Hindsight is always 20/20

[Watercolors]

So, I paid $300 for a 6-week class online, co-taught by two writers. Both have advanced degrees, yet only one is technically an instructor. The the other is a grad student. The class is not through any academic institution or community center. It's just one person's offering through their website. 

After 3 online class sessions, it became apparent to myself and the small class of students that the one who was "instructing" was not really doing so. He usually wasted 60 of the 90 minute class, pontificating total nonsense that had nothing to do with the class subject. 

His behavior made me think of Celeste Headlee's TEDTalk, 10 ways to have a better conversation, where she states, "Don't pontificate. If you want to state your opinion without any opportunity for response or argument or pushback or growth, write a blog." 

In hindsight, I could have sent an email to let the grad student (who organized the class as its not offered through any educational institution but through the grad student, in an informal way on a website) know that I wanted to withdraw from the class. That would have allowed me to save face, and not burn any bridges. Instead, I lost my temper by the third class, and berated the instructor for wasting my time with his pontificating for an hour about nothing, instead of "instructing" and actually teaching us something that we paid $300 to learn more about. The grad student always remained in the background. 

The "instructor" sent me a hostile and very unprofessional email today, cc'ing the grad student. 

Quote

You do not set the agenda for this course, and I will continue to teach it as I see fit to the best advantage of class members, If you don't like the class, you know how to turn off your computer. And if you behave like this again, I will do that for you.

After I received this email, I simply emailed the graduate student back (whom I found out about the class through, since she had set it up), and told her that I would no longer participate in the class. I didn't write anything more than that. 

I don't like that I let my exasperation get the better of me. I normally would take a day to think about responding before taking action. I guess I just let my frustration get the better of me. I couldn't believe I had paid $300 to learn nothing, except listen to a very pompous a**h*** opine about complete nonsense unrelated to the class material. 

Has anyone ever paid for a service -- a lot of money -- and had the instructor just waste your time pontificating (i.e. preaching in an annoying way, that comes across arrogant or pompous) instead of teaching what you paid them to teach you? Like, personal trainer, etc.? 

 

[Ellener]

13 hours ago, Watercolors said:

Has anyone ever paid for a service -- a lot of money -- and had the instructor just waste your time pontificating (i.e. preaching in an annoying way, that comes across arrogant or pompous) instead of teaching what you paid them to teach you? Like, personal trainer, etc.? 

I had a personal trainer once who was always late for our sessions, then did not handle it well when I called him out on it; we stayed sort-of friends for a while but I got another trainer as he couldn't do his job properly! 

My big goal this year is to not 'get into it' all the time; there's so much going on everywhere and I really need a time-out from stress and anxiety. To be calm and shake my head and walk away! I'm getting older too and don't want to turn into a senior serial complainer...

I've been doing trainings and certifications the past few weeks, some were paid, but many were free. There's coursera, edX, plus the local workforce commission connections. The one I'm doing now is the 40 hour registered behaviour technician training via Autism Partnership Foundation, it is intentionally free to ensure everyone working in a behaviourism field has access to quality training. Another useful basic qualification is the Red Cross first aid certification, that was not expensive ( $65  ) and it's called for in a lot of jobs and a good life skill. 

For writing I googled and got this https://www.classcentral.com/report/writing-free-online-courses/ 90 free online classes and an interesting look-over, some of the offerings...

A couple of years I've done https://nanowrimo.org/ and I just signed up again for their emails, I am writing daily but not in a very structured way! Don't know if it will motivate me, but it's a fun encouraging website for writers.

Sorry about your experience but he's now part of a caricature in your repertoire! 🖋️

 

[Watercolors]

7 hours ago, Ellener said:

I had a personal trainer once who was always late for our sessions, then did not handle it well when I called him out on it; we stayed sort-of friends for a while but I got another trainer as he couldn't do his job properly! 

My big goal this year is to not 'get into it' all the time; there's so much going on everywhere and I really need a time-out from stress and anxiety. To be calm and shake my head and walk away! I'm getting older too and don't want to turn into a senior serial complainer...

I've been doing trainings and certifications the past few weeks, some were paid, but many were free. There's coursera, edX, plus the local workforce commission connections. The one I'm doing now is the 40 hour registered behaviour technician training via Autism Partnership Foundation, it is intentionally free to ensure everyone working in a behaviourism field has access to quality training. Another useful basic qualification is the Red Cross first aid certification, that was not expensive ( $65  ) and it's called for in a lot of jobs and a good life skill. 

