[UPDATE] Fight Fire With Fire? or Gentle Douse of Water?

[poppyfields]

19 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Apologies for the brain fart @poppyfields. I screwed up the genders, but the same point still applies. Sorry about that. 

 

No worries, I figured it out, thnx for chiming in...

Was it you who criticized me (kindly) on my thread about our neighbors for the way I handled that? 

You were right!  Screw that.  And thanks elaine, you're right too.

I'm gonna think on it but Brooklyn is looking mighty fine right now.  

Edited January 17, 2021 by poppyfields

[Watercolors]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

No worries, I figured it out, thnx for chiming in...

Was it you who criticized me a bit (kindly) on my thread about our neighbors for the way I handled that? 

You were right!  Screw that.  And thanks elaine, you're right too.

I'm gonna think on it but Brooklyn is looking mighty fine right now.  

Just to motivate you a little poppyfields! No sleep til Brooklyn [law school!]
 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Watercolors

[poppyfields]

WC, my mum died in 2014, may she RIP.

We sort of made amends at the end, but damage was done. Too late to unring that bell. 

[chillii]

2 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Tbh and knowing myself, if he were always calm, cool, collected, in a relationship, I might find that boring and unchallenging.  Too fatherly (like my own father was).  

When he gets angry and emotionally expresses, it does cause me to respect him in a way, that he's not acquiescing to me, catering to my moods and being a doormat.

But on the other hand, it causes quite a lot of anguish for me because I'm a good, loyal girlfriend and I always try to have his back.  Which he sometimes misinterprets and then gets angry.  

This is probably one for the shrinks but growing up my dad was always calm cool, patient, while my mom was over-reactive, emotional, and often felt I was being disrespectful.

For example, when I was 8, I was reading a book she disapproved of (Rosemary's Baby), I couldn't stop reading and she took it away and tossed it in the garbage.  Told me in an angry way she did not want me reading it. Period.  

I fetched it from the garbage anyway, and continued reading.  She discovered from our neighbor I did that, and omg, she punished me so bad for that, telling me to NEVER disrespect her like that again!

Whereas my dad would have calmly sat me down and explained why I was too young to be reading it.  

Just one example, there were many many others. 

Needless to say, I walked on eggshells with my mom forever striving to gain her approval.  

So now as an adult I bring those two dichotomies to my relationships and torn between wanting a man to be calm and patient like my dad BUT feeling attraction to emotional, reactive men like my mom.

I'm f*cked. 

Thanks for your help though, it's causing me to have a good think about things. 

I may be better off alone, don't know.  

I applied to and got accepted to Brooklyn Law School last year, but put it off to focus on our relationship and then covid happened.

May have a rethink about that as well. 

 

 

 

Yeah , lotta stuff here you even admitted yourself , all this other bs of "all so logically"  over analyzing and explaining - ahh she's looking for strength and calm and bs, my arse . Women do s*** test , they also just poke when they're a bit off colour , say black when they mean white , and subconsciously don't mind a bit of a spa now and then and all kinds of things. Between the lines you've basically even said all that yourself, two people can often both be a bit that way too  . l don't know two many women that would get much joy out of poking away and him not poking back , for too long , most would end up walking all over him and you see that all the time. But there's also times to brush it off you know she's feeling a bit off or it was about something that still bugging her and all kinds of things too.  One day my woman says to me , ha, you didn't start saying fk fk fk , l know you just needed it off your chest baby, she says thx baby yep , l did. Gets her days l get mine , there's differences and times.  Some other time or thing , way, we might get into a bit of a tousle bc l know it's just bs and l'm sick of that particular bs, or vise verse she'll fire back . You both get your moods and days and crap, no ones all logical and perfect 24 7 God yawning with boredom at the thought of it.

You might poke a lot more than you admit to yourself or see too, but he'll see all that, he might be fed up with it, Or maybe he does fire up too easily people often can't see themselves so we can't really tell wth really. With us we get along really really well mostly and really get each other so even if we do get a bit noisy narky snappy yelly, it doesn't mean much we get it.  But if your always getting nasty with each other or bad fights and tempers or it's one sided or a million other things and problems between you ,  you just aren't getting along or someones got problems in it.

