Can this work

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I find wow attractive and important, others might not.

This is going to be a problem. If you just change “wow” with compatible, you’d have far more luck. Your lack of experience has you stuck on attraction and wow. When you have a few relationships you realize how important compatibility is and how “wow” is pretty meaningless. Unfortunately I don’t know how you learn this lesson in your own.

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is going to be a problem. If you just change “wow” with compatible, you’d have far more luck. Your lack of experience has you stuck on attraction and wow. When you have a few relationships you realize how important compatibility is and how “wow” is pretty meaningless. Unfortunately I don’t know how you learn this lesson in your own.

Of course I do consider compatibility hence I do not bother with anyone who think partying and drinking is a good time because such a person wont be compatible with me. Frankly what I have done for 20 odd years is focus on compatibility, just so happened this time I had wow and compatible but it just was not meant to be.

Again such is life.

[Weezy1973]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

just so happened this time I had wow and compatible but it just was not meant to be.

Again, you didn’t have it. Just because you meet someone you’re attracted to doesn’t mean you have anything. She wasn’t interested in you which isn’t a big deal. But how you frame things matters. You keep calling this a loss which it wasn’t. You didn’t have anything; you didn’t lose anything. You didn’t even get rejected because you never expressed real interest. But you’re framing it in your head in way that makes it feel like a loss. But it’s just your thoughts that are your worst enemy here. 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Again, you didn’t have it. Just because you meet someone you’re attracted to doesn’t mean you have anything. She wasn’t interested in you which isn’t a big deal. But how you frame things matters. You keep calling this a loss which it wasn’t. You didn’t have anything; you didn’t lose anything. You didn’t even get rejected because you never expressed real interest. But you’re framing it in your head in way that makes it feel like a loss. But it’s just your thoughts that are your worst enemy here. 

I made my interest quite clear and got rebuffed, anyone who spent any time around me with her saw that interest quite clearly. At least in the context of today I am just feeling pretty indifferent and resigned to what is. I shared a lot of stuff with her I would not ordinarily do so I did put myself out there and on balance I guess I go a lot of what I wanted to experience is it was not all bad even if the result was. 

Its never an issue if someone expresses no interest, it IS an issue if nobody I ever like expresses any interest, that does become a problem, then again I am probably so stupid I could not tell if they were interested. The comfort I have here is ironically the same "facts" nobody here agrees with me about.

[Weezy1973]

38 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Its never an issue if someone expresses no interest, it IS an issue if nobody I ever like expresses any interest, that does become a problem,

If this was hundreds of women, you might have a point. But as far as I can tell you’ve never actually asked out anyone since high school on a date. Your last interest was “K” who was already in a relationship (unavailable) and now this woman who was into wealthy older men (unavailable). I think it’s possible you asked out someone for OLD on a second date? But even that I’m not sure of.

 

So again, how you frame things in your mind is important. It isn’t like you’ve taken all these risks and asked out hundreds of women. The amount of women you’ve been interested in in your life is tiny, and (at least) two of them haven’t been available to you anyways. 

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

If this was hundreds of women, you might have a point. But as far as I can tell you’ve never actually asked out anyone since high school on a date. Your last interest was “K” who was already in a relationship (unavailable) and now this woman who was into wealthy older men (unavailable). I think it’s possible you asked out someone for OLD on a second date? But even that I’m not sure of.

 

So again, how you frame things in your mind is important. It isn’t like you’ve taken all these risks and asked out hundreds of women. The amount of women you’ve been interested in in your life is tiny, and (at least) two of them haven’t been available to you anyways. 

None of the ones I ever like are available. K was single when I met her, a mutual friend told me why she was not interested. "Too shy", "too awkward", "too inexperienced" so I was done there before I even started.

OLD there have been maybe 5 I wanted to see a second time, none wanted to see me a second time, the other 100 or so were people I really felt no attraction to at all. What you need to understand, sure I can try my luck (pre covid) at a house party where nobody is really single and those who are, well I am the least attractive person in the room by a considerable margin, my chances of success there.....basically zero. I weigh up chances of success and OLD was the only platform where I thought I might have some success, 10+ years has proven this assertion to be false.

Its all about belief, simply put I do not believe I can win at this.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Its all about belief, simply put I do not believe I can win at this.

Which has become a self fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t believe you’re capable of finding love then it for sure won’t happen. Just think through that belief logically. Even if you did find mutual attraction, it still wouldn’t work because you don’t believe it’s possible. You’d just be anxious about it ending, and that causes behaviors which end relationships. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Which has become a self fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t believe you’re capable of finding love then it for sure won’t happen. Just think through that belief logically. Even if you did find mutual attraction, it still wouldn’t work because you don’t believe it’s possible. You’d just be anxious about it ending, and that causes behaviors which end relationships. 