For writing I googled and got this https://www.classcentral.com/report/writing-free-online-courses/ 90 free online classes and an interesting look-over, some of the offerings...

A couple of years I've done https://nanowrimo.org/ and I just signed up again for their emails, I am writing daily but not in a very structured way! Don't know if it will motivate me, but it's a fun encouraging website for writers.

Sorry about your experience but he's now part of a caricature in your repertoire! 🖋️

 

Hey Ellener thanks for responding to my post!

I'm like you though. I don't care what someone's "title" is, if they are wasting my time and money I will call them out on it. I don't know how you could have stayed friends with that horrible personal trainer though. He spent his time explaining exercise to you didn't he? Instead of show you how to do the exercises? If I'm correct? 

I am normally not a confrontational person either. I am sick and tired of narcissist a**h***s treat me like I"m small and powerless. Just this a**h***'s email response alone, show him to be the bully and profligate person due to his "I'm so great listen to me" gross self-indulgence. The grad student never responded to my email. I am very curious why she would hire someone like him to lead her writing class, and also, why she would allow him to talk to a student the way he did in his email to me. That speaks volumes about her true colors, I think. As though, she has no respect for me at all and kisses the ground he walks on. 

Thanks for those links. I'll take a look at them. I am obsessed with writing conventions and plot structure right now. I have about 4 novels envisioned that I want to write. I just need to structure them out properly first, and then fill in the creative content after I set up the plot structure and narrative format first. 

I would love to do nanowriting for a novel completion. Thanks for your sympathy. Yes, he is a caricature in my repertoire. He's famous in the writing community, so not sure that will come back to bite me in the ass -- that I essentially accused him of wasting our time in class with his pontificating. I can't let one a**h*** silence me, if I want to be a creative writer. 

[josedelamuerte]

Many years ago I went to music school. There was one course everyone had to take - "An Introduction to Creativity", or something along those lines. Back then I thought "hey, it's part of the curriculum, they must have some kind of plan". Having grown up and learned a few things about how some people choose to run their business - I realize it was just a time wasting filler class. We never touched on the creative process. The teacher (who was actually a fairly accomplished composer) just rambled and played back her favorite Radiohead songs. It wasn't torturous, but definitely not what I signed up for, and not anything I would sign up for. Must've cost something in the ballpark of 300$. Sucks.

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, josedelamuerte said:

Many years ago I went to music school. There was one course everyone had to take - "An Introduction to Creativity", or something along those lines. Back then I thought "hey, it's part of the curriculum, they must have some kind of plan". Having grown up and learned a few things about how some people choose to run their business - I realize it was just a time wasting filler class. We never touched on the creative process. The teacher (who was actually a fairly accomplished composer) just rambled and played back her favorite Radiohead songs. It wasn't torturous, but definitely not what I signed up for, and not anything I would sign up for. Must've cost something in the ballpark of 300$. Sucks.

Ugh! Sorry to read that you had the same experience where your expectations didn't meet the reality of what was promised to you as a student. It just proves my theory that just because you have a degree or a talent, doesn't mean you have any skill for teaching others. Clearly, your composer-instructor had zero teaching abilities if all she did was use her class time to play her favorite band songs that she pontificated about to you and your classmates. 

[josedelamuerte]

Well, I signed up to a program that would have eventually led to a degree in jazz performance, which at the time I thought was something I actually wanted. This course I considered a necessary evil in that sense. In retrospect I would have stayed well away from music school in the first place. I've gotten much more from private teachers, books, and just playing out with put-together bands of like minded musicians I met at pubs and odd jobs. But some things you only learn through living, I guess.

[Watercolors]

14 hours ago, josedelamuerte said:

Well, I signed up to a program that would have eventually led to a degree in jazz performance, which at the time I thought was something I actually wanted. This course I considered a necessary evil in that sense. In retrospect I would have stayed well away from music school in the first place. I've gotten much more from private teachers, books, and just playing out with put-together bands of like minded musicians I met at pubs and odd jobs. But some things you only learn through living, I guess.

I'm with you on learning from private teachers, books, and through your own practice and performance. Sometimes, life is a better teacher than academia. Well, for the most part, life IS a better teacher than academia. I know tons of people who "made it" without getting a higher education degree in their field. 

I just hope these two people don't try to sabotage or undermine my own efforts now that I've had a bad experience with them. They seem to be very superficial, snarky people. I wouldn't put it past them to bad mouth me to their inner circles. 

[josedelamuerte]

I can think of a bunch of people who've gotten pretty far despite being (by some accounts) "difficult to work with", or even downright "A-holes" (some famous examples that come to mind would be Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Miles Davis). There's this bass player I know who seems to me to be living life leaving a bad impression at just about every stop along the way. Lost one job because he was accused by a girl of harrasment. I once recommended his band for a high paying gig at a tech company - the lady managing the event calls me up in a fit of panic a couple of hours before the event saying they haven't showed up, and that he's not answering her calls, and asking if I know how he can be reached. He's rude, slovenly, not very bright, and still, a few years later I saw a separate group of his playing at a couple of parties I attended where they absolutely nailed it (even got my dad dancing!), and it's not uncommon for me to turn on the radio nowadays and hear one of his pop-band's songs playing. He's happily married now, and last I cyber-stalked he seems to have a baby (probably stolen, I kid I kid).

I guess my point is that you can mess up way worst and still succeed, on account of just doing honest work. Having said that, he wanted to buy an instrument I was selling a few years back, offered something close to my asking price, in cash, and I refused - on principle. I prefer dealing with people I like.

[Watercolors]

Tonight, that grad student sent me an email. In her email, she was very business-like. She asked me how I wanted my refund first. Then, she asked me how my writing was going. Then, she asked me how I was doing. 

I should add, today was the last online class she and her colleague had put together. So, it's very ironic that she didn't prioritize repairing the damage her colleague did to me with his inappropriate and rather asinine email. Like, why didn't she apologize for allowing him to send that to me and cc' her on it. Why not mention it to me in her email that she sent to me today? 

It gave me the impression that she's not invested in apologizing to me, beyond wanting to refund me the $300 I had paid to take their abysmal writing class. It speaks to her lack of character, that she is either snide or embarrassed by the email that her colleague sent to me. Doesn't it? It doesn't paint her in a positive light to me at all -- that she allowed him to act that way since she was the one to organize the class and find people to take it. You'd think she would profusely apologize to me for the horrible experience she and her colleague were responsible for. But she didn't. She pretended nothing happened which is very immature and sends me the message, that I don't matter to her or to him. 

I'm GREAT at giving other people advice on here, but a gold medalist in second-guessing because I can't decide if I should just ignore her email and delete it. Or, if I should respond business-like, and tell her where to send my refund for the class. 

I'm open to your advice and anyone else who is interested in responding. 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[josedelamuerte]

It's hard to guess as to why you never got an apology. Even smaller businesses usually try to leave a good impression on all customers, unsatisfied though they may be. It sounds like they're just not so good at handling negative feedback (like many people in the creative professions). Maybe you're the first one who asked for a refund. I know I have a hard time accepting criticism in a constructive manner, and I'm working on it - not getting overly emotional about it, and seeing if maybe my critic has touched on a point that I also feel could use some work.

Speaking of not being overly emotional - take the refund. Get yourself something nice. It'll make you feel better about the whole thing. Also, it'll make them feel your dissatisfaction more than if you were to slink back into the shadows pouting, with your cash in their hands.

A refund is the absolute minimum they can do to try and appease you. Accepting it doesn't mean that all is forgiven, or that your overall experience with them was now a good or even a neutral one. But in my eyes it does mean it was a less negative one, and I like to think of it as a prize for refusing to accept their crappy course in its current state. For having standards.

[dramafreezone]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:31 PM, Watercolors said:

Instead, I lost my temper by the third class, and berated the instructor for wasting my time with his pontificating for an hour about nothing, instead of "instructing" and actually teaching us something that we paid $300 to learn more about. The grad student always remained in the background. 

The "instructor" sent me a hostile and very unprofessional email today, cc'ing the grad student. 

After I received this email, I simply emailed the graduate student back (whom I found out about the class through, since she had set it up), and told her that I would no longer participate in the class. I didn't write anything more than that. 

I don't like that I let my exasperation get the better of me. I normally would take a day to think about responding before taking action. I guess I just let my frustration get the better of me. I couldn't believe I had paid $300 to learn nothing, except listen to a very pompous a**h*** opine about complete nonsense unrelated to the class material. 

Has anyone ever paid for a service -- a lot of money -- and had the instructor just waste your time pontificating (i.e. preaching in an annoying way, that comes across arrogant or pompous) instead of teaching what you paid them to teach you? Like, personal trainer, etc.? 

 

Well, you were pretty disrespectful so I don't blame him for his response.  How was he supposed to respond to that?

Maybe next time let him know what you want from him in a way that won't cause him to be dismissive or defensive.  He might respond that way anyway but at least you know that you did your best to get what you wanted out of the situation and that you were the grounded one.

[basil67]

To be honest, if you'd delivered your thoughts in a considered way (perhaps an email with constructive criticism to him, or a private word after class) and he'd responded in that way, you would be very much owed an apology.    However, you lost your temper and ripped him a new one in front of the whole class.   While your views on his teaching style likely have merit, this was not the way to deliver them.   In my view, your behaviour was far worse than the email he replied with and if anything, you owe him an apology.

At any rate, they've offered you a refund.  Accepting it quietly and heading on your way would be the best way to deal with it.

Edited February 8, 2021 by basil67

[BaileyB]

23 hours ago, Watercolors said:

Like, why didn't she apologize for allowing him to send that to me and cc' her on it.

Did she even know that he was planning to send that email and cc her in the email?

Quote

Tonight, that grad student sent me an email. In her email, she was very business-like. She asked me how I wanted my refund first. Then, she asked me how my writing was going. Then, she asked me how I was doing. 

She was kind and asked about your writing and how you were doing. I work in customer service, and when a client behaves in such an aggressive way, I am very, very careful about how I interact with that person in the future. I don’t know that I would have even bothered to ask, I would have got the job done. 

23 hours ago, Watercolors said:

Why not mention it to me in her email that she sent to me today? It gave me the impression that she's not invested in apologizing to me, beyond wanting to refund me the $300 I had paid to take their abysmal writing class. It speaks to her lack of character, that she is either snide or embarrassed by the email that her colleague sent to me.

It doesn't paint her in a positive light to me at all -- that she allowed him to act that way since she was the one to organize the class and find people to take it. You'd think she would profusely apologize to me for the horrible experience she and her colleague were responsible for. But she didn't. She pretended nothing happened which is very immature and sends me the message, that I don't matter to her or to him. 

They seem to be very superficial, snarky people.

Respectfully, you don’t matter to either one of them. It’s a time limited course and now, you will never see them again. 

I’m not sure why you pass such judgment on the woman. While she may have organized the class, he is presenting the class. He is more experienced and I would assume, more senior. And it goes without saying, she is not responsible for the email he sent. 

You pass judgment on this woman saying that she is snarky and immature, but what does it say of your character that you lost your temper and berated a man in front of a group of other student? Where was your self control? Did you send an apology to the man after to apologize, cc’ing the grad student? 

I’m not saying this to be unkind, truly. And hindsight is 20-20. Every person in this world has acted impulsively and lost their cool. Everyone has done something that they have regretted after the fact.

As basil said, considering the fact that you berated the man in front of the other students, it’s kind of understandable why he sent the email. She responded kindly and professionally and I think the appropriate response is a simple thank you. 

And FYI, I once paid for a photography class at a professional photography studio that was clearly the first class this instructor had ever taught. She was referring to “high school” and the other students in the class were answering questions that she could not answer. They brought in another instruction after a few lessons but it was a wasted experience. I feel your pain, it’s not fun to feel like you are wasting your time and hard earned money - especially when it’s something you are excited to do! But, I didn’t complain. I simply registered for my next photography class at another studio... 

Edited February 9, 2021 by BaileyB

[panteraplan]

Kind of late here...

 

in my marketing career I've learned that 95% of the time, value isn't always taken into consideration when building courses like this, making MONEY is. I understand you losing your cool. I'd be pissed too if I sensed BS early on. 3 classes in and no real value? Doesn't sound good. Sounds like a lot of fluff. I kinda like that you called them out. His response should have been more along the lines of 'damage control' and 'the customer is always right'... not the Eff You that you received. They want people satisfied.. not being mad and possibly badmouthing the course. Not that you did, I'm just saying. Customer service, dude! Come on!

 

This is NOT directed at you and I mean NO disrespect... but one thing I always think about when it comes to paid courses and high-priced seminars that cost a large amount of money, that hit on your pain points with their "Free Live Intro Live Stream" (or whatever) to entice you to buy the full course (which most of the time, those live streams are sh*t)  is what Gary Vaynerchuk always says about paid courses and paid masterminds... 

