Can this work

[BaileyB]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

would you date the guy in tatty clothes who has an amazing personality over the well dressed guy?

If the well dressed guy was an arrogant and self-absorbed man - you bet I would! 
It’s easier to change clothing than character. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

If the well dressed guy was an arrogant and self-absorbed man - you bet I would! 
It’s easier to change clothing than character. 

Alright so you would approach the poorly dressed guy over the smartly dressed one if you saw them both in a bar and knew nothing about their character at all.

[Weezy1973]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You are quite correct re the bold. I am not more superficial than anyone else, would you date the guy in tatty clothes who has an amazing personality over the well dressed guy? Probably not, I just want people would be honest and admit the superficial stuff is vitally important, at least when it comes to initial attraction.

This is where your lack of experience really hurts you. It’s not that lack of experience in itself is unattractive, it’s that you haven’t learned the lessons that come with experience.

Most people with a desire to be in a healthy relationship would choose the personality over the fancy clothes. You can’t understand this because you’ve never been in a relationship. And your role models aren’t interested in healthy relationships. 

[BaileyB]

26 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Alright so you would approach the poorly dressed guy over the smartly dressed one if you saw them both in a bar and knew nothing about their character at all.

I don’t chose relationship partners based on physical appearance alone. It is one thing that I consider, and it is not the most important thing. I can say this with certainty because if I used physical appearance as my only criteria, I would not be with my partner. I could find much better looking men to date. I chose him because he is attractive to me, because of his appearance but more so because he is kind, funny, smart, hardworking, a good father, and we have fun together! 
I also don’t approach strange men in bars. 
If I was at a social gathering and I had the opportunity to speak with both men, I would absolutely chose the man who was interesting to talk with, kind, had a sense of humour... assuming that he didn’t smell and was wearing some form of clothing.

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[jspice]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t chose relationship partners based on physical appearance. I also don’t approach strange men in bars. 
If I was at a social gathering and I had the opportunity to speak with both men, I would absolutely chose the man who was interesting to talk with, kind, had a sense of humour... assuming that he didn’t smell and was wearing some form of clothing.

Look at you settling! According to this thread you’re supposed to choose the well-dressed a**h*** @BaileyB. 
Don’t let the side down! 😜

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, jspice said:

Look at you settling! According to this thread you’re supposed to choose the well-dressed a**h*** @BaileyB. 
Don’t let the side down! 😜

And yet, I realize that for the purpose of this conversation, I am generalizing... I don’t want to sell well dressed men short. I’m sure there are many very kind and interesting men who are also well dressed. As I have been trying to suggest, the world is not black and white. 

I will say, when I was 16 I would have said yes - I am settling. I am settling for a man who has average looks, and makes average money, and has an average life.

But, I was single for the better part of my 20’s and early 30’s... I dated a lot of men, and with time and experiences I began to see the value of an average man, with average good looks, making an average salary, living an average life. And when I found him - I realized just how blessed I was to have found him. I am grateful every single day to have this very average man come into my life because he has in many ways, made my life so much better...

That is what ZADater has yet to learn. He’s still very much stuck in the same immature view of people and relationships - he hasn’t learned from his experience and the role models he choses for himself reinforce this kind of immature and unhealthy thinking about people and relationships.

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

29 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is where your lack of experience really hurts you. It’s not that lack of experience in itself is unattractive, it’s that you haven’t learned the lessons that come with experience.

Most people with a desire to be in a healthy relationship would choose the personality over the fancy clothes. You can’t understand this because you’ve never been in a relationship. And your role models aren’t interested in healthy relationships. 

Well strange then that I have NEVER seen this happen, I am sure it does though just does not happen to me or anyone I know. My point is if you did not know the personality you will go for the smartly dressed guy. Again superficial does matter.

[ZA Dater]

20 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t chose relationship partners based on physical appearance alone. It is one thing that I consider, and it is not the most important thing. I can say this with certainty because if I used physical appearance as my only criteria, I would not be with my partner. I could find much better looking men to date. I chose him because he is attractive to me, because of his appearance but more so because he is kind, funny, smart, hardworking, a good father, and we have fun together! 
I also don’t approach strange men in bars. 
If I was at a social gathering and I had the opportunity to speak with both men, I would absolutely chose the man who was interesting to talk with, kind, had a sense of humour... assuming that he didn’t smell and was wearing some form of clothing.

Great, so at least we agree I should date people attractive to me. Oh and his appearance was important, fancy that. Notice the order his attributes are listed, this proves my point, you cannot say appearance is irrelevant. 

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

And yet, I realize that for the purpose of this conversation, I am generalizing... I’m sure there are many very kind and interesting men who are also well dressed. As I have been trying to suggest, the world is not black and white. 

I will say, when I was 16 I would have said yes - I am settling. I am settling for a man who has average looks, and makes average money, and has an average life.

But, I was single for the better part of my 20’s and early 30’s... I dated a lot of men, and with time and experiences I began to see the value of an average man, with average good looks, making an average salary, living an average life. And when I found him - I realized just how blessed I was to have found him. I am grateful every single day to have this very average man come into my life because he has in many ways, made my life so much better...

That is what ZADater has yet to learn. He’s still very much stuck in the same immature view of people and relationships - he hasn’t learned from his experience and the role models he choses for himself reinforce this kind of immature and unhealthy thinking about people and relationships.

I do not believe in average at all so anything to with the average might as well be Greek, your average and my average will never be the same so its a largely irrelevant measurement. 

Yes and my life was made hugely better by spending time with someone who was warm, kind, friendly, happy, engaging......who I found attractive overall. See my point, these are the same side of the same coin. 

Really do not see how our outlook differs at all to be honest. Both of us want to spend time with people we find attractive and who make us feel something. 

[BaileyB]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Great, so at least we agree I should date people attractive to me. Oh and his appearance was important, fancy that. Notice the order his attributes are listed, this proves my point, you cannot say appearance is irrelevant. 

No, this proves that you totally missed my point. 

Again, nobody has said you should date a woman that you don’t find attractive. Your problem being, you discount almost every woman because you don’t find them attractive. 

Furthermore, if you reread my words - “I chose him because he is attractive to me, because of his appearance but more so because he is kind, funny, smart, hardworking, a good father, and we have fun together!” I was acknowledging the common ground - for your benefit because that is the considerate thing to do when conversing with another who has a differing opinion - that physical appearance is one of the things to consider when choosing a relationship partner, but more importantly... there are so many other things most people consider to be more important. As usual, you heard what you wanted to hear and discounted the actual point I was trying to make. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Yes and my life was made hugely better by spending time with someone who was warm, kind, friendly, happy, engaging......who I found attractive overall. See my point, these are the same side of the same coin. 

The difference being, my partner was available for a relationship and the person you chose was not. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

16 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

No, this proves that you totally missed my point. 

Again, nobody has said you should date a woman that you don’t find attractive. Your problem being, you discount almost every woman because you don’t find them attractive. 

Furthermore, if you reread my words - “I chose him because he is attractive to me, because of his appearance but more so because he is kind, funny, smart, hardworking, a good father, and we have fun together!” I was acknowledging the common ground - for your benefit because that is the considerate thing to do when conversing with another who has a differing opinion - that physical appearance is one of the things to consider when choosing a relationship partner, but more importantly... there are so many other things most people consider to be more important. As usual, you heard what you wanted to hear and discounted the actual point I was trying to make. 

No I simply read them in order. Appearance listed first followed by the other attributes, lets be honest without any physical attraction would the other qualities have interested you at all?

SO, I don't find many people attractive, that is just the reality.

[ZA Dater]

13 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

The difference being, my partner was available for a relationship and the person you chose was not. 

She was, just I failed the superficial test. Again if your partner had not been physically attractive would you have even bothered with him?

Guy tries to chat up lady in bar, do you really think he does not consider what she looks like before choosing to make conversation? You are making my point for me though, the point being you found him attractive, chatted to him and found he had many other good qualities which is exactly my point without the initial physical attraction anything else would be irrelevant, just like it is for me with OLD.

 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

...I am not more superficial than anyone else, would you date the guy in tatty clothes who has an amazing personality over the well dressed guy? Probably not, I just want people would be honest and admit the superficial stuff is vitally important, at least when it comes to initial attraction.   .....

I don't date guys, but having been that guy in the tatty clothes....yah plenty of women dated me as opposed to the other guys well and even fashionably dressed, especially at parties.  It's not your clothes but what you put in them (which by that I would include not smelling bad .  Now did I attract or interest all women at these events, heck no...but neither did the well dressed one.   Fairly certain that you are not going to see that reinforced in materialistic culture, that you don't need to be well dressed...those voices and that world gets no positive airplay.

You do seem to live in a superficial world though, which who am I to doubt, so you saying you are no more superficial than anyone else is pretty relative. 

[BaileyB]

Just now, ZA Dater said:

No I simply read them in order. Appearance listed first followed by the other attributes, lets be honest without any physical attraction would the other qualities have interested you at all?

Dude, I met my partner at a singles event. We chatted for several minutes and we discovered that we had so many things in common... I knew that I liked him right away. He was interesting, he made me laugh, we had tons of common interests, we lived in the same part of the city and we grew up in the same part of the country... The problem was - I wasn’t sure if I found him physically attractive.

I watched him for the rest of the night, as we mingled and spoke with other people... I knew that I liked him, I was just wondering - how much does attraction matter? At the end of the evening, we spoke again and he asked me out. 

He was there with a friend, who I actually found very attractive. He had kind eyes and a warm smile... I thought he was quite handsome and he was a world traveller - we connected over travel. I have since learned, this man is a really messed up guy. He is focused on the superficial, believes he is entitled to the best of everything, never satisfied with anything, has a very low opinion of most women, and as such, he has never been in a healthy long term relationship. 

My partner will sometimes tease me that I should have chosen his friend that night - to which I reply, we wouldn’t have dated more than two weeks. Once I got a better sense of who he really was, I would never have chosen that for myself. I am quite happily settled with my partner, who has grown more attractive to me as I have come to learn more about him. 

Yes, you assigned importance based in order of appearance because that is the obvious thing to do, if you are looking at things in a rigid and concrete kind of way. Exactly my point. 

[BaileyB]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again if your partner had not been physically attractive would you have even bothered with him?

See my answer above. My partner is a middle aged man, with a receding hairline, beautiful blue eyes, a double chin, a little too much weight around the middle, and a voice that melts my heart. Take that as you will. 

You make assumptions based on your own bias. This time, you are not correct. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Dude, I met my partner at a singles event. We chatted for several minutes and we discovered that we had so many things in common... I knew that I liked him right away. He was interesting, he made me laugh, we had tons of common interests, we lived in the same part of the city and we grew up in the same part of the country... The problem was - I wasn’t sure if I found him physically attractive.

I watched him for the rest of the night, as we mingled and spoke with other people... I knew that I liked him, I was just wondering - how much does attraction matter? At the end of the evening, we spoke again and he asked me out. 

He was there with a friend, who I actually found very attractive. He had kind eyes and a warm smile... I thought he was quite handsome and he was a world traveller - we connected over travel. I have since learned, this man is a really messed up guy. He is focused on the superficial, believes he is entitled to the best of everything, never satisfied with anything, has a very low opinion of most women, and as such, he has never been in a healthy long term relationship. 

My partner will sometimes tease me that I should have chosen his friend that night - to which I reply, we wouldn’t have dated more than two weeks. Once I got a better sense of who he really was, I would never have chosen that for myself. I am quite happily settled with my partner, who has grown more attractive to me as I have come to learn more about him. 

Yes, you assigned importance based in order of appearance because that is the obvious thing to do, if you are looking at things in a rigid and concrete kind of way. Exactly my point. 

I enjoy reading the good outcomes, sincerely I do.

Well I get judged on the superficial over and over so if I cant win I might as well just join them. Fact is I did get a lot of really positive good things this time around, more than I have had before and more than I am ever likely to get again, its this which keeps my heart neutral and my mind sound. Nothing I can say can ever take away how good what you list above is, I have had crumbs of it this time and it was all good. 

But the reality is its not something I am capable of having for better or for worse. I can be proud of the fact I was the best person I could be, I was completely me, I cared openly, gave totally and enjoyed every minute of it. I genuinely feel sad they are not here anymore but 1000 miles away. 

[jspice]

This would test the patience of Job. 
JFC

[ZA Dater]

11 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

See my answer above. My partner is a middle aged man, with a receding hairline, beautiful blue eyes, a double chin, a little too much weight around the middle, and a voice that melts my heart. Take that as you will. 

So long as you are happy that is all that matters. 