All true. My logic is based on the fact nothing in 20 year's has suggested it's possible, nothing has improved, I am not more attractive now than I was then, dates are few and far between, mutual attraction has never happened.

Colour that picture in and the conclusion is obvious.

Nobody I want wants me so I can jump up and down but nothing I can actually do will change that.

[normal person]

18 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

K was single when I met her, a mutual friend told me why she was not interested. "Too shy", "too awkward", "too inexperienced" so I was done there before I even started.

Ok, if you learned anything from this...

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I made my interest quite clear and got rebuffed, anyone who spent any time around me with her saw that interest quite clearly.

...then why did you "show" interest so passively and with such shyness and actually tell her how inexperienced you are? 

[ZA Dater]

27 minutes ago, normal person said:

Ok, if you learned anything from this...

...then why did you "show" interest so passively and with such shyness and actually tell her how inexperienced you are? 

Why not be honest? I'd rather be up front from the start with someone I like than try to play games and pretend to be someone I am not. I simply do not get this "selective information" and the purpose of it.

I'd rather be rejected for being honest than go through a mountain of awkwardness and still be rejected anyway.

Deep down I knew I would not get anywhere with her but it was good for a while at least to have something really good to believe in and not worry too much about the imminent failure. It was lovely to get some attention for the change.

Honestly I could have done a LOT of things differently but I may not have had the overall pleasant experience I did if I had done them. Thinking on my feet is not one of my strong points, I like to think about and strategize, that is just the way I work and this time with her I did less of that and lived more in terms of how I felt at any given time. I dropped the guardedness because I realized I had to.

At the end of the day the guy with the most won, which is not really much of a surprise. For years I have swiped on dating apps with the belief we are all in with the same opportunity and people would have this be true but it is not, does not matter what you do, does not mater who you are, does not matter how much you care, does not matter how motivated you are, does not matter how interesting your story. If you cannot attract the physical attention everything about you as a person is rendered irrelevant. Arrive in a Maserati people notice you, arrive in a Mazda, nobody cares, the fact of the matter is dating is fundamentally superficial and this experience I have had had slammed that home like an undertaker slamming the lid of a coffin. The coffin in this case carries my rather unremarkable, unhappy, unfulfilling dating "career". 

Today at least I have peace, in my mind everything I believe has once again proven to be true as it always has been. I might be wrong but here and now in the world I live in that is my reality. Its about what you have and what you can offer, every single other thing is irrelevant and immaterial, you can be the biggest player but so long as you have nice things, can go nice places, have nice experiences (re the expensive ones) then everything else is ok.

 

[ZA Dater]

A large part of me just thinks its time to just accept what is rather than keep fighting and fighting a completely unwinnable fight where none of the odds favor me. I have tried to turn the odds in my favor but as can be seen that has turned out to be nothing more than a disaster. Its like going to pitch for the red sox and having no idea how to play baseball. I can wish the problem away but its never actually going away and nothing I do will take it away. All I can do is muster as much inner strength as I can to simply carry on with whatever good I can find in life.

I will say though I do feel companionship is the very core of what life is built on. Without it everything else is just going through the motions.

 

 

[elaine567]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

Its like going to pitch for the red sox and having no idea how to play baseball.

Exactly but most in that situation would at least make an attempt to learn how to play baseball.
They would not just sit on the side-lines and lament the fact that they cannot play baseball, no-one gives them the chance to play and it is all just soooo unfair.

Time to take stock, you have no gumption, and until you get some and resolve to go out there and grab some actual experience, then you will always fail with women.
You are 37, not 17 so playing the "I have no experience" card is just plain ridiculous.
Time to stop that nonsense.
NO woman is going to accept that, never mind a woman with 40 000 IG followers...

 

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Exactly but most in that situation would at least make an attempt to learn how to play baseball.
They would not just sit on the side-lines and lament the fact that they cannot play baseball, no-one gives them the chance to play and it is all just soooo unfair.

Time to take stock, you have no gumption, and until you get some and resolve to go out there and grab some actual experience, then you will always fail with women.
You are 37, not 17 so playing the "I have no experience" card is just plain ridiculous.
Time to stop that nonsense.
NO woman is going to accept that, never mind a woman with 40 000 IG followers...

 

So what do you realistically suggest? Paying for it? 

I do not really care how many followers someone has, makes no difference in my life whatsoever. I have been trying to play this game for 20 odd years so frankly I am starting to think sitting on the sidelines is better idea than disappointment after disappointment. 

