'Labels are bad, and used for justification! Or, 2 Sides of the same coin.

[Blind-Sided]

Hi All,

There are a few things I've been thinking about lately, and @mark clemson thread on people being selfish brought this up to the top of things I think about.  So, this thread is more of an exercise in how people perceive different labels.  There is no right or wrong here... it's more of a way to get other views. If you see an error in what I think these labels are, or just have other thoughts on a label... let me know.  So... lets get on with it......

Narcissistic: This label seems to get thrown around a lot.  Especially after a relationship goes bad. OR... when someone is looking to end a relationship.  The core points here are: High self importance, Lack of empathy, Belief that the person should only associate with other important people, Entitlement,  arrogant toward others deemed lower, projection of issues onto others, and not taking responsibility.  To me... this describes every shallow, self centered person I've met.  AND... over the years, I've known a couple girls who fit this perfectly. (never dated one)    But, in my life, I've known SO MANY women who have thrown that label onto a man that they broke up with.   AND... knowing the guy in question... as being the "person on the outside"... I simply don't see it.  On a personal note... at the early stages of my exW breaking away... I was a accused of this, but to be honest... not a single point of this describes who I am.

Controlling or Manipulative:  While there are some clear cut circumstances of this, like physical restraint, or threats. (Physical or mental)  but there are WAY MORE cases where I see people being accused of this.... and it's more of "Spectrum" type thing.  I was accused of this... and still am being accused of this.   But I don't see it. (I know, someone can't see themselves)  But my stance here is... one person's "Manipulation" is the next person's "Debate".   So, what really defines this?     As a VERY broad overview in my mind.... the person accusing "Manipulation" could be a case of "Sour Grapes" because they don't debate well, have thin skin, or simply gave in to what they didn't want too many times because they just didn't feel like standing their ground.    So.... is it really "Manipulation" if there was never any pushback on the subjects at hand?  I say no it's not.

Gaslighting: Now... this is a term I never really heard until coming here.  But, the reference comes from the old movie or play "Gas Light".   This is where a guy was trying to drive his wife crazy by turning down the lights, and saying they haven't changed.  I guess the core here is the denial of feelings. While that word never came up during my divorce... I was told... in an angry voice... "Don't tell me how I feel !!"   The thing is... I wasn't.   For full disclosure, After the paperwork was final, I found the exW crying in the kitchen and I said... "Why cry? You are getting what you want."    But to that point... there are multiple threads here about it, and people accusing other people of it.

So there it is... the top labels I've seen since joining 2 years ago.  But my stance is... how may times do they get used in the justification of what someone is doing to their partner, opposed to just simply taking responsibility on their own actions? (or lack of action)   BUT... the real irony here is... this is the real proof of being a "Narcissist."   While someone is accusing their partner of it... is it just the projection of themselves onto another person as a means to an end. 

What are your thoughts?  Have you been accused?  Have you accused someone out of anger?

Thanks for any input you have.

[Wiseman2]

People in the throes of divorce/break-ups are hurting. Sometimes a sour grapes approach is a stage in the separation/healing process.

Everyone's ex is a narcissist, sociopath, psycho, whatever when people are venting.

Obviously Dr. Google is not making a diagnosis out of the DSM 5.

Divorces can get ugly before, during and after. Lots of character assassinations are flung around.

Of course the name calling and real diagnostic criteria are vastly different.

[Weezy1973]

Most of those things are on a spectrum, and everybody can do them from time to time. “He was being controlling” is different from “he is a controlling person”. 
 

Gaslighting is the one that is pretty cut and dried, but even that isn’t as malevolent as people think. I dated someone that I suspect had Borderline Personality Disorder and she certainly was gaslighting, but it’s because she actually believed the lies she made up in her head. 

[Blind-Sided]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Most of those things are on a spectrum, and everybody can do them from time to time. 

I think that's the part of it that sticks in my head, and I've tried to grasp onto.   Someone who sees "A controlling person"  may be of a weak personality.   it's not that the person in question is controlling... but the person who sees it just doesn't know how to stand up for themselves... or gives in too easy. That can be from being timid, or a people pleaser.  In this case... does that really make the stronger personality a "Controlling person"?  I would say no it doesn't.    BUT... as soon as the relationship goes bad... the stronger willed person gets a label slapped on to them, and they are now the bad guy/gal.

 

[Gaeta]

36 minutes ago, Blind-Sided said:

 Someone who sees "A controlling person"  may be of a weak personality.   it's not that the person in question is controlling... but the person who sees it just doesn't know how to stand up for themselves... or gives in too easy. That can be from being timid, or a people pleaser.  In this case... does that really make the stronger personality a "Controlling person"?

 

I have a feeling you're trying to justify yourself here. Control is control, no matter if the person in front of you has a strong sense of self or not. If you know you are dealing with someone with a milder temper, someone easily influenced, someone who can't deal with confrontation and you are not sensitive to this and continue debating-imposing your views, that's being controlling yes. Example: I am sure you adapt your debate if the person in front of you is a child or teen? right? but you don't adjust to an adult that you know cannot stand their ground as you do?

ETA: In a sense what you're saying is you are who you are and too bad for the rest of you who can't handle it.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Gaeta

[Weezy1973]

If someone really is a controlling narcissist they will take advantage of normal or “weaker” people to get their way. In healthy relationships one person imposing their view on the other doesn’t happen. There may be negotiations and there certainly will be compromise, but there won’t be a need to get exactly what one wants. They realize the other person in the relationship is just as important as they are.

[mark clemson]

FWIW, I agree that most of these things are on a spectrum and definitely that labels tend to get thrown around a lot online. For example, narcissist is a diagnosed PD, but it takes a person with specialized knowledge to do that and even then it can be tricky. Having a few narcissistic tendencies, however, is apparently quite common (which is also true of the other PDs). So e.g. people with "big egos" who go through multiple partners rather quickly (and generate the associated resentment) might be readily mislabeled by an disgruntled Ex.

With the spectrum/intensity aspect, some labels can also be essentially a matter of opinion. I do think that labels matter and can be misused. For example, thug and domestic terrorist are both labels that imply criminality, where there may in fact be none.

Edited December 31, 2020 by mark clemson

[Blind-Sided]

4 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I have a feeling you're trying to justify yourself here.....

Nope... not at all.  I'm just using sluff from personal reference, to convey thoughts.  I think part of this is also coming from things I see in the news where certain groups will go off the deep end simply buy using the wrong words around them.  Or more directly... the over use of "Political Correctness" and how people react.  When I was a kid... a Mell Brooks Movie was funny.  Now if they released something like that... there would be riots.  It's the same way with some of these labels.   

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

If someone really is a controlling narcissist they will take advantage of normal or “weaker” people to get their way........

I think you hit the nail on the head with that.