Can this work

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Then "frankly" you will not be dating anyone, which is exactly how it has panned out for the past 20 years...

Trouble is, those slim, average looking women are not his pool, as they are not finding him attractive according what he tells us.
He only "matches" with overweight women.
The slim ones don't see him as on their level, I can only assume.

Which is fine I guess. I'd rather try/half heartedly try and get what I want than settle for what I absolutely do not want. Though having said that I do believe I have had the best experience I am likely to have so if I never date anyone, well its a bitter pill to swallow in so much as I miss out on many things but if I cannot get a better experience then what really is the point?  A lot of what you see here is exactly why I do not connect with people, I simply do not see things in a conventional way. Most guys will be going out to sleep with people and do whatever it takes to actually accomplish that, I tried that years ago and what I found is the same lack of dating ability is the same impediment there, and no alcohol is a further impediment.

For exactly that reason I defer to the friend zone route but that is also very flawed because I don't actually have any friends barring work ones and those friendships are not very social.

No the slim ones do not see me in their pool because superficially I have nothing to offer. Nobody agrees with me on this which is fine but I steadfastly maintain superficial is what really matters at first and depending on how much superficial you have it can be enough to get other issues overlooked.

People must chase what they like, that I am not that is well just unfortunate I guess.

[Negotaurus]

Alright, being less superficial is an absolute no-go for you it seems. So you want to get a girlfriend that's a top-notch unicorn. Yet you've said you refuse to put any work into yourself in order to get these "top-notch" women.

What is the goal here? You come here, bash society, because things don't happen the way you want them to. The comments about entitlement are spot on, sorry to say. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Negotaurus

[ZA Dater]

So basically

1: Superficial qualities are required to be noticed: I have none of these

2: Flirting required to make her feel special: I cant do this

3: Charm required to get her into bed: I have none of this either

4: Fun required to make her laugh and smile: surprisingly I can sometimes accomplish this 

The things I can do

1: Be very attentive 

2: Be generous 

3 Be thoughtful

4: Be very supportive

All of which are worthless when you are sitting on the other side of a room or sitting at a bar counter or walking around in a bookshop, do we at least agree on that?

 

[ZA Dater]

8 minutes ago, Negotaurus said:

Alright, being less superficial is an absolute no-go for you it seems. So you want to get a girlfriend that's a top-notch unicorn. Yet you've said you refuse to put any work into yourself in order to get these "top-notch" women.

What is the goal here? You come here, bash society, because things don't happen the way you want them to. The comments about entitlement are spot on, sorry to say. 

Do you date people attractive to you? 

Does work on yourself imply you agree that superficial is more important? 

[elaine567]

Here you were not actually dating anyone.

It was all in your head. She was dating that other guy from almost day one and she probably felt obliged to humour you as you were treating her and her brother to a prestigious event and  putting her up in your place.
The minute she didn't have to do that any more she was gone, just like the yoga teacher.
Superficial people are unfortunately superficial.

superficial - appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely.

 

[ZA Dater]

I keeping being accused of being superficial yet the entire concept of dating is just that. People have rehashed it countless times in various forms, nobody aspires to date someone they do not want to sleep with, which is what it really boils down to. Sure I'll go have dinner with whoever but that is unfair if she wants me to sleep with her because I am not remotely interested and I have had exactly this happen before, to say its awkward is an understatement.

Sorry but after years of going on date with many different people a personality to me cannot make up for a lack of physical attraction. All I am interested in are people who combine both, that is what I find attractive but so do millions of others.

Take another step, how do people attract those people, almost always superficially, they could not care a jot if you are thoughtful or kind but they do care if you take them on a fancy holiday and buy them expensive things. Again I have seen this countless times. 

Me, I thought I could buy Armani for $10 based on the fact to my mind I do have some good qualities but the fact of the matter is I cannot because those qualities carry no value whatsoever, this last experience taught me that and I am glad I realized this, albeit disappointed I did not realize it 10 years ago because I could have packed this BS in far sooner.

People want what they want, nobody will ever change that. Magazines wax on about sex and sexual prowess, irrelevant as far as I am concerned in the grand scheme of life, yet its the be all and end all of dating for many. 