Sitting on the sidelines I can at least live vicariously which is a LOT better than the dating reality is for me.

SO being honest is ridiculous, well that is a new one.

[NuevoYorko]

On 4/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, ZA Dater said:

Ok I am glad we have ascertained that slim, self supporting , kind, intelligent, warn personality are all unattainable attributes.

Makes me wonder what everyone else looks for.

I believe you are slim, self supporting, and in most aspects intelligent.   Emotional intelligence is important to most women I have known, and to me.  You don't have it and evidently believe that it would be selling yourself out to work on developing some.  

Same goes for kind and warm personality.  Having followed your threads I understand that in your opinion you are kind.  You have not shown kindness or any type of understanding of other people in your threads, which are legion.  Just a few posts up, you write "if I cant get what I want the only sensible alternative is to have nothing." "Get," "what," "have," "nothing."  Language means a lot and your view of women (men too, actually) is objectifying.   Looking at women like acquisitions is something that is not going to get you very far.

If you want to be honest you also, so far, have required that female candidates need to be extremely  objectively attractive, FUN and have what you call "wow factor."  I'm sure plenty of nice slim women with jobs have crossed your path and you discard them as possibilities without looking deeper.  

If a woman seems to be looking for the same qualities you are, you tend to label them "superficial."  

What's up?

 

[jspice]

14 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I believe you are slim, self supporting, and in most aspects intelligent.   Emotional intelligence is important to most women I have known, and to me.  You don't have it and evidently believe that it would be selling yourself out to work on developing some.  

Same goes for kind and warm personality.  Having followed your threads I understand that in your opinion you are kind.  You have not shown kindness or any type of understanding of other people in your threads, which are legion.  Just a few posts up, you write "if I cant get what I want the only sensible alternative is to have nothing." "Get," "what," "have," "nothing."  Language means a lot and your view of women (men too, actually) is objectifying.   Looking at women like acquisitions is something that is not going to get you very far.

If you want to be honest you also, so far, have required that female candidates need to be extremely  objectively attractive, FUN and have what you call "wow factor."  I'm sure plenty of nice slim women with jobs have crossed your path and you discard them as possibilities without looking deeper.  

If a woman seems to be looking for the same qualities you are, you tend to label them "superficial."  

What's up?

 

Preach. 

I’m nice to beautiful women out of my league but F those ugly fat women  

Also: I want her to wow me but I don’t want to have to wow her. She should do all the work because I’m not a sheep who’ll sell himself. 

[ZA Dater]

41 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I believe you are slim, self supporting, and in most aspects intelligent.   Emotional intelligence is important to most women I have known, and to me.  You don't have it and evidently believe that it would be selling yourself out to work on developing some.  

Same goes for kind and warm personality.  Having followed your threads I understand that in your opinion you are kind.  You have not shown kindness or any type of understanding of other people in your threads, which are legion.  Just a few posts up, you write "if I cant get what I want the only sensible alternative is to have nothing." "Get," "what," "have," "nothing."  Language means a lot and your view of women (men too, actually) is objectifying.   Looking at women like acquisitions is something that is not going to get you very far.

If you want to be honest you also, so far, have required that female candidates need to be extremely  objectively attractive, FUN and have what you call "wow factor."  I'm sure plenty of nice slim women with jobs have crossed your path and you discard them as possibilities without looking deeper.  

If a woman seems to be looking for the same qualities you are, you tend to label them "superficial."  

What's up?

 

I am as superficial as the rest of the world is. I never made any post denying I do like good looks, they are as important to me as they are to everyone else, I am just more forthright than most about this. 

Its my choice if I want to have nothing, I'd rather have nothing than waste someone else's time who I feel nothing for and simply use them to gain experience. I have had that option before and turned it down every single time.

You don't seem to get it, everyone objectifies to lesser or greater degrees, I have been on the receiving end of it endlessly. I have been thrown away like rubbish so I do not feel the need to do the same, again I'd rather have nothing than get into a situation where I land up having someone really liking me who I feel nothing for. Again I have been there once or twice.

Actually I have sat on dating sites for the better part of 10 years and I waiting for any of those apparently slim ladies to "cross" my path. I might be waiting a long time for this. They never bother swiping right on me, irrespective of what bio and profile picture I use.

I am quite happy to be labelled superficial because quite frankly the entire world of dating is built on everything that is superficial, I am quite happy to wear that tag. Never ever have I seen the guy who really tried hard win out against the good looking guy, or the guy with the most or the most successful guy. Seemingly we are all judged on a relatively small list of criteria and fortunately or unfortunately because of the life I live sometimes this get hammered home very graphically.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

31 minutes ago, jspice said:

Preach. 

