sexual/emotional affair with a cousin - should I tell what I know?

[Canoehead]

Hi everyone, (sorry, this was posted in another topic, before I figured out this platform....my apologies for the double-post!!),

I've never asked a question online like this, but I find myself at a crossroads and I don't know what to do.  In brief, my girlfriend and I are very close, considering marriage.  We've only been together (living together I mean) for a year, although we've known each other for 14 years and had feelings most of that time, but circumstances were always not right for us to be together. Then, the stars aligned, and we fell in love.  It's been wonderful, mostly, and we have a great deal in common, same values, similar spiritual/personal-growth inclination, very sexually compatible, intellectually similar, etc.  In short, we have a great connection and potential for the future.

The issue is her cousin.  They used to have sex, at family reunions, (& once when she travelled to his province to spend a weekend with him).  Overall, I don't know the details, but it happened multiple times, starting in their early 20s.  Now it's been a decade, and they've maintained a private email/chat communication, like penpals, ever since.  More than 100 messages.  They've shared details of their relationships as other people have come and gone, and in every way it seems, they've been 'close.'

Then he got engaged, and STILL showed up at her house afterwards, propositioning her for sex.  She says she turned him down then, but I'm honestly not sure.  It would be the first for her if she did do so.  But it was also just before her and I started dating, and I think she knew if she told me she slept with her cousin who was cheating on his FIANCEE to do so, I would have broken up with her.  Which I would have, because, regardless of what happened in "the past", she's now in her 30s, and having sex with your cousin, maintaining what is effectively an emotional affair, and then cheating on current partners, is not "the past" anymore.  

So what should I do?  I do love this girl, and I can understand her own sexually-questionable choices in the past coming from emotional insecurity, a tough childhood, etc.  I get it.  We all have skeletons in our closet, and I sure found comfort in sex when I was younger and insecure.  I'm not proud of every sexual encounter I had either.  So I can accept "the past". But not the present.

So I have asked her to do two things.  One is to have the decency to tell his fiancee that he propositioned her (my gf) for sex, after getting engaged.  She has a right to know she's marrying a cheater.  (NOTE: They just had a baby together; so now she's co-parenting with a cheater who has sex with his own cousin at family reunions, and she doesn't even know it.)

Two is to tell him she won't continue their 1-on-1 private correspondence anymore, but if they have messages to send (e.g., her last message, she said, was to congratulate him on becoming a dad), they should do it in a group-chat -- with me, the guy's fiancee, my girlfriend, and the guy.  One big happy family, right?  

To me, that seems reasonable.  She does have to continue communicating with her cousin.  But I do not accept her continuing their private relationship.

The thing is, she has promised me she will do these things.  But then, months have gone by and she doesn't.  Because "it's awkward", and obviously she's embarrassed.  However, she's still sending him messages....

I don't want to lose this girl.  I'm in my late 40s, already divorced, and was REALLY selective (so I thought) in making a wise choice with this girl.  She has it all, and together, we have it all.  Except honesty, and a lack of sexual boundaries within her family, it would seem....

So I feel like I should give her an ultimatum, and then leave if she won't confront him.  But I don't want to leave and be alone, and do I break my kids' hearts as they see another "family" bite the dust?  And lose this girl, and long-time friend of mine, over something that happened "in the past" and that she assures me would never happen again (i.e., having sex with her cousin)?

I don't want to throw away a great relationship because of 'mistakes'.  But I don't want to invest in a relationship with someone who lies and won't 'do the right thing' and stand up to this guy, AND tell his fiancee the truth about him.

I also feel like I should tell the guy's fiancee, if my girlfriend won't.  She has a right to know.  That woman is signing herself up for a lifetime of being cheated on, and doesn't even know it.  (Assuming the guy will continue behaving like this; my sense is that my girlfriend is likely not his only affair, but I don't know for sure...)  But IF I tell her, it'll be clear that it was me, even if I somehow do it anonymously, because obviously, others don't know about this, just me.  So in telling her, I am exposing my girlfriend's cousin-affair to, potentially, her whole family.  .....bleh....