 

...I'm paraphrasing but: "You know why I give out all my value and everything I got, all my content out for free? Because I know most of you aren't going to do a damn thing with it. How many more courses, masterminds and blogs do you need to consume? - It's called Google, start using it!"

 

I've seen a lot of crap courses out there that cost big money and promise big things. Course creation is definitely an industry. Grad students will do it to pay off their student loans. For some, it's a second income stream. For a lot, it's their main source of income having multiple courses out there on the market. I'm no expert, I've just seen what I've seen. You have to weed out the good ones from the one that are just created to be money makers. 

 

I could talk forever about it but I won't

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by panteraplan

[Watercolors]

On 2/9/2021 at 11:31 AM, panteraplan said:

Kind of late here...

in my marketing career I've learned that 95% of the time, value isn't always taken into consideration when building courses like this, making MONEY is. I understand you losing your cool. I'd be pissed too if I sensed BS early on. 3 classes in and no real value? Doesn't sound good. Sounds like a lot of fluff. I kinda like that you called them out. His response should have been more along the lines of 'damage control' and 'the customer is always right'... not the Eff You that you received. They want people satisfied.. not being mad and possibly badmouthing the course. Not that you did, I'm just saying. Customer service, dude! Come on!

This is NOT directed at you and I mean NO disrespect... but one thing I always think about when it comes to paid courses and high-priced seminars that cost a large amount of money, that hit on your pain points with their "Free Live Intro Live Stream" (or whatever) to entice you to buy the full course (which most of the time, those live streams are sh*t)  is what Gary Vaynerchuk always says about paid courses and paid masterminds... 

...I'm paraphrasing but: "You know why I give out all my value and everything I got, all my content out for free? Because I know most of you aren't going to do a damn thing with it. How many more courses, masterminds and blogs do you need to consume? - It's called Google, start using it!"

I've seen a lot of crap courses out there that cost big money and promise big things. Course creation is definitely an industry. Grad students will do it to pay off their student loans. For some, it's a second income stream. For a lot, it's their main source of income having multiple courses out there on the market. I'm no expert, I've just seen what I've seen. You have to weed out the good ones from the one that are just created to be money makers. 

I could talk forever about it but I won't

 

I love your post because you accurately pinpoint the context of why I had that outburst. I did sense 100% B.S. from them both 3 classes in. NO VALUE WHATSOEVER. No new information about the famous writer and their work; no set syllabus writing exercises with deadlines in between the once a week online Zoom classes; no peer feedback forms; no rubric forms attached to the weekly emails; and every weekend the class never started at the time advertised, so we each had to wait until we received the Zoom meeting link via email. Can you imagine the horror show if I'd showed that asshat my own writing for his "professional feedback" on it? Um, no way would I lower myself!!

Very unprofessionally slapped together. Sure, they had a website which served as a bookmark for the class, but even the website didn't list the course pricing it just had the biographies of the two people on it, who were leading the class and an email address. Huge red flag that I regret ignoring in hindsight. But because a friend told me about it, I *assumed* it was legit and was excited to participate. 

Basically, the two of the course creators scammed myself and the other people out of our $300 fee. There was no inherent value they offered, other than being taught by someone who is related to a famous writer. That in itself, does not justify scamming people out of their hard-earned income but it clearly does happen as I experienced.

I was insulted on a personal level, and disgusted by their manipulative ploy to charge so much money so that people could say, 'Oh, I took a writing class from so-and-so" as though that would open professional doors in the writing community. Maybe it would have, but having not learned ANYTHING, then it's only paying $300 to use the course creator's last name as a way to socially network within a large writing community. Why should I pay $300 to do that?

Making MONEY was their m.o., not actually providing us with quality writing instruction and analysis and peer feedback opportunities for our own writing. I could have just taken a $10 online creative writing class and paced myself with the modules (which I plan to do now at least). 

So, yeah, I did not get my money's worth. At all!

Yes, I see those "course creation" ads on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube where people tout how you can make 3-figures by paying them to teach you how to create a course that you don't even teach, but mail it to people. It's all a big money making scam in the end. Isn't it? 

Please do talk more about this b/c I think you have a lot of insight and experience that would benefit me. 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Watercolors