Karma for OW/OM

[mark clemson]

Well, sorta. There's no perfection in life, and "what you reap" might include any/all of e.g. what's listed in the link below. Take away #1 and there's still 24 more (and these are just the common issues, there's no doubt lots more uncommon ones you might hit).

In reality we hear from unhappily LT married people on this board all the time + it's prevalent enough to be a cliche. "Doing everything right" is never a guarantee of anything, unfortunately.

 

https://www.professional-counselling.com/common-relationship-problems.html

[Zona]

OP, it sounds like you have learned from your mistakes and have become a better person. No point beating yourself up over past indiscretions.

You are a valuable voice on the OM/OW forum because you have been there and learned some hard lessons which you can pass on to others who are struggling.

Sorry about the loss of your friend.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

No matter where you are geographically, mentally, or emotionally...

I wish you peace and joy today and every day. Be well, Everybody!

[anika99]

On 12/21/2020 at 3:03 PM, mark clemson said:

Well, sorta. There's no perfection in life, and "what you reap" might include any/all of e.g. what's listed in the link below. Take away #1 and there's still 24 more (and these are just the common issues, there's no doubt lots more uncommon ones you might hit).

In reality we hear from unhappily LT married people on this board all the time + it's prevalent enough to be a cliche. "Doing everything right" is never a guarantee of anything, unfortunately.

 

https://www.professional-counselling.com/common-relationship-problems.html

While this may be true, there is still the element of choice. I've often heard people lament "why should I keep working hard and being a model employee when I never get a raise and I'm never chosen for promotions?" or "why should I continue being a model husband/wife when my spouse doesn't even appreciate me and treats me like crap?"  Those situations do sound unfair and like the person isn't reaping what they have sowed. However life is never going to be 100% fair, it doesn't mean we just throw in the towel. That person is choosing to stay in that unrewarding job or stay in that unhappy marriage and they still have to take ownership of that. 

I wouldn't say to the person lamenting about how unhappy they are in their job "you're right, you should just slack off and not care anymore" or to the unhappily married person "you're right, you should just cheat to make yourself feel better" I would first advise the person to examine what they can do to make the situation better. Can they have a heart to heart with their employer? Will marriage counseling help? Are there any steps they can take to turn the situation around? If the answer to those questions is no, they have absolutely exhausted every avenue and nothing has gotten better than I would tell them to keep being honorable while preparing to make some hard choices and make some difficult changes. Keep being an exemplary employee but start putting out feelers  for a better job with better chances of advances.  Keep being a loyal spouse but start preparing for divorce. In both cases the person keeps their self respect, maintains their dignity and knows they took care of themselves in an honorable way. 

Then they can examine how they got stuck in these unhappy situations so that they can avoid making the same mistakes in the future. Maybe they didn't value themselves enough, maybe they married for the wrong reasons, maybe they are procrastinators who handle their problems with apathy rather than action. Or maybe they were simply not as great a spouse or employee as they thought they were. The point is that they still took part in where they ended up and they still have to take responsibility for that. 

[mark clemson]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:15 PM, anika99 said:

Then they can examine how they got stuck in these unhappy situations so that they can avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

I think the points you make are reasonable ones. This thread was about karma and my point is that sometimes you can do everything right and - the marriage you get is the marriage you get. It might suck or it might be "ok" but have issues for for various reasons (as that link I posted suggests). That's just reality, and reality often at least seems to contra-indicate karma, at least how it's popularly conceived. "Undeserved" results seem to happen with some frequency. A mix of consequences, human social systems with associated "mechanics", and a certain amount of randomness/arbitrariness seems to work better, at least to me.

I suppose the same thing applies to jobs as well - some are quite happy, but plenty of folks are stuck in dead-end jobs or have their careers skyrocket but then bust, etc. And plenty of people have 2nd and 3rd careers - something that also happens with marriages.

I wasn't getting into next steps. You seem to be implying in your 2nd paragraph that I was suggesting people should cheat, which I wasn't although certainly it's an option that many folks seem to take. At a high level, IMO there are four basic options that everyone has: do nothing, work on the marriage, cheat, or divorce.I do think it cheating tends to not fix real underlying issues in a marriage, although I think it CAN sugar-coat them a bit (unless/until a Dday).

I have a thread under General about which is more selfish - cheating or divorcing which you might find interesting, btw.

[Miss Spider]

I agree with “we reap what we sow“, generally. I wouldn’t lump that in with karma, at least the retribution type I think you are talking about. I think that is a toxic, superstitious concept of causation based on just-world fallacy.  It leads one to believe that if something bad happens to someone it is because of something that person did wrong. No evidence that this is necessarily the case.
 

Most people make mistakes in life. Most people have done things that they deem morally wrong. If your friend died of lung cancer after being a lifelong smoker, I would understand the “reap what you sow“ line of thinking. However, if she got involved with a married man and died of lung cancer, I would not see those two things as interrelated. Bad things happen to people who do good and good things happen to people that do bad and everything in between.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[DKT3]

18 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

I agree with “we reap what we sow“, generally. I wouldn’t lump that in with karma, at least the retribution type I think you are talking about. I think that is a toxic, superstitious concept of causation based on just-world fallacy.  It leads one to believe that if something bad happens to someone it is because of something that person did wrong. No evidence that this is necessarily the case.
 

Most people make mistakes in life. Most people have done things that they deem as morally wrong. If your friend died of lung cancer after being a lifelong smoker, I would understand the “reap what you sow“ line of thinking. However, if she got involved with a married man and died of lung cancer, I would not see those two things as interrelated. Bad things happen to people who do good and good things happen to people that do bad and everything in between.

That is not a direct cause and affect. If you sleep with an employee and get fired is. 

I dont believe that karma is real. There are tons of morally bankrupt people who live chamed lives. Cause and affect is real. If one does not have affairs one does not have to deal with the fallout of having an affair.  Its a very simple concept.  Also affairs are not mistakes,  its a series of choices made willingly all the while knowing what consequences are possible.  Denial of those consequences does not make it a mistake,  and those consequences are a direct result. 

The mistakes made are believing that ones action mean less then words and that your automatically involved with someone who sees things as you do while thier actions say otherwise. 

How many MW/OW see it as a mistake when it ultimately works out the way they wanted it too?

Edited December 27, 2020 by DKT3

[Miss Spider]

Yea, , that’s what I believe too. But the way I understand people who believe in karma, is that they believe that if a person does something “bad”, it directly causes something “bad” to happen to the person down the road. I can see several problems with that. 

 

Personally, I think it is using a coping mechanism to deal with life’s injustices. Instead of a God punishing the person, instead it’s (sometimes) another cosmic  arbitrator dealing justice they call karma . I’ve seen little evidence for that even though I can see how easy it would be to fall to that conclusion . 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Shortskirtslonglashes

[Miss Spider]

Indirectly*

[Zona]

Just about everyone does dumb things when they are young. That is to be expected.

When you are older, then you should be more mature, and make better choices based on your life experiences. I read a thread on reddit relationships where a 50 y.o. women started hanging out with her single friends and saw them having a great time hooking up with lots of guys and she wanted in on the game. She told her husband that she wanted to start sleeping with other men, and when he refused to open up the marriage, she divorced him. She destroyed their finances, they had to sell their dream home, and both ended up living in apartments. Their net worth was cut in half by the divorce and they spent thousands in legal fees, and both will struggle in retirement due to this. Her kids disowned her and went NC when they found out why she left their dad. Making dumb decisions at the age of 50 is a completely different thing.

My cynical side thinks that her single friends purposely egged her on and talked her into it, not because they were happy with their lives, but because they were jealous of her and her happy 30 year marriage. Misery likes company as they say.

I don't believe in Karma, but obviously there will be consequences to your actions as this story illustrates. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Zona

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Zona I'm thinking it was more of her grass is greener fantasy than the friends egging her on. She chose to put herself in the position of hanging with singles. Perhaps she was bored with the "humdrum" comfort and stability of married life and envied what she believed was a life full of excitement and fun.  (Entitlement issues) Reminds me of one of my favorite Aesop's fables...the Dog and his Reflection, was it? Dog dropped his steak in the river barking at his reflection which he believed was another dog with a bigger steak. 

In my experience, married folks prefer the company of other married folks while singles gravitate to other singles. In her case, she was already courting singlehood by hanging out with bachelorettes. 

In any case, what a tragic story!

Edited December 29, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel
Correction

[Zona]

11 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

@Zona

In any case, what a tragic story!

Yes very. I believe the story was not fake because it was posted by the broken-hearted ex husband, and just oozed of shock and sadness.

I think men should worry if their wife all of a sudden starts wanting to do GNO's with single friends all the time!

I feel like she thinks that the divorce is just temporary and she'll reel him back in once she's gotten tired of the new life filled with partying and casual hook-ups.

Here are links to original story:

Wife is going to have sex with other men.

Wife is going to have sex with other men: update

There was another update somewhere, either in the comments or in a separate thread which I could not find.

Lots of nastiness in the comments, dumping on OP and claiming he is the problem because he is so "closed minded".

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Zona

[HadMeOverABarrel]

@Zona That is a whack story. I think that guy never realized who he married. In my early 20's I had a childhood friend tell me she also felt she missed out due to marrying her husband who she met at age 14. She asked if I thought she should try out sex with another guy for the experience. Even then I told her it wasn't worth it...her husband practically worshipped the ground she walked on and definitely spoiled her rotten. I believe she accepted that and never stepped out. 

I think you are a reasonable married guy here on LS. I've been unmarried for about 25 years (gosh that makes me sound old!). I'm in my 40's...don't you think I could tell that story to a date as convincing evidence as to why I'm a great long term choice? 😜

Because...I've pretty much maxed out the single life so I wouldn't mind as much what I perceive is married life with the right guy. How do I package my long time singlehood into great spouse potential (because I do think I'd be an awesome wife for a guy who isn't threatened by or even appreciates my feminine strength and success).

Edited December 30, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Zona]

33 minutes ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

@Zona That is a whack story. I think that guy never realized who he married. In my early 20's I had a childhood friend tell me she also felt she missed out due to marrying her husband who she met at age 14. She asked if I thought she should try out sex with another guy for the experience. Even then I told her it wasn't worth it...her husband practically worshipped the ground she walked on and definitely spoiled her rotten. I believe she accepted that and never stepped out. 

I think you are a reasonable married guy here on LS. I've been unmarried for about 25 years (gosh that makes me sound old!). I'm in my 40's...don't you think I could tell that story to a date as convincing evidence as to why I'm a great long term choice? 😜

Because...I've pretty much maxed out the single life so I wouldn't mind as much what I perceive is married life with the right guy. How do I package my long time singlehood into great spouse potential (because I do think I'd be an awesome wife for a guy who isn't threatened by or even appreciates my feminine strength and success).

You were a good friend. I'm sure she would have regretted blowing up her marriage for some fun with F boys.

Hopefully we can all learn from these kinds of stories!

Feminine strength and success is great, as long as you mix in some traditional femininity. Generally speaking, women are attracted to masculine guys and men are attracted to feminine women.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Zona

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, Zona said:

Lots of nastiness in the comments, dumping on OP and claiming he is the problem because he is so "closed minded".

20 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Reminds me of one of my favorite Aesop's fables...the Dog and his Reflection, was it? Dog dropped his steak in the river barking at his reflection which he believed was another dog with a bigger steak.

 

I didn't read the whole thread on reddit or anything, but I did find it an interesting (and sad) story. It seems to tie in well to the idea that an honest divorce can sometimes be seen as selfish as well as cheating can be.

Although I tend to agree there was a bit of GIGS here, it's easy for us folks on the outside to decide this woman was foolish or selfish with her choices, just as it's easy to judge the husband for his feelings.

Certainly from a financial perspective it was a "bad move," and certainly her husband (like many men) was the wrong person for this sort of thing. Some men would have rolled with it, but people are what they are and probably most can't accept this sort of thing. The converse, though, is also true. Perhaps from a "life satisfaction" perspective, this woman had little choice in a way. She was presumably unhappy enough in her situation that she was willing to take the risk of giving it up. It was clearly a thought-out decision, she waited in an attempt to minimize impact on the kids, and I'm guessing she felt she "had" to do it.

Everyone's a bit different, and people sometimes feel quite genuinely unhappy with a situation they (from the outside) seemingly "should" feel content with. Furthermore, she did the ethical thing in that she at least leveled with her husband about what she wanted.

Perhaps to do other than what she did was to consign herself to genuine emptiness and a certain degree of misery. Some folks just aren't at peace with their "unlived life."

Bringing it back to karma, one wonders what the husband has "done" in all of this. Of course, we only hear one side of the story, but all other things being equal, he probably didn't do anything to "deserve" this "karma" other than to get married early in life. Perhaps he was a milquetoast partner, but let's not kid ourselves, new people are stimulating and I think many folks (even those not inclined to stray) will concede that it's hard for even a really awesome "known quantity" of multiple decades to beat at least the transitory surface allure of attention from new folks.

To a certain extent I think this woman is chasing the "high" of new relationships. Sure it's messing up her life, but do we blame a race car driver who loves the thrill and puts his body (and in a very real way his family's future - since it won't be the same without him) on the line? It's what they really want to do, at least at the time, or they wouldn't have done it.

[Zona]

Only time and self reflection (assuming she is capable of it) will answer the question of if it was worth it. That really depends on her personality and her priorities, which don't seem to include her ex and her kids. My guess is she had already met some one that she was having an affair with and brought up the open marriage angle as a way to legitimize it. But who knows. 

The husband did mention that he spoke to one of his ex-wife's married friends who also was going on the GNO's, and she said all the married women would like to do what she did, but they don't have the guts to actually do it (or reckless stupidity perhaps). All the attention from those younger dudes is pretty intoxicating I guess, especially for middle aged women (same applies to older men loving attention from young hot women.)

Bottom line, if I was her and I was on my deathbed, I can't imagine that I would think to myself, "gee, I'm glad I spent that latter part of my life partying and screwing around, rather than being with my family and grand children". That kind of thinking is foreign to my brain.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Zona

[mark clemson]

16 minutes ago, Zona said:

Bottom line, if I was her and I was on my deathbed, I can't imagine that I would think to myself, "gee, I'm glad I spent that latter part of my life partying and screwing around, rather than being with my family and grand children". That kind of thinking is foreign to my brain.

That's a completely reasonable perspective. I guess the flip side is this woman perhaps didn't want to be on her deathbed feeling like she missed out on doing what she really wanted to do with her life while she still had the chance?

She may not end up alone - again, "karma" vs. reality, she might do the single thing for a while and then eventually find a new partner. The husband might too, or might not. One never knows.

Again I didn't read the whole reddit thread, but I doubt not seeing the grandkids was part of the plan. Although I certainly don't know for sure, my guess is she was surprised that they can't understand her perspective and so are alienated. And that too could change over time as their perspectives on life broaden and they understand how it might feel to be stuck in a bad marriage (assuming that's how she felt).

It's interesting that she waited until she felt they could handle her divorcing. IF she had been even more "selfish" and left when they were younger, perhaps they would have simply accepted it better (after all people divorce all the time without completely alienating their kids). One really never knows how these things will play out.

[Prudence V]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:34 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Anyone else want to weigh in on the instant karma idea for those who were/are in affairs?

