Being a Friend Versus Being a Therapist

[Wave Rider]

I've enjoyed great friendships with a number of men in my life.  These same-gender friendships feel natural to me, and I haven't needed to do much "work" to be able to make them satisfying.  By contrast, my friendships with women have been problematic, not so much because of the possibility of romance or sex, but because my friendships with women invariably devolve into "therapist" relationships, where one of us is complaining about our life problems and the other is playing the role of therapist.  Sometimes it's me complaining about my relationship problems to her, and her playing the role of therapist, and sometimes it's her talking about the pain and anxiety in her life, and me trying to play the role of therapist to her. 

I don't like this dynamic.  I want a woman who is a friend, not a "therapist" or a "therapy client."  

I have a friendship with a woman that I like, and I want this friendship to grow.  Our level of emotional intimacy is deepening and she is sharing more of her difficult and painful life experiences with me.  I find myself very tempted to slide into the role of therapist using the the usual therapy tools of mirroring, validation, and empathy in a nonjudgemental way.   But something about this feels too mushy and therapist-ish and not really so much like a friendship.  

If she shares her painful life experiences with me, I might ask myself how I would respond to a male friend in such a case.  But women seem to be more sensitive to other people's emotional attunement, and I'm concerned that responding to her emotionally the same way I would respond to my male friends will feel a bit cold and dismissive to her.  Most of my male friends aren't looking for a lot of emotional support and empathy, but women seem to want to that more.  But I don't know how to give a lot of emotional support without turning into a therapist.  So I'm hoping for suggestions on how to be a friend to her without turning into her therapist.  

Edited January 13, 2021 by Wave Rider

[basil67]

Women connect by sharing feelings.   When I go exercising with my BFF, I refer to it as our "therapy session".   I'm to be a bridesmaid in an upcoming wedding because I supported that friend out of her previous, toxic marriage.    This is the kind of stuff you're talking about, yes?

The women who share this stuff with you do so because they feel comfortable and safe with you.  They trust you.  The only way to avoid the therapy stuff is to keep some distance between you and them.   Don't get too close.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by basil67

[basil67]

Just now, basil67 said:

duplicate post

 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by basil67

[Wave Rider]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Women connect by sharing feelings.   When I go exercising with my BFF, I refer to it as our "therapy session".   I'm to be a bridesmaid in an upcoming wedding because I supported that friend out of her previous, toxic marriage.    

The women who share this stuff with you do so because they feel comfortable and safe with you.  They trust you.  The only way to avoid this sharing is to keep some distance between you and them.

 

Well, if they feel comfortable with me then I guess maybe that's a sign that I'm doing something right.  The cliche advice for men when women share their feelings and problems is to just listen without suggesting any solutions.  I'm inclined to say things like, "Wow, that sounds hard" or "Yeah, I struggle with that too" or "I sorry to hear that didn't go well."  And then I can proceed to talk about my problems and my emotions.  Is that all I need to do here, or is there more?  Eventually, to me, this kind of relationship sort of feels boring.  It never seems to "go anywhere" or "progress" in any way.  It actually feels sort of emasculating to me, just talking about problems without doing anything about them.  What am I missing here?  

I do want to be her friend, but I don't want to be her girlfriend.  I want to be her friend and still be a man.  Does that make sense?  

Edited January 13, 2021 by Wave Rider

[Wiseman2]

Pull back from all the oversharing. Don't be the male-girlfriend.

Try talking about stuff that doesn't involve problems or complaints.

 

[Wave Rider]

11 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Pull back from all the oversharing. Don't be the male-girlfriend.

Try talking about stuff that doesn't involve problems or complaints.

 

I like this.  Sharing is good.  Oversharing is bad.  Amidst a discussion of a lot of fun topics, sharing some pain and problems and complaints is good.  Oversharing on these is bad.  

[FMW]

@basil67 is right.  Most women share (including what you're calling oversharing) with their women friends, it's natural and is usually part of what bonds us.    

