Ex dancer is very judgmental

[Popeye_Jones]

Some years ago, I was a regular at a gentleman's club. I was a regular customer of a particular dancer at said club. While I liked her a lot, I was under no delusion that it was anything more than business. She was a dancer, and it was her job to sit with me and provide companionship. I understood that completely. It is what it is. Or it was what it was, I should say. One thing that I was NOT (and still am NOT) is judgmental. I don't look down on anyone for doing that job. And I certainly don't look down on anyone who frequents such places. Now, it's not something that I do now for many reasons. To be honest, part of me kind of misses it, but at the end of the day, it's better left in the past. That certainly does not mean that I look at anyone who goes to such places now as bad. For one thing, I have zero room to finger wag. However, I am sorry to say, the former dancer of whom I was a regular customer sees it very differently. She is long since out of that business. She wanted out, and is glad to be out, and I can certainly understand that. But, the thing that gets me is, why has she become so judgmental? It doesn't make any sense. I saw her about a year and a half ago. I went up and said hi. It had been several years, so I wasn't sure if she'd even remember me. But, she did. She, very cold and matter of fact, rattled off that I "used to come to the club". I nodded and said that I wasn't sure if she'd remember, given the passage of time.

I mentioned that I had once been a regular customer for her's and her reply was a very snippy "yeah....used to be". I then asked if there was some sort of problem and she shook her head no. The whole thing was awkward and I turned to leave and I said "well, just thought I'd come say hey. But, maybe that wasn't a good idea. Take care". She replied that it was ok. Whatever "it" was. And so I returned and said "well....I mean, I just get a bad vibe here" and she said "well, the reason for that is....you are from....you know....there.....the club". I asked what that was supposed to mean and she said "from that place. From those days. Guys that go there, to places like that are....perverted. That is simply NOT a good quality in a guy". I couldn't help but chuckle and point out the fallacy in her statements. I said "so wait, wait, wait. Really? I'm not trying to make myself out to be something special, but I mean, I did kind of, contribute to you making a living back then. You didn't seem to have an issue with this perverted guy years ago". She said something about "well, no. Back then, I didn't have an issue with any of that. The job, the customers, the place. None of it. But, that was then and this is now. That crap ain't me anymore". I mean, I get it. She's bettered herself and I say more power to her. But to look down on people for doing that job (or frequenting such places), past or present? I don't get that part. We argued back and forth and she said that she hated to label me a pervert but, unfortunately, I had done that to myself by ever setting foot in that place. And even though I had not been to a place like that in many years, once a pervert always a pervert. I then asked what she thought of females who were doing that job currently and she said "pieces of crap" except she didn't say crap. I just shook my head and walked away. 

[Wiseman2]

Sounds like she'd prefer to close that chapter of her life and move on without reminders of it.

[basil67]

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.   People's views of the world change with life experience - why should she be any exception?  

Also, while I am not familiar with the etiquette of seeing someone you know from a sex industry in a public place, I would have thought that one should not acknowledge them outside of their work place.  I think you were out of line in approaching her and so you brought this on yourself.

Edited January 21, 2021 by basil67

[Foxhall]

I imagine some guys behave in a disrespectful way to the ladies working in such a venue and there will be a certain stigma for all guys who frequent,

You probably were not especially friendly with her other than being a "friendly punter",

I think friendships can be built up between clients and workers in this type of scenario, in rare instances there will be something different about a particular customer and they may bond.

most times unlikely though

[basil67]

Thinking further, it sounds like she's got some self loathing going on for her time in that work.   Who knows what situation led her to that work?    Some work in the sex industry because it's good pay, and other do it because they have no other options.   Now if she's got this self loathing going on, it makes perfect sense that she will project that to other workers who do what she did and the men who supported it.  

For someone who claims to not be judgmental, you could do with pulling back on the judgement you're putting on her now.

