Can this work

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, jspice said:

No, in fact you do not think critically. You “observe” your small group of so-called friends and believe the whole world is that way. 
Funny how you always find “insults” in posts when you’re the one constantly insulting the rest of us. 

 

Do me a favour, you go and sit in Camps Bay and tell me my observations are wrong, or the promenade or the days when there were clubs in Claremont. Or heck even a house party in upper town.

 

[ZA Dater]

34 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

This isn’t true yet you keep saying it. You mentioned you were attracted to multiple women from OLD and even got a first date with them. More accurate would be that the majority of women you’re not attracted to with a few that you are. I believe you estimated about 5%, which seem about right for OLD. 
 

Your point is that you’re only attracted to superficial women? And whenever someone says “like anybody” or “as would any of us” they’re trying to minimize what they consider a negative side of themselves. No, many people would forego some superficial qualities for a more meaningful connection. And again, less attractive does not mean unattractive. 

 

Guys who like expensive dinners should take their dates out on expensive dinner dates. Guys who like McDonalds should take women to get ice cream.

 

It doesn’t matter because like attracts like. If you were happy with someone that matched your attractiveness level you’d be fine.

 

I’d say both these will generate the same amount of attraction depending on the woman. Most women I know wouldn’t be impressed at all with an expensive dinner as they’d think it was a waste of money.

 

How many married people are you friends with? I mostly know married people and most seem healthy with a couple that don’t. 

 

No, that wouldn’t be worth it. 

In 14 years I have found maybe 7 people on OLD I found attractive. Out of probably 200. I did the numbers thing went out with whoever irrespective of how attractive I found them.

Ok so someone who isn't in shape is my attractiveness level. 

Too many married people, almost all complain about their spouse endlessly and many are clearly not happy, others divorced. 

Everyone likes superficial to varying degrees. That's my point. It gets you noticed.

Never found anyone who gets wooed by ice cream or in fact any date I have managed to conjure up barring this weekend away which she did enjoy. 

[jspice]

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do me a favour, you go and sit in Camps Bay and tell me my observations are wrong, or the promenade or the days when there were clubs in Claremont. Or heck even a house party in upper town.

 

I don’t look for partners in a club or a house party. 
That’s not my scene so I don’t go there. I stopped going to clubs in my late twenties. I’ve told you this several times. 

I also don’t drink or braai or watch rugby, but if my friends invite me to a rugby game I’ll damn sure go and have a good time because I enjoy their company. I’m not going to sit a corner and sulk because I don’t like rugby and judge everyone for having a beer while I sip my Coke or water. 
 

Nobody said those people don’t exist but you’re talking like those are the only people in the world and you’re forced to be around them. 

 

 

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Emotional intelligence is important to most women I have known.  You don't have it.

Yup! This is it. 

[Weezy1973]

48 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so someone who isn't in shape is my attractiveness level. 

I’ve explained aspirational dating before. If you actually matched with these women, then yes. But you’re not. These are just the women that swiped right on you. They’re hoping to get someone out of their league, just like you. 

[basil67]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am as superficial as the rest of the world is. 

And yet when I talk about being connected to someone initially because of their personality and falling in love with the whole package, you accuse us of "settling".  

Yes, some of the world is superficial.  You are superficial.  But the rest of the world is not superficial.  Loving someone despite them not being the hottest of the hot is not settling.   Heck I've been with the love of my life for 30 years and he's average looking.  But give me a lifetime of love and connection with a regular looking dude over decades of bitterness and singledom any day. 

[basil67]

On 4/12/2021 at 3:03 AM, ZA Dater said:

I made my interest quite clear and got rebuffed, anyone who spent any time around me with her saw that interest quite clearly.

Uh...nope.  Your approach was to be a friend and hope that she would see you as more.  We all told you that this approach won't work and surprise, surprise, it failed.  

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by basil67

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

In 14 years I have found maybe 7 people on OLD I found attractive.

Is it possible you're simply too picky?

[BaileyB]

33 minutes ago, basil67 said:

But give me a lifetime of love and connection with a regular looking dude over decades of bitterness and singledom any day. 