I do make a conscious effort with my guy friends to not go too deep on those kind of things.

Before things start veering into the therapy territory, try to gently change the subject.  Most women past their mid twenties understand the dynamics are different.  If she values your friendship she'll save those types of conversations for her girlfriends.  

[Wave Rider]

2 hours ago, FMW said:

@basil67 is right.  Most women share (including what you're calling oversharing) with their women friends, it's natural and is usually part of what bonds us.    

I do make a conscious effort with my guy friends to not go too deep on those kind of things.

Before things start veering into the therapy territory, try to gently change the subject.  Most women past their mid twenties understand the dynamics are different.  If she values your friendship she'll save those types of conversations for her girlfriends.  

So how deep do women go on this with each other?  Would they share, for example, that they're on antidepressant medication, or that they struggle to find meaning in life, or that their anxiety is so bad that they're having trouble sleeping or functioning in life, or that they can't understand why their romantic relationships never seem to work out and they're losing hope - things of that nature?  These are things that men would not normally share with each other, and in the past when I've had female friends and things of this nature were shared between us, I felt like it made things awkward and weird between us.  

Edited January 13, 2021 by Wave Rider

[flitzanu]

this really depends on if you're trying to bang her or not.

if you're not trying to bang her, then be whatever you want, emotional connections with platonic women can help you yourself grow emotionally.

if you're trying to bang her, being her girlfriend isn't going to help.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Wave Rider said:

So how deep do women go on this with each other?  Would they share, for example, that they're on antidepressant medication, or that they struggle to find meaning in life, or that their anxiety is so bad that they're having trouble sleeping or functioning in life, or that they can't understand why their romantic relationships never seem to work out and they're losing hope - things of that nature?  

yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.

[Wave Rider]

8 minutes ago, basil67 said:

yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.

That's good to know, and somewhat of a surprise to me.  I guess I can see that.  Men rarely discuss such topics with anyone personally, and men usually need to go to a therapist, or seek to talk about them anonymously on an online forum, to discuss such things.

It still feels odd to me to discuss those things with a woman, even one who is solidly a platonic friend.  I do have some of those things in my own past, though there has been a great deal of improvement in my emotional health in the last few years.  I would still be reluctant to tell anyone face-to-face that I used to be on antidepressants or that things were quite bad for me emotionally for awhile, especially a woman who I had any inkling of the possibility of having romantic interest in.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to tell even a platonic female friend.  I'd be more inclined to disclose my milder problems that exist in the present.   

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

Men rarely discuss such topics with anyone personally, and men usually need to go to a therapist, or seek to talk about them anonymously on an online forum, to discuss such things.

Agree. It's not 'lets grab a a beer'.🍻

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Wave Rider said:

It still feels odd to me to discuss those things with a woman, even one who is solidly a platonic friend.  I do have some of those things in my own past, though there has been a great deal of improvement in my emotional health in the last few years.  I would still be reluctant to tell anyone face-to-face that I used to be on antidepressants or that things were quite bad for me emotionally for awhile, especially a woman who I had any inkling of the possibility of having romantic interest in.  I probably wouldn't be inclined to tell even a platonic female friend.  I'd be more inclined to disclose my milder problems that exist in the present.   

Yes, men and women are quite different.  Some guys share like women do, but it tends not to be the norm.

When we share, it's very much a part of showing that we really understand because we've walked in that place too.  But to be clear, we don't generally blurt this stuff out to all and sundry, this kind of information gets released when we're comfortable with someone and have established trust.  Occasionally I've disclosed that I use antidepressants and the response comes back "Oh, I work though it without meds" or "go for a walk in the sun/go and socialise - that will fix you"...those people then become of the group which I don't disclose anything personal to.  

[Wave Rider]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Yes, men and women are quite different.  Some guys share like women do, but it tends not to be the norm.

When we share, it's very much a part of showing that we really understand because we've walked in that place too.  But to be clear, we don't generally blurt this stuff out to all and sundry, this kind of information gets released when we're comfortable with someone and have established trust.  Occasionally I've disclosed that I use antidepressants and the response comes back "Oh, I work though it without meds" or "go for a walk in the sun/go and socialise - that will fix you"...those people then become of the group which I don't disclose anything personal to.  

Yeah, some people aren't "safe" to confess these things too, as demonstrated by their poor response to your displays of vulnerability.  

Another thing I have trouble disclosing is anxiety about being rejected.  This applies more to romantic partners, but can also apply to friendships.  It seems OK to confess to a friend that I have anxiety about going to the dentist etc., but if I say to my friend, "I'm worried that you'll lose interest in our friendship and drift away" then that's just awkward.  Disclosing to someone that you are afraid that they will reject you or leave you (whether a friend or a lover) seems to put a lot of pressure on them to stay in the friendship/relationship.  But it's also honest, right?  If my biggest fear in a friendship/relationship is that the other person will lose interest in me and walk away, then it would be honest and vulnerable of me to tell them that, but it would also be very awkward and make the friendship/relationship weird.  See what I'm saying?  

[basil67]

Yes, I understand completely.    I'd talk about fear of rejection in dating because that's not about my friend, but I would draw the line at sharing that you worry that the friend will lose interest in the friendship.   And as a woman, I'd draw the line for the exact reason you say - because it puts too much pressure on them.    The latter is between you and your therapist, and part of the equation is the acceptance that friendships do come and go during our lives.

[Ellener]

16 hours ago, Wave Rider said:

So how deep do women go on this with each other?  Would they share, for example, that they're on antidepressant medication, or that they struggle to find meaning in life, or that their anxiety is so bad that they're having trouble sleeping or functioning in life, or that they can't understand why their romantic relationships never seem to work out and they're losing hope - things of that nature?  These are things that men would not normally share with each other, and in the past when I've had female friends and things of this nature were shared between us, I felt like it made things awkward and weird between us.  

It's not the sharing of the information- it's what you do next.

I have a handful of close friends who pretty much know everything about me. The good, the bad, the ugly. Last year was a tough year for me financially, one of my wealthy friends wanted to help; I said no thanks, I'll work it out, and explained I didn't want to change the dynamics of our friendship or have to 'guard my tongue'. She understood- I wanted someone to know, not to fix things.

Men do seem to be hard wired to fix things! But women can be over-nurturing and do it too.

Everyone needs a confidante sometimes, but also to work things out their own way, not be disempowered by the experience of sharing their deepest feelings. Just be an encourager.

That will also prevent you collecting a group of people who look to others to sort them out! Which never ends well in my experience...but we've all got over-involved at some time or other. Live and learn ( or not! )

[Lotsgoingon]

Therapy is very different from friendship. Therapy you walk in the door. "How you doing?" they ask and bang, I launch right into what's bothering me or what I want to work on. With friends, I might greet them and tell a funny story, a silly story, talk about the trip to meet them. Might describe a quirky character I encountered on the way to meeting them. Or mention that I got a parking ticket. Later, I might talk about an interesting book I'm reading, a Netflix show I like, a Netflix show I love but am embarrassed that I watch ... and on and on ... and then we get to the ups and downs of life.

BTW: those responses you identified are great. You do NOT want to give advice. The magic of friendship is that simply acknowledging the other person's pain creates healing. That's because many of us are embarrassed about what's not working in our life. We hide stuff from others and from ourselves. So when people get the nerve to share some pain with a friend and the friend just acknowledges it, that's huge! Now the person in pain doesn't feel ashamed, and they can put their problems in context and start to think freely about how to address their problems.