[Ruby Slippers]

I've never heard of a woman who left sex work and felt good about it later. And I've never heard of a sex worker who had anything but bad feelings toward her customers. The whole business is shady, so it makes sense that once people move on from it, they want to well and truly wash their hands of it. If you want "no judgment," you'll have to talk to a woman who's still in the business and being paid to feed customers' delusions.

[mark clemson]

Yes, she's certainly judging you. You posted this under Friendship, but she clearly never was, nor had any intention of being, your friend. C'est la vie. Pick up the broken pieces of your life and move on.

Edited January 21, 2021 by mark clemson

[Popeye_Jones]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm not sure what you're looking for here.   People's views of the world change with life experience - why should she be any exception?  

Also, while I am not familiar with the etiquette of seeing someone you know from a sex industry in a public place, I would have thought that one should not acknowledge them outside of their work place.  I think you were out of line in approaching her and so you brought this on yourself.

So much wrong here, I don't even know where to start. First of all, that hasn't been her "work place in about oh...7 years. And I didn't walk up and put it on blast that that was where I knew her from. I said "hi. You... probably don't remember me. It's been awhile". I gave her an out. She could have said "no, I sure don't" and I'd have said "no worries. Take care". You are right about the etiquette of not approaching someone in that line of work outside of their workplace. But, that's while they are in said line of work. It really doesn't apply, post dancing. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Popeye_Jones
Spelling

[Popeye_Jones]

1 hour ago, Foxhall said:

I imagine some guys behave in a disrespectful way to the ladies working in such a venue and there will be a certain stigma for all guys who frequent,

You probably were not especially friendly with her other than being a "friendly punter",

I think friendships can be built up between clients and workers in this type of scenario, in rare instances there will be something different about a particular customer and they may bond.

most times unlikely though

No. If I do say so myself, I treated her with nothing but respect. I always left it up to the individual dancers as to whether or not we were anything more than dancer-client. All I did was say hi to her years after she no longer danced. And I got ripped a new one for it. Oh and I got called a "sick degenerate". Completely baseless and unfounded. 

[Popeye_Jones]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Thinking further, it sounds like she's got some self loathing going on for her time in that work.   Who knows what situation led her to that work?    Some work in the sex industry because it's good pay, and other do it because they have no other options.   Now if she's got this self loathing going on, it makes perfect sense that she will project that to other workers who do what she did and the men who supported it.  

For someone who claims to not be judgmental, you could do with pulling back on the judgement you're putting on her now.

Well, here is the thing. She tells me that there was a difference between her and the customers. Us customers, well we chose to come there while someone like her (her words) had "no choice". I didn't press her about what that meant, but I doubt that she was forced into anything. She made it sound like white slavery or something. And why be mad at girls who currently dance? It's not like that's affecting her. And did you miss the part where I said that I had no room to judge? Or am I being judgemental by wondering why she is? 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Popeye_Jones
Additions

[basil67]

Yep, you're being judgmental by judging her views.  Views which have been formed by experience...it's hardly like she's someone who doesn't know what that life is like. the pretending to like men who she loathes or knowing the stories of women she's met during those times.   I would guess that you have little idea what their personal situations are or what gets said in the dressing rooms.  Her having 'no choice', this is exactly what I suspected and why she's got complex feelings about it.  She's probably trodden a dark path,  and likely had little education.  Who knows what the background was that landed her doing that job.   But hey, she's risen out of it and is happy for who she is now.  Doesn't mean that she should have positive feelings about you, other clients or what she did at the time.

As for getting ripped a new one for saying Hi, as I said earlier, I would imagine that you broke etiquette in a major way by greeting her outside of the clubs.  That was really bad form on your part.  

Edited January 22, 2021 by basil67

[Popeye_Jones]

46 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yep, you're being judgmental by judging her views.  Views which have been formed by experience...it's hardly like she's someone who doesn't know what that life is like. the pretending to like men who she loathes or knowing the stories of women she's met during those times.   I would guess that you have little idea what their personal situations are or what gets said in the dressing rooms.  Her having 'no choice', this is exactly what I suspected and why she's got complex feelings about it.  She's probably trodden a dark path,  and likely had little education.  Who knows what the background was that landed her doing that job.   But hey, she's risen out of it and is happy for who she is now.  Doesn't mean that she should have positive feelings about you, other clients or what she did at the time.