I’m nice to beautiful women out of my league but F those ugly fat women  

Also: I want her to wow me but I don’t want to have to wow her. She should do all the work because I’m not a sheep who’ll sell himself. 

I simply do not engage with people on dating sites I do not find attractive. I spend quite a lot of time working out to look fit so is it too much to expect a date to do the same, apparently yes.

When I meet people I treat them all the same irrespective of appearance, its just somewhat ironic the most unfit people are the only ones who find me attractive.  Which is why I am fairly content to just sit on the sidelines and let those who can play and attract people who they find attractive play the same.

If I have to force myself to find someone attractive there is absolutely no point in dating at all. None.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Never ever have I seen the guy who really tried hard win out against the good looking guy, or the guy with the most or the most successful guy.

Again, most people are married or in relationships. To people they love and find attractive. And most people match (relatively speaking) in those aspects. To say no average or below average guy has won is just a considerable misrepresentation of the real world. 
 

The goal for winning is a healthy relationship. That’s the win. The superficial characteristics aren’t even really part of the equation. But since you’ve never been in a relationship I do understand why you’re stuck on thinking attractiveness is all that matters. 
 

And no, nobody is suggesting you date someone you don’t find attractive. Try this. Make a list of “must haves”. Then a list of “nice to haves” but not necessary. In terms of the types of characteristics you would like from a relationship partner. 

[ZA Dater]

32 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Again, most people are married or in relationships. To people they love and find attractive. And most people match (relatively speaking) in those aspects. To say no average or below average guy has won is just a considerable misrepresentation of the real world. 
 

The goal for winning is a healthy relationship. That’s the win. The superficial characteristics aren’t even really part of the equation. But since you’ve never been in a relationship I do understand why you’re stuck on thinking attractiveness is all that matters. 
 

And no, nobody is suggesting you date someone you don’t find attractive. Try this. Make a list of “must haves”. Then a list of “nice to haves” but not necessary. In terms of the types of characteristics you would like from a relationship partner. 

Dating itself for me now is in the 'nice to have", "don't need to have" category. Sure people get married all the time to people they hopefully find attractive, I do not dispute that. My observations are based on my own experiences. I can tell you emphatically nobody I match with on OLD I find attractive at all, not even slightly.  Those I do find attractive, the bigger wallet the more success, the more wealth, the better looks, those all matter because those people have endless choice and they will pick the person who has the most, as would any of us here. That my point.

If none of the superficial things matter guys would not take ladies on expensive dinner dates, McDonalds would do, would it not? You think about how much superficial is needed to sell oneself and prove you are the better choice and then tell me superficial does not matter. My direct experience suggests superficial and lots of it opens the door but you then need to be able to play the game when that door is open, if you cannot do either its a fundamentally pointless game to play which will only ever end in disappointment,  in my experience anyway.

Nobody generates attraction by opening a door or pulling out a chair but an expensive dinner can go a long way. Apparently. 

How healthy are most relationships, I cannot think of one around me which is healthy at all, they all verge on use and be used, provide and take, barter and trade, love for what I can bring rather than who I am. No I had this romantic notion that being the best person one can be would count for something, in fact it counts for nothing at all. 

For all my endless dating failure at least I know the things which do bring success, just so happens I have none of those things. 

I used to think a lot of things mattered but what I have learnt from here and 20 years of nothing is that none of those things matter actually or if they do, none of them get the door open.

Is it really worth it if a person has to bend over backwards and compromise so much that there is literally nothing enjoyable about the experience, no wow, nothing.

 

[jspice]

You reason like a 10 year old. It’s truly bizarre and weird that you can’t think critically and believe you’re this virtuous white knight. 
At this point you’re really just looking for attention.
 

[trident_2020]

44 minutes ago, jspice said:

At this point you’re really just looking for attention.
 

He gets it though, gotta give him that much.

[ZA Dater]

32 minutes ago, jspice said:

You reason like a 10 year old. It’s truly bizarre and weird that you can’t think critically and believe you’re this virtuous white knight. 
At this point you’re really just looking for attention.
 

None of your insults really bother me. I do think very critically hence the above observations. Nothing white knight about me, chivalry is dead after all. I suspect that memo was sent out sometime when fax machines were still in use or was it the telex machine.

Point is people cannot tell me superficial is irrelevant when almost every single dating interaction starts with the meeting of superficial criteria. A person is not going to want to sleep with someone you do not find physically attractive, irrespective of how many hours they spends at an animal shelter. 

Good at this bad at that, counter bad with good, hope the good is superficially good enough to appeal and the bad not bad enough to be a deal breaker, that is the way I see dating. Those with more superficial qualities get the audition, those who do not get shown the door. Yes you can audition many if the person themselves has many superficial qualities, in my mind those who do not will always have limited choice, either accept that or reject that. Yes, SOMETIMES personality can supersede this but in my experience not often, maybe she has an interesting point of view, maybe she is very confident, maybe she has nice mannerisms, maybe she has a warm personality. All are desirable but not if there is no superficial attraction, for me the entire idea becomes a non event and I think it would for many guys if they were honest. 

Nobody wants to walk through life alone but balance walking alone versus walking with someone you don't want to walk with and the end result is largely the same, in my view anyway.

What I have learnt is no matter what I do the results will always be the same and that ironically makes me sleep alright because I now know the result is not something I have any control over. I do not have the things people I like want and I wont ever have those things, again cold comfort but comfort nonetheless. I cant change the game but I can see it unfold.

[Weezy1973]

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I can tell you emphatically nobody I match with on OLD I find attractive at all, not even slightly.

This isn’t true yet you keep saying it. You mentioned you were attracted to multiple women from OLD and even got a first date with them. More accurate would be that the majority of women you’re not attracted to with a few that you are. I believe you estimated about 5%, which seem about right for OLD. 
 

45 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 Those I do find attractive, the bigger wallet the more success, the more wealth, the better looks, those all matter because those people have endless choice and they will pick the person who has the most, as would any of us here. That my point.

Your point is that you’re only attracted to superficial women? And whenever someone says “like anybody” or “as would any of us” they’re trying to minimize what they consider a negative side of themselves. No, many people would forego some superficial qualities for a more meaningful connection. And again, less attractive does not mean unattractive. 

 

48 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

If none of the superficial things matter guys would not take ladies on expensive dinner dates, McDonalds would do, would it not?

Guys who like expensive dinners should take their dates out on expensive dinner dates. Guys who like McDonalds should take women to get ice cream.

 

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You think about how much superficial is needed to sell oneself and prove you are the better choice and then tell me superficial does not matter.

It doesn’t matter because like attracts like. If you were happy with someone that matched your attractiveness level you’d be fine.

 

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Nobody generates attraction by opening a door or pulling out a chair but an expensive dinner can go a long way. Apparently. 

I’d say both these will generate the same amount of attraction depending on the woman. Most women I know wouldn’t be impressed at all with an expensive dinner as they’d think it was a waste of money.

 

54 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

How healthy are most relationships, I cannot think of one around me which is healthy at all,

How many married people are you friends with? I mostly know married people and most seem healthy with a couple that don’t. 

 

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Is it really worth it if a person has to bend over backwards and compromise so much that there is literally nothing enjoyable about the experience, no wow, nothing.

No, that wouldn’t be worth it. 

[jspice]

23 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

He gets it though, gotta give him that much.

For sure! For many years now. 

[jspice]

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

None of your insults really bother me. I do think very critically hence the above observations. Nothing white knight about me, chivalry is dead after all. I suspect that memo was sent out sometime when fax machines were still in use or was it the telex machine.

Point is people cannot tell me superficial is irrelevant when almost every single dating interaction starts with the meeting of superficial criteria. A person is not going to want to sleep with someone you do not find physically attractive, irrespective of how many hours they spends at an animal shelter. 

Good at this bad at that, counter bad with good, hope the good is superficially good enough to appeal and the bad not bad enough to be a deal breaker, that is the way I see dating. Those with more superficial qualities get the audition, those who do not get shown the door. Yes you can audition many if the person themselves has many superficial qualities, in my mind those who do not will always have limited choice, either accept that or reject that. Yes, SOMETIMES personality can supersede this but in my experience not often, maybe she has an interesting point of view, maybe she is very confident, maybe she has nice mannerisms, maybe she has a warm personality. All are desirable but not if there is no superficial attraction, for me the entire idea becomes a non event and I think it would for many guys if they were honest. 

Nobody wants to walk through life alone but balance walking alone versus walking with someone you don't want to walk with and the end result is largely the same, in my view anyway.

What I have learnt is no matter what I do the results will always be the same and that ironically makes me sleep alright because I now know the result is not something I have any control over. I do not have the things people I like want and I wont ever have those things, again cold comfort but comfort nonetheless. I cant change the game but I can see it unfold.

No, in fact you do not think critically. You “observe” your small group of so-called friends and believe the whole world is that way. 
Funny how you always find “insults” in posts when you’re the one constantly insulting the rest of us.