[UPDATE] Fight Fire With Fire? or Gentle Douse of Water?

[poppyfields]

4 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

I agree with you dramafreezone that people can't/won't change for other people; but, they have to change for themselves.

My statement is meant more of a warning to poppy, not to stay with her fiance if she thinks there's a chance he will change for her - if she thinks by staying, he'll learn to respect her feelings more than he does now.

But clearly, he won't change. He gave poppy an ultimatum to stay with him and turn down her overseas job offer in the past, or take the overseas job offer and lose him. Not a good guy. Ultimatums are a form of manipulation, and are a power play, that is unfair to the partner. 

Re the overseas job, that's not quite how it went down WC, but doesn't matter.  You make excellent points.  As has everyone.

I'm staying here one more day then going home.  We will talk and make some hard decisions.

As I said, I'm not messin around with this, it's the rest of my life!   

[Watercolors]

21 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Re the overseas job, that's not quite how it went down WC, but doesn't matter.  You make excellent points.  As has everyone.

I'm staying here one more day then going home.  We will talk and make some hard decisions.

As I said, I'm not messin around with this, it's the rest of my life!   

Good luck when you return to your fiance tomorrow. Let us know what happens. It's good that you have a safe place (your brother's) to go to. 

[poppyfields]

2 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Good luck when you return to your fiance tomorrow. Let us know what happens. It's good that you have a safe place (your brother's) to go to. 

Thnx WC.  He lives on the coast of the Pacific, I could stay here forever! ❤️

[Watercolors]

20 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Thnx WC.  He lives on the coast of the Pacific, I could stay here forever! ❤️

Um, I think that's a SIGN. You could go to law school in your brother's city and live with him until you found your own place. Just sayin'! Possibilities galore! 

[FMW]

18 hours ago, poppyfields said:

He didn't exactly talk me out of it but said if I went, we were done.  He did not speak to me the entire time I was there, interviewing etc.

 

12 hours ago, poppyfields said:

He doesn't hold me back, in fact he supports my going to law school, it was my choice to wait. 

So does he only support you going to law school if it's local?  Do you have a good law school close to you if that's the case?

Given the way you describe the point you're at in your relationship at this moment, with all the issues, certainly do NOT get married unless you're certain things have been resolved.  And if your dream really is to be a criminal attorney, then start working on making that happen (go to law school).  It sounds like you're already starting to resent him for holding you back, and resentment will kill a relationship/marriage with no hope for resurrection. 

[poppyfields]

29 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Um, I think that's a SIGN. You could go to law school in your brother's city and live with him until you found your own place. Just sayin'! Possibilities galore! 

Lol, it's not that easy WC, but a nice thought!  There is UCLA Law School, but I'd have to apply and get accepted, which is not a given. Law schools are extremely competitive! 

My comment about living on the beach forever was sort of tongue-in-cheek.  The ocean brings me a sense of peace, being a water sign and all. 

Anyway, I didn't apply there, I've been wanting to leave Cali and move back to NY which is where I was born and raised, I miss it! 

I don't think my brother and his wife would want me there full time anyway but again a nice thought. 

I will get a small flat close to campus, a part time job, and complete the curriculum in four years.  

Then work for public defender's office and eventually on my own, taking the cases I want to, defending the wrongfully accused which happens a lot around here, but that's an entirely different thread!  

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by poppyfields

[Watercolors]

14 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Lol, it's not that easy WC, but a nice thought!  There is UCLA Law School, but I'd have to apply and get accepted, which is not a given. Law schools are extremely competitive! 

My comment about living on the beach forever was sort of tongue-in-cheek.  The ocean brings me a sense of peace, being a water sign and all. 

Anyway, I didn't apply there, I've been wanting to leave Cali and move back to NY which is where I was born and raised, I miss it! 

I don't think my brother and his wife would want me there full time anyway but again a nice thought. 

I will get a small flat close to campus, a part time job, and complete the curriculum in four years.  

Then work for public defender's office and eventually on my own, taking the cases I want to, defending the wrongfully accused which happens a lot around here, but that's an entirely different thread!  

 

Sounds like a great plan! 

[poppyfields]

1 minute ago, Watercolors said:

Sounds like a great plan! 

I know right?  My fiance said he'd be on board with that, if it was something I really wanted.  

New York is quite different from 6000 miles away in a different country!  He could visit every few weeks, neither of us have a problem with that type of distance. 

Earlier last year he was gone for six months, first New York, then northern Cali.  

I don't know.  I really need to think about this. FMW, you are right, although resent might be the wrong word.  

I am not even sure what the right word is, all I know is after speaking to me yesterday the way he did, when all I was doing was trying to help (he had an issue with his estranged father), it sparked something in me.  Not even sure why when all the other times, I tried to understand and shake it off.

 

 

[Watercolors]

26 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

My fiance said he'd be on board with that, if it was something I really wanted.  

Considering how he's stalwarted you in the past during your relationship, from pursuing things like your job overseas, I'd take his "promise" with a huge grain of salt. 

Remember, words are but wind, poppy. Don't take anything he says at face value when it comes to you pursuing law school etc. He doesn't get to call the shots for you. Don't let him. 

Don't sacrifice yourself for him. That's not a health relationship if you do. 

[Weezy1973]

@poppyfields your life would be a lot easier if you were attracted to men like your father instead of like your mother.

Alas it isn’t so...

[FMW]

Maybe this is one of those situations that could be helped with "taking a break".  I know everyone says that's just a way to ease into a full breakup, but sometimes we just need to clear our heads for a bit to be able to think clearly about an issue.

If you live together that will of course be difficult, meaning you either stay with a friend or find a reasonably priced monthly rental.  Unless you've just been in complete denial all along, what you've posted about him and your relationship previously makes it seem like it would be an abrupt ending if you just decided right now to cut things off permanently. 

No one should ever stay in a situation that's not good for them, but quick decisions on major issues make me uncomfortable.  Of course I'm the one who stayed in a long marriage way past its expiration date, so there's that.

Only you know what the whole story has been and whether you should give him another chance.    

[Watercolors]

10 minutes ago, FMW said:

No one should ever stay in a situation that's not good for them, but quick decisions on major issues make me uncomfortable.

Well I think every case is different as far as ending things abruptly. Sometimes, that's required for safety reasons when there's physical abuse. Emotional abuse is just as caustic, but that can be dealt with differently than with physical abuse. 

 

[FMW]

17 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

Sometimes, that's required for safety reasons

Of course, but my comment was about @poppyfields , not a blanket statement. Unless I missed something, safety doesn't seem to be an issue. 

Dumping, NC and blocking are ubiquitous responses to relationship issues here on LS, but I think often that's an overly dramatic response to the issues presented.  

[Watercolors]

13 minutes ago, FMW said:

Of course, but my comment was about @poppyfields , not a blanket statement. Unless I missed something, safety doesn't seem to be an issue. 

Dumping, NC and blocking are ubiquitous responses to relationship issues here on LS, but I think often that's an overly dramatic response to the issues presented.  

Ah, I misinterpreted your post as a blanket statement. So, my response was a blanket statement. 

I don't know if poppy will breakup with her fiance tout sweet b/c they've been together for three years. But I hope she makes the best decision for herself and if that means they go long distance so that she can start law school this summer in Brooklyn, hopefully, her fiance will support her through his actions and not try to guilt trip poppy in order to manipulate her. 

[Wiseman2]

I think neither. Sweeping it under the rug and 'making nice' nor escalating into a petty tat for tat argument.

Say your piece, stand up for yourself, but stay in your own lane so there's room for other people's thoughts/feelings.

[poppyfields]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

I think neither. Sweeping it under the rug and 'making nice' nor escalating into a petty tat for tat argument.

Say your piece, stand up for yourself, but stay in your own lane so there's room for other people's thoughts/feelings.

Thanks Wiseman, that's excellent advice -- saying my piece then giving room for their thoughts and feelings.  Instead of running off as I have a tendency to do. 

It's a tough balance but will try that going forward. 

Thank you! 

Edited January 19, 2021 by poppyfields

[Watercolors]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

I think neither. Sweeping it under the rug and 'making nice' nor escalating into a petty tat for tat argument.

Say your piece, stand up for yourself, but stay in your own lane so there's room for other people's thoughts/feelings.

While that is great advice it’s moot when you are dealing with a person who is an emotional manipulator. In her case, poppy’s boyfriend resorts to emotional manipulation to coerce her into changing her major life decisions to accommodate him. So, poppy following your advice, with a NORMAL person who has no motive to emotionally manipulate her, is great.

However, knowing poppy’s boyfriend to be someone who is passive aggressive, who bulldozes poppy emotionally, it’s unrealistic to advise poppy to give him ANY room to voice his opinion. He’s already made it clear to poppy, that it’s his way or the highway. Poppy accommodates her fiancé because she has low self-esteem (just my observation poppy, don’t take it personally) and wants to please him to avoid conflict. 
. 

[poppyfields]

26 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

While that is great advice it’s moot when you are dealing with a person who is an emotional manipulator. In her case, poppy’s boyfriend resorts to emotional manipulation to coerce her into changing her major life decisions to accommodate him. So, poppy following your advice, with a NORMAL person who has no motive to emotionally manipulate her, is great.

However, knowing poppy’s boyfriend to be someone who is passive aggressive, who bulldozes poppy emotionally, it’s unrealistic to advise poppy to give him ANY room to voice his opinion. He’s already made it clear to poppy, that it’s his way or the highway. Poppy accommodates her fiancé because she has low self-esteem (just my observation poppy, don’t take it personally) and wants to please him to avoid conflict. 
. 

Hi WC, what you've written is rather extreme and not entirely correct, but you are correct that I do have issues that I'm working to resolve.

A work in progress. Striving to improve. 

I feel better today and in a better position to say my piece rationally and with a clear head. 

Thanks again and will update soon.  

[Gaeta]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:08 PM, poppyfields said:

When he gets angry and emotionally expresses, it does cause me to respect him in a way, that he's not acquiescing to me, catering to my moods and being a doormat.

I am sorry you are going through this. 

A confident man doesn't need to get angry or dramatic to be respected, it's an association your brain needs to break down. Actually the ones that resort to being angry and dramatic are weak thefore the need to raise their voice, get angry, create drama. I also see your fiancé as being passive agressive and it's important when those episodes come up you do not participate to those conversations and don't try to ease things. You simply say I am not participating to this conversation and you go about your business. 

Would he be wiling to try pre-marital couples counseling? 

[Miss Spider]

Sorry to hear about this, poppy 😔

[poppyfields]

5 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I am sorry you are going through this. 

A confident man doesn't need to get angry or dramatic to be respected, it's an association your brain needs to break down. Actually the ones that resort to being angry and dramatic are weak thefore the need to raise their voice, get angry, create drama. I also see your fiancé as being passive agressive and it's important when those episodes come up you do not participate to those conversations and don't try to ease things. You simply say I am not participating to this conversation and you go about your business. 

Would he be wiling to try pre-marital couples counseling? 

Thank you Gaeta.

Bolded, I understand this and working to understand and hopefully resolve. Not sure if you read the post about the dysfunctional relationship I had with my mom before she passed away, but my therapist (and Watercolors who seems to be pretty knowledgeable about this stuff) and one good close friend believe I am trying to fix my broken relationship with her through the men I attract, date and have relationships with.  Men who sort of keep on edge and challenge me.  Emotional men.  Men with problems, just like my mom who was an alcoholic and abusive to me growing up even though I was in denial about it for many years.  

For example (and I have not shared this experience with too many people but maybe it's good to acknowledge it now) the post wherein I discussed reading a book she disapproved of (Rosemary's Baby) and punishing me?  As punishment she cut off my long blonde hair which at the time was down to my waste (she cut it to my chin), and locking me in a very small closet for like three hours.  Until right before my dad came home from work.  After my dad came home, she's all loving and nice but it was a big façade for the sake of my dad.

Anyway, somehow I need to associate patience, understanding and a calm disposition with love.  Which was my dad (before he passed away in the same year as my mom).   My wonderful dad never laid a hand on me, barely ever even raised his voice.  When I disobeyed which wasn't very often, he'd sit with me and calmly explain why it was wrong for me to behave that way.

Anyway re couples counseling, I highly doubt he would be open to it, but I suppose I could ask when he stops stonewalling me.  Right now he's ignoring me and my attempts to talk.

I went home to get the rest of my things over the weekend, I was hoping he would be there so we could talk, but he wasn't.

So I left a note telling him where I was and when he's ready to talk he knows where to find me.  Probably not the best way to handle it, but I didn't want to be in the condo with him anymore.   

I suppose if he never contacts me, then it's over.  Or perhaps I should just consider it over now.

My plan right now is to attend Brooklyn Law, pre-law classes starting this summer, full curriculum begins this fall.  Lots of red tape I have to go through due to COVID to be allowed on campus but it's several months away so I will see what's happening at that time.

Thank you everyone for listening and chiming in.  I will keep you posted.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by poppyfields

[poppyfields]

>>she cut off my long blonde hair which at the time was down to my waste

waist, typing too fast!

[FMW]

Wow, @poppyfields, your mother was truly messed up.  That's a story more chilling than Rosemary's Baby in some ways.  It's testament to your perseverance and resilience that you are able to have decent relationships at all after that.  

I don't know what the answer to the situation with your fiance is, but definitely focus on taking care of yourself and your own needs right now.  I hope your plans for classes this summer work out smoothly.  Focus some happy thoughts on that.   

[poppyfields]

24 minutes ago, FMW said:

Wow, @poppyfields, your mother was truly messed up.  That's a story more chilling than Rosemary's Baby in some ways.  It's testament to your perseverance and resilience that you are able to have decent relationships at all after that.  

I don't know what the answer to the situation with your fiance is, but definitely focus on taking care of yourself and your own needs right now.  I hope your plans for classes this summer work out smoothly.  Focus some happy thoughts on that.   

I thank my dad for that.  He was a very dominant force in my life too in many ways.  He was gone a lot though unfortunately.  But yeah if it weren't for him, I would be totally messed up.

I should modify what I said about learning how to associate patience, understanding, and a calm demeanor with love.  I KNOW it's love, my dad loved me very much.

It's about the men I attract and become attracted to who are more like my mom.   I need to reconcile this, I highly doubt my STBX is going to change.

Anyway, thank you for your kind words.  And yeah I am focusing on happy thoughts or trying to.   When I go to sleep at night, I think about law school and fulfilling my dream.  My late dad was an attorney and I know he would be so proud.

 

 

[Watercolors]

11 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I thank my dad for that.  He was a very dominant force in my life too in many ways.  He was gone a lot though unfortunately.  But yeah if it weren't for him, I would be totally messed up.

I should modify what I said about learning how to associate patience, understanding, and a calm demeanor with love.  I KNOW it's love, my dad loved me very much.

It's about the men I attract and become attracted to who are more like my mom.   I need to reconcile this, I highly doubt my STBX is going to change.

Anyway, thank you for your kind words.  And yeah I am focusing on happy thoughts or trying to.   When I go to sleep at night, I think about law school and fulfilling my dream.  My late dad was an attorney and I know he would be so proud.

 

 

Hey poppy, sorry to read about your mom's absolute cruelty to you re: cutting off your hair and locking you in a closet for reading a book she didn't approve of. That's definitely a traumatic event. Your dad sounds like he was a kind-hearted, loving father. He's the role model you need for future fiances. Your current fiance...I'm not a fan of (obviously). I"d go on a diatribe now about him, but that would be redundant. You deserve 100% better. And, you'll find it. A nice corporate lawyer type perhaps in one of your pre-law classes this summer...you never know!

Congrats on the pre-law classes this summer and enrollment that awaits you for the fall semester. You're on the right path! I bet your dad is smiling at you. If there is an afterlife he's probably always around you. Talk to him. He's listening.