Women that keep their maiden name.

[primer]

23 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

 But for marriage specifically and LTR in general, if kids are off the menu why do it?

Reminds me: I told a friend if I ever got married, I would keep my last name. It has been my last name since the day I was born and it is a unique last name.

Her response was "Then why get married?"    Apparently, this friend gets married for a new last name.

 

 

[QuietRiot]

16 hours ago, primer said:

Reminds me: I told a friend if I ever got married, I would keep my last name. It has been my last name since the day I was born and it is a unique last name.

 

Interesting, there was some survey/research done  that husbands of women who chose to keep their last name were more likely to be perceived as feminine than those whose wives changed their names. A study done involving a woman's perception of her husband in regards to this very thing.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-017-0856-6

A study on the power dynamics in a marriage.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by QuietRiot

[littleblackheart]

Off topic for the thread maybe but

1 hour ago, QuietRiot said:

Interesting, there was some survey/research done  that husbands of women who chose to keep their last name were more likely to be perceived as feminine than those whose wives changed their names. A study done involving a woman's perception of her husband in regards to this very thing.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-017-0856-6

A study on the power dynamics in a marriage.

 

Not exactly. From the source:

Quote

The present research builds on existing knowledge about the marital surname tradition by examining whether a woman’s marital surname choice influences other people’s perceptions of her husband. As detailed in the following, the current research was guided by prior work pertaining to masculinity norms and power dynamics in romantic relationships. Specifically, analyses focus on ratings of the husband’s gender-typed personality traits (i.e., expressivity and instrumentality) as well as ratings of the amount of power he holds in the relationship. We also assess whether hostile sexism accounts for individual differences in ratings of the husband.

 

For the purpose of the thread, I am a woman over 40, I have 2 kids and absolutely no desire to have any more.

I don't know that it matters, but I kept my exH's surname post divorce, at my children's request, because it's their name too. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by littleblackheart

[QuietRiot]

14 minutes ago, littleblackheart said:

Off topic for the thread maybe but

Not exactly. From the source:

 

For the purpose of the thread, I am a woman over 40, I have 2 kids and absolutely no desire to have any more.

I don't know that it matters, but I kept my exH's surname post divorce, at my children's request, because it's their name too. 

Yeah, I have a lady friend that's been divorced twice, though...funnily enough, she had never had kids...but chose to not change her name back to her maiden name only because it's simply a pain in the arse to go through the process to do so. 

But, I think she'll change it should she ever get married again.

[littleblackheart]

5 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

But, I think she'll change it should she ever get married again.

Does your female friend have a problem with her maiden name ? I'm not sure about the process but I can't see how changing her name to her next husband's would be simpler to going back to her maiden name.

[jspice]

4 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Interesting, there was some survey/research done  that husbands of women who chose to keep their last name were more likely to be perceived as feminine than those whose wives changed their names. A study done involving a woman's perception of her husband in regards to this very thing.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-017-0856-6

A study on the power dynamics in a marriage.

 

What’s a feminine man?

[5x5]

5 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Interesting, there was some survey/research done  that husbands of women who chose to keep their last name were more likely to be perceived as feminine than those whose wives changed their names. A study done involving a woman's perception of her husband in regards to this very thing.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-017-0856-6

A study on the power dynamics in a marriage.

 

Form the abstract.

Quote

Within Western cultures, most women in heterosexual relationships adopt their husbands’ surnames after marriage.

LOL! While the study ignores the fact that Western culture is much more than just the United Kingdom and the United States.

Because in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Greece amongst other places women are with extremely rare exception, not allowed to change their surnames  upon marriage.

Likewise since my Italian wife has retained her own surname, that must mean that feminine men are obviously the kind of men who are like me who used to be an infantry Platoon Sergeant.

[littleblackheart]

3 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Because in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Greece amongst other places women are with extremely rare exception, not allowed to change their surnames  upon marriage

Where did you get that from? I'm serious, I'd like to see the source of that claim.

 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, jspice said:

What’s a feminine man?

A man who dares to stray out of what someone considers the "guy box" in that someone's sub-culture at that point in time as that someone perceives it.   Now if one is part of a sub-culture where women bemoan how men are not more of this or that (things which lie outside the box in their mind), well then such "feminine men" might be considered a catch or at least produce great cognitive dissonance.  

[jspice]

18 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

A man who dares to stray out of what someone considers the "guy box" in that someone's sub-culture at that point in time as that someone perceives it.   Now if one is part of a sub-culture where women bemoan how men are not more of this or that (things which lie outside the box in their mind), well then such "feminine men" might be considered a catch or at least produce great cognitive dissonance.  

Awwww SumGuy, you know the real answer is nothing THAT eloquent! 😜

[5x5]

1 hour ago, littleblackheart said:

Where did you get that from? I'm serious, I'd like to see the source of that claim.

 

First off with rare exception almost all of my wife’s relatives, are Italian citizens living in Italy. Every single female relative (all generations) of hers who is married. Retains their original surnames, as required by law there, ever since Italy became a nation state.

As for the other countries, if you use an internet search engine and put in the appropriate search terms. You will easily find what you seek.

Edited January 13, 2021 by 5x5

[SumGuy]

16 minutes ago, jspice said:

Awwww SumGuy, you know the real answer is nothing THAT eloquent! 😜

Yes indeed, have seen the term "feminine man" used mostly to try to shame or put down men who have the audacity to not behave in the way the user likes.  Likewise with the term "masculine woman."  I do find it provides much more insight into the thinking and biases of the user than any objective reality of the person being so labeled.   

In general would not care, but using such terms as "feminine man" and "masculine woman" are not necessarily harmless, as they are predicates for marking someone as "unnatural," and violence against "unnatural" people is "justified" and some even think "righteous".

In the olden' days a person would just call you a f*gg*t for having long hair as a man before they attacked you...somehow even if you won the fight you were still a f*gg*t because of your hair.  Or someone would call a woman a d*ke if she wore jeans and did not respond to sexual advances, then proceed to shove and threaten her.  At least in my direct personal experience.

[littleblackheart]

16 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

First off with rare exception almost all of my wife’s relatives, are Italian citizens living in Italy. Every single female relative (all generations) of hers who is married. Retains their original surnames, as required by law there, ever since Italy became a nation state.

As for the other countries, if you use an internet search engine and put in the appropriate search terms. You will easily find what you seek.

Got it. So basically you don't have a source to back your assertion, therefore I can safely dismiss your post for circulating unverified claims.

Going by anecdotes alone, I'm French, got married to a Brit in France, I changed my name upon marriage and nobody asked me anything. Maybe I'm a secret exception and nobody told me...

 

[primer]

5 hours ago, jspice said:

What’s a feminine man?

A man that lacks toxic masculinity. 

 

[basil67]

10 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Interesting, there was some survey/research done  that husbands of women who chose to keep their last name were more likely to be perceived as feminine than those whose wives changed their names. A study done involving a woman's perception of her husband in regards to this very thing.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-017-0856-6

A study on the power dynamics in a marriage.

 

This study interviewed only 254 women and 101 men and the abstract doesn't give details on interviewee diversity.    I'd argue that people who were progressive and/or have careers would not think this way.   Many of the women I know are professional women and wish to keep their name the same so that their work is all easily attributed to them.   Why would someone view a man as feminine if he and his wife are a successful professional couple?

[5x5]

12 hours ago, littleblackheart said:

Got it. So basically you don't have a source to back your assertion, therefore I can safely dismiss your post for circulating unverified claims.

I'm sorry you weren't able to find this information for yourself.

Quote

Time Magazine

Here Are Places Women Can't Take Their Husband's Name When They Get Married

While women in the U.S. are increasingly keeping their maiden names, that’s nothing new just across the border. In Quebec, all women have been keeping their maiden names since 1981, whether they want to or not.

Provincial law in Quebec forbids a woman from taking her husband’s surname after marriage. The rule was instated soon after the creation of the Quebec Charter of Rights, which went into effect in 1976, and is intended to extend the charter’s statement on gender equality to names.

And Quebec isn’t the only place. In Greece, a similar law requiring all women keep their maiden name was enacted in 1983 during a wave of feminist legislation.

The tradition goes back even further in France, which has had a law on the books since 1789 requiring that people not use a name besides the one given on their birth certificate. Today, women cannot legally change their surname after marriage, but both men and women can accept the other’s surname for social and colloquial purposes.

Italian women have more options. Although they cannot legally change their surname, which has been true since 1975, they have the option of tacking their husband’s surname onto their surname.

Women in the Netherlands are always identified in documents by their maiden name and can only take their husband’s name under special circumstances. Belgian law requires that one’s surname does not change after marriage.

Quote

Une femme mariée peut-elle garder son nom de famille ("nom de jeune fille") ?

Vérifié le 12 août 2020 - Direction de l'information légale et administrative (Premier ministre)

Autres cas ? Nom de famille, nom patronymique, nom d’usage, nom marital : quelle différence ? / Nom d’usage : utilisation du nom de sa femme ou de son mari

Oui, en se mariant, une femme conserve son nom de famille.

Elle n'a aucune démarche à faire.

Toutefois, le mariage permet à chaque conjoint  d'utiliser le nom de l'autre conjoint ou le double-nom : il s'agit d'un nom d'usage.

Cette démarche est volontaire.

Dans tous les cas, chaque conjoint conserve le nom inscrit sur son acte de naissance. Ce nom restera toujours inscrit sur ses papiers.

 

Quote

The Guardian

Should women change their names after marriage? Consider the Greek way

Since 1983, Greece has required women to keep their birth names for life. It's a model worth thinking about

You see, Greece enacted a law in 1983 that all women must keep their birth surname. Period. 

It was part of a major set of reforms Greece enacted in the late 1970s and early 1980s as the country emerged from a dictatorship and re-wrote its constitution and laws. Maria Karamessini was a college student at the time and took part in feminist movement campaigns for gender equality. As she tells it:

For women, it was an emancipation to keep our own names after marriage. Greece had the most progressive laws in Europe in 1983, and not only for the last names of women. Our feminist movement changed mentalities, but it was gradual. We went from a very traditional society with traditional gender roles.

For the past 30 years, Greece has been a test case for what society would be like if women never changed their last names. It offers a very different model from how women in Britain and America have come to think about this debate. The conclusion most feminists come to is that the ideal is for women to have the ability to chose what they want and men to go along with it. But as studies have shown (or just a casual look around your circle of friends), many women still adopt their husband's name, even when they have other options. In short, societal norms and pressure are hard to alter.

 

Quote

Wikipedia

Maiden and married names

Spanish-speaking world

Spouses keep their original surnames. Following Spanish naming customs, a person's name consists of a given name (simple or composite) followed by two family names (surnames), the father's and the mother's. Any children whom a couple have together, take both first-surnames, so if "José Gómez Hevia" and "María Reyes García" had a child named "Andrés", the resulting name would be "Andrés Gómez Reyes".

France

In France, by executive decision since 2011[58] and by law since 2013,[59] any married person may officially use their spouse's name as a common name by substituting or compounding it to their own. Before this it was common for married women to use their husband's name in everyday life but this had no legal recognition.

A common name does not replace a person's family name as written on their birth certificate.

Greece

Since 1983, when Greece adopted a new marriage law which guaranteed gender equality between the spouses,[63] women in Greece are required to keep their birth names for their whole lives.[64]

Italy

Spouses keep their original surnames. According to the Italian Civil Code (article 143 bis), a woman who marries keeps her surname and has the option of adding her husband's surname after hers. Non-Italian citizens getting married in Italy will not have their surname changed in Italy. However, brides or grooms can request their surname change in their home country.[65]

Netherlands

In the Netherlands, persons who have been married in the Netherlands or entered into a registered partnership will remain registered under their birth name.

China

Traditionally, a married woman keeps her name unchanged, without adopting her husband's surname.[69]

Korea

Traditionally, Korean women keep their family names after their marriage, while their children take the father's surname. Korea used to be relatively gender equal as of inheritance and familial duties up until at least the late 17th century. Often, the genealogy books of the families would keep in track of the daughters and their spouses and offsprings too. Hence women to keep their maiden name was the norm and they were considered to be part of the family even after marriage. In the premodern, people were extremely conscious of familial values and their own family identities. Korean women keep their surnames after marriage based on traditional reasoning that it is what they inherited from their parents and ancestors.[75] Colloquially, Koreans consider the name of an individual as a singular entity, and changing the family name syllable would make the name sound strange with the other syllables of the given name. Nowadays, women still keep their names after marriage. The children could go by either parent's surname but it is still vastly more customary to go by the father's surname.

Québec

The custom in Québec was similar to the one in France until 1981. Women would traditionally go by their husband's surname in daily life, but their maiden name remained their legal name.[8] Since the passage of a 1981 provincial law intended to promote gender equality, as outlined in the Québec Charter of Rights, no change may be made to a person's name without the authorization of the registrar of civil status or the authorization of the court. Newlyweds who wish to change their names upon marriage must therefore go through the same procedure as those changing their names for other reasons. The registrar of civil status may authorize a name change if:

the name the person generally uses does not correspond to the name on their birth certificate,

the name is of foreign origin or too difficult to pronounce or write in its original form, or

the name invites ridicule or has become infamous.[9]

This law does not make it legal for a woman to change her name immediately upon marriage, as marriage is not listed among the reasons for a name change.[10]

To help you in the future, I encourage you to try using any of the following search engines.

https://www.qwant.com/?l=fr

https://www.orange.fr/portail

https://www.lilo.org

https://www.google.com/

Good luck.

That said on dating and finding some women who want to have children in their forties, I think that women like that are best avoided going forward.

[littleblackheart]

1 hour ago, 5x5 said:

I'm sorry you weren't able to find this information for yourself.

 

 

To help you in the future, I encourage you to try using any of the following search engines.

https://www.qwant.com/?l=fr

https://www.orange.fr/portail

https://www.lilo.org

https://www.google.com/

Good luck.

That said on dating and finding some women who want to have children in their forties, I think that women like that are best avoided going forward.

Whoever makes the claim has to back it up in my world. Apparently Loveshack gives you a 14h window in which to provide proper references. That's generous of them.

Is there nothing in the new revamped rules about posting stuff in a language that not everyone might be proficient in? Also very generous of them. 

In any case. Your passport and ID hold both names - your maiden name and your spousal name (voluntary process, not an exception).

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F868?lang=en

From the source (they have a handy translator tool that gives info in English too, for future reference)

Quote

It is possible to use the name of one's husband or wife, regardless of gender. We're talking about usage name.. Use of a usage name is optional and not automatic. However, if the spouse indicates that he or she wants to use this name, the authorities must use it. This name can be entered on the identity card and passport.

What you meant is that women keep their maiden name by law. What I meant was that I changed my name of use, by choice, also by law, and authorities have to use it. They are both surnames.

 

On the bolded, it's a personal choice.

There still are plenty of men over 40 who do want children or a shot at a second family. Let them find those women over 40 who also want them so everyone can have their happy ever after. 

I wouldn't want to 'date' someone who wants (more) kids regardless of age. As a parent I have no prejudices 'dating' a childless guy over 40 though given the choice, I'd take a good father who is involved in their kids' lives.

Edited January 14, 2021 by littleblackheart

[lovebooks]

On 1/13/2021 at 6:40 AM, littleblackheart said:

Off topic for the thread maybe but

Not exactly. From the source:

 

For the purpose of the thread, I am a woman over 40, I have 2 kids and absolutely no desire to have any more.

I don't know that it matters, but I kept my exH's surname post divorce, at my children's request, because it's their name too. 

I hyphenated my maiden and married last names.  Post divorce it’s still the same.

[littleblackheart]

1 hour ago, lovebooks said:

I hyphenated my maiden and married last names.  Post divorce it’s still the same.

Well thought out 🙂.

I went the traditional route for a specific reason to do with his complicated family history but don't really regret it. Then I started my pro life with my married name, it just seemed petty to revert back.

[Prudence V]

When I first married, I was pleased to dump my birth surname (sorry, but I detest the term “maiden name”) as it as always mispronounced, I always needed to spell it, it was long and unwieldy and I felt more affinity to my H than to my father at that point. When I divorced, I kept that name for reasons of convenience, and because reverting to my birth surname seemed like a regression to someone I’d long left behind. 
 

When I remarried, I was pleased to take my partner’s name because it signalled another phase in my life. As a professional person, I never felt that that inconvenienced me. I do still have some documents / accounts in my former name that I haven’t ported to my new name (“new” being more than a decade now... 😂) yet but my home country allows me to use any surname I’ve legally had the right to use, through birth, marriage or deed poll change, so there’s no pressure to change it. 

[Wiseman2]

Kamala Harris.

[basil67]

@Wiseman2 and your point is?

[mrs rubble]

I took my husbands surname in my first marriage, when I divorced I reverted back to my maiden name. When I married my second husband, I kept my maiden name, as I didn't want to change all my documents etc again. I do use my husbands name for bookings, club memberships and things like that.

[Ellener]

On 1/13/2021 at 10:30 AM, littleblackheart said:

Where did you get that from? I'm serious, I'd like to see the source of that claim.

 

https://time.com/3940094/maiden-married-names-countries/ 

I have to confess I never wanted to take my husband's name, then when we divorced I was too lazy to change all my documents!

Edited January 20, 2021 by Ellener
clarification

[littleblackheart]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

https://time.com/3940094/maiden-married-names-countries/ 

I have to confess I never wanted to take my husband's name, then when we divorced I was too lazy to change all my documents!

I'd already done the research last week, but thanks for the belated link anyway! 🙂

I actually like having my kids' name - makes me feel closer to them as a mother. 🙂

But hey, to each their own!

Edited January 20, 2021 by littleblackheart
Update