Married > separated > dating

[Steve2021]

Hi.

Not sure whether this is the right forum because although married we are separated. We are currently dating and maybe getting back together. Confused?  Try being me.  Anyway, mods if it needs to be moved please do so.

As I said I'm a married (currently separated) man here. 11 years married, 17 together (last 6 months apart).

Two years or so ago I discovered a fetish of my wife and once it was out in the open it just seemed to explode.

Without going into detail I found a double penis suction cup dildo stuck to the wall in our shower, she had obviously forgot to remove it. The discussions that triggered have lead me down a path that I’m struggling with. Basically she likes two penises and wanted to do it for real. She said this with no shame. She pretty much sought my approval to bring another man in to share her. I was horrified by this. Of course I said no. No amount of ‘what if’ scenarios I put forward to show possible disastrous consequences seemed to matter. 

It got to a stage where I had to threaten our marriage and put an ultimatum on the table that if she was to keep pursuing that then we’re essentially finished. She chose us but we agreed that she could keep using the toys and that we would also introduce them into our play together.  I was fine with that.

About 14 months ago I asked her wanted for her birthday and she broke down and confided that she cannot stop thinking about this with another person and that’s what she wanted.  She apologized. She said she knew what it meant. She swore she still loved me. She begged me not to leave. I had no choice, I told her I would not be changing my mind and if she couldn’t work this out then I will leave. We agreed that we would see a counselor together and she also started seeing an individual counselor. Skipping past all the detail, the counselor didn’t work, she didn’t change and I left 8 months ago.

We have kept in contact, I don’t hate her we just grew in different directions. Two weeks ago we went to dinner together as we occasionally do and she said she wanted me to move back home. Again cutting out all the unimportant stuff she says her individual counselor helped her and she’s realized how wrong she was. She never acted on her desires and she wants me back.  The thought of getting back with her gives me butterflies, I would want nothing more. The problem I’m having is I guess essentially a trust issue. How do I know she didn’t act on her fantasy? She was single, she’s under no obligation to tell me as I’m not to tell her anything I did whilst we were apart. Of course we’ve discussed this and she swears she saw no-one else. She offered to do a polygraph but I’m not convinced by the validity of them, but it is on the table.

I can’t help feeling that I’ll be walking back into a fire. I’m not sure I’ll ever be completely convinced that she didn’t act out her fantasy.  Does it even matter if she did while single?  We’ve agreed to start dating and see where it leads. Am I doing the right thing?

[Marc878]

Hmmm, sounds like you maybe incompatible.  Under the circumstances words don’t mean much. People lie all the time. What did her actions tell you? Once trust is broken it never fully comes back. Can you live with that? Fetishes can be controlled but never go away.
 

She was so adamant that she wanted to try other men and was more than willing to let you leave but she never tried it? Sounds like once she got what she wanted it didn’t work out so well for her and now she wants her old life back after she blew it up. This was a choice she made. Often when they tell you and show you who they are you’d be wise to believe them.
 

You have a lot of time involved here so you’re hesitant in making a decision so you’ve effectively put yourself in limbo. I doubt you will ever get the full truth. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Marc878

[trident_2020]

Tell her you want her to take a lie detector test.

Hopefully she isn't aware that lie detector tests aren't all that reliable but her response to your suggestion can be very telling. From what I've read even if she agrees to the test, you can often get a "parking lot confession" prior to the test as her anxiety rises.

If she's innocent, you'll never know for sure because it's virtually impossible to prove a negative, however you might feel somewhat more at ease if nothing comes of it.

[elaine567]

27 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Tell her you want her to take a lie detector test.

SHE already suggested she take one.

29 minutes ago, trident_2020 said:

Hopefully she isn't aware that lie detector tests aren't all that reliable but her response to your suggestion can be very telling.

As she offered to do one. She will know all about them, so the car park confession "trick" is unlikely.
HE is the one who sees them as unreliable, so doesn't think they will help with regaining his trust...

[trident_2020]

Thats what I get for skim reading. 🙄

[trident_2020]

@elaine567in my defense it's 8 am here and I am only partially through my morning cup of coffee.

 

[Steve2021]

Do you think it's possible she never acted on her fantasy?
Here's my thinking, as flawed as it may be. She's never lied to me. When I found that thing in the shower she came clean straight away.  She told me everything even knowing how I would react. She came clean again knowing there was every chance we would split when I asked her about her birthday.  When the counseling wasn't working she spoke openly about it even though she knew that was effectively the end of us.  Obviously there's many other times unrelated to this where she's always been truthful.
So her track record is good. Why am I struggling to believe her about this now? I'm hoping it's just me being cautious. 
I guess my real struggle is trust, that's everything in a marriage, and as suggested I doubt I'll ever be able to find the truth.
I'm worried that if I just sweep this under the carpet or force myself to trust her that someday in the future it will raise it's ugly head.

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, trident_2020 said:

@elaine567in my defense it's 8 am here and I am only partially through my morning cup of coffee.