Another response you can develop is to listen to a friend describing a problem or a dilemma and let your mind roam to when you've faced a similar dilemma or heard of a similar dilemma. Again, don't say THEREFORE DO THIS. But let's say your friend complains about an overbearing mother. You can listen and at some point you might say oh wow, that reminds me of the time my mother used to drive me nuts or that reminds me of the way my aunt treats my cousin.  Then share a quick sentence. Don't take over the conversation but share a quick sentence. And pay attention. You can pause ... and your friend will likely feel affirmed ... or you can notice that your friend is enjoying your story and you can keep going. But by listening, you can learn a ton about life from hearing the stories of friends. You don't have to experience everything first hand. Often it's better to learn second hand--vicariously. 

You can also compliment your friends on what you see are their strengths. "I'm sorry you're going through that. I think of you as someone who always makes sensible decisions." There's a reason you're trying to be their friends. Go ahead and praise them for what you like about them if you want. Often in the midst of our problems, we need friends to remind us that we have strengths. 

I have many close women friends, women I talk to about all the serious stuff of life. I'm one of those guys who loves talking about serious stuff. But what I think you're missing is that I might spend an entire conversation with one of my friends telling silly stories about clumsy stuff I did in the last week. I might talk about a tv show that interests me, that I recommend to them or that I just want to talk about for my own benefit. 

Also, I'll share stuff that went well in recent days, things that I'm proud of at my job, interesting meetings or experiences I've had.  Or I'll talk about things I'm doing to try to keep sane during the quarantine. Example: I've been really improving my cooking over this period. But I've had plenty of disasters. Disasters are great to share with friends. Always produces humor and laughs. 

Interesting, that several of the women I'm close to, we got to be close by making each other laugh. We bonded over our skewed view of the world. And then over time, we got to serious stuff. And now half the time we're talking serious one moment and silly the next. I laugh like crazy with these friends--and get serious as needed. 

Consider sharing about funny stuff that is going on, funny thoughts you have, goofy things you've done. And share the great stuff going on, things you are proud of. Friendship thrives when we cover the range of feelings. And laughter and silliness abut dumb things you've done ... is always a good addition. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Lotsgoingon

[Watercolors]

On 1/13/2021 at 8:46 PM, Wave Rider said:

Yeah, some people aren't "safe" to confess these things too, as demonstrated by their poor response to your displays of vulnerability.  

Another thing I have trouble disclosing is anxiety about being rejected.  This applies more to romantic partners, but can also apply to friendships.  It seems OK to confess to a friend that I have anxiety about going to the dentist etc., but if I say to my friend, "I'm worried that you'll lose interest in our friendship and drift away" then that's just awkward.  Disclosing to someone that you are afraid that they will reject you or leave you (whether a friend or a lover) seems to put a lot of pressure on them to stay in the friendship/relationship.  But it's also honest, right?  If my biggest fear in a friendship/relationship is that the other person will lose interest in me and walk away, then it would be honest and vulnerable of me to tell them that, but it would also be very awkward and make the friendship/relationship weird.  See what I'm saying?  

One of my favorite female comedians and tv writer/actress - Whitney Cummings - has a ton of male comedian friends. She has a podcast and has talked about her codependency a lot. She said, that now, she maintains strong boundaries with both her male and female friends.

When they start launching into their problems, instead of reacting like the problem solver she is, Whitney said she just simply responds with a detached, “That sounds tough,” or “I can hear your pain.” Then she immediately shuts down the conversation with a change of topic. She will acknowledge what her friend is saying, but said she has stopped trying to fix all of her friends problems like she used to. She no longer makes herself available to her friends as their life coach or therapist. 

I urge you to try to employ the same boundary with your female friend and other female friends. Also, do you think you have any codependency traits? That may be worth exploring. Codependency is where the child learns to react to their parents emotional needs, since their parent neglects the child’s emotional needs and doesn’t provide the child with the nurturing they need as they develop. This narcissistic parent creates a codependent child through the act of emotional neglect. Something to think about anyway. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Watercolors