As far as the amount of fire haha , with us that's all sorta auto these days, sometimes l'll get pissed and she'll just go about her stuff with a bit of a chuckle underneath , knows l'm just talking shyt,  bad hair day and same with her vise versa too , other things she;ll come at me and fire up , l love that side of her actually and l need it haha. She does too sometimes. l love our ways really and l know she does too. She doesn't have to tip toe round and pretend neither do l . She's part Russian l'm part French so not everythings gonna be all nicely logical calm and boring haha.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by chillii

[Watercolors]

Just now, poppyfields said:

WC, my mum died in 2014, may she RIP.

We sort of made amends at the end, but damage was done. Too late to unring that bell. 

Sorry for your loss. Not too late to ring that bell. You can get closure and healing through your therapist. Even a grief counselor with a social work background can help you achieve that closure. Find a way to heal from that relationship. It took me 25 years to heal from my relationship with my father but I finally did, after he died over 30 years ago. 

[poppyfields]

chillii, I'm glad the dynamic you've got with your girlfriend works for you. 👍

Me?  At this point, I really do think I want to go to law school, become a criminal defense attorney (my dream) and focus on myself for awhile.  I'm strongly considering it again, I've already been accepted, I've got the tuition.  

I gave up another job, overseas, for him too.  To appease him, make him happy.  It's how my parent's marriage was. 

Maybe in 10 years, I'll think about relationships again.  Who knows.  

I just wrote in another thread that relationships are supposed to "enhance" our already happy and fulfilled life, not BE our life. 

I've come to the sad conclusion my current one is not. 

Thanks everyone, this thread was extremely helpful and enlightening!😂

I will let y'all know what happens.

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

Cool tune WC.  Certainly appropriate!  😆

A couple of weeks ago, I watched "Judy" about Judy Garland's last months performing in London.  If you watch only for Rene Zellweger's performance, it's worth it!  She won the Oscar for Best Actress last year. 

Anyway, she sang "By Myself" which resonates with me and tbh have not been able to stop thinking about since.

>>I'll go, I'll go, I'll go my way by myself
This is the end of romance
I'll go my way by myself, love is only a dance

I'll try to apply myself and teach my heart how to sing
I'll go my way by myself like a bird on the wing
I'll face the unknown, I'll build a world of my own
No one knows better than I myself, I'm by myself alone

I'm sure that love's an overrated past time
It's the last time I'll ever be anything but fancy free
For love is just a junior high version… a one way excursion
I'm sure that I am old enough to fly alone

And I'll face the unknown, I'll build a world of my own
No one knows better than I myself
I'm by myself alone, I'll go, I'll go by myself alone<<

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[Watercolors]

31 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I gave up another job, overseas, for him too.  To appease him, make him happy.  It's how my parent's marriage was. 

Poppy, lesson learned right? Never, EVER give up your life's goals or dreams for another person. 

My dad forced my mom and my siblings and I to leave our city where our lives were flourishing, because he was 'bored' with his job and wanted a better job an to move back to his hometown. His decision ruined our lives, and made my mom suicidal for years afterward. It literally ruined their marriage due to the resentment that built up between them. 

Don't make that mistake with yourself and your fiance. Do not give up your career goals now for your fiance. Don't let him corner you with the standard passive aggressive "it's me or your career/law school" speech again. He talked you out of your overseas job because you let him. Don't let him talk you out of your law school dreams now. Just don't. It's not worth the sacrifice. 

[Blind-Sided]

I have never put up with people who will lash out like a hurt kid.  If someone says something, or does something hurtful on purpose... they will no longer be in my life.  PERIOD !!!  I don't put up with that crap.  And generally, that will come out early on while dating.  I think it's why it was easy to move on from my exW after being together for 20 years.  After I realized there was no fixing things... and she got mean to both me and her oldest daughter... the paperwork couldn't come fast enough.  Even now... when she drops of the kids... it's the same emotion as if a stranger came to the house, and handed me mail that was wrongly delivered.

