Can this work

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I asked if you  believe you have any faults or weaknesses within yourself.

You lead with "every single person walking this earth."  I specifically asked you to please leave society and its ills out of it.

Immediately you go to what is standing in your way in dating:  the superficialness of others.  I don't want to get into your exhausting and immature circular reasoning on this but it can serve as an example:

You come off as an extremely superficial individual.  Yet you've said (literally) countless times that you've only seen 7 people you found attractive in a decade or so of looking at profiles.  

Perhaps this could indicate to you that your superficiality may be an impediment in your life and your personal fulfillment.  Maybe you could work on that?

It illustrates how judgmental you are.  Could this be something you could work on? 

According to what you share here, you only look at things in a transactional way and one in which the responsibility lies on other people:  "I can't get what I want (as if it's a car you're trying to order); why is society so screwed up?"  

Again:  Is there anything about yourself that you feel you need to work on.  Self improvement.  Not "give to get" or succumbing to societal pressures.

Can you name 3 things without any further spinning? 

 

I simply do not agree. Why is it OTHERS can date attractive people but when I state what I do not find attractive I get roundly criticized for it? Ask yourself why I only found 7 attractive, I have stated many I like overall attractiveness which implies not defined by one thing.

Simply put I am not going to date people I find unattractive, its a complete waste of time but again I suppose I am wrong about this!

Judgmental, no my friend I am no more and no less judgmental than everyone else around me, for years I have been judged as the odd ball, the odd one out so no when I meet people I am least judgmental of many but again this reasoning tacitly seems to indicate "well take what you can get". 

Are you seriously debating the state of society? Are you seriously telling me dating is utopia? Are you seriously telling me that superficial things have NO bearing on attraction at ALL?

No there is nothing I need to work on beyond what has already been stated in an earlier post because at the end of the day I can work, work and work and still have no value whatsoever.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, normal person said:

This is how it's often done, though. Perhaps you "not believing it would work" has been why you haven't been successful after decades of trying other things that clearly have no success rate.

There was no class. You learn by trial and error. You've never tried. You even have a leg up here with people giving you advice on how to do it, what's acceptable, etc. Lots of people here didn't have that advantage and still figured it out on their own. 

But you're willing to befriend her with hopes that she eventually does fall for you and your "honesty?" Look, even if you did make an understandable judgment call, would you have done anything different if she wasn't a grieving widow? 

Fine. But you're seemingly well off, you drive super cars (about as superficial as it gets), you're time affluent. You're clearly far from a pauper yourself, and you're more age appropriate than the guy she picked. The playing field doesn't seem so wide with that regard as you had the same equipment. Maybe you were outmatched on something else?

The same way everyone does it, you try something and you learn from the outcome. You've been doing the same things for quite a while and you haven't yet figured out it isn't working. Maybe it's time to try something a little more bold? 

Had she not been a widow and I receive very strong advice from someone I do trust to not try date her I would have perhaps been more open, particularly when things went better than they have ever done. On the other hand she knew I was harmless, she knows I have no experience, she knows I am lonely, she knows I have not dated so the fact I did not do anything would not surprise her.

Sorry re paragraph one I was not raised to speak to women like that, the idea of asking someone "hey do you want to f*ck' is very off putting and likely to result in a slap. Sure, people on here told me to try kiss a date, I had a good date with someone and tried exactly that, the look of horror on her face wont be something I will forget in a hurry, needless to say no date 2 ever happened.

I am not well off I am ok. Not where I want to be but hopefully will be someday. I get to live in that world because of work and hobbies. I got outmatched because he had friends who REALLY sold him, whereas I had friends who I suspect sold me as some sort of pity project. Irrespective he has considerably more to offer than me so its no surprise I lost. 

Tell me how you learn from a repulsed look on someone's face when you try kiss them, what is to be learned there? 

Some Saturdays I got a food market, its outdoors, very summer like and full of people. Lots of attractive people for that matter and I sit there and eat on my own, looking around me, I see the same things ever single week, I see the same interactions, I see the same superficial interactions and you know someone once said to me, in fact this women did "Oh there are lots of girls for you here", there might be but when I sit there and think what I have to offer them the answer is really nothing because I have been here before with these same sort of people at house parties, dont drink, that's a big NO, don't have fun that's a big NO. 

There will always be guys who tick their boxes, they can choose so why would they choose a guy who ticks none? They would not, much like I would not pick someone who ticks none of my boxes.

I think most of me just regrets there is no way I can be more like what people actually want, that is really the sore truth of it all. The choices I made, the decisions I made, virtually all of them were wrong and the price to pay is high.

[NuevoYorko]

20 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not seriously believe your tactic above would work but it clearly has for you. 

It's not a "tactic."  Those are ways that people go about letting someone know that they're interested in them.  The ball is then in their court.  

Manipulating people is unlikely to get you anywhere.  A machiavellian personality type can be good at getting desired results this way, but since you can't read or understand people and are strongly against developing that skill, your best bet would be to simply lead with your intention and get on with whatever is next.

Besides, it's bottom-feeder type behavior to pretend to be a friend when you have ulterior motives.  

[NuevoYorko]

40 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 

No there is nothing I need to work on beyond what has already been stated in an earlier post because at the end of the day I can work, work and work and still have no value whatsoever.

Many of  us who have shortcomings try to work on them in order to become better people.  Not so we can "get what we want." 

You are probably the only perfect human being I've encountered and I've been around for over 1/2 of a century.  Unbelievable. 

I don't suppose I am allowed to say this here, but I will:  you come off as insufferable.   

 

[jspice]

22 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

 

Besides, it's bottom-feeder type behavior to pretend to be a friend when you have ulterior motives.  

Also, using this woman’s situation because he was hoping she was damaged enough goods so nobody else would want her. She said as much and he positioned himself as “the friend”.

Also, using wine to try and get somewhere with K. 

That’s not underhanded in the least ...

[normal person]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Sorry re paragraph one I was not raised to speak to women like that, the idea of asking someone "hey do you want to f*ck' is very off putting and likely to result in a slap. 

I don't think he was suggesting you lead with that, but the attitude is the same: you never made any purposeful sexual and/or romantic advance. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Sure, people on here told me to try kiss a date, I had a good date with someone and tried exactly that, the look of horror on her face wont be something I will forget in a hurry, needless to say no date 2 ever happened.

"I tried something once and it didn't work, so I never tried again."

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I got outmatched because he had friends who REALLY sold him

No amount of friends selling someone is going to change the tide if she didn't like him otherwise. He's with her because she likes and respects him, not because his friends assured her he was likable and respectable.

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

whereas I had friends who I suspect sold me as some sort of pity project.

I'll concede to you that this likely didn't help your case at all. Anything implying pity, weakness, or ineptitude will not do you any favors. You could've used this as an opportunity to prove them wrong. But, you need to talk to your friends and suggest they not do this in the future. They should talk about you with respect and dignity. Are my friends perfect? No. But if they come up in conversation, I and they have nothing to gain by suggesting otherwise. So I omit any mistake they've made or trouble they've had unless it's relevant, or unless I knew they'd be ok with me mentioning it. 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Irrespective he has considerably more to offer than me so its no surprise I lost.

I guarantee he also doesn't have your self-fulfilling defeatist attitude. After all these years, I still don't think you understand this: if you say, believe, and act with this sensibility, no woman will ever want you. It's entirely unattractive even if people don't agree with you. Do I think you have things to offer? Yes. Is your attitude wholly unappealing to the point where it'd make me overlook those things if I were a woman? Yes 100 times. No one has time or obligation to lift you out of your own mud and convince you you're worth their time when there are countless other people who have the affirmation already internalized. Redirect your attitudes in aspirational ways, towards things you want and how you might achieve them rather than constantly sulk and lament at how useless you think you are.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

Many of  us who have shortcomings try to work on them in order to become better people.  Not so we can "get what we want." 

You are probably the only perfect human being I've encountered and I've been around for over 1/2 of a century.  Unbelievable. 

I don't suppose I am allowed to say this here, but I will:  you come off as insufferable.   

 

You can say whatever you want, its water off a ducks back  as far as I am concerned, have been called far worse. 

Sure, I work on what is workable and nothing dating related is workable because there is nothing to work with.

[ZA Dater]

36 minutes ago, normal person said:

I guarantee he also doesn't have your self-fulfilling defeatist attitude. After all these years, I still don't think you understand this: if you say, believe, and act with this sensibility, no woman will ever want you. It's entirely unattractive even if people don't agree with you. Do I think you have things to offer? Yes. Is your attitude wholly unappealing to the point where it'd make me overlook those things if I were a woman? Yes 100 times. No one has time or obligation to lift you out of your own mud and convince you you're worth their time when there are countless other people who have the affirmation already internalized. Redirect your attitudes in aspirational ways, towards things you want and how you might achieve them rather than constantly sulk and lament at how useless you think you are.

I agree hence dating, sex and love is now in the "nice to have but unlikely to get category" of life for me. Its not defeatist its the reality of 20 years of trying with nothing to show for it, not one relationship, not one mutual attraction, not one decent kiss, not one birthday gift, not one holiday, not one movies absolutely nothing of anything to show for it. That is not defeatist its the reality. Honestly when someone I find attractive sees some value in me I might be interested but I am tired of selling what has no value. Its pointless, I wasted years feeling terrible because I never knew what was wrong, well now I know. 

I had the best opportunity ever, brought everything good about myself, did the best I could and still got nowhere so to me there is some finality about that, I tried my absolute best and got nowhere in a situation which is more unicorn than repeatable so why bother going forward, for what, to get laughed at, ridiculed and treated like some project, no thanks. 

The only thing which would convince me I have some value is if I had some success but even I cant argue the fact its not normal for someone at the age of 37 to have had no success at all, that is inexplicable and cannot just be wished away.

 

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

It's not a "tactic."  Those are ways that people go about letting someone know that they're interested in them.  The ball is then in their court.  

Manipulating people is unlikely to get you anywhere.  A machiavellian personality type can be good at getting desired results this way, but since you can't read or understand people and are strongly against developing that skill, your best bet would be to simply lead with your intention and get on with whatever is next.

Besides, it's bottom-feeder type behavior to pretend to be a friend when you have ulterior motives.  

I have been trying to develop the skill with zero success at all because every single person is different and sure if I had something someone might want I might put in more effort but why bother when nobody I find attractive has any interest in me, when they can have guys who have none of my issues at all and offer more.

The only thing I can be to many is simply a friend of convenience. 

[normal person]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I had the best opportunity ever, brought everything good about myself, did the best I could and still got nowhere so to me there is some finality about that, I tried my absolute best and got nowhere in a situation which is more unicorn than repeatable so why bother going forward, for what, to get laughed at, ridiculed and treated like some project, no thanks. 

You didn't try, though. You just acted nice and friendly. You said earlier that you were worried about pursuing a grieving widow. This was not an honest, forthright attempt to date someone, so you shouldn't use it as a reason for your lack of success here. If you didn't succeed, yeah, it might've been due to her status as a recent widow. But more importantly, you had no chance of success because you did not make any reasonable attempt to date or incite romance. You'd have my support and congratulations if you said something direct like "I'm having a great time with you, do you want to..." and she (or anyone else you asked) just gave you a polite rejection. But you didn't even do that. You didn't succeed namely because you thought your way to a relationship was through a backdoor of friendship. The "vulnerability" you're so keen to share shouldn't have been a history of your struggles with women, it should've been in putting your pride on the line and asking her out like a grown man.  

[basil67]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I simply do not agree. Why is it OTHERS can date attractive people .....

Have you never looked around in the street at all the average looking people with their average looking partners?   And of the people you get to know, you find they love their average partners.   Why do you feel entitled to get something which most others don't have?

Edited April 13, 2021 by basil67

[Dis]

I didn't read the whole thread but I did see that you only found 7 women out of hundreds attractive on OLD? And they didn't feel the same about you?

 

Are you just shooting out of your league? 

 

Must be an awful mindset to have...to only be attracted to women you can't be with 

 

Maybe work on your personality a bit. My most recent ex is an average looking man but pretty overweight. Initially I didn't find him attractive but once I got to know him I saw what a kind, caring, funny man he was and I grew to love him deeply. He always joked that he, "hit a home run way out of his league" when we first started dating. But I felt I was the lucky one because of how wonderful he was. Personality is important and works wonders on women. 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

Why do you feel entitled to get something which most others don't have?

To simply date someone I find attractive? 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, normal person said:

You didn't try, though. You just acted nice and friendly. You said earlier that you were worried about pursuing a grieving widow. This was not an honest, forthright attempt to date someone, so you shouldn't use it as a reason for your lack of success here. If you didn't succeed, yeah, it might've been due to her status as a recent widow. But more importantly, you had no chance of success because you did not make any reasonable attempt to date or incite romance. You'd have my support and congratulations if you said something direct like "I'm having a great time with you, do you want to..." and she (or anyone else you asked) just gave you a polite rejection. But you didn't even do that. You didn't succeed namely because you thought your way to a relationship was through a backdoor of friendship. The "vulnerability" you're so keen to share shouldn't have been a history of your struggles with women, it should've been in putting your pride on the line and asking her out like a grown man.  

When I am told "whatever you do, don't try to date her, she isn't ready for that, be her friend" then I pretty much do as I am told, only much later on did I have a very subtle " I enjoy your company let's hang out more" vibe by which time he with more had already won the battle.

There are no blatant attempts from me, I have been kicked in the face often enough between flat out rejection and never finding anyone to actually date.

At least this time getting rejected made me realise that I can't ever get this to work even when a lot of things do align so it's been helpful and valuable to me. 

Again I see no issue with the truth, the fact I am inexperienced is obvious to any lady and one famously told me " you need to get experience with people as inexperienced as you".

Not really that upset because at least I know definitively I have nothing of value to offer someone and certainly not anyone I find attractive.

[Wiseman2]

Doesn't seem viable. Probably best to just let go and move forward.

[basil67]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

To simply date someone I find attractive? 

Yeah.  When most of us are average (including you) and date and find love with other average people, why do you feel entitled to more?  

[ZA Dater]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yeah.  When most of us are average (including you) and date and find love with other average people, why do you feel entitled to more?  

I am not but I am simply not interested in people I don't find attractive either.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not but I am simply not interested in people I don't find attractive either.

You said earlier "Why is it OTHERS can date attractive people but when I state what I do not find attractive I get roundly criticized for it?"

You get criticised because most of us are degrees of average, and date other average people.   Yet you are complaining about stuff that the rest of us accept and deal with.   I've said this before:  I'm not special.  You're not special.  Those people over there aren't special.  Nobody has a right to date a person we find beautiful.  Not even you.

And back to being on topic about entitlement: Do you understand that the act of complaining about not being able to access those you find attractive reeks of entitlement?    Why do you think you should be able to access those you find beautiful in a world of average people?

Edited April 14, 2021 by basil67

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You said earlier "Why is it OTHERS can date attractive people but when I state what I do not find attractive I get roundly criticized for it?"

You get criticised because most of us are degrees of average, and date other average people.   Yet you are complaining about stuff that the rest of us accept and deal with.   I've said this before:  I'm not special.  You're not special.  Those people over there aren't special.  Nobody has a right to date a person we find beautiful.  Not even you.

And back to being on topic about entitlement: Do you understand that the act of complaining about not being able to access those you find attractive reeks of entitlement?    Why do you think you should be able to access those you find beautiful in a world of average people?

I will agree to disagree. Frankly if I cannot date people I find attractive then I'd rather simply not date at all, that is the bottom line really. If others are happy to date people they do not find attractive, that is great but its something which holds no interest for me at all. 

You have dated attractive people to you right or are you actually saying you found them unattractive but dated them anyway?

I do not believe in average, so when you go on about average its pretty meaningless because there is no yardstick by which average is measured. People are people the difference being we all have different attributes, some good and some not so good, I have none good when it comes to dating but that does not mean I am a useless person. 

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Frankly if I cannot date people I find attractive then I'd rather simply not date at all, that is the bottom line really.

The issue is you don’t find average looking women attractive, even though you’re average looking. Most everyone is attracted to their average looking partner. Fun fact: most people describe their partner as above average in looks, even though that’s statistically impossible. That’s because we fall in love and wear some rose colored glasses.

Your main requirement looks wise seems to be a woman that’s not overweight. Surely there are a number of women that are average looking and not overweight where you live right? You’re average looking and not overweight as well. That’s your pool.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

The issue is you don’t find average looking women attractive, even though you’re average looking. Most everyone is attracted to their average looking partner. Fun fact: most people describe their partner as above average in looks, even though that’s statistically impossible. That’s because we fall in love and wear some rose colored glasses.

Your main requirement looks wise seems to be a woman that’s not overweight. Surely there are a number of women that are average looking and not overweight where you live right? You’re average looking and not overweight as well. That’s your pool.

Every single match I get on Tinder and Bumble is unsuitable and has been for the last how many years. I would be quite happy with slim and athletic which based on what you say is what I am so really is that too much to ask. While I am at it a pretty face would be nice too.

Joking to some extent.

[Weezy1973]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Every single match I get on Tinder and Bumble is unsuitable and has been for the last how many years.

Not every single one. You’ve had 7 you were attracted to. And most of those weren’t actually matches, they were women that swiped right on you. And stop using Tinder and Bumble. Those are low investment swiping apps. Again you’re doing the same things over and over hoping for a different result. If you want a different result, you’re going to have to change what you’re doing.

 

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I would be quite happy with slim and athletic

Why athletic? Are you an athlete? 

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not every single one. You’ve had 7 you were attracted to. And most of those weren’t actually matches, they were women that swiped right on you. And stop using Tinder and Bumble. Those are low investment swiping apps. Again you’re doing the same things over and over hoping for a different result. If you want a different result, you’re going to have to change what you’re doing.

 

Why athletic? Are you an athlete? 

Yes I am. I cycle quite a bit.

Those are the only two really viable sites/apps in SA. Okcupid is a complete disaster with very little choice.

Honestly 7 in 20 odd years is hardly fantastic to the point where Id rather not bother.

[elaine567]

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

. Frankly if I cannot date people I find attractive then I'd rather simply not date at all, that is the bottom line really.

Then "frankly" you will not be dating anyone, which is exactly how it has panned out for the past 20 years...

29 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

. Surely there are a number of women that are average looking and not overweight where you live right? You’re average looking and not overweight as well. That’s your pool.

Trouble is, those slim, average looking women are not his pool, as they are not finding him attractive according what he tells us.
He only "matches" with overweight women.
The slim ones don't see him as on their level, I can only assume.

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Trouble is, those slim, average looking women are not his pool, as they are not finding him attractive according what he tells us.
He only "matches" with overweight women.
The slim ones don't see him as on their level, I can only assume.

Like I’ve said before, this is just aspirational dating. People trying to shoot out of their league. When I was OLD the only first messages from women I got were also overweight. And women often lament that they get tons of messages, just not from anyone they’re interested in or find attractive. That’s OLD for you. And his numbers, aren’t too out of whack for sites like Tinder or Bumble. If you’re an average guy, getting an actual match (where you both swipe right) 1 for every 25 or 30 you swipe right on, is probably about right. He said he had 7 women he matched with that he found attractive out of about 200 swipes. I’d say I did even worse on those sites. Like one match out of every 100 or more swipe.