Give me a lifetime of love and connection with a regular looking dude any day... 

Give me an average man who is smart and makes me laugh, someone who is hardworking and devoted to his family, a man who makes me feel good when we are together, someone with whom I can have some fun and perhaps a few good adventures, someone who holds me when I’m sad and tells me it will be ok - and I’m willing to overlook a few “flaws.” 

Physical appearance is only skin deep and it fades with age, for everyone. These other things ^^^, well, that will bring you joy and happiness for a lifetime. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by BaileyB

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

Physical appearance is only skin deep and it fades with age, for everyone. These other things ^^^, well, that will bring you joy and happiness for a lifetime. 

I think for most people though it takes awhile to figure this out. And given @ZA Dater has never had a relationship, he’s kind of stuck in the immature superficial mindset. I’m sure a lot of people were more superficial when they were young and inexperienced.

[NuevoYorko]

Let's try this:

Do you feel you have aspects of your personality that would benefit from some work?  I'm talking about self improvement, not doing actions to try to get what you feel you're entitled to have.

Do you think that you have faults?  

If you choose to answer, please just leave out all the stuff about how society is so unfair and superficial, and how that is standing in your way.   

 

 

 

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so someone who isn't in shape is my attractiveness level.

If no slim or attractive women are matching with you then it is obvious they are bypassing you for other guys.
They obviously do not see you as being on their level, that unfortunately for you is the bottom line.
It appears nothing on your profile is attracting them or even making them curious to meet you.
The proof is all there and has been for years, yet you keep on with the nonsense that as you are slim, you deserve a slim and attractive woman.
Slim women obviously don't agree with you, else they would be beating a path to your door both on OLD and in real life.

As it is, according to you, you are not even attracting "average" women. 
It seems "out of shape" women do either see you on their level or they are merely swiping on every man on the site in desperation.
It is not a good place to be, but it is reality and no amount of saying it shouldn't be so will alter that.

If you are selling shoddy goods that no-one is buying, then your strategy needs to be changed surely?
It is the same with dating, if you keep refusing to change and learn from your own and other's experience, you will keep getting the same poor results.
Hoping a princess will come and save you is delusional and not how it works.
 

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Let's try this:

Do you feel you have aspects of your personality that would benefit from some work?  I'm talking about self improvement, not doing actions to try to get what you feel you're entitled to have.

Do you think that you have faults?  

If you choose to answer, please just leave out all the stuff about how society is so unfair and superficial, and how that is standing in your way.   

 

 

 

Every single person walking this earth has faults so I do too. Nothing is about entitlement here at all, I simply made a fair statement that superficial qualities do matter, they are what gets your looked at and for some they might be enough to get an interview. 

Its pretty much impossible to rate ones own personality as the level of bias is off the charts. Nevertheless, I am not someone who makes an instant fantastic impression, not really because I listen generally before I speak so no against the really outgoing, go getter, charmer, flirter I really struggle. Yes, sometimes I can muster up some confidence but usually that is when ostensibly I can see I am in with a chance and that is rare indeed because the fundamentals rarely favor me and my personality.

Fundamentally I am shy until there is some sort of common ground or conversation topic. Could I be more outgoing, sure but the fundamental problem is usually there is no meeting of minds at all, hard to explain but just no conversational connection to be had, other guys are a lot better at this, usually through charm and I do not have that, what I have is straightforward honesty and a great degree of seriousness, other guys do well with humor, my dry humor does not work so well, if ever.

Yes I will admit when it comes to dating interactions I take the approach of loss from the off because then I am not too surprised at the inevitable, other guys seem to take the opposite approach but he difference is they actually have had some wins, I have not so there is a lot of confidence issues, more so because my reading of people is not that great in the dating sense, I am trying to improve it but honestly there is a lack of motivation.

Could motivation be personality, maybe, maybe not. Truthfully this lovely interaction aside I have little motivation to do cold approaches because fundamentally I am ill suited to them and without charm and flirty interaction they just go the way of a business meeting, which again with K the interactions went well because it was mostly business and very little else so I never needed to be anything else but businesslike.