I'll let you off...
The problem with cheaters is that the betrayed tend to think the cheater is clueless when in fact the cheater is often very clued up.
Cheating does not stop them from looking at the internet, going on forums, finding handy guides to prevent being found out, finding ways to sneak around successfully, managing their spouse and their AP,  managing finances in the event of a divorce etc. etc.
Yes there are the clueless but most cheaters look out for number one and they can't do that if their head is in the sand..
It is the betrayed who are usually clueless as they are often innocent souls who were totally blindsided.

[Marc878]

19 minutes ago, Steve2021 said:

Do you think it's possible she never acted on her fantasy?
Here's my thinking, as flawed as it may be. She's never lied to me. When I found that thing in the shower she came clean straight away.  She told me everything even knowing how I would react. She came clean again knowing there was every chance we would split when I asked her about her birthday.  When the counseling wasn't working she spoke openly about it even though she knew that was effectively the end of us.  Obviously there's many other times unrelated to this where she's always been truthful.
So her track record is good. Why am I struggling to believe her about this now? I'm hoping it's just me being cautious. 
I guess my real struggle is trust, that's everything in a marriage, and as suggested I doubt I'll ever be able to find the truth.
I'm worried that if I just sweep this under the carpet or force myself to trust her that someday in the future it will raise it's ugly head.

Possible yes, probable no.

Just about every betrayed person who comes here up front has these famous last words.

They'd never lie to me.

They’d never cheat. That’s not who they are. 
 

You need to look at actions versus words. 
 

It’s in her best interest to do what in order to get her comfortable life back?

Right now you’ve got yourself in denial because you don’t want to deal with the truth (her action).

Edited February 6, 2021 by Marc878

[Marc878]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I'll let you off...
The problem with cheaters is that the betrayed tend to think the cheater is clueless when in fact the cheater is often very clued up.
Cheating does not stop them from looking at the internet, going on forums, finding handy guides to prevent being found out, finding ways to sneak around successfully, managing their spouse and their AP,  managing finances in the event of a divorce etc. etc.
Yes there are the clueless but most cheaters look out for number one and they can't do that if their head is in the sand..
It is the betrayed who are usually clueless as they are often innocent souls who were totally blindsided.

This ^^^^^^^

[trident_2020]

4 minutes ago, Marc878 said:

Right now you’ve got yourself in denial because you don’t want to deal with the truth (her action).

He's not in denial. He's considering the possibility that she fulfilled her two penis fantasy.

[Marc878]

1 minute ago, trident_2020 said:

He's not in denial. He's considering the possibility that she fulfilled her two penis fantasy.

Maybe but most just can’t believe it upfront. Time may tell.

[lana-banana]

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that when faced with the reality of a life without you she simply realized her fantasy wasn't that important. I agree that polygraphs aren't valid, but her willingness to take one is a good sign---it's not often that people volunteer for them in the private sector. In the very unlikely event that she attempted to act on her fantasy...so what? It doesn't change the end result: that she wants you and your marriage. Isn't that what counts?

You would both benefit from counseling, independent and together. If you wanted to make that a stipulation for proceeding it could help you out.

[Lotsgoingon]

Just go slow ... Go out on some dates with her. Talk, ask the questions you want to ask. See if your trust builds without you taking a dangerous leap. You should feel physiologically reassured. If you just feel intellectually reassured, then slow down. 

And ask her all the questions you want to ask, including what she learned in therapy that allowed her to give up this fetish. BTW: pay attention to any weasel-words she gives for her fetish and her desires. Sometimes people try to communicate clarity with their tone ... but the words suggest lack of clarity. You want to pay attention to her words and to the body language.

Just go slow. Don't move in tomorrow. But take a couple of months to see if it makes sense for you guys to reconcile. There is a chance that you guys could build a new and better marriage than you had before this crisis.

[Uruktopi]

35 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

...so what? It doesn't change the end result: that she wants you and your marriage. Isn't that what counts?

 

No.

Good but hardly enough.

[HappilyMarried]

I agree with @Lotsgoingonvery good post just take it slow talk to her and ask what go her to want this fetish? Then why now the change of heart? Then if you guys are back to having sex what are some fantasies you two could share together in the bedroom.

[Marc878]

2 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Just go slow ... Go out on some dates with her. Talk, ask the questions you want to ask. See if your trust builds without you taking a dangerous leap. You should feel physiologically reassured. If you just feel intellectually reassured, then slow down. 

And ask her all the questions you want to ask, including what she learned in therapy that allowed her to give up this fetish. BTW: pay attention to any weasel-words she gives for her fetish and her desires. Sometimes people try to communicate clarity with their tone ... but the words suggest lack of clarity. You want to pay attention to her words and to the body language.

Just go slow. Don't move in tomorrow. But take a couple of months to see if it makes sense for you guys to reconcile. There is a chance that you guys could build a new and better marriage than you had before this crisis.

Beware

Often when someone steps out of the marriage they want back in for the comfortable lifestyle not necessarily because they’ve changed or want the marriage.

[Wiseman2]

21 hours ago, Steve2021 said:

She offered to do a polygraph but ...

You're separated and for a good reason. Proceed with the divorce. Forget ridiculous "infidelity" tests.

You left (for good reason) so there's no infidelity.