As for getting ripped a new one for saying Hi, as I said earlier, I would imagine that you broke etiquette in a major way by greeting her outside of the clubs.  That was really bad form on your part.  

Try and stay with me here. While she was a dancer, and I was her client, we always got along. Shoot, I helped her out of a jam, more than once. I didn’t do it so she’d owe me one day. I’m just saying that to show that we didn’t have issues back then. So, I was just a little perplexed as to why she was the way she was towards me years after she no longer danced. And I didn’t think that the etiquette applied if they no longer danced. But, I could have been mistaken. Who knows. I approached her in a discreet way. But, I guess I was supposed to just walk on by. Well I say hello to people. I don’t treat them like I never knew them. And if she would rather I didn’t speak to her, she could have said “I don’t remember you”,or she could have just said “I remember you, but, I would rather not talk. Nothing personal,but I don’t rap with ex customers”. I’d have been fine with that. Shoot, I understand. I was just going off of what I recall from our time of being dancer and client, which was not a bad time. We were friends. I’m telling you, we never argued or anything like that back then. But, maybe that doesn’t mean anything in the present day and maybe that’s where I’m just plain mistaken. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Popeye_Jones

[basil67]

Well as she said, that was then - this is now.   She's changed

No, she didn't ignore you - she gave you a basic hello.  But when she wasn't warm towards you, you wanted to know what the bad vibe was and she told you exactly what she thought.   Had you walked away when she was cool, you wouldn't have been ripped a new one.

Edited January 22, 2021 by basil67

[Popeye_Jones]

I can hang my hat on that. I made it all about me and didn’t think about it from her end. After all, just because we once knew each other in a former life, it does not mean that I’m owed anything. 

[Popeye_Jones]

I think the biggest issue here is that she can deem herself a changed person, but yet, others are beyond hope. Anyone else who once did that job is worthless. No possible way that other ex dancers could be different now. Only her. Same for former customers. The rest of us are all beyond redemption. The change only applies to her. 

[ShyViolet]

Why don't you stop trying to control how she feels about a place that she used to work at.  It sounds like it was a bad experience for her and possibly a painful time in her life and she wants to put it all behind her.  Even though you frequented the place as a customer, you have no idea what she may have been through or the life experiences she may have had.  She feels the way she feels.  It's not your place to say how she should feel about it.  

[basil67]

21 minutes ago, Popeye_Jones said:

I think the biggest issue here is that she can deem herself a changed person, but yet, others are beyond hope. Anyone else who once did that job is worthless. No possible way that other ex dancers could be different now. Only her. Same for former customers. The rest of us are all beyond redemption. The change only applies to her. 

What happened to you hanging your hat on the 'that was then and this is now?"

Yes, she said that current dancers are 'pieces of crap'.  This is likely how she now views her old self.   Further, the two of you were arguing and it's entirely likely she came on more strongly than she would otherwise have done so simply because you'd pinned her down to hash over all this stuff with her.  Have you spent any time considering that this woman was minding her own business....you approached her....you asked her thoughts and then proceeded to debate those thoughts.   You were really, really out of line here.   Why do you think you had the right to do this to her?

The long and short of it is that she has every right to think whatever she thinks.  As yet, The Thought Police are not a thing.

[Perdu]

12 hours ago, Popeye_Jones said:

Some years ago, I was a regular at a gentleman's club. I was a regular customer of a particular dancer at said club. While I liked her a lot, I was under no delusion that it was anything more than business. She was a dancer, and it was her job to sit with me and provide companionship. I understood that completely. It is what it is. Or it was what it was, I should say. One thing that I was NOT (and still am NOT) is judgmental. I don't look down on anyone for doing that job. And I certainly don't look down on anyone who frequents such places. Now, it's not something that I do now for many reasons. To be honest, part of me kind of misses it, but at the end of the day, it's better left in the past. That certainly does not mean that I look at anyone who goes to such places now as bad. For one thing, I have zero room to finger wag. However, I am sorry to say, the former dancer of whom I was a regular customer sees it very differently. She is long since out of that business. She wanted out, and is glad to be out, and I can certainly understand that. But, the thing that gets me is, why has she become so judgmental? It doesn't make any sense. I saw her about a year and a half ago. I went up and said hi. It had been several years, so I wasn't sure if she'd even remember me. But, she did. She, very cold and matter of fact, rattled off that I "used to come to the club". I nodded and said that I wasn't sure if she'd remember, given the passage of time.

I mentioned that I had once been a regular customer for her's and her reply was a very snippy "yeah....used to be". I then asked if there was some sort of problem and she shook her head no. The whole thing was awkward and I turned to leave and I said "well, just thought I'd come say hey. But, maybe that wasn't a good idea. Take care". She replied that it was ok. Whatever "it" was. And so I returned and said "well....I mean, I just get a bad vibe here" and she said "well, the reason for that is....you are from....you know....there.....the club". I asked what that was supposed to mean and she said "from that place. From those days. Guys that go there, to places like that are....perverted. That is simply NOT a good quality in a guy". I couldn't help but chuckle and point out the fallacy in her statements. I said "so wait, wait, wait. Really? I'm not trying to make myself out to be something special, but I mean, I did kind of, contribute to you making a living back then. You didn't seem to have an issue with this perverted guy years ago". She said something about "well, no. Back then, I didn't have an issue with any of that. The job, the customers, the place. None of it. But, that was then and this is now. That crap ain't me anymore". I mean, I get it. She's bettered herself and I say more power to her. But to look down on people for doing that job (or frequenting such places), past or present? I don't get that part. We argued back and forth and she said that she hated to label me a pervert but, unfortunately, I had done that to myself by ever setting foot in that place. And even though I had not been to a place like that in many years, once a pervert always a pervert. I then asked what she thought of females who were doing that job currently and she said "pieces of crap" except she didn't say crap. I just shook my head and walked away. 

Well, I think you were seeking more human connection that her job implied. I don't know the etiquette regarded to such activities, but in lack of, I think it's nothing wrong from your side to think about her in some sort of friendly way, not as just somebody providing you a service. I can say this kind of attitude (like saying hello to someone whom you've known for years)  wouldn't cause such fuss if she had been your regular haidresser, doctor or gardner. 

But she wasn't any of that. She obviously hated her job, hated her situation,  wasn't "open minded" about the industry and probably hated herself for doing dancing and maybe more than that, who knows.  And when it's so much hate around, it's hard to distinguish the decent guys from  the  "perverts" that she may have encountered over the years at her job.

So, don't take it personally, it's not about you as a person, since she doesn't really know and never was interested in knowing, it's more about her closing that unhappy chapter in her life and forgetting everything associated to it.

You just touched an sore spot and she reacted.

[stillafool]

I know if I were an ex Dancer and a past client approached me in public it would freak me out and I probably would pretend I don't even know who they are.  I imagine many who leave want to forget about that life and certainly don't want to be reminded of it by an ex customer.  OP don't approach them IRL as they won't appreciate it.

Edited January 22, 2021 by stillafool

[Popeye_Jones]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

What happened to you hanging your hat on the 'that was then and this is now?"

Yes, she said that current dancers are 'pieces of crap'.  This is likely how she now views her old self.   Further, the two of you were arguing and it's entirely likely she came on more strongly than she would otherwise have done so simply because you'd pinned her down to hash over all this stuff with her.  Have you spent any time considering that this woman was minding her own business....you approached her....you asked her thoughts and then proceeded to debate those thoughts.   You were really, really out of line here.   Why do you think you had the right to do this to her?

The long and short of it is that she has every right to think whatever she thinks.  As yet, The Thought Police are not a thing.

You're right. I did say I can hang my hat on that. I was just wondering if she thinks that only she is capable of changing. I mean, the ones who are dancing currently. Who is to say that they won't be changed people in the future? Yes, you are right. The thought police aren't a thing yet, LOL. They are trying though. Here's hoping that they fail. Was I really out of line though? I mean...maybe...but for what its' worth, we did argue civilly. No raised voices or anything. Touch of sarcasm a time or two by me during the argument. But that's as bad as it got. I'll know better going forward. 

[Popeye_Jones]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

I know if I were an ex Dancer and a past client approached me in public it would freak me out and I probably would pretend I don't even know who they are.  I imagine many who leave want to forget about that life and certainly don't want to be reminded of it by an ex customer.  OP don't approach them IRL as they won't appreciate it.

In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, regardless of the fact that we had always gotten along and had no issues back then. None of that means anything in the present day, and I can understand that. 

[elaine567]

The problem with anyone who works in a service industry, is that they are PAID to be nice and friendly to people they don't like or even hate.
Here you thought you had a good "relationship" with this woman at the gentleman's club, but turns out she did not see it that way.
You were just another "pervert" to her.
The other issue with service providers is that they are usually in a subservient position to the client.
The customer is always right.
That can rankle, especially if they feel they are "better" than those they serve.
The other problem is that as they provide a service and do not own the business, they have no control over who walks in that door. They are sitting ducks. They may feel they have "no choice" in the matter, especially if they NEED the work..

As for now, she probably didn't like the fact you thought you could just walk up to her and she would just have to put on the friendly act to please you.
A lot of water had travelled under that bridge and she was in no mood to do that.
In fact she used your persistence to tell you exactly what she really thought.

[Popeye_Jones]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with anyone who works in a service industry, is that they are PAID to be nice and friendly to people they don't like or even hate.
Here you thought you had a good "relationship" with this woman at the gentleman's club, but turns out she did not see it that way.
You were just another "pervert" to her.
The other issue with service providers is that they are usually in a subservient position to the client.
The customer is always right.
That can rankle, especially if they feel they are "better" than those they serve.
The other problem is that as they provide a service and do not own the business, they have no control over who walks in that door. They are sitting ducks. They may feel they have "no choice" in the matter, especially if they NEED the work..

As for now, she probably didn't like the fact you thought you could just walk up to her and she would just have to put on the friendly act to please you.
A lot of water had travelled under that bridge and she was in no mood to do that.
In fact she used your persistence to tell you exactly what she really thought.

If I do say so myself, I was very respectful to her while I was her client. I would never want someone who provides a service to me to dread seeing me. She trusted me enough to give her a ride a few times. I didn't drop her off where she lived. At her request, I'd drop her at a relative's house where she'd stay the night. Which was the right thing to do on her part. I didn't want nor need to know where she lived. I just recall times like that. She had to have felt some level of comfort with me to put that level of trust in me. But, there again, maybe that just comes with the territory. Maybe I read way too much into that. Not like a "maybe I have a shot with her" kind of way, but more of a maybe I was the exception rather than the rule. At any rate, I don't regret having met her. It was good knowing her during that time. We talked about a lot of things. Shoot, we had some deep conversations. I THINK she enjoyed our talks back then. I mean, I think she genuinely enjoyed them. But, at the end of the day, it was the circumstances. Had we met under different ones, who knows. Thank you for your reply. It's helpful. 

[Allupinnit]

Yeah you guys THOUGHT you were friends, but you were paying her to be friendly with you.  I'm sure she felt rather cornered and defensive and didn't feel like she owed you any explanation.

[Popeye_Jones]

2 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Yeah you guys THOUGHT you were friends, but you were paying her to be friendly with you.  I'm sure she felt rather cornered and defensive and didn't feel like she owed you any explanation.

All in the job. I can understand. Us former customers all want to believe that we were the exception and not the rule. For what it's worth, I did ask first if me approaching her was ok. She said yeah, but the way she said it should have been a hint. It was a "yeah" like "well, you have already approached me".