With this interaction I had to show emotion and feelings which I did in the best way I knew how by communicating, we had a lot of deep chats about many different things, things I have not shared before but again women don't seem to want that, they seem to want the happy go lucky guy who shows enough of himself to charm her but not enough of the bad to turn her off. The burden of history I carry around with me means I wont ever be that guy.

My view is I can throw my personality open and then go and pick and choose what I want to keep but the reality is I cant throw any of the stuff away either because so much of my personality is linked to my moral compass, my views on the world in general, my view toward people and how I interact with them. The truth is I have never had many friends so most of my interaction is business so it figures I am best at that, again women do not want that, they want a guy who can make them feel special, which I try to do when I get the very rare opportunity to do so.

Everyone can improve the only thing that differs is the degree of that improvement. Me, sure I am more outgoing than I was 5 years ago but the opportunities have not gotten any better nor have the interactions. A lot of my personality is defined by the reality I live with each day and so much of that reality now is full of regret and shame. 

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

If no slim or attractive women are matching with you then it is obvious they are bypassing you for other guys.
They obviously do not see you as being on their level, that unfortunately for you is the bottom line.
It appears nothing on your profile is attracting them or even making them curious to meet you.
The proof is all there and has been for years, yet you keep on with the nonsense that as you are slim, you deserve a slim and attractive woman.
Slim women obviously don't agree with you, else they would be beating a path to your door both on OLD and in real life.

As it is, according to you, you are not even attracting "average" women. 
It seems "out of shape" women do either see you on their level or they are merely swiping on every man on the site in desperation.
It is not a good place to be, but it is reality and no amount of saying it shouldn't be so will alter that.

If you are selling shoddy goods that no-one is buying, then your strategy needs to be changed surely?
It is the same with dating, if you keep refusing to change and learn from your own and other's experience, you will keep getting the same poor results.
Hoping a princess will come and save you is delusional and not how it works.
 

I have done everything I can when it comes to OLD. That is the bottom line there, its been interesting because its just colored in the picture I had of dating and proven most of what I believe to be true so has not been a total waste from that point of view. 

I deserve nothing, that is quite clear and I will probably land up with nothing, that's the reality.

Of course nothing in my profile will attract them when I have none of the superficial qualities people want, no issue there and I accept that. What you are not getting, I accept this as truth and I accept it as reality, nothing I can do will change those things, for years I have fought against this in the belief I can overcome these issues, simply put I realize I cannot overcome them.

I have nothing to offer people, I get it, nothing I am selling has any value, I get that too. Does not make me a bad person just makes me in dating terms a piece of rubbish. Either I choose to define myself by what dating thinks I am or what I know I am.

I appreciate the guidance from others. Fundamentally there is nothing that can be done with someone who has no value superficially. Its like arriving at an interview in PJs, you might be the best candidate but you will never get past that. That is me, I believe the things I have to offer have value but there nothing superficial around them to actually pique interest so the result will always be the same. Heck this time I actually put a concerted effort to show the good things about me but those still did not matter.

Despite what people say here I have really tried and the ROI is simply not there.

Your idea of just dating anyone who has any interest is wholly unappealing, far more so than living out however long I have left on this planet on my own. I can sit and lament the cards I have but that does not change them, does not change the reality, does not change the fact that ostensibly they are useless with no value. People tell me all sort of nice things "you are a really great friend", "you are a really loyal nice guy and are so good to me", you are so thoughtful and supportive", "you are the one person who is always honest" but all of this rings a bit hollow really in the grand scheme of things because again these qualities are worthless when it comes to dating. I have had enough opportunity in 20 years to sell them and nobody buys and the reasons are obvious, these are accepted minimum qualities, its the superficial ones that make the difference between leaving as her friend or taking her home.

I get it women, want to feel wanted, they want to feel desired, they want that flirting, they want that charming. I have none of those qualities so the fact I sit her alone with no prospects is not surprising to me, I have basically spent years trying to sell the unsellable and I always knew that would be the case, I knew way back when I had no idea how to flirt, I watched people who were good at it but its never worked for me, awkwardness and unease are hard things to hide and often they arrive. 