[poppyfields]

14 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Poppy, lesson learned right? Never, EVER give up your life's goals or dreams for another person. 

My dad forced my mom and my siblings and I to leave our city where our lives were flourishing, because he was 'bored' with his job and wanted a better job an to move back to his hometown. His decision ruined our lives, and made my mom suicidal for years afterward. It literally ruined their marriage due to the resentment that built up between them. 

Don't make that mistake with yourself and your fiance. Do not give up your career goals now for your fiance. Don't let him corner you with the standard passive aggressive "it's me or your career/law school" speech again. He talked you out of your overseas job because you let him. Don't let him talk you out of your law school dreams now. Just don't. It's not worth the sacrifice. 

I know WC.  He didn't exactly talk me out of it but said if I went, we were done.  He did not speak to me the entire time I was there, interviewing etc.

I posted about it on another forum I was a member of at the time, and I recently read that thread again.  

I was literally cringing!  Asking myself what was I thinking??  Who is (was) that person?  Talking about ME! 

Apparently I wasn't thinking, not straight anyway, and folks on the forum were making me feel guilty too.

Life's a changin...

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

WC, changing subjects for a sec, how u feeling?  Has your sense of taste and smell returned? 

[Watercolors]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

WC, changing subjects for a sec, how u feeling?  Has your sense of taste and smell returned? 

I'll update my Covid thread so as not to hijack this one. 

9 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

He didn't exactly talk me out of it but said if I went, we were done.  He did not speak to me the entire time I was there, interviewing etc.

And you got engaged to this guy?! Ok, you have enough to reflect on. Just don't let him or anyone else dictate your path for you. We get one life. Don't let anyone drag you off the path you're meant to follow. 

[poppyfields]

19 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

And you got engaged to this guy?! Ok, you have enough to reflect on. Just don't let him or anyone else dictate your path for you. We get one life. Don't let anyone drag you off the path you're meant to follow. 

Well, yeah I guess I did.  We went through "'something" in around Sept/Oct, talked it out after which I agreed to marry him, remember?..

I recall you chiming in, can't remember which thread it was.

My only explanation - temporary insanity.  M. Scott Peck wrote about it in "A Roadless Traveled."

That being in love is a sort of temporary insanity.  

Solid advice WC, you're right, gonna follow it.

Tnx again.  

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[Trail Blazer]

7 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Hey guys, general question I'd like opinions on.

When your partner does something intentionally hurtful, maybe because they felt hurt by something you did (unintentionally), but instead of discussing like a rational mature adult, they punish you by angrily lashing out or acting out, do you believe in standing up for yourself and expressing anger back? 

Essentially fighting fire with fire? 

OR wouid a calm cool approach (gentle douse a water) be better to change the angry dynamic and extinguish the fire? 

I'm torn on what the correct approach is. 

Thanks guys. 

 

The short answer is no.

I don't believe in being a doormat at all.  However, I believe that there is always a way to convey how you feel without lashing out in anger.

I feel that if your fiancè is not receptive to the cool and calm approach, then there's bigger issues at play.  In my opinion, anyone who needs to be screamed at in order to "get it" has bigger issues.

Having said that, he may have a totally different perspective to the whole situation.  He may perceive his behavior as justifiable for x,y, z reasons.  Has he ever tried to discuss how he feels in a rational manner and you've brushed him off?

My opinion is very general, but it's mine personally; I feel that yelling and shouting is very toxic.  I don't think it's healthy and natural at all.  Call me boring, but the way I see it, diplomacy wasn't developed with the intention of being successful to those only with the loudest voices.

If a man repeatedly refuses to see reason, if he repeatedly refuses to indulge your feelings in a reasonable manner, if he's showing no intention to meet you half way (even if both yours and his view of middle ground isn't the same), then it's time to re-evaluate the relationship.