Talk to an attorney and stop wasting time on her plastic or flesh issues or "infidelity tests".

 

[Steve2021]

I’m not sure I’m going to be able to articulate this the way I would like as this is all still messed up in my head but I’ll give it a go.

I believe she is being honest, or more accurately I don’t have any evidence she is not and history suggests she’s always been honest even to her own detriment.  If she’s being honest then there’s no reason not to pursue getting back together. But… I just can’t stop a nagging feeling, a what if…

The thing that most impresses me is that even after we stopped seeing the couples counselor she kept seeing hers, even as we split, even after, even still now. She’s even invited me to come and speak to the counselor. Taking emotions out of the equation as much as one can, I can’t see why she would do all that yet still go and find her fantasy partners. But… I still have that nagging feeling.

It’s really confusing. On one hand I have so much respect for her for being so open to share what she wanted. On the other hand she did keep it secret for quite a while before I found out which gives me that nagging feeling that she might just be able to keep a secret that she actually did it.

Then after all that I ask myself if it even matters. It certainly would if we were together, there would be no coming back from that, but is it the same if she did it whilst we were apart? She hasn’t asked me if I did anything when we were apart, do I even have the right to ask her?  I guess I do given the situation right?

I think it’s just a matter of time. Either time will help me see she is genuine or it will catch her out in some lie that will end us for good.  As suggested, keep dating, ask questions, no questions off limits and listen to not only what is being said but what isn’t.

Does that sound like a plan?

I just feel some guilt as I’m proceeding with this thinking a lie is coming instead of being totally committed to a reconnection.

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Steve2021 said:

.  If she’s being honest then there’s no reason not to pursue getting back together. 

Yes there is. You did not separate because of infidelity or dishonesty.

You separated because you claim her double team fantasies get on your nerves.

[Steve2021]

She told me she wanted to try this double penetration thing with two real people, not toys. How can that not get on one's nerves? She had just told me she wanted to have sex with another person, or two other people if I didn't want to ne involved. You're not normal if that doesn't get on your nerves. I would have been fine with it as a fantasy but she legitimately wanted to do that, place profiles on sites and all that sort of thing. 
If she has not proceeded with the fantasy and she's worked on herself and is confident it can remain a fantasy then I'm relatively comfortable with that.  
If she did proceed while we were apart but now never wishes to again then it's a little more complicated. I'm still working on how I feel about that.

[Wiseman2]

Just now, Steve2021 said:

She told me she wanted to try this double penetration thing with two real people

Talk to your attorney. You're not compatible anymore. If your story is accurate, your attorney will have no problems helping you.

[Steve2021]

Maybe you are right, maybe we are not compatible anymore, but I'm not at that stage yet. I still believe, you will probably say naively, that we have a good chance depending on exactly how the cards fall. 
I'd rather see how those cards fall before engaging an attorney. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

OP, be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water. In other words, is there a more perfect woman out there who will fit you more perfectly? Is dealing with the hassle of her fantasy worse than dealing with dating new people? Are you prepared to live your life alone if you ditch her and can't find anyone better?

I don't mean to downplay your concerns. I just don't see a toy as the same as humans. I read that you're most concerned about her acting out her fantasy with humans, which is not what you want. So long as she respects that boundary (and perhaps can find a way that's acceptable to both of you...such as exploring why double penetration is exciting to her and finding alternate ways to address that), then don't you think there's something here worth saving? Obviously if she straight up cheated my sentiments would be different. 

Nobody is totally perfect.  Be realistic and pragmatic. I hope this doesn't offend you, but I felt you getting angry with her over the double dildo was a little controlling. I can understand that perhaps you didn't like her hiding it from you, but perhaps she was afraid of your reaction if she shared it. Have you considered why it (ie dildo) upset you so much? Just check if it bruised your ego (bc that would be something for you to work on).

I'm just trying to give you some perspectives you may not have considered. Also, please don't make her into a bad person for having a fantasy. Don't shame her for her feelings. Fantasies are natural even though they may never be acted on. It probably has something to do with primordial instincts, power plays, or wanting to feel more desired, or something along those lines. 

Use this as an opportunity for each of you to grow as individuals, and hopefully grow your relationship, too. Good luck! 

[Steve2021]

I've had time to reflect and I sort of agree with you to an extent.  My reaction at the sex toy was unwarranted but that was quickly put aside with her admission that she wanted that fantasy as a reality.  I have no problem with the fantasy, but you have to understand we had long discussions about this and for weeks, maybe months she was effectively telling me she wanted to have sex with other guys.  Not a fantasy of doing that but actually wanted us to make it become a reality.  Did that bruise my ego?  I'm sure it did, but I guess I was too angry at the time to notice.  I'm not sure how any man can listen to his wife telling him she longs to have sex with other men in real life, not a fantasy, and not react negatively to it.
 We had so much good in our relationship, I don't want to let it go, but right now there is no trust.  I hate to say that, I know what it means, but I just can't find it in me to believe she's being totally truthful.  If that's more on me than her then so be it.  Will time heal that?  I hope so, but can we survive until that time?  I really don't know.