For all the dates I have been on the experience has never improved, yes I have come less awkward, yes I do communicate better, yes I do have good eye contact but I am still pretty cold, still generally find the process to be contrived, seldom find anyone who stimulates my mind, often have to lead the conversation, often find the conversation does not flow, often find a lack a common ground. 

The only thing that sort of kept me going was an idea I had of how nice it could be, what I saw with guys who had gfs, how nice that interaction could be, how nice that connection is, how nice it is to share with someone, how nice it is to share interests and support each other. How nice it was to do things together, to have someone else take an interest. I pretty much with this lady ticked off all those, every single one of them so in effect I realized probably 80% of the idea but what I did not reckon on was how nice the experience would be, how fulfilling it was to spend extended amounts of time with someone I could just be myself with, talk about anything with and even time spent with a toddler, I never realized how nice that would be.

So yes the reality is for a few short weeks I had what everyone here tells me is unattainable, what more is there to get really?

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Of course nothing in my profile will attract them when I have none of the superficial qualities people want, no issue there and I accept that.

You do have attractive qualities, but just not the qualities the women you’re attracted to are looking for. As I’ve said before, if you were looking for marriage and kids, I think many women would have interest. You seem to have “good father, good husband” qualities, and many women do prioritize those. Just not the ones you like, as you don’t prioritize “good mother, good wife” qualities in women either. 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

You do have attractive qualities, but just not the qualities the women you’re attracted to are looking for. As I’ve said before, if you were looking for marriage and kids, I think many women would have interest. You seem to have “good father, good husband” qualities, and many women do prioritize those. Just not the ones you like, as you don’t prioritize “good mother, good wife” qualities in women either. 

I think and this cuts both ways qualities are not mutually exclusive. You forget this lady is a single mother and those qualities did not help at all. Granted they made me an acquaintance friend of sorts.

[5x5]

On 4/12/2021 at 3:03 AM, ZA Dater said:

I made my interest quite clear and got rebuffed, anyone who spent any time around me with her saw that interest quite clearly.

Since you didn't actually say something like; "I would like you to go on a date with me, not as friends." or variations of the same. Or made a sexual pass at her, tried to kiss her lips etc. And or just directly propositioned her for sex, asked her "Do you want to f***?". Then no, your interest wasn't clear at all.

Seriously at your age you would do well to appreciate the fact that women can't read your mind. Plus playing friend as a tactic to woo them, is hardly likely to ever get you into any woman's knickers.

On 4/12/2021 at 11:40 PM, ZA Dater said:

Why not be honest? I'd rather be up front from the start with someone I like than try to play games and pretend to be someone I am not. I simply do not get this "selective information" and the purpose of it.

Yet you were never honest with her at all, in fact your whole approach was manipulative and underhanded. Seriously if you were honest,  you would have just asked her out on a romantic date, and made a sexual pass at her or propositioned her for a good rogering.

21 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nobody generates attraction by opening a door or pulling out a chair but an expensive dinner can go a long way. Apparently.

My wife thought I was the bees knees (swoon) and still does, because I lent her my suit jacket to keep her warm (exposing myself to the cold) during our first evening date.

All of that said, you remain determined to fail at this. Which given your considerable disdain towards so many women, that may be a good thing.

[normal person]

20 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do think very critically hence the above observations.

Not when it doesn't bolster your argument. Saying things like:

"I guess being nice and accommodating counts for nothing"
"The only relationships I see are built on deceit" 
etc

If you really believe these things, then perhaps it's a byproduct of your very limited life experience in this arena, and maybe you should take some of the advice given to you here on how to get more and you'll see how different things are in reality. If you don't actually believe them, then stop using it as a defense, it's just an unwelcome, time consuming distraction from actual things that could help the situation. It's incredibly childish. You do this quite a bit. 

On 4/12/2021 at 12:45 PM, NuevoYorko said:

Emotional intelligence is important to most women I have known, and to me.  You don't have it and evidently believe that it would be selling yourself out to work on developing some [...] Same goes for kind and warm personality. 

Brilliant post. 

[5x5]

At the end of the day @ZA Dater, until/unless you have an epiphany and change your mindset and attitude, there is no getting out of your own self imposed failure.

Of which, there have been so many people here, who have tried to help you do that over the years. Yet the reality is until you stop railing against the reality you face and take on board some of the tremendous advice you have received, no one can help you.

Edited April 13, 2021 by 5x5

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You forget this lady is a single mother and those qualities did not help at all.

You'd be naive to think that that's all that matters. It's really convenient for you to say "look, we matched on culture/lifestyle/morals/etc and she still didn't like me," as if that's all that matters to her. Consider that you branded yourself only as a "friend" and are flummoxed that she doesn't respect you as more than that. 

[ZA Dater]

35 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Since you didn't actually say something like; "I would like you to go on a date with me, not as friends." or variations of the same. Or made a sexual pass at her, tried to kiss her lips etc. And or just directly propositioned her for sex, asked her "Do you want to f***?". Then no, your interest wasn't clear at all.

Seriously at your age you would do well to appreciate the fact that women can't read your mind. Plus playing friend as a tactic to woo them, is hardly likely to ever get you into any woman's knickers.

Yet you were never honest with her at all, in fact your whole approach was manipulative and underhanded. Seriously if you were honest,  you would have just asked her out on a romantic date, and made a sexual pass at her or propositioned her for a good rogering.

My wife thought I was the bees knees (swoon) and still does, because I lent her my suit jacket to keep her warm (exposing myself to the cold) during our first evening date.

All of that said, you remain determined to fail at this. Which given your considerable disdain towards so many women, that may be a good thing.

I do not seriously believe your tactic above would work but it clearly has for you. I could not make a pass any someone even if I wanted to, I missed that class way back when. I not going to ask a newly widowed lady out on a date when I can see her emotions are raw and she is dealing with many unpleasant thing, maybe the wrong judgement call but I do not regret making the call I did, I just simply got beaten by a guy who did not think the same and went where I didnt feel appropriate to go. Oh and he has more anyway so I would have lost out irrespective.

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, normal person said:

You'd be naive to think that that's all that matters. It's really convenient for you to say "look, we matched on culture/lifestyle/morals/etc and she still didn't like me," as if that's all that matters to her. Consider that you branded yourself only as a "friend" and are flummoxed that she doesn't respect you as more than that. 

Of course it does not, simply put I lost out on the emotional and superficial things, nothing I  could have done would have changed those facts, why date an inexperienced guy when you can date a 47 yo with plenty of experience and plenty of wealth and other superficial qualities. I had a grandstand seat to see how these qualities were best used to impress her and impress her they did. Every single piece of superficial he could use he did and I am not knocking that its just the reality. 

I'd never have been able to be more than a friend because I simply do not measure up, just like I never actually do with people who have tons of options. Maybe this is good, I never get the success I want but I can keep myself deluded that I might yet find it.

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Every single person walking this earth has faults so I do too. Nothing is about entitlement here at all, I simply made a fair statement that superficial qualities do matter, they are what gets your looked at and for some they might be enough to get an interview. 

 

I asked if you  believe you have any faults or weaknesses within yourself.

You lead with "every single person walking this earth."  I specifically asked you to please leave society and its ills out of it.

Immediately you go to what is standing in your way in dating:  the superficialness of others.  I don't want to get into your exhausting and immature circular reasoning on this but it can serve as an example:

You come off as an extremely superficial individual.  Yet you've said (literally) countless times that you've only seen 7 people you found attractive in a decade or so of looking at profiles.  

Perhaps this could indicate to you that your superficiality may be an impediment in your life and your personal fulfillment.  Maybe you could work on that?

It illustrates how judgmental you are.  Could this be something you could work on? 

According to what you share here, you only look at things in a transactional way and one in which the responsibility lies on other people:  "I can't get what I want (as if it's a car you're trying to order); why is society so screwed up?"  

Again:  Is there anything about yourself that you feel you need to work on.  Self improvement.  Not "give to get" or succumbing to societal pressures.

Can you name 3 things without any further spinning? 

 

[ZA Dater]

32 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

At the end of the day @ZA Dater, until/unless you have an epiphany and change your mindset and attitude, there is no getting out of your own self imposed failure.

Of which, there have been so many people here, who have tried to help you do that over the years. Yet the reality is until you stop railing against the reality you face and take on board some of the tremendous advice you have received, no one can help you.

I do not devalue the advice the reality is a lot of it simply does not make any sense to me at all, really it does not. On the one hand I must date hundreds of people in the hope one might actually be appealing, assuming I could find these people to begin with, then someone else will tell me not to go on dates with unattractive people, while someone else basically tells me unattractive people are my level so I must just deal with it, someone else tells me I must try kiss every date, another person tells me I must ask her if she wants to sleep with me. You read all of this and try make sense of what to ACTUALLY DO. 

The reality is I am unattractive, have nothing superficially attractive about me, none of my traits have value, I have nothing to offer anyone, its bad to have no experience and I have none so really the reality is completely hopeless on every single level. There is apparently not one thing about me which people like. I can live with this to some extent because at least after this latest loss I know why I keep loosing, I know that no matter the VERY best version of me is still not good enough, even when a lot of the interaction goes right and there is something in common, if it wont work with these fundamentals it will simply never work at all with someone I have nothing in common with, battle to communicate with and am generally incompatible with.

Someone here put it very nicely "you are trapped" and effectively I am because there is nothing redeeming about me for the people I find attractive, I am trapped because of choices I made, experiences I passed up, things I thought I could pick up later in life, opportunities I did not take advantage of. I know all of this and need to live with it each and every single day. I'll never have a family, I know that. I'll never actually get to actually love anyone at all and I'll never be loved either.

People can mock me all you want, you can mock the fact I do not ask people to sleep with me or make passes, the reality is I do not know how to seduce anyone, how is a guy who cannot flirt ever going to seduce anyone, the answer is never or  guy who cannot even get a date with someone he does find attractive. Reality, I have no issue facing it and its a heavy burden to carry but there are others who carry far worse.

I appreciate the help and guidance, I spend a long time, many a sleepless night trying to take stock, trying to figure out how to get better matches, I spend hours in stores looking at new clothing, buying what I feel confident in, I spend a long time trying to be more positive and more confident but to what end really? 

Reality, I live in it every single day.

[normal person]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not seriously believe your tactic above would work but it clearly has for you.

This is how it's often done, though. Perhaps you "not believing it would work" has been why you haven't been successful after decades of trying other things that clearly have no success rate.

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I could not make a pass any someone even if I wanted to, I missed that class way back when.

There was no class. You learn by trial and error. You've never tried. You even have a leg up here with people giving you advice on how to do it, what's acceptable, etc. Lots of people here didn't have that advantage and still figured it out on their own. 

4 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I not going to ask a newly widowed lady out on a date when I can see her emotions are raw and she is dealing with many unpleasant thing

But you're willing to befriend her with hopes that she eventually does fall for you and your "honesty?" Look, even if you did make an understandable judgment call, would you have done anything different if she wasn't a grieving widow? 

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

why date an inexperienced guy when you can date a 47 yo with plenty of experience and plenty of wealth and other superficial qualities. I had a grandstand seat to see how these qualities were best used to impress her and impress her they did. Every single piece of superficial he could use he did and I am not knocking that its just the reality. 

Fine. But you're seemingly well off, you drive super cars (about as superficial as it gets), you're time affluent. You're clearly far from a pauper yourself, and you're more age appropriate than the guy she picked. The playing field doesn't seem so wide with that regard as you had the same equipment. Maybe you were outmatched on something else?

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

the reality is I do not know how to seduce anyone, how is a guy who cannot flirt ever going to seduce anyone, the answer is never

The same way everyone does it, you try something and you learn from the outcome. You've been doing the same things for quite a while and you haven't yet figured out it isn't working. Maybe it's time to try something a little more bold?