You don't fight fire with fire, you extinguish fire.  If that means that the relationship flame goes out with it, then so be it.  You can't change people, you shouldn't have to change people.  However, you should know when it's time to let them go.

Only you will know when that time is.  

[Lotsgoingon]

You know: for a wise marriage, you don't have to fight to ignore problems, you don't have to put your head in the sand, you want to feel much more at peace about things. 

[Ruby Slippers]

Wow, I didn't know the situation was so dire. I always got the impression you and he were pretty solid.

It does sound off that he's been unsupportive of your aspirations. I've had my issues in love, but I've never felt a man was trying to hold me back or discourage me from realizing my potential for his own reasons. 

If he's not the right guy for you, I support you all the way in whatever direction you take. 

[Lotsgoingon]

You're in the tough zone, poppy. It's when you've talked about marriage and then ... something comes up ... and you suddenly  have some unresolved problems ... so easy to talk yourself into going forward ... so easy .... The ego doesn't want to admit "defeat," that things did not work out.

Hang in there. Throw out and ignore any sense of shame or failure or defeat or any feeling other than you are 100 percent confident that getting married is the best step you can take ... 

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Wow, I didn't know the situation was so dire. I always got the impression you and he were pretty solid.

It does sound off that he's been unsupportive of your aspirations. I've had my issues in love, but I've never felt a man was trying to hold me back or discourage me from realizing my potential for his own reasons. 

If he's not the right guy for you, I support you all the way in whatever direction you take. 

Hi Ruby, that's because I do what I always do, or have a tendency to do, shove stuff down and paint the rosiest picture possible.  A form of denial possibly.  I don't know.

I still haven't decided what to do yet.  Right now I still feel pissed.   But I know we need to talk and something has to change.  

He is a good man, he treats me well. He doesn't hold me back, in fact he supports my going to law school, it was my choice to wait. 

The job overseas, well he said he just couldn't handle the distance which makes sense.  Not sure I would have wanted to either.  

And he doesn't verbally abuse like nasty name calling or anything like that.  He just gets angry over stupid stuff, it doesn't even have to be at me  necessarily but it brings me down. 

He does snap and lash out at me sometimes though like today.  And, well, he picked the wrong day to do it.

Because we are engaged, I'm taking these incidents more seriously because marriage IS serious, a commitment like this IS serious and I want to be sure I'm doing the right thing. 

I hope that makes sense.  This thread has been so helpful, thank you all so much.

I'll keep you posted on what happens.  

Nite.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Hang in there. Throw out and ignore any sense of shame or failure or defeat or any feeling other than you are 100 percent confident that getting married is the best step you can take ... 

Hi Lots, thnx. This is exactly what I'm doing or trying to do.  

It helps to talk it out with those who aren't close to the situation, those who can be more objective. 

Like all of you.  It helps a lot!  

 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[chillii]

7 hours ago, poppyfields said:

chillii, I'm glad the dynamic you've got with your girlfriend works for you. 👍

Me?  At this point, I really do think I want to go to law school, become a criminal defense attorney (my dream) and focus on myself for awhile.  I'm strongly considering it again, I've already been accepted, I've got the tuition.  

I gave up another job, overseas, for him too.  To appease him, make him happy.  It's how my parent's marriage was. 

Maybe in 10 years, I'll think about relationships again.  Who knows.  

I just wrote in another thread that relationships are supposed to "enhance" our already happy and fulfilled life, not BE our life. 

I've come to the sad conclusion my current one is not. 

Thanks everyone, this thread was extremely helpful and enlightening!

I will let y'all know what happens.

 

Hey poppy. Yeah hard to tell really just reading stuff you've said since though l mean from your angle it sounds like he is losing it too much too often , sounds like it . We're nothing like that we're just naturally up and down and passionate and fiery personalities it's never a problem we don't clash or get nasty - we just ahhhh, express ourselves haha.😂

l mean he sounds supportive and in your corner in many levels , l'd really have a heart to heart about things first of all but then that depends too on how you feel about the relationship these days. He could have a bug up his arse lately for some reason though or God knows , might not even realize it. But if you still want this , see long term have the love then hell yeah , talk about it all first of all, could be something goin on with him .

[poppyfields]

16 minutes ago, chillii said:

Hey poppy. Yeah hard to tell really just reading stuff you've said since though l mean from your angle it sounds like he is losing it too much too often , sounds like it . We're nothing like that we're just naturally up and down and passionate and fiery personalities it's never a problem we don't clash or get nasty - we just ahhhh, express ourselves haha.😂

l mean he sounds supportive and in your corner in many levels , l'd really have a heart to heart about things first of all but then that depends too on how you feel about the relationship these days. He could have a bug up his arse lately for some reason though or God knows , might not even realize it. But if you still want this , see long term have the love then hell yeah , talk about it all first of all, could be something goin on with him .

Thanks chillii, yeah we will talk.  I don't know what's gotten into me, but I'm not messin around with this.  

My nature is typically so easy going, it takes A LOT to set me off.

So as I said in another thread, not sure if you read it, I typically let his rants (not at me) roll off.  

And I'm typically the first to make peace after an argument which are not that often and I've been fine with that. 

But I dunno, maybe I'm changing cause today, well I just got pissed.  So I started this thread, cause I really just wanted to lash back (fight fire with fire) but didn't know if that was the right thing. 

I feel emotionally exhausted tbh.  Drained. 

Good luck to you and your girlfriend!  Sounds like you've met your perfect match! 😍

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[Fletch Lives]

Saying you are sorry works wonders.

See..........I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way!

Edited January 18, 2021 by Fletch Lives

[dramafreezone]

19 hours ago, Watercolors said:

 

I think you need to examine this relationship and whether or not you're wiling to marry a guy who isn't going to change for you (or anyone). He is who he is. He wants to be the passive aggressive dominate person in this relationship. Your feelings don't matter to him in the way that you deserve them to. 

 

Call me crazy, but you shouldn't have to change a guy, or a woman.  It's just a faulty premise to think you can change anyone or to expect him to change if he "loves you enough."  Any major change has to be because that's what that person wants for themselves.

Can the guy learn to pick up his underwear off the floor and stop chewing with his mouth open, yes.  People can change on the margins, small things.   Mostly though I think you have to pretty much take the person as they are.  People are not beat up cars that you fix into something amazing.  That never works.

Edited January 18, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Watercolors]

2 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Call me crazy, but you shouldn't have to change a guy, or a woman.  It's just a faulty premise to think you can change anyone or to expect him to change if he "loves you enough."  Any major change has to be because that's what that person wants for themselves.

Can the guy learn to pick up his underwear off the floor and stop chewing with his mouth open, yes.  People can change on the margins, small things.   Mostly though I think you have to pretty much take the person as they are.  People are not beat up cars that you fix into something amazing.  That never works.

I agree with you dramafreezone that people can't/won't change for other people; but, they have to change for themselves.

My statement is meant more of a warning to poppy, not to stay with her fiance if she thinks there's a chance he will change for her - if she thinks by staying, he'll learn to respect her feelings more than he does now.

But clearly, he won't change. He gave poppy an ultimatum to stay with him and turn down her overseas job offer in the past, or take the overseas job offer and lose him. Not a good guy. Ultimatums are a form of manipulation, and are a power play, that is unfair to the partner. 

[poppyfields]

I agree DFZ.  I don't believe in changing our partner, changing their fundamental nature.

However I do believe we can change how we choose to interact with our partners. Through communication and mutual compromise.  

Before I used to let shyt roll off, I tuned it out, remain detached.

But marriage is serious business, no more of this "remain detached" or "one day at a time" bs.

I'm changing, growing.  I want more for myself.

There's so much I need to sort through, that I haven't shared here.  

But thanks for listening! It's been incredibly helpful. 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields