounds like a gold digger who's using her looks and a sob story to get this lonely guy to fund her life.

I just don't think that taking her baby on trips with a guy she barely knows speaks well of her judgment or her motives...but hopefully I'm wrong.

Very broadly speaking I thanked her for giving me so much positive and many new and amazing experiences which I had not had before, experiences that I wondered what they would be like. If someone reads between the lines they can see I really like her but I did not want to be too overt because I was not sure what reaction I would get but yes you make a valid point. At some point I will need to put my cards on the table but I am still figuring out how to do that, my thinking is lavish attention, which I enjoy doing anyway. But yes you raise a valid point what would happen if I made my interest more overt. 

From the start I accepted the baby and her were together and I am 10000% ok with that,  he has given me a fresh look at life itself, smiles at me, laughs at me and apparently I am one of the very few people who can calm him when he starts crying. I am very fond of him and love lavishing attention on him too.

The entire scenario is everything I actually want and I thought I'd never actually find.

For context she has spent a lot of time with me so there is a lot of familiarity.

[BaileyB]

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

They are players many of then major in the art of manipulation, I know this because I know lots of guys like this, most of them project absolute bs in the hope she will go home with them.

Is that not exactly what you’ve done by positioning yourself as her friend, with the plan that it would hopefully grow to become more. Is that not a from of manipulation. You have projected yourself to her as a kind, caring friend... while you clearly have ulterior motives and based on your comments here, you are hostile toward so many women and the man that she wants to date. 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Is that not exactly what you’ve done by positioning yourself as her friend, with the plan that it would hopefully grow to become more. Is that not a from of manipulation. You have projected yourself to her as a kind, caring friend... while you clearly have ulterior motives and based on your comments here, you are hostile toward so many women and the man that she wants to date. 

No because for me being a friend is a foundation. When I used to go out if I met someone which I never actually did my goal was to befriend them and in time try and turn that into more, versus many others who want to bed them within 3 hours of meeting them possibly to never ever see them again. Would I do that if I knew how to, probably not because it does not sit well with me.

Ok so a guy who forgets to send a uber to fetch his date and she has to uber herself over 70 miles,  a guy who expects a 10 month old baby to wake up at 6am so he can go play golf. A guy who is 5 km away but wont come and fetch her but expects her to get an uber to meet him. A guy who is so timid he cannot even walk up to a front door to ring the bell. 

I might be a terrible person but I would never do any of the above. Much like I never ever let dates pay for meals, even when I have not enjoyed the date itself, I walk them back to their cars, again irrespective if I have enjoyed the date. I make sure the dates are closer to them so they do not need to travel too much, especially at night. None of these things count for anything I realize that but I think you get the point.

Nice guy. 

She has asked me what I think of him and actually I probably did him a favor in my response. 

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The entire scenario is everything I actually want and I thought I'd never actually find.

So a couple things you can take out of this (once you get through the initial pain):

1. You like babies so you can add single moms with babies to your list of options where it was a dealbreaker before. As finding love is a numbers game, this gives you more numbers as options. That’s a good thing.

 

2. More importantly, this hopefully shifts your goal in a relationship to marriage and kids, which is where your natural personality lies, rather than casual dating. This could be a gamechanger.

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

So a couple things you can take out of this (once you get through the initial pain):

1. You like babies so you can add single moms with babies to your list of options where it was a dealbreaker before. As finding love is a numbers game, this gives you more numbers as options. That’s a good thing.

 

2. More importantly, this hopefully shifts your goal in a relationship to marriage and kids, which is where your natural personality lies, rather than casual dating. This could be a gamechanger.

Not really because there are certain aspects here which work for me, the father is not around. She is self supporting and that is rare among the single moms I have met and I have met many. Her personality is warm and engaging, again very rare for me to find that. 

Fundamentally the ONLY reason I got this far is I could spend a LOT of time with her so she could get comfortable with me, I was very shy when I first met her but then we spent 5 hours chatting and could really engage.

The circumstances here are all so RARE I do not see them ever happening again. What I can take out of this is tick the boxes on my life list of things I want to experience and yes this was fleeting but it was also very good, I sort of got to go away with someone, I got to share my passions with someone, I got to take someone to dinner so a LOT of what I really wanted to experience I have now done. I got to feel emotion which is good. I have been reading a lot about love languages and it would seem mine is "time spent" so that explains why I really enjoyed this as much as I have. I also got to feel really good about myself, that lonely void was gone and I found huge levels of confidence, finally it felt like I had some sort of purpose and I did not have to keep everything bottled up, we can speak about anything and everything. I realized I adore kids, I realized I have a lot of patience and I also realized how much I love giving.

I will always live with a huge amount of regret I never got to

1: Experience this earlier in life

2: Wont be able to find it again

Reality is the people I find attractive will never find me attractive so I will always get kicked in the face, that's just the reality of it. I'll always be aspiring but never really achieving, that is quite hard to reconcile but hopefully I can one day. 

I felt like this was the first time I really brought value to someone else, the warm hugs, the smiles, the laughs, it was all good and I could just be the best version of me which is actually quite a soft hearted guy, I acquired a heart of concrete over 20 odd years, it was the only way to handle constant rejection. 

SO on balance I have actually done most of what I hoped to do with dating but from a human point of view its like having a slice of great cake, you want more, I just need to realize I cannot have me, I have had my one great slice.

I am tempted to post what I wrote her here but I suspect I might get slammed.

[BaileyB]

My friend, your attempt to befriend her such that she will chose you and sleep with you is not more noble than the man who takes her out and wants to go home with her that night. That’s how dating usually works.  

[normal person]

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Refer to my response to Elaine's post about not knowing how to express any other interest but friend zone type interest.

So instead of inquiring here with a group of knowledgeable people who want to guide and help you, you went rogue and now claim ignorance. Why?

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Re the advice, do you really think it would have turned out any better, honestly?

Ohhh, good thing you clarified, for a second I was worried I might be wasting my time trying to help you. 

So why'd you ask, then? Really? 

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

she knew I am useless at dating, she knows I have not dated ever, she knows all these things already but still choose to spend time with me anyway [...] you know what she bothered to actually engage with me which nobody else ever bothers to do.

Yeah, but is this the kind of "engagement" you actually wanted at the end of the day? You using your lack of success to assure her you have zero potential so that she'll simply continue to speak to you? You've got to able to see how counterproductive this actually is. 

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

If other people can date people they find attractive I am certainly not going to waste me time with people I do not find attractive

This is a real juvenile rhetoric. "If other people don't have to, why should I?" I bet you have a lot of things that other people can't have -- a nice home, job, care, free time, relative safety, security, etc. What would you say to someone who complained to you that they shouldn't have to live without those things because you don't and then started demanding some of those things from you? Life is unfair to a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. Relatively speaking, you're probably the envy of a lot of people, and they aren't trying to take things from you, or jump ahead with some absurd justification. Someone made a great analogy earlier about how you're a trainee employee who just wants to jump right to the executive board. "If other people can be executives, I'm certainly not going to toil in the mailroom." Life's unfair. People have to learn and get things the hard way. Most people have learned and accepted this in their youth and you're in your late 30s still complaining about it like that will fix it somehow. Maybe it's time to grow up, finally? You have to do things because the people you want things from are telling you that that's the price. Either pay/earn it, or stop complaining already. 

 

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Guys who are on par? In what way exactly?

In ways that women in general actually find attractive.
Women and men tend to gravitate towards those who they consider to be like themselves.
You have gravitated towards this woman as she is good looking and you have found things in common, great.
For you she provides companionship and good times, but in the scheme of things what you have is not that special in her eyes, it is merely friendship. Good as far as it goes but not enough.
However that is only part of the story, she commands more dating value as she is a successful IG model, so whilst she may like the "connection" she has with you.
It is not enough as she knows she can do better. and she has and she will do better in the future if this relationship with the set up guy founders.
You offered friendship she took it, but where is the passion? Where is the sex? Where is the romance? Where is the stuff that relationships are built upon?
No-where.

You go on about how  great a person you are, which seems to be good friend material, but none of that matters if you cannot get her pulse racing...
Kind, considerate, but average guys are ten a penny. In order to hook in "the best" you'll need a whole lot more than that.

So we are back to the  basic problem. You are delusional.
You are a flyweight with delusions of beating the heavy weights.
You can whine and moan about it and hope to get the sympathy vote, but once in the ring, that guy will wipe the floor with you.
Reality is reality.
Time to wake up or as @normal person just said time to grow up and be an adult.

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, normal person said:

So instead of inquiring here with a group of knowledgeable people who want to guide and help you, you went rogue and now claim ignorance. Why?

Ohhh, good thing you clarified, for a second I was worried I might be wasting my time trying to help you. 

So why'd you ask, then? Really? 

Yeah, but is this the kind of "engagement" you actually wanted at the end of the day? You using your lack of success to assure her you have zero potential so that she'll simply continue to speak to you? You've got to able to see how counterproductive this actually is. 

This is a real juvenile rhetoric. "If other people don't have to, why should I?" I bet you have a lot of things that other people can't have -- a nice home, job, care, free time, relative safety, security, etc. What would you say to someone who complained to you that they shouldn't have to live without those things because you don't and then started demanding some of those things from you? Life is unfair to a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. Relatively speaking, you're probably the envy of a lot of people, and they aren't trying to take things from you, or jump ahead with some absurd justification. Someone made a great analogy earlier about how you're a trainee employee who just wants to jump right to the executive board. "If other people can be executives, I'm certainly not going to toil in the mailroom." Life's unfair. People have to learn and get things the hard way. Most people have learned and accepted this in their youth and you're in your late 30s still complaining about it like that will fix it somehow. Maybe it's time to grow up, finally? You have to do things because the people you want things from are telling you that that's the price. Either pay/earn it, or stop complaining already. 

 

I have asked this many times and the answer is "try kiss her", I have tried that before on other dates and its been a disaster to the point I never saw the people again. Why would it be any different this time?

No I this time I just put all my cards on the table at the start, she could then decide how much she wanted to do with me, frankly what I did was just put myself into the friend zone doing that but at least admitting zero experience meant she did not have to wonder why I was not trying to date her, I was told NOT to try date her by a mutual friend. People wont wonder things if I simply tell them I have no idea how to do those things. Its a lot better than trying to cover it up. You wont agree though.

Ok well lets agree to disagree, I am NOT dating people I do not find attractive under the guise of gaining experience, that is deeming to them as it is to me. I have ZERO interest in doing that. Do not lecture me about getting things the hard way, I have had to slog and fight for everything I have, competing against the silver spoon brigade at every turn so I know that its like to be in the fight and I certainly give as good as I get. Do you think my hard nosed attitude is the result of everything arriving easy, absolutely not. 

Frankly you and I at least agree the one with the biggest wallet wins irrespective of what sort of person they are.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

In ways that women in general actually find attractive.
Women and men tend to gravitate towards those who they consider to be like themselves.
You have gravitated towards this woman as she is good looking and you have found things in common, great.
For you she provides companionship and good times, but in the scheme of things what you have is not that special in her eyes, it is merely friendship. Good as far as it goes but not enough.
However that is only part of the story, she commands more dating value as she is a successful IG model, so whilst she may like the "connection" she has with you.
It is not enough as she knows she can do better. and she has and she will do better in the future if this relationship with the set up guy founders.
You offered friendship she took it, but where is the passion? Where is the sex? Where is the romance? Where is the stuff that relationships are built upon?
No-where.

You go on about how  great a person you are, which seems to be good friend material, but none of that matters if you cannot get her pulse racing...
Kind, considerate, but average guys are ten a penny. In order to hook in "the best" you'll need a whole lot more than that.

So we are back to the  basic problem. You are delusional.
You are a flyweight with delusions of beating the heavy weights.
You can whine and moan about it and hope to get the sympathy vote, but once in the ring, that guy will wipe the floor with you.
Reality is reality.
Time to wake up or as @normal person just said time to grow up and be an adult.

Easier to just give up. Thanks.

Thanks for confirming my worthlessness. Its never ever enough. I do not know how to do romance, I do not know how to do passion. SO it would seem straight to the garbage heap for me. On the one hand people have told me inexperience does NOT matter yet here we go, confirming that it in fact does. 

I'll just take whatever is offered because any of that is better than anything on OLD. 

My entire life is built on NOT settling, I take on the big fish and I sometimes beat them, what do you think drives me forward everyday, the "oh that will do" no if I did that I'd live a totally miserable life. If its difficult I take it on, nothing I ever go after is easy, absolutely NOTHING. 

I get some people are happy to just settle for whatever and it works for them but it does not work for me. I think in dating terms you would need to be very desperate to just go out with anyone who likes you even if you did not like them. 

I suppose one day there are always strippers and escorts. 

 

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

. I do not know how to do romance, I do not know how to do passion.

So did you never ever think that in order to date a woman these things would be of primary importance? 

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So did you never ever think that in order to date a woman these things would be of primary importance? 

Sure I have no experience at any of them so I made a choice to just go ahead anyway in the hope there might be enough decent about me for people to be ok with the fact I have no experience. Clearly I am wrong. 

No experience and no way to get experience. Yeah, sounds really idea to me.

[normal person]

41 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 Do not lecture me about getting things the hard way, I have had to slog and fight for everything I have, competing against the silver spoon brigade at every turn so I know that its like to be in the fight and I certainly give as good as I get. Do you think my hard nosed attitude is the result of everything arriving easy, absolutely not. 

So why do you think dating is going to be any different? If you had to fight for all those things, it's incongruous that when it comes to women, all of a sudden you can't fathom why you should have to fight when others don't. 

41 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Frankly you and I at least agree the one with the biggest wallet wins irrespective of what sort of person they are.

That's not really what I've said. A big wallet will certainly get a foot in the door with a lot of people. And for a lot of those people, it might be enough. But to act like it's an irrefutable law of nature from which any nuance is a blasphemy, you'd be wrong. Not every man in a relationship is rich. Not every woman needs, or can get, a rich man. Some rich men are so repugnant their money can't make up it, etc. Anyways, this isn't the topic. 

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, normal person said:

So why do you think dating is going to be any different? If you had to fight for all those things, it's incongruous that when it comes to women, all of a sudden you can't fathom why you should have to fight when others don't. 

That's not really what I've said. A big wallet will certainly get a foot in the door with a lot of people. And for a lot of those people, it might be enough. But to act like it's an irrefutable law of nature from which any nuance is a blasphemy, you'd be wrong. Not every man in a relationship is rich. Not every woman needs, or can get, a rich man. Some rich men are so repugnant their money can't make up it, etc. Anyways, this isn't the topic. 

Which is exactly what I have done here with the skills I do have. Which are are not enough because I have no experience. SO yes while its ALL my fault its not exactly unexpected, I cannot change the way the world works and I cannot change what people value. I can just sell what I have any hope someone wants to buy which will never happen because what I am selling has no value. Fundamentally I do not think like most others, my friend for example cannot understand why I bothered taking a friend away for a weekend, he cannot understand why I enjoy that I do enjoy. People do not understand why I do not drink, they cant understand why I do place this massive premium on taking people to bed. I am not finished competing with the competition in this instance but frankly the odd of a win are about as good as me jumping off a building and suddenly being able to fly. 

Start adding up things about me and the numbers do not add up. They never have they never will which is WHY I try sell myself the way I do, up front honesty but the reality is that sell will never ever work.

ALL I have spent 20 odd years trying to do is find anything to make up for the various issues I have and no matter what I try and trot out I can never really get anywhere.  There is a very specific set of circumstances where I have a better chance at success, this has more of those circumstances. I can tell you anyone who parties and has a hectic social life will NOT work with me. 

So yes this is super easy and I am sure everyone here has enjoyed some success but honestly I would not bet on my because if I cannot even get this to work when there is so much that does work then I am never going to be able to get anything to work, I prefer honesty to some deluded fantasy. 

All I can do is stick dating in a compartment I don't ever open, forget my want for companionship or find it some other way, forget my want to experience and share or find an alternative way to do these things. Birthdays are usually truly terrible for me, New Years equally so because years go by I am never really have that companionship, I do not even bother celebrating birthdays anymore because there is nothing to celebrate, I am as alone as any other year so what is there to celebrate exactly. 

At least there were some wins here and maybe if I can continue the friendship I can put a band aid on this giant wound I have in life.

[elaine567]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

, my friend for example cannot understand why I bothered taking a friend away for a weekend

So you paid to take her away for this weekend?

[jspice]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Is that not exactly what you’ve done by positioning yourself as her friend, with the plan that it would hopefully grow to become more. Is that not a from of manipulation. You have projected yourself to her as a kind, caring friend... while you clearly have ulterior motives and based on your comments here, you are hostile toward so many women and the man that she wants to date. 

Yes!!!