break up aftermath and confusion

[Dee__]

So, I'm a little late on this one because we've been broken up for a few months now, but things haven't actually ended.

I've had a hard time dealing with it and making sense of things in the aftermath, as well as cutting ties because a panic attack trigger of mine is rejecting a loved one (in this scenario, blocking or unfriending her). So I'm gonna do my best to keep my feelings out of things and use quotes so that the feedback I get reflects things accurately:

I broke things off after a few months because I didn't like the way she was treating me. She's one of the most kind and sweet people I've ever known, but she wasn't really a good partner. She gaslighted my emotional experience using silence, calling the things in question a joke, or by turning it around and blaming me for her feeling bad. So eventually I wasn't able to talk about anything.

I noted early on she had self esteem issues because she was always negging herself around me, apologizing for existing, etc. She's had some communication issues with talking about her feelings directly, good or bad. So I struggled a lot with trying to be patient and wait for her to tell me how she felt.

Very rarely did she speak about her feelings directly...sexual advances weren't direct (think having me take her shirt off, or being nude around...no active initiation), she said she felt that she loved me, but it took her two additional months after I said it to actually say it, and she'd never acknowledge her negative feelings (always denied them being there or didn't talk about them).

She's never struck me as a mean or nasty person, but I think she was pretty passive aggressive - often, I might come to know she's mad because she changed her snapchat bitmoji (even after denying it to me), or routine communication (like daily good morning texts) would stop if she were upset, even showing up to pick up her things from my house in a dress (she doesn't wear them often).

She also lives with her best friend and best friend's husband, which will come into play later. 

As for the break up, we had the talk about breaking up. During the talk she stopped talking to me to start asking her best friend stuff (I found out a few minutes later that's what was going on, she didn't initially tell me) which amounted to "how do you get someone to see your point of view."

She started grabbing some of her stuff before we had made any kind of resolution, and eventually left, asking if I wanted to be FwB after.

The next morning she texted me asking if I was ok, like we hadn't just had that talk and she didn't just walk out in it. So we argued some more over text, and I pointed out how the foundation of the relationship was laid on some pretty stressful foundations (making her friends liking me a requirement for the relationship, something they called the "gauntlet" for new partners, living with her friends, etc.).

Her best friend texted me on her phone, and I'm paraphrasing it, but said my ex never said anything negative about me and her feelings about me are all her own. She said I was abusive because:

- I never once praised my ex in her presence.

- I made jokes at her expense

- I was argumentative, and "repeated unwillingness to dignify the presence of people who matter to Stevie"

- I have said things to lead her to believe things about herself and about her other relationships that are viscerally untrue.

- And that my ex asked her to give me this feedback.

I don't really have any feelings about her friends' character, but I'll list some of the things my EX said about them and what they say/do: her best friend told her "you're not special" the first time we went to meet (it was a long drive); she told me that her best friend was constantly trying to figure out what she saw in me; she told me that her best friend hasn't liked any men she's talked to; she told me that her best friend said she wouldn't hang out with her if I was there, and she made me feel unwelcome; every time she asked her best friend for advice it was always, "[never mind] him" and she was going to take what she said with a grain of salt.

That was all less than 2 months into our relationship.

 Curious what you guys think of that interaction as well as the rest?

Anyway, so after a couple days, I apologized for my portion of the argument and how it got out of control. She came over and got her stuff and said that her friends all thought she wasn't safe with me, that they were worried about her safety. Which, as a giver, is probably the most hurtful thing you could say to me. Neither did I really understand where it was coming from, and she said she didn't know why they felt that way either. I asked about the FwB again, but this time the answer changed to "I don't think that's in our best interest." The two best friends actually showed up with her to get the stuff too.

So a week goes by and she gets some space to think and decides she wants to get back together. We talk for about a month, things are much slower than normal but we agreed to be slow. No fights, no arguments just day to day conversation, eventually returning to exchanging "I miss you's" and "I love you's" - much of which I wasn't initiating, to give her space still.

