Jump to content

Can this work


Curt
Message added by Curt,

This thread has been temporarily locked and is under review by the moderating team. Posters are reminded to be respectful of each other when posting. Please critique ideas, not the individuals espousing those ideas.

Recommended Posts

  • Author
21 minutes ago, normal person said:

But don't you think it's a more honest approach? Regardless of how it helps you specifically. The point being, maybe if we scratch the surface, you still prefer the tactics that benefit you the most (you think), regardless of how ethical they are. So you're making selfish decisions too. I'm not saying you're a bad person, but if you think about it like that, you're maybe not as ethical and upstanding as you're making yourself out to be. Again, I'd bet this woman senses this on some level. I'm sure she still thinks you're a great guy/friend, but you're not 100% innocent of underhandedness either.

Are you still her friend? Yes. Will she respect you in the same way she'd respect a guy who was upfront and honest about the situation? I really don't think so. Although you do raise a good point about her being a recent widower so there are some extenuating circumstances here. 

Here is the thing I am always going to play it safe, more so in this particular situation because I am very sensitive to the feeling loss. Either way I am happy to just be friends because that's pretty much the limit of my abilities as has been illustrated time and time again. I cant seduce anyone because I do not know how to so for most I am a very safe option, this inexperience is very obvious to anyone who meets me. I get teased about this fairly often too by guys I know.

So I do not really tick any of the relationship boxes at all.

I would not have taken a direct approach because my idea was friends and see how that goes but I realize now that is all I am good for.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is the thing I am always going to play it safe, more so in this particular situation because I am very sensitive to the feeling loss.

There is no loss, therefore there’s no reason to play it safe. Playing it safe prolongs the inevitable if she’s not attracted to you, and can dissolve any potential attraction if there was a spark to start with. 

 

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Either way I am happy to just be friends because that's pretty much the limit of my abilities as has been illustrated time and time again.

Except you’re not happy to just be friends. Why do you keep lying to us? Once you realized she thought her other suitor was a “good guy” you wrote post after post about how worthless you are. You’re not okay with just being friends. 

 

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

So I do not really tick any of the relationship boxes at all.

Sure you do. But that has nothing to do with whether or not any particular woman is attracted to you or not.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

There is no loss, therefore there’s no reason to play it safe. Playing it safe prolongs the inevitable if she’s not attracted to you, and can dissolve any potential attraction if there was a spark to start with. 

 

Except you’re not happy to just be friends. Why do you keep lying to us? Once you realized she thought her other suitor was a “good guy” you wrote post after post about how worthless you are. You’re not okay with just being friends. 

 

Sure you do. But that has nothing to do with whether or not any particular woman is attracted to you or not.

I'll just have to force myself to find contentment with friends.I don't know how to do anything else but be friends so.

Everyone around me clearly thinks very little of me because I am always advised to go the friends route.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Trail Blazer

@ZA Dater

I really do think you need to speak with a professional counsellor/shrink/therapist.  

I don't think anyone here can help you.  I've exhausted all my suggestions.  Nothing will help you when you're truncated by a barrier of negativity and social dysfunction.

You need to take some risks in life.  You should have taken the risk of putting yourself out there to this lady.  If she declined and only wanted to stay friends, then you haven't lost.

I am still curious about this whole arrangement, though.  It really sounds, erm... unconventional for want of a better term.

It seems to me that this lady is all about the taking.  You're taking her here, there and everywhere.  She's staying at your house, rent free if I have this correct?

What are you getting out of it?  Literally, the joy of her presence?  Dude, really?

We're only getting one side of the story here, but from my point of view, it really sounds quite suss. 

I can see this woman all of a sudden riding off into the sunset in the not too distant future and leaving you wondering what the hell just happened as she's no longer got use for you and won't return your calls/messages.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Everyone around me clearly thinks very little of me because I am always advised to go the friends route.

That is I guess because they know you don't have a hope in hell with these highly desirable, much sought after women.
If you were pitching at some Miss Average they would  be supportive as  there would be a much better chance that you could actually pull it off.
They don't want you to get your hopes up.
They also know what these "hanger on" girls are capable of.
They will use you and spit you out in an instant... and never look back.

 

2 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I can see this woman all of a sudden riding off into the sunset in the not too distant future and leaving you wondering what the hell just happened as she's no longer got use for you and won't return your calls/messages.

.Exactly.
The week end away?   I guess was more about the prestigious event you took her to rather than anything else... 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

@ZA Dater

I really do think you need to speak with a professional counsellor/shrink/therapist.  

I don't think anyone here can help you.  I've exhausted all my suggestions.  Nothing will help you when you're truncated by a barrier of negativity and social dysfunction.

You need to take some risks in life.  You should have taken the risk of putting yourself out there to this lady.  If she declined and only wanted to stay friends, then you haven't lost.

I am still curious about this whole arrangement, though.  It really sounds, erm... unconventional for want of a better term.

It seems to me that this lady is all about the taking.  You're taking her here, there and everywhere.  She's staying at your house, rent free if I have this correct?

What are you getting out of it?  Literally, the joy of her presence?  Dude, really?

We're only getting one side of the story here, but from my point of view, it really sounds quite suss. 

I can see this woman all of a sudden riding off into the sunset in the not too distant future and leaving you wondering what the hell just happened as she's no longer got use for you and won't return your calls/messages.

 

Well I saw her this morning for a few minutes and everything seems to be good. She still isn't sure about this guy but that is irrelevant to me really. 

She offers to pay and I don't let her pay, as mentioned I prefer paying.

I did sort of take that risk and got nowhere but I admit I don't know what I am doing.

What I get out of it is some company, get to spend time with someone who makes me smile and laugh, brings all the things I have missed out on for so long and I get nobody understands that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

That is I guess because they know you don't have a hope in hell with these highly desirable, much sought after women.
If you were pitching at some Miss Average they would  be supportive as  there would be a much better chance that you could actually pull it off.
They don't want you to get your hopes up.
They also know what these "hanger on" girls are capable of.
They will use you and spit you out in an instant... and never look back.

 

.Exactly.
The week end away?   I guess was more about the prestigious event you took her to rather than anything else... 

That's not very nice but perhaps partly true, unfortunately I like what I like. As do most people.

I'd do no better with what you call average because I just would not have the skills and not the interest either.

At the end of the day it's all about me not having vital skills and any experience, those two combined are a great way to ensure nothing will ever work with anyone.

So yeah I have a weekend sitting on my own to ponder life and my lot in life. I'll add some work to that as a pick me up bit yeah life is back to what it's always been

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So who is she spending Easter with?

Friend. Who knows and I don't really care.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

At the end of the day it's all about me not having vital skills and any experience, those two combined are a great way to ensure nothing will ever work with anyone.

There isn’t some kind of secret special skill. In this case you’re just not her type it looks like. Nothing to do with skills or experience. That’s just a story that you’re telling yourself. Keeps you in your safe comfort zone.  If one of the overweight women that matches you on Tinder had a “vital skill” to gain your interest, what would that look like? 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

So yeah I have a weekend sitting on my own to ponder life and my lot in life. I'll add some work to that as a pick me up bit yeah life is back to what it's always been

As we’ve said all along. As long as you continue to do things the same way, you’ll get the same results.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

There isn’t some kind of secret special skill. In this case you’re just not her type it looks like.

Probably, but if a guy presents a platonic vibe then he is going into the friendzone, that is how it tends to work.
Few women, especially those who have options are going to take the lead and "ravage" a guy who is showing no signs of being sexually interested. 
ZA needs this woman or any other he is interested in to take the lead and that is likely not going to happen as these desirable women tend to wait for the guy to initiate. 
Attractive women are usually fending off guys, they often do not need to do any of the work. 
They may give off "come on" vibes and make it plain they are interested in response to his lead, but they don't usually need to initiate. 
Up till now the only women interested in ZA sexually were "unattractive or "drunk", which is kind of par for the course...drink loosens the inhibitions and unattractive women may choose to have an "in for a penny, in for a pound" attitude.
I know "women" always moan about guys being too sexually orientated but there has to be some animal magnetism involved else it just doesn't work... few women especially younger women are happy with a polite and well mannered "room mate", they want sex, they want romance, they want a lover...
 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
58 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There isn’t some kind of secret special skill. In this case you’re just not her type it looks like. Nothing to do with skills or experience. That’s just a story that you’re telling yourself. Keeps you in your safe comfort zone.  If one of the overweight women that matches you on Tinder had a “vital skill” to gain your interest, what would that look like? 

 

As we’ve said all along. As long as you continue to do things the same way, you’ll get the same results.

It is what it is. Unattractive will never interest me at all in any sexual way. Friend and collaborative yes but nothing else.

What is am supposed to do, go back onto OLD, go to meet up, walk around with a sign asking people to date me.

Nah she can go have an enjoyable weekend, I'll just lament the qualities I do not have and the appeal I so not have.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Probably, but if a guy presents a platonic vibe then he is going into the friendzone, that is how it tends to work.
Few women, especially those who have options are going to take the lead and "ravage" a guy who is showing no signs of being sexually interested. 

True. You have to make your intentions known early. I suspect @ZA Dater stays away from anything sexual because of his deep shame at being a virgin. His great fear is to be ridiculed in the bedroom. So when he says all he knows is “friend zone” it’s really just he’s so afraid of moving past it, and risking that rejection and ridicule, that he is still looking for that risk free relationship. Which will never work.

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

It is what it is. Unattractive will never interest me at all in any sexual way. Friend and collaborative yes but nothing else.

Nobody has ever said you should try dating someone you find unattractive. You can stop pretending that we are.  Honestly it’s weird that you keep saying the same things over and over that have nothing to do with reality.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
10 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

True. You have to make your intentions known early. I suspect @ZA Dater stays away from anything sexual because of his deep shame at being a virgin. His great fear is to be ridiculed in the bedroom. So when he says all he knows is “friend zone” it’s really just he’s so afraid of moving past it, and risking that rejection and ridicule, that he is still looking for that risk free relationship. Which will never work.

I am honest enough to admit there is some truth to that, especially if the person is not someone I am comfortable around and we do not really communicate well. I do not know how to seduce and flirt, that much is certain. 

Happy to take risks if there is some degree of success, when someone tells me something is not a good idea I look at it closely and then decide if I have the experience and knowledge to offset the downside, I never have either of these two when it comes to dating so I have to take advice on face value. It would now seem said friend who told me that, quite like her himself so any help I have got is out the window now. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not know how to seduce and flirt, that much is certain. 

That’s because you stay away from anything sexual due to fear. I’ve never been flirty either, or consciously seductive, but if I was interested in a woman I’d make it clear. You’re hoping for some sort of guarantee. That doesn’t exist. You let her know where you stand, and then let whatever happens happen.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Happy to take risks if there is some degree of success,

If you’re guaranteed any success, then it’s not a risk. Especially in the world of dating, most risks taken will end in either rejection or a relationship that doesn’t last for whatever reason. The key is being fine with that. It doesn’t kill you. 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

if I have the experience and knowledge to offset the downside

Experience and knowledge don’t have any impact on the downside. And ultimately there isn’t any downside really. Finding out someone isn’t attracted to you isn’t personal. And being able to move on, and focus your attention elsewhere is another benefit of taking the risk. Basically you’re hoping to just stay in limbo which is the worst case scenario. You’re aiming for purgatory.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

It would now seem said friend who told me that, quite like her himself so any help I have got is out the window now. 

Not surprised. Your friends all seem kind of slimy. But you refuse to do anything about it of course...

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

That’s because you stay away from anything sexual due to fear. I’ve never been flirty either, or consciously seductive, but if I was interested in a woman I’d make it clear. You’re hoping for some sort of guarantee. That doesn’t exist. You let her know where you stand, and then let whatever happens happen.

 

If you’re guaranteed any success, then it’s not a risk. Especially in the world of dating, most risks taken will end in either rejection or a relationship that doesn’t last for whatever reason. The key is being fine with that. It doesn’t kill you. 

 

Experience and knowledge don’t have any impact on the downside. And ultimately there isn’t any downside really. Finding out someone isn’t attracted to you isn’t personal. And being able to move on, and focus your attention elsewhere is another benefit of taking the risk. Basically you’re hoping to just stay in limbo which is the worst case scenario. You’re aiming for purgatory.

 

Not surprised. Your friends all seem kind of slimy. But you refuse to do anything about it of course...

I make it clear via paying her attention and trying to spend as much time with her as possible, those are the two options I have, neither of which works. The reality is until somehow I find mutual attraction anything sexual is pointless.

I have had enough rejection, so yea I will just stay away, enough is really enough, only reason I put my foot in the water this time was the sense I had a chance.

For me it is personal because all I have had was rejection if I could say ok cool I had some wins some losses and it's another loss I know I am capable of a win. There is nothing to suggest I can win at this. Focus my attention to where exactly?

Friends business life hobbies...all interlinked. She was ok with me this morning, same warm greeting, baby smiled at me, she was seeing the other guy later, no skin off my nose. Ultimately I have lost so I'll try do so with sons grace but a huge amount of regret.

As for friend, he cannot understand why I went away with her, " just pay for a escort man". He won't ever understand my need for company or how lonely I am, he has the pick of any number of dynamic, attractive, interesting people...such are the perks of wealth.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I make it clear via paying her attention and trying to spend as much time with her as possible, those are the two options I have, neither of which works.

It doesn’t work because it has nothing to do with romance. It’s friendship. You’re the only one who knows you’re interested in someone romantically, so it might seem like to you just spending time with her is enough. But it isn’t. 

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The reality is until somehow I find mutual attraction anything sexual is pointless.

How do you plan on finding out if there’s mutual attraction? Carrier pigeon sending you a note?

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have had enough rejection, so yea I will just stay away, enough is really enough, only reason I put my foot in the water this time was the sense I had a chance.

This is a key part of your thinking that needs to change. People have suggested therapy, and if you do decide to go, tell them you have no tolerance to rejection and are afraid to take risks due to it. This belief that rejection is somehow damaging can be changed.

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

For me it is personal because all I have had was rejection if I could say ok cool I had some wins some losses and it's another loss I know I am capable of a win. There is nothing to suggest I can win at this.

It’s personal because that’s your thought process, not because the person who isn’t attracted to you is making it personal. You take it personally, but you don’t have to. Another thing to bring up in therapy.

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Focus my attention to where exactly?

Anything? Frees up mental space. If you want to pursue dating other women, great! If you want to try a different workout, great! New hobbies, great!

 

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ultimately I have lost so I'll try do so with sons grace but a huge amount of regret.

You didn’t lose anything. You never had anything.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
26 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It doesn’t work because it has nothing to do with romance. It’s friendship. You’re the only one who knows you’re interested in someone romantically, so it might seem like to you just spending time with her is enough. But it isn’t. 

 

How do you plan on finding out if there’s mutual attraction? Carrier pigeon sending you a note?

 

This is a key part of your thinking that needs to change. People have suggested therapy, and if you do decide to go, tell them you have no tolerance to rejection and are afraid to take risks due to it. This belief that rejection is somehow damaging can be changed.

 

It’s personal because that’s your thought process, not because the person who isn’t attracted to you is making it personal. You take it personally, but you don’t have to. Another thing to bring up in therapy.

 

Anything? Frees up mental space. If you want to pursue dating other women, great! If you want to try a different workout, great! New hobbies, great!

 

You didn’t lose anything. You never had anything.

I had some companionship. Which is better than nothing or anything I'd had before. Oh well if spending time isn't enough then I don't know what is.

Seems to me one would need massive confidence to get this right. Risk is possible with confidence of a positive outcome.

That's exactly the problem I never know if people like me but generally when I never hear from them again I can deduce...here however it's different because I am seeing her but she just sees me as a friend which cannot be changed.

Done therapy not intending to go back. Great way to debate and deal with someone who thinks they know me but of absolutely no value, I was sent as a kid because I never fitted in and wasn't like any other kid.

Please try put yourself in 20 years of rejection and you will understand better, she knows all of this by the way, the constant rejection.

Nobody else to date. Not going back to OLD. Happy with my hobbies, will just need to deal with being lonely.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Seems to me one would need massive confidence to get this right. Risk is possible with confidence of a positive outcome.

No. Just have to realize rejection isn’t a big deal. The most successful people in the world fail the most. They just keep trying new things. 

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

That's exactly the problem I never know if people like me but generally when I never hear from them again I can deduce...

None of us can know for sure. And frankly it’s not even that relevant. If you enjoyed the date, ask them out again. Worst that can happen is they say no.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

here however it's different because I am seeing her but she just sees me as a friend which cannot be changed.

True. And the only reason you see her everyday is because she needs a place to stay. Meh, not a big deal.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Done therapy not intending to go back. Great way to debate and deal with someone who thinks they know me but of absolutely no value,

Why would you debate with your therapist? If you don’t connect, find another therapist. There’s a classic question in therapy, which is “would you rather be right, or be happy?” Here’s a hint, choose happy.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious about this "extremely complicated" arrangement. The fact that the OP won't just say what it is is all kinds of shady.

Him and his friend are "helping her"...helping her with what exactly? And now the friend is trying to make moves on her too? Skeevy.

How is it that the OP who is not at all well-liked and lacks any kind of social ability can convince an Instagram model to stay multiple weekends at his place by herself with her baby? Was there really a "prestigious event" for each of the ~14 days that she spent there?

Not only is he paying for everything, but she's accepting it. Instagram models are experts at fending off creepers, but she's blind to the tired friends->lovers game that the OP is trying to run on her?

She's bringing her 10 month old baby around the OP, a guy that she barely knows, and she's letting him play daddy with the baby. Who does that? And who watched the baby while she was at the "prestigious event?" She could find a babysitter in the OP's town, but couldn't find one where she lives?

Where does she live when she's not staying with the OP? She's obviously still in town right now, but it doesn't seem like she's currently staying with the OP.

She feeds the OP lines about how he's the only one who can calm down the baby and is the only one that the baby likes. Then she tells him that she "cherishes his friendship," and that their weekend together was "perfect"...of course, the OP believes every word and eats it all up...

This situation is weird every which way you look at it.

My guess is that the OP's friend is actually his co-worker and is involved with talent scouting or event planning or something like that. The co-worker/friend tells the Insta model that there's an industry event that she should go to and that he's got it all arranged. He introduces her to the OP and tells her that all the expenses are being taken care of by the company. The OP lives in corporate housing or has access to corporate housing for the prestigious event and that's why she doesn't feel weird staying with him. The OP pays for everything with a corporate card and will be reimbursed by the company.

That's my guess anyway...the OP is being deliberately vague so it's kind of impossible to tell what's going on here.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
7 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

No. Just have to realize rejection isn’t a big deal. The most successful people in the world fail the most. They just keep trying new things. 

 

None of us can know for sure. And frankly it’s not even that relevant. If you enjoyed the date, ask them out again. Worst that can happen is they say no.

 

True. And the only reason you see her everyday is because she needs a place to stay. Meh, not a big deal.

 

Why would you debate with your therapist? If you don’t connect, find another therapist. There’s a classic question in therapy, which is “would you rather be right, or be happy?” Here’s a hint, choose happy.

Correction I was seeing her daily even when she wasn't staying with me. We speak daily, she invited me to do things with her, she didn't need to do that.

Therapists...no thanks all much of muchness the advice offered here trumps any therapist because everyone here doesn't spit out theory.

You get no for 20 years and tell me how you feel. Tell me if it's not a big deal and no personal...I think your view would be very different.

Yes successful people fail but they also see progress, what progress have j really had.

Anyway I'll try have breakfast with her next week and tell her in as risk free away how much I enjoy her company.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
9 minutes ago, Yosemite said:

I'm curious about this "extremely complicated" arrangement. The fact that the OP won't just say what it is is all kinds of shady.

Him and his friend are "helping her"...helping her with what exactly? And now the friend is trying to make moves on her too? Skeevy.

How is it that the OP who is not at all well-liked and lacks any kind of social ability can convince an Instagram model to stay multiple weekends at his place by herself with her baby? Was there really a "prestigious event" for each of the ~14 days that she spent there?

Not only is he paying for everything, but she's accepting it. Instagram models are experts at fending off creepers, but she's blind to the tired friends->lovers game that the OP is trying to run on her?

She's bringing her 10 month old baby around the OP, a guy that she barely knows, and she's letting him play daddy with the baby. Who does that? And who watched the baby while she was at the "prestigious event?" She could find a babysitter in the OP's town, but couldn't find one where she lives?

Where does she live when she's not staying with the OP? She's obviously still in town right now, but it doesn't seem like she's currently staying with the OP.

She feeds the OP lines about how he's the only one who can calm down the baby and is the only one that the baby likes. Then she tells him that she "cherishes his friendship," and that their weekend together was "perfect"...of course, the OP believes every word and eats it all up...

This situation is weird every which way you look at it.

My guess is that the OP's friend is actually his co-worker and is involved with talent scouting or event planning or something like that. The co-worker/friend tells the Insta model that there's an industry event that she should go to and that he's got it all arranged. He introduces her to the OP and tells her that all the expenses are being taken care of by the company. The OP lives in corporate housing or has access to corporate housing for the prestigious event and that's why she doesn't feel weird staying with him. The OP pays for everything with a corporate card and will be reimbursed by the company.

That's my guess anyway...the OP is being deliberately vague so it's kind of impossible to tell what's going on here.

I'll send you a private msg because this is very off base. We are helping her with a legal financial matter.

OP pays for everything with his own card because he likes giving. For what it's worth we are both in finance. I dabble in events as a hobby, nothing more. She took the baby to the event.

I am not as socially inept as you might believe, I could not do the work I do if I was. It's also a cultural thing in SA, her and I have very similar backgrounds, we grew up the same way so there is a lot of fundamental common ground. Sure a lot of this seems odd but much of my life is odd so really.

Why she stays probably because I am not the guy who is going to try jump her and she knows that, as mentioned I was open and honest from the first time I met her and we talked about a lot of things. 

Sure, she can probably see how much I enjoy her company, I don't hide that fact at all but she has issues of her own which mean I am very sensitive to those, maybe too much so but again I have to use some judgement. She has gone through something I wouldn't wish on anyone so the time was was me simply trying to do something good which I thought she would enjoy. Turns out I enjoyed it a lot too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You get no for 20 years and tell me how you feel. Tell me if it's not a big deal and no personal...I think your view would be very different.

You’re exaggerating. What number of actual rejections have you had in the past 20 years? Where you asked a woman on a date and she said no? Or asking a woman out on a second date from OLD and her saying no? I suspect it’s not more than 5.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Author
10 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re exaggerating. What number of actual rejections have you had in the past 20 years? Where you asked a woman on a date and she said no? Or asking a woman out on a second date from OLD and her saying no? I suspect it’s not more than 5.

All the ones I liked. Far far more than 5

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...