Really I am at a great degree of peace now than I have been for probably the last 10 years. Am I happy about this ending, no, nobody would be but I do concede I cannot change the world and how it operates, I cannot change what people find attractive and ultimately I cannot tell people what value. I know what I value so does anything else really matter?

 

 

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Here you were not actually dating anyone.

It was all in your head. She was dating that other guy from almost day one and she probably felt obliged to humour you as you were treating her and her brother to a prestigious event and  putting her up in your place.
The minute she didn't have to do that any more she was gone, just like the yoga teacher.
Superficial people are unfortunately superficial.

superficial - appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely.

 

Guess what: I'd do that 100 times over rather than going on date after date with some person from OLD who I have zero interest in. FYI I knew her for 2 months before she even met the other guy. 

I got more value out of those experiences than I did out of 15 years of dating, that should tell you something. Had I been a better more appealing person with better superficial qualities I could have done a lot better.

 

[5x5]

19 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I do not seriously believe your tactic above would work but it clearly has for you.

It's not a tactic, it's simply stating one's desire for what one wants. If you want to go on a romantic date, you say so honestly and directly. If you want to kiss someone you say so or give it a go. Likewise if you want to have sex with someone, you tell them.

8 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

When I am told "whatever you do, don't try to date her, she isn't ready for that, be her friend" then I pretty much do as I am told, only much later on did I have a very subtle " I enjoy your company let's hang out more" vibe by which time he with more had already won the battle.

There are no blatant attempts from me, I have been kicked in the face often enough between flat out rejection and never finding anyone to actually date.

At least this time getting rejected made me realise that I can't ever get this to work even when a lot of things do align so it's been helpful and valuable to me.

If only you did what you are told here, you wouldn't be dateless.

" I enjoy your company let's hang out more" vibe !!!!  ........ What have you been told about people reading your mind?

Plus there was no battle, since you chose not to compete!

The fact that you keep carrying on about being rejected is a significant misnomer, since you didn't actually let her know you wanted a romantic/sexual relationship with her. Seriously you weren't rejected, since you didn't even have the courage to afford her an opportunity to reject you.

Oh and on otherwise being rejected romantically, it is not a kick in the face. No one owes you their time or sex, so do yourself a favour and understand that you aren't entitled to it.

47 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

FYI I knew her for 2 months before she even met the other guy.

Two months and you didn't express your desire for her???!!!

What on earth do you expect to happen, when you clearly can't be bothered trying at all?

????

Edited April 14, 2021 by 5x5

[jspice]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

“Fat single women can never win me over with that personality”.

Sorry but after years of going on date with many different people a personality to me cannot make up for a lack of physical attraction. All I am interested in are people who combine both, that is what I find attractive but so do millions of others.

“I’m unattractive but my personality counts for nothing”

Take another step, how do people attract those people, almost always superficially, they could not care a jot if you are thoughtful or kind but they do care if you take them on a fancy holiday and buy them expensive things. Again I have seen this countless times. 

 

Don’t even see the irony. 

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

It's not a tactic, it's simply stating one's desire for what one wants. If you want to go on a romantic date, you say so honestly and directly. If you want to kiss someone you say so or give it a go. Likewise if you want to have sex with someone, you tell them.

If only you did what you are told here, you wouldn't be dateless.

" I enjoy your company let's hang out more" vibe !!!!  ........ What have you been told about people reading your mind?

Plus there was no battle, since you chose not to compete!

The fact that you keep carrying on about being rejected is a significant misnomer, since you didn't actually let her know you wanted a romantic/sexual relationship with her. Seriously you weren't rejected, since you didn't even have the courage to afford her an opportunity to reject you.

Oh and on otherwise being rejected romantically, it is not a kick in the face. No one owes you their time or sex, so do yourself a favour and understand that you aren't entitled to it.

Two months and you didn't express your desire for her???!!!

What on earth do you expect to happen, when you clearly can't be bothered trying at all?

????

I was told NOT to try and JUST be her FRIEND. Which is what I did.

I am glad such a direct approach works for, I'd never try that because a slap across the face would almost certainly follow. Actions speak louder than words in no way did I hide the fact I enjoyed her company, the fact I found any excuse to spend time with her indicated that. I did try to compete right until I realized I was competing with superficial qualities I do not have and none of the qualities I have will ever overcome that. I know when I have lost. Rather walk away before I get that kick in the face.

Sure nobody is entitled to it, heck apparently you just walk up to someone and ask for it.

The very first time we met we spent 5 hours chatting about life relationships, what she was going through what I had been through, I made it quite obvious in the plainest and clearest language I am useless at dating. Did this buy me the unthreatening friend zone, sure it probably did, would have spent so much time with me if I had gone the other way, very unlikely. Remember all I am ever told by those closes to me is "be friends with them". 

I can face up being unattractive and undesirable, I don't hide from that now because I know why I am those things.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

So basically

1: Superficial qualities are required to be noticed: I have none of these

2: Flirting required to make her feel special: I cant do this

3: Charm required to get her into bed: I have none of this either

4: Fun required to make her laugh and smile: surprisingly I can sometimes accomplish this 

The things I can do

1: Be very attentive 

2: Be generous 

3 Be thoughtful

4: Be very supportive

 

So you’re saying you don’t have any superficially attractive qualities, but you do have deeper more meaningful qualities. So would you be interested in dating a woman without superficially attractive qualities, but had an abundance of deeper, more meaningful qualities? 
 

Also it’s all relative. If you’re a “5” women from 1-4 will all think you’re attractive while some that are 6-10 will not. And other 5s will feel fairly neutral.

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, jspice said:

Don’t even see the irony. 

Some issues, opposite ends of the problem. I have been out with very overweight people, one invited me back to her place, I declined, the other stalked me for a week I changed numbers. Like it or not everyone has issues, some they can correct, others they cant, I feel for people who want to look in shape and try everything but cannot. 

I suspect when it comes to dating most people only look at what is in front of them anyway.

But I am wrong, its all about tales of "he seduced with his is personality" "I went on 5 dates and magically on the 6th he was very attractive to me", good luck if you buy into those things because I do not and neither do people who have choices. This mistake, one of many I have made is to simply not have the things people actually find valuable so I have zero choice, not that many men who lack superficial qualities have much choice anyway.

You are not going to give the guy in tatty clothes a second glance irrespective of his personality. 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

So you’re saying you don’t have any superficially attractive qualities, but you do have deeper more meaningful qualities. So would you be interested in dating a woman without superficially attractive qualities, but had an abundance of deeper, more meaningful qualities? 
 

Also it’s all relative. If you’re a “5” women from 1-4 will all think you’re attractive while some that are 6-10 will not. And other 5s will feel fairly neutral.

No.

Does not matter what qualities she has they cannot trump a lack of physical attraction. For me that is total friend zone. When it comes to this I adopt exactly the same set of criteria which are applied to me. I am not prepared to compromise at ALL here, not even slightly. Its called being bitter and its a by product of getting nowhere.

All I am saying is my qualities have no value whatsoever. Its pointless pretending they do when the market has indicated they do not. 

At least now I know where I stand on the so called dating desirability matrix.  Likewise being able to have a conversation about lots of topic, totally and utterly pointless, this very lady told me "well he is not very intellectually stimulating and is hard to talk to" well there you can a holiday house and endless superficial things apparently make up for this. Its this sort of nonsense where any interest I have in continuing on this hamster wheel rapidly vanishes.

All I needed really was closure and I have a lot of that now, the self hate I had is mostly gone, its just the reality of how things are and I am sorry I could not actually accomplish anything because I know some here might have been hoping I would but with yet another birthday approaching there just seems no point at all chasing but far more point in finding as much closure as I can.

[Trail Blazer]

On 4/11/2021 at 11:48 PM, ZA Dater said:

Ok I am glad we have ascertained that slim, self supporting , kind, intelligent, warn personality are all unattainable attributes.

Makes me wonder what everyone else looks for.

That's not what @BaileyB meant when she said unattainable.

But seriously, man, every dude does want a slim, kind, intelligent woman with a warm personality.  So, unless you change your game, then, to you, a woman like that is virtually unattainable.

What are you prepared to do in order tip the ledger in your favor?

[Trail Blazer]

On 4/12/2021 at 12:00 AM, ZA Dater said:

I'll never get that right but yeah you might be right but I had hoped knowing the history she would sort of realise.

Thinking back there was so much I didn't really pick up properly but I can't cry over spilt milk. I can go and not touch milk again.

I am never going to initiate those things simply because I don't know how. And at 37 not knowing how is totally frowned upon. 

She just picked the guy who has more and who is more attractive, can't really fault her for that, even if I think he is too old. But what do I know really, I look at a mess of a lonely empty life and maybe it's me with my moral line who is wrong, maybe I'd have been better off choosing the player life. Who knows, certainly can't change that now.

I do know my ultimate want of waking next to someone I enjoy spending my days with will never happen so all I want to do now is find some sort of closure and peace. 

Honestly I don't meed or want sympathy because nobody around me actually provides any, the loneliness and ultimate disappointment I feel live in my my and on this forum. The absolute best I get "happens to me all the time" from a guy who has dates endless ladies he really likes.

You know what, you would have been wasting your time with this single mom Instagram model, so in a way you've done yourself a favor by not having the testicular fortitude to pursue her.

Dude, it's as clear as day that she was never after you or anyone like you.  In fact, she clearly wasn't after any normal guy no matter what he looked liked like or personality trait he possessed.

This chick has chosen to be with an old dude with money.  She's a gold digger.  She was using you for this arrangement which benefited her.  She strung you along abd made you feel special because it suited the needs of her and her baby.

Now, it suits the needs of her and her baby to be with a rich old man.  Who cares about this chick?  She didn't even deceive you.  It was all obvious from the beginning if you'd thought about it.  She'd probably be extremely surprised if she even knew just how much you've been mulling over this non-existent relationship. 

Had you made it clear you wanted something more - yeah, you would have been rejected, but that would have been a good thing.  It would have at least put paid to this delusion that she was anything other than a business arrangement.  You didn't even get played, bro!  It was so obvious...

You're not getting any sympathy from me.  You weren't even in the game.  It's not your fault, no normal dude would be.  You aren't old and rich (despite being seemingly moderately well off financially) and that's what she ultimately sought.

I'd tell you to roll with the punches, but dude, you didn't even get hit!  You weren't in the ring.  You didn't qualify to compete.  And you know what, there's no shame in that.  Because, every spectator watching ringside has their own speciality in life, they just need to identify what it is and be in the right game to win.

Lucky for you, most women want a normal life and look to date normal dudes.  Just look to date normal girls, who want normal things and who seek normal guys.  Work on resolving some issues within yourself and know that if you can muster up a modicum of emotional intelligence, you might actually be in the game.

[Trail Blazer]

On 4/12/2021 at 1:49 AM, Weezy1973 said:

This is going to be a problem. If you just change “wow” with compatible, you’d have far more luck. Your lack of experience has you stuck on attraction and wow. When you have a few relationships you realize how important compatibility is and how “wow” is pretty meaningless. Unfortunately I don’t know how you learn this lesson in your own.

When compatibility to the OP is simply ticking all of his criteria, he's never going to learn that lesson because he's never even going to experience anything.  He'll just keep dreaming. 🤷‍♂️

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Does not matter what qualities she has they cannot trump a lack of physical attraction. For me that is total friend zone.

How many times are we going to go around and around again...

If you are intent on eliminating 95%+ of the female population because you don’t find them attractive, you really can’t complain that you don’t have a relationship. You certainly can’t complain about the fact that nobody ever gives you a chance or that women won’t look past your physical appearance or lack of experience to consider the other good qualities you posses... 

The same rigidity in thinking that is preventing you from finding a relationship partner is going to make being a good relationship partner very difficult for you. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

When compatibility to the OP is simply ticking all of his criteria, he's never going to learn that lesson because he's never even going to experience anything.  He'll just keep dreaming. 🤷‍♂️

I have had the best experience I am likely to ever get so why even bother with anything else. That's the thing nobody can relate to, I'd rather have one great to me experience than go back to OLD and have 50 very very average ones. 

It's clear I don't have the superficially important things which people I find attractive overall really like so why bother with people I don't find interest and attractive. What do I have on OLD...a single unemployed mother with three kids between 2 and 7. I suppose I should jump out of my chair in excitement!

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

What do I have on OLD...a single unemployed mother with three kids between 2 and 7. I suppose I should jump out of my chair in excitement!

Well, if that’s your only option then that’s not good. 

But it’s not your only other option!! You continue to present that you have two options - young, beautiful, and “worldly” or overweight, unemployed, single mother - and that is simply not true. 

8 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I have had the best experience I am likely to ever get so why even bother with anything else. That's the thing nobody can relate to, I'd rather have one great to me experience than go back to OLD and have 50 very very average ones. 

Well then, call it a day and close up this discussion. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Well, if that’s your only option then that’s not good. 

But it’s not your only other option!! You continue to present that you have two options - young, beautiful, and “worldly” or overweight, unemployed, single mother - and that is simply not true. 

Well then, call it a day and close up this discussion. 

Guess what I am the one actually looking and those ARE the only options I have.

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Guess what: I'd do that 100 times over

Where is your self respect?
You would rather spend time with someone who happened to look good,  but who had no intentions of dating you, who just used you, who may not even like you, than spend time with honest women who are actually looking to date you?
 

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Guess what I am the one actually looking and those ARE the only options I have.

Perhaps, you have either your fantasy or the other extreme - the “undatables.”
Perhaps the reason why you are not getting other matches is because women in the middle are either happily dating or pursuing other men in the middle... 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Where is your self respect?
You would rather spend time with someone who happened to look good,  but who had no intentions of dating you, who just used you, who may not even like you, than spend time with honest women who are actually looking to date you?

But when you assess people and relationships superficially and define “value” a certain way (ie having a beautiful woman on your arm, basking in her presence), it would make sense that one would believe an opportunity to “be” with a beautiful woman for a short time is of more worth than other women who don’t have that same “quality.” Even if, what you are dismissing is the potential to have a more honest, sincere, and loving relationship.

It’s all in one’s definition of success.

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

33 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Where is your self respect?
You would rather spend time with someone who happened to look good,  but who had no intentions of dating you, who just used you, who may not even like you, than spend time with honest women who are actually looking to date you?
 

Every single aspect of those experiences was VASTLY better than any date I have been on, night and day better. I enjoyed all of it which is is more than I can say for any date I have been on. Simple things going to breakfast, going for a walk, going shopping, ordering in dinner, attempting to make dinner were all very nice when I was around someone who actually asked me about me, engaged with me and the conversation actually flowed. The fact we could sit and chat for hours easily, engage on different topics , had common beliefs all of this contributed to a good experience.

As I have said before it was nice to feel something, to feel normal to just be instead of just chasing. Every single date is a like a horse and pony show of quite frankly nonsense, forced conversation, no mutual interest and if there is its doomed anyway from the outset so it was nice to have none of that.

I do not expect any of you to understand this and yes I'd take this over 100 times over yet another OLD date.

[ZA Dater]

21 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

But when you assess people and relationships superficially and define “value” a certain way (ie having a beautiful woman on your arm, basking in her presence), it would make sense that one would believe an opportunity to “be” with a beautiful woman for a short time is of more worth than other women who don’t have that same “quality.” Even if, what you are dismissing is the potential to have a more honest, sincere, and loving relationship.

It’s all in one’s definition of success.

You are quite correct re the bold. I am not more superficial than anyone else, would you date the guy in tatty clothes who has an amazing personality over the well dressed guy? Probably not, I just want people would be honest and admit the superficial stuff is vitally important, at least when it comes to initial attraction.

The value was she treated me well and actually took an interest. The fact we still chat most day is FAR more than I got out of ANY OLD date, even the ones I liked threw me away like trash to move onto the next prospect. Sorry but activities do not come much more superficial than OLD and every single thing associated with it.