Ugh.....advice?

Thanks all. Much, much appreciated.

[central]

This is up to your fg to decide, IMO.  Interfere and you may be her ex, or you will be anathema to some members of her family.  Your only option is to break up with your gf if you do not like what SHE decides to do, if anything.

[ShyViolet]

I think the whole telling the fiancé thing is a mistake.  It's not your place to tell the fiancé.  It's not your place to make your gf tell the fiancé.  It's in the past.  The relationship between the cousin and his fiancé is not your business.  Just leave them alone, especially since they have a baby.  Stay out of it.

The only ultimatum you should be giving is for your gf not to associate with this cousin anymore.  Not speak to him.  Why does she really need to speak to him?

Frankly I'm really surprised you would stay with a woman after finding out that she had sex with her cousin.  You're not creeped out by that?

[Canoehead]

Thanks, central and ShyViolet, for the responses already!  I appreciate it very much.  

To clarify, ShyV, yes, it creeps me out like mad that she slept with her cousin.  Initially, I was told it was "just once" and she was a teenager and vulnerable, etc.  So I understood it.  Then it slowly came out that no, it happened more than once, she actually traveled to his city to stay with him for the weekend at least once, and only recently did I find out that they have maintained a close communication relationship for the past decade or more.  I feel like the classic frog getting boiled by someone slowly turning up the heat. 

The thing is, I do understand that people make mistakes.  But "the past" has to stop being "the present", and I feel like their emotional/friendship-thing is just inappropriate.  And when he crossed the line by propositioning her AFTER getting engaged, that was the last straw for me.  That's why I feel like I cannot accept their ongoing relationship.  She says she is disgusted by what happened between them.  But then she did it again, at least once for sure, AND continues to maintain this private chat that's been going on now for over 10 years..... So she can't be all that disgusted, can she? 

(Oh, to add salt to the wound, she did also admit that they had great sex.  But as she said, she's had "great sex with lots of people".  So gee, yeah, thanks....I feel so special.....) 

Ugh....."creeped out" is a good description.  The more I describe this here, the more disgusted I feel about it all......  I am "okay" with accepting that people do dumb stuff when they're young, inexperienced, and vulnerable, and especially if they've experienced their own traumatic childhood stuff that hasn't been healed.  So....yeah, I can accept that, like I said.  But to think of it happening THROUGH her 20s, not just at the beginning, and potentially at least, into her 30s although I don't know for sure, and I'm just.....yeah, it's disgusting.  It makes me feel like everything else I know about her is thrown into question.  She takes "healing" and "authenticity" and "spirituality" and everything so seriously.  But then maintains an affair with her cousin.....hmmmm.....yeah, totally, totally gross.  

TBH, it's the notion of starting again, being alone again, etc., that holds me back.  I just wanted to "fall in love", give my heart to "that special person", and live the proverbial "happily ever after" dream.  You know?  I am a romantic at heart.   I just want to experience love, and by God I will never lie in a hurtful way to my partner, and NEVER would cheat, oh my God, no.  I have a heart that just wants to love and be loved.  Why is it so f***ing complicated????!!!!!!!  

Anyway, thanks again for your responses.  ....sorry for the little rant here.... 

[ShyViolet]

3 hours ago, Canoehead said:

TBH, it's the notion of starting again, being alone again, etc., that holds me back.  

Not wanting to "start over" and be alone is not enough of a reason to stay with a person.

This whole thing she did.... it just really demonstrates poor judgment and questionable character.

[stillafool]

Honestly I wouldn't  be surprised if this lady and her cousin are in love with each other and will keep this going.  They know they probably won't be accepted by the family if they get together and they both maybe marrying beards.   I hope not.

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, Canoehead said:

 I just want to experience love, and by God I will never lie in a hurtful way to my partner, and NEVER would cheat, oh my God, no.  I have a heart that just wants to love and be loved.

She's out there Canoe, you don't have to settle for just anything.

[mark clemson]

If it was me, I'm pretty sure I would find this situation sketchy enough that it would be a deal breaker. YMMV.

[smackie9]

Ya after reading your post, this would be a dealbreaker for me the minute I found out. No matter how good the relationship seems to be, I myself have a moral values, and I find this not right. I wouldn't trust her as far as I can throw her. Sorry, but I have nothing positive to say about your situation. Good luck.

As for telling the fiance, that's their business to figure out. If it was your sister or a friend of yours you would have my permission.

Edited December 20, 2020 by smackie9

[Poutrew]

Is it her 1st cousin, or '4th cousin on her grandmother's side'?  It makes the difference between almost incest or no big deal. If it is too close on the family tree, it would be like monkey branching from her father to her brother, if you get what I'm saying. The rest is what you are personally prepared to accept, although I find it telling you are already comparing yourself to the par-boiled frog... you may have already answered your own question.

[Acacia98]

The cousin incest thing: look, there are cultures in which first cousins marry. So, as much as it disgusts me, I will set my disgust aside for a moment and talk about her relationship with the guy like it was any other regular relationship: the thing is, she has already lied to you about her relationship with this guy. And she keeps releasing new bits of truth from time to time (or you somehow find out by monitoring her phone?). She's a liar. How can you believe anything she says at this point? Who knows what new truth you'll find out tomorrow?

I wouldn't tell her cousin's fiance because, you know what, she may be lying about her cousin showing up and propositioning her. Maybe she's the one who tried to seduce him. You never know.

I also find it weird that you have so many details about a relationship that is "in her past." Me, personally, if I'm done with a relationship, that chapter is closed. I'm not going to discuss what happened when we were together with a new boyfriend. Bringing up those kinds of details is a sure way to manipulate the new guy by making him jealous and insecure about his place in my life.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Acacia98

[Wiseman2]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:02 AM, Canoehead said:

.  We've only been together (living together I mean) for a year.

Unfortunately you willingly entered the relationship knowing about her past and whatever sordid details there are.

Are they still sexually involved? Your choice is to accept her past ( if it's truly in the past) or end it.

She cannot change her family composition or past.

However if this kissing cousins thing is still happening, you'll have to reconsider how suitable she is as a partner.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Wiseman2

[Lance Mannion]

Lots of issues in play here.

1.) Isolate YOUR motivations for your two demands. What it looks like to me is that your motivation to refrain from private communication is to safeguard your relationship, sunlight and transparency are good and essential. The demand to tell the cousin's woman looks to be focused on blowing up that relationship. Whether this is an accurate insight into your motivation or not doesn't matter, the outcome is highly likely and independent of your motivation, and so the question for you is what happens if his relationship with his woman blows the hell up? One outcome is that he becomes a free agent and can now put more attention on your woman. How is that good for you?

Yes, telling his woman is the right thing to do, but at what cost to you? There will be a cost to you, somehow, somewhere, it's going to spring back on you.

2.) The cousin thing. Look back over the last  10 years and you see a remarkable shift in public opinion on transsexuals, go back 40 years and the same for homosexuals, go back 70 years and the same for inter-racial couples, go back 100 years and inter-religious couples. The point here is that your opinion is the product of cultural teaching. The entire Darwin (Charles) clan is riddled with cousin-marriage, it used to be much more common in the West than at present. Moreover, it used to be encouraged in some circles, was not a mark of shame or a marker of personality defect and low class.

3.) Her feelings of disgust. You don't believe her. You're probably right. She's giving you the culturally approved message and one also designed to convince you that there is "no going back" for her, in other words, she's a safe choice for you. They were close, had history, had attraction, their personalities meshed, they were available, they were young, sex was exciting. I don't think the cousin-angle was all that important, he could have been the "Boy Next Door" and almost all of those factors would still be in play.

4.) What to do going forward? In one respect you're drawn a lucky ace - due to prejudice she can't really have a real relationship with him as she could with a "Facebook boyfriend" or the old "Boy Next Door." This is going to be a guy who is like an ex-husband that you have to see because your wife had kids with the dude. They had something, the chapter is closed, and she's with you. Lots of dudes deal with that exact scenario, you just have a unique twist with your situation.

5.) Her value as a woman and partner to you. You have knowledge of this past relationship, but how in-depth is your knowledge of her other past history? Lots of women have skeletons, and frankly, I'd take a woman who had a romantic-sexual affair with her cousin than a woman who had gang-bangs or was promiscuous or even one with many failed relationships, thus left with lots of baggage. You can't have perfect, so where is your line on "good enough."

6.) The issue of feeling safe and comfortable with her considering her continued contact. No easy answer here, but here you're also dealing with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't as would be the case with a new woman. The ongoing private chats and the relationship depth needed to want to do that and keep it alive is something that is, and should be, a concern to you. That needs to die off and stay dead. Lots of people do this, they lose touch with loved ones and they don't need an event to make them storm off in anger. Can she do that though? Honesty and transparency is going to be key here, because that relationship to her cousin does pose some degree of threat - not certainty of disaster,  just a threat of disaster.

Good luck.

[smackie9]

I totally understand it's not unusual for 1st cousins to marry. I worked with a Portuguese woman that married her cousin, and it was arranged too. Weird but whatever, that doesn't really bother me that much.

It's the dynamics of your GFs relationship with him and : " he got engaged, and STILL showed up at her house afterwards, propositioning her for sex." The guy is a pig, she lusted after the pig and allows contact with this pig...as they say, you are the company you keep. 

[stillafool]

There's too many people out here to date that you shouldn't have to bang your own cousin for 2 decades.

[Canoehead]

Wow.  I feel so much gratitude toward a collection of complete strangers!  The internet is an amazing 'place.'
Thank you so much, everyone, for your feedback and advice.  It has been very validating, and indeed, has pinpointed exactly the issue --- which is simply that this is a choice-point for me.  Everyone has baggage and makes mistakes, but it's true that repetitive lying IS a damning testament of one's character, and in this case, yeah......the longer I've gotten to know her 'behind the scenes' as opposed to simply being friends, the more I've realized that lying has been endemic in her life.  For example, in having our "closure conversation" over this last night, she revealed that yes, they had maintained this affair through their previous relationships with other people.  Boyfriends for her and girlfriends for him came and went.  They maintained their affair through them all, maintained a private correspondence and discussed with each other all the details of their actual partners at the time.  

To clarify, no, I don't monitor her phone, nor ask for a lot of details about the past.  But a few things came up that activated my 'radar' I guess you could say, and as I expressed my concern about their ongoing private relationship, more and more details came out, usually in angry outbursts on her part (because yes, it's totally my fault for not accepting that they are now "just friends" and will continue their "friendship" having apparently learned from their mistakes in the past, not to do that again; on the other hand, him propositioning her was literally the last time they saw each other, and the time before that, they had sex.....).  

Anyway, yeah, it's becoming clear to me that 1) she has questionable character (at best) when it comes to honesty, and when it comes to self-control about basic moral issues (like not cheating on your partners); 2) I don't accept any of this; and 3) her refusal to be upfront and honest, instead stretching out this for months and months and months while the story slowly changes and the details become more sordid, denotes a type of person I do not want to spend my life with.  

Right now......I feel validated, grateful, and heartbroken.  My last partner left me a mere few weeks after our wedding, after I found out she was continuing an affair with her first boyfriend from high school.  When we got married, everyone we knew, including me, thought we were practically the model couple.  But none of it was true, and half a decade of apparent love turned into "I have never felt true love for you, not even on our wedding day." 

So, I kind of fell apart afterwards, did a lot of therapy, healing, and was ready to start a new relationship, having been selective and not just jumped at my hormonal response to someone, feeling secure that we were building on a long-standing friendship and knowledge of each other, and then while dating, practicing scrupulous honesty and a practice of being responsible for my own insecurities by dealing with them at the childhood level, rather than projecting them onto the new relationship.  I worked my butt off for five years to regain my confidence and self-respect, and to grow past my own tendency to sacrifice my personal authenticity for the sake of attachment to a person.  (Which clearly, I was starting to do here...) 

And now, poof.  Up in smoke goes another one.  WTF man....seriously.  Romantic relationships are the worst.  And the best.  Sometimes.  Because, goddammit, I keep wanting to be in one and "just be loved for who I am".  You know?

Anyway, rant over.  Thanks everyone.  You helped clarify things for me a great deal.  

Looks like 2021 is going to be a year of embracing being single, and living again for me. 

(And exploring more deeply in therapy why the hell I continue to choose women who are already emotionally involved with someone but pretend not to be.  Somehow, my unconscious must be attracted to this, like I'm trying to re-create childhood abandonment or something.  In any case, time to put a stop to this unhealthy tendency in myself.  I've got some decades of good livin' left to do, and lots of love and joy to share with "the right person", once I can finally learn to recognize her when she shows up.)  

P.S. Still not sure about the ethics regarding telling the fiancee or not, but I appreciate your thoughts on this as well, and the consensus is clearly that it's not my place to do so.  Fair enough.  I just feel that if I were her and about to marry a guy like this, I would be hurt but ultimately grateful if someone knew of his philandering character and told me.  Having a kid together and finding out is one thing.  Spending a whole bunch more years together, having more kids, etc., and THEN finding out, or else being cheated on the whole time and living the hellish reality of being with a cheater and liar, is a whole other level of nastiness I feel like she could be prevented from having to suffer through.  Myself, I'd be grateful, in the long run, if someone told me the truth and gave me the ability to make a free choice.  Otherwise, I feel complicit in his deceit towards her.  It feels like I am being drawn into this lie and maintaining it now, for him and my current partner, and I'm frankly very uncomfortable with that.  But on the other hand, why screw up their life from the outside?  Although AM I screwing it up, or actually improving it by giving her the respect of living in the truth?  

In any case, I DO know that some of my motivations here are straight-up hurt feelings and wanting revenge, and your comments did help me see that.  So, before I decide one way or the other, I'm definitely going to 'sit on this' for a while until I've sorted through my feelings fully and can say confidently that it's coming from a benevolent place.  Which probably means I'll never end up telling her, because honestly?  My feelings ain't gettin' sorted out fully anytime soon over this, and the notion I will EVER feel 'benevolent' toward this cousin seems, errr, unlikely.

Okay, thanks again everyone.  You've strengthened my faith in the kindness of strangers and the decency of people in general.  

Edited December 21, 2020 by Canoehead

[smackie9]

Telling someone the truth can have serious repercussions. The fiance may not believe you. If you choose to do this, do it after the holidays, and with some physical proof. You are an outsider, and outsiders are never believed, they would believe the one that says they love them.

[Clockwork]

My wife was young at one point, around the age of first going out to a bar and she saw an older cousin at the bar and was hanging out with him innocently. He was a bit older and their families had sort of lost contact with each other so she never saw him. But he asked her to come back to his place and she did not thinking anything of it. Long story short, she got high with him at his place and combined with the alcohol they slept together. She woke up the next morning and even with a clear head they had sex again. So to be honest cousin sex is probably less rare than one might think. Granted this before I met her and she told me about it when we were dating. She never has seen this cousin save for a funeral and they never interact with each other. 

That's the thing, this guy you are talking about keeps pursuing your girlfriend. It is one thing if they had a fling and then let it go, but you figure it would be awkward to keep in contact with him, especially since neither are single. Your GF may not want it broadcast that her cousin and her once bumped each other, so I don't know about blowing the lid off of this thing.