John Lennon aside “instant karma” is an internally contradictory construct, but assuming you’re using the term to mean “consequences”:

I was “in an affair”. I didn’t blame my AP for that - we both chose to involve ourselves, having carefully considered the (likely and less likely) consequences. As it happened, we landed up with consequences that neither of us considered very seriously, if at all, at the outset. We both left our previous lives (me: my career, country, friends and family; he: his marriage, home, and associated aspects of life) and started a new life together. We’ve been married more than a decade now. If we were to take stock of “consequences”, they would be:

* we are both very happy together. Far happier than either of us imagined. 
* he has a much closer relationship with his kids than prior. 
* he has a very close relationship with his family again - he’d become estranged from them during his marriage to xBW because she didn’t like them and drove a wedge between them. 
* his career has flourished because he’s not constantly being nagged about wanting to write when the mood takes him. 
* career-wise, I’m doing what I love, too. It’s great.
* we have two homes, on two continents, with a close and loving network of friends around the globe. 
* we’ve encouraged each other to develop in ways that have brought us joy and expanded our mental horizons.

It hasn’t all been smooth sailing - but we’ve faced the challenges together, which has brought us closer. 
 

Obviously, not every relationship “works out” into  along-term, full-time, living together marriage - and affairs are no exception. But I think that a lot of “how things work out” depends on “how things are done” within that relationship. If both partners are fully committed, both are honest with each other, communicate clearly and frequently, both take full responsibility for their actions and inactions, and make sure they carefully consider consequences each step of the way so that the decisions they make are ones they can live with comfortably, and both partners ensure that their needs are being met at all times  and that the relationship they have at any moment is the relationship they would want forever... then they lay the groundwork for something that can be sustained. 
 

From what I see all too often on these boards, though, one partner - usually the OW - is prepared to sacrifice what she really wants “in the short term” hoping for a pay-off later. That is almost certainly a guarantee of it not working out. It sets the pattern for one person to have the upper hand, for resentment to build up, and for a relationship dynamic that is not sustainable. (If he’s not treating you as you deserve to be treated now, that is not going to change sustainably!) Of course, there are other factors like the extent to which your core values are shared, as well as goals, and of course circumstances, that all play a role - but establishing a strong, fair, sustainable dynamic at the outset increases the likelihood of longevity. 

If you want consequences you can comfortably live with in the future, make sure that every decision you make (or don’t make) today is the best decision you can make with the information you have. Take ownership of your agency and use it - don’t position yourself as a passenger in your own life. IMO, anyway. 

[sandylee1]

Consequences...or just coincidence and also a feeling of guilt. 

I know someone who had several terminations and when she got married, she struggled to conceive.

Some actions and patterns of behaviour have natural consequences...it's not specific to being the OW. For example if you're in a relationship with a man who clearly doesn't value you and disrespects you by insulting you...belittling you...by staying in that relationship, you will get hurt and if you eventually leave the damage may have been done...so your inability to leave, can leave you with long term suffering. The wrong you did...was staying in the relationship. Not karma...but a consequence.

 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I'm coming back to the well because last night my uncle died. He's the last surviving sibling of my mother. My mom is having a tough time with that and considering her own morality (like mildly obsessing on thinking she has only a handful of years left to live herself).

Of course my cousins and aunt are beyond grief stricken. 

This makes two deaths for me in two weeks. I still have a heavy load of my own. The attorney I posted about in Oct has made my life hell in many ways since I chose a different strategy and changed attorneys. A lot of other heavy stuff. I'm forlorn.

I feel like poop.

[lillyxoxo]

I believe in karma I aborted mms child, because I couldn't face tearing other kids lives apart the thought of telling my daughter i was pregnant by a man who isn't her dad made me feel sick and guilty. 

I think about my abortion most days and how a potential life had to be ended because of my selfishness. 

I live with that decision everyday , As are evil and destructive.