[Yosemite]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

she probably felt obliged to humour you as you were treating her and her brother to a prestigious event and  putting her up in your place.

I didn't know that her brother was involved, that makes it even more obvious that this was never anything romantic or even a friendship from her side.

She was being polite and because the OP so rarely experiences even basic politeness from extremely attractive women, he thinks that this was worth it.

OP, why don't you try being a sugar daddy? You're well off enough. You were able to decieve yourself into believing that this Instagram model was interested in you while you paid for everything and gave her a place to stay...so you should be able to convince yourself of the same thing as a sugar daddy. 

[ZA Dater]

17 minutes ago, Yosemite said:

I didn't know that her brother was involved, that makes it even more obvious that this was never anything romantic or even a friendship from her side.

She was being polite and because the OP so rarely experiences even basic politeness from extremely attractive women, he thinks that this was worth it.

OP, why don't you try being a sugar daddy? You're well off enough. You were able to decieve yourself into believing that this Instagram model was interested in you while you paid for everything and gave her a place to stay...so you should be able to convince yourself of the same thing as a sugar daddy. 

Been down this road, never, ever going down this road again. I got absolutely nothing I wanted out of this and it was a truly monumental waste of time and money, for reference I went on coffee dates with three ladies like this and much like a strip club its so fake its truly off putting.

With this lady I got some genuine companionship and at least she took some sort of interest in me, enough that we still speak most days and we share what is going on in each others lives. I guess nobody will ever understand the value I got out of this.

[ZA Dater]

17 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is where your lack of experience really hurts you. It’s not that lack of experience in itself is unattractive, it’s that you haven’t learned the lessons that come with experience.

Most people with a desire to be in a healthy relationship would choose the personality over the fancy clothes. You can’t understand this because you’ve never been in a relationship. And your role models aren’t interested in healthy relationships. 

Well that might be so but I have been out often enough to never see that happen in reality, people choose who has "more' of what whatever they find attractive and the reality is good looks, good clothes and success are attractive for MANY. Might be hard to believe at one point I did believe people valued personality but who the person is but after loss after loss I realized that was not the case, especially when I looked at the sort of guys who are winning at this. 

Ultimately the fairy of tale of "boy meets girl, girl loves boy for who he is not what he has" is just that to me, a fairy tale.

And I get accused of chasing unicorns, there is an irony there somewhere.

[trident_2020]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I went on coffee dates with three ladies like this and much like a strip club its so fake its truly off putting.

That's because they're got their guard up. Most people do when they don't know someone very well. It takes time and trust. Those 3 women have most likely been in relationships and been completely open with their guy, and are willing to do so again when they meet someone new. You just never get to see any of that because you never get that far.

You have no clue what women are really like when they fall in love and open up to you so you think that's all there is.

Sad

 

[ZA Dater]

3 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

That's because they're got their guard up. Most people do when they don't know someone very well. It takes time and trust. Those 3 women have most likely been in relationships and been completely open with their guy, and are willing to do so again when they meet someone new. You just never get to see any of that because you never get that far.

You have no clue what women are really like when they fall in love and open up to you so you think that's all there is.

Sad

 

I am really not interested in paid fake arrangements because there is zero value to be had from them. I am just going to be another customer and nothing else. The people I enjoyed spending time with the most were ones who actually interacted with me and displayed some warmth toward me, instead its just transactional like going to a shop and ordering a burger.

Well yes I do have no idea because I never got that far and am very unlikely to ever get that far which  I guess is sad.

When something is a transaction there is love at all attached to it.

 

[basil67]

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well that might be so but I have been out often enough to never see that happen in reality, people choose who has "more' of what whatever they find attractive and the reality is good looks, good clothes and success are attractive for MANY. Might be hard to believe at one point I did believe people valued personality but who the person is but after loss after loss I realized that was not the case, especially when I looked at the sort of guys who are winning at this. 

Ultimately the fairy of tale of "boy meets girl, girl loves boy for who he is not what he has" is just that to me, a fairy tale.

And I get accused of chasing unicorns, there is an irony there somewhere.

People do value personality.  But that successful personality not only has caring, honesty, supportiveness etc but also has emotional intelligence, humour, flirting, fun.    The guys who are winning have all these attributes.  And a perfectly ordinary looking guy will quite easily land a girlfriend if he has this stuff.