We had another talk about deciding if she needed her friends' approval of the relationship because at this juncture they didn't approve.

She sets up a day for us to have some couples time but is unable to make it last minute, so I was upset but I didn't say anything. I gave it a couple days to see if she'd reschedule and when she didn't, I texted her asking about it. She said "I'm the worst," and that now she didn't have time for a relationship (we're both remarkably busy people).

Just out of the blue, didn't tell me until I asked that she decided not to continue. So we ended up arguing some more and I got silence. Packed up the rest of her stuff and brought it to her.

A few days later, she apologizes to me for "dealing with her being bad", and that she's taking the last of the depression medication (she was on it the last month or so of the relationship) and could see the positive effects already.

Then started talking about how she hadn't had an orgasm since the last time we were together. She started texting more frequently but it lead to another argument where she said we were done but not because of feelings, because our lifestyles were different. She then accused me of saying I didn't care about her friends or family. I never actually said anything like that - I told her I liked her family (more than her friends) and that I wasn't going to go out of my way to be friends with her friends, that the relationship was my main focus, and if friendship came naturally I was cool with that.

More silence, so another unresolved argument.

The next week she's at the beach in anther state for the weekend...A couple days after that she directly (I was very surprised) asked if I wanted a booty call. I said ok, but she eventually backed out of that, citing being tired.

I texted her the next day to do it, and she said she'd let me know. Also backed out of that. At this time, we're not really talking at all, but she'll send little things every once and a while like forgetting her car keys and how I'd get a kick out of that (it's not an inside joke, or habit, I generally didn't laugh at things like or make jokes about them).

A few days later, I asked her if she was seeing someone else (the beach retreat got me in my feels) and that turned into her saying her people weren't comfortable around me anymore so she was looking for another FwB that fit her lifestyle (again, deciding to end things without actually telling me).

I said ok, and left it at that.

She texted me a couple days later about the beach retreat, and apologizing for not paying for my dogs medication (she works at the vet hospital my dog goes too, but we never discussed her paying for anything, I don't know why she apologized for that or how she found out).

I didn't reply to that message.

A week goes by and she posts pictures of her and her FwB together (she never posted pictures of her and I together, just my dog).

I happened to reach out just before she posted them to tell her to get the title stuff for the car figured out so I could take her off my insurance.

After she posted, I got upset and said "all that feeling and I can't get one picture of us together?" She replied a few days later with "I shouldn't enable but I'd like to point out I was the only one who posted pictures of us together. Title hasn't arrive yet."

I got upset because it was a mischaracterization, and she hadn't ever posted us as a couple, so we argued again, this time pretty badly. She told me that she wanted to have a productive conversation, and could see that we made the right choice to separate because I was using this chance to point the finger at her.

I was already fed up with the hot/cold bs, confusion, and lack of answers (she also made me feel bad about my own confusion, like when I asked in the relationship and after for why she was doing something that hurt me, she'd often take it personal and use her feeling bad now against me) built up and I told her truth: my experience with her as a partner was very negative.

She gaslight me, she refused to take responsibility for her actions, she assumed negative interactions about us, she forced me to compliment her on demand (when I started out doing it to begin with) while also constantly putting herself down, all while having poor communication skills.

Her outlook in the relationship was usually negative. As someone that prides herself on being positive, she said, this made her feel like she failed and she hated that.

Silence again.

A few days later I apologized because I didn't really do a good job listening to her experience and I wanted the chance to listen without adding my experience to the mix.

No reply.

A week later she posts a meme to her FB and comments on it quoting me twice (in the last argument I told her she was negative, and throughout the relationship I maintained she couldn't handle criticism (she took everything personally).

At that point, I intervened again, because [well], I'm tired of not being heard so I pointed out how her resorting to this outlet kind of proves my point about her not being able to handle criticism. But I also wanted to address the elephant in the room, so I made another apology on the post. In her reply, she told me that she's not responsible for someone else having a bad day and she was handling it as best she could, i.e. I said what I said in the last argument out of anger (which is true), so it's not a reflection of what I actually experienced (which isn't true, I just stopped caring about managing her feelings).

She also mentioned that she only texted me to let me know how to fix myself so I didn't hurt others. Does this raise any eyebrows for anyone?

Her roommates (the best friend and husband) unblocked me to argue. Her best friend said that my ex had been nothing but kind and patient with me since the break up, and I shouldn't be soliciting her for emotional labor since I have a therapist, or making a public apology to get people to think I'm a good guy.

My reply was that stringing me along for months after the relationship ended is hardly 'kind and patient.'

Now, I'm not proud of this interaction at all, I knew I shouldn't have done it, but if I can be honest, it really felt like I stood up to a bully then. I felt kind of accomplished.

She removed the post the next day, and reposted the meme without the comments. So this scorched earth bought me a few weeks worth of silence.

She posts a picture with the FwB again just after Thanksgiving.

She reached out once to update me on the title thing a week after this, but then after Thanksgiving, when she didn't give an update, I texted her about one.

That text lead her to saying she hoped I didn't think she was using this to stay in touch - I said no - then she asked me how the holidays went, then how my dog was doing (I asked about her animals, but didn't get a reply). Then she offered up one of the stray kittens she took in while we were together (I wasn't ever attached to the cat, in fact, I told her it couldn't come with us when we move in together and I didn't really like cats).

So I spent the next few days deciding if I wanted to try the cat out. My main focus was not the cat though, I didn't have any concrete evidence, but on the off chance she was using the cat to re-enter my life, I had to decide if I wanted that (just to be safe).

In our silence, I got in a really good spot emotionally - was volunteering, people commenting on how they've never seen me happier, etc. So I decided to try the cat out (since her and my dog got along).

She brought the cat over, didn't stay longer than 4 minutes, and for the next day or so all conversation was about the cat, and checking on the cat.

Then the next day she checked in again, but the conversation moved (by her doing) to how she was leaving work early because she felt sick. I brought some old dog food over, but she had fallen asleep and apologized the next day about missing me when I came.

The cat has some scratching issue, so I make an appointment about it and ask her if it was an issue before.

The next day she asks how I'm doing, and that she will get some stuff for me at the vet hospital, then says she wants to take my dog for a few days.

So at this point, we went from not talking at all, to talking about the title issue, to the cat, to us, and now taking my dog for a few days (something she used to do in the relationship). And we've been talking everyday.

At this point, I was fairly certain we were moving towards getting back together, and the FwB is gone. She tells me how everyone missed Bailey (my dog) at work and how she does.

Then the next day, Bailey gets in a scuffle with her best friends' dog. Not a big issue, they all work at a vet place, and there's a lot of dogs around the farm there. Nobody panics over this stuff, but for some reason she says that best friends husband is livid over it.

Communication dies at this point.

I ask how the other dog is and get "he's ok." I ask how she's doing or how everyone else is "I'm fine, thanks", "they're fine."

I pick Bailey up and forget to take the shock collar off her that belongs to my ex, so I tell her and try to strike up convo and her only reply is "k."

Now I think I can count on one hand how many times I've received that reply from her. I ask if she's ok - days pass and no reply.

Conversations completely gone now, I don't know what happened at all. So the cat's not working out, and I used it to see if she's available by phone so I text that its not working. She replies 'quick...bring the cat back', and she offers a different one (I don't even know this one) and I say no.

There's some conversation over the next month, but it just seems off.

Not often, and just suggestions on what to do in free time.

New Year's rolls around and it's eating me up: I can't figure out how things speed up so quickly and just died, and I got no feedback about what happened. Just a couple of texts here and there about the cat, or something else.

In December, it looks like the friends and her fought over something, and it was shortly after she took Bailey, but I can't say for certain.

The one time I asked about it she told me that I "always twist things up so it's best for her to figure it out on her own." I told her I'd just listen if that's what she wanted, but she leaves that on read.

So I ask why things ground to a halt all of sudden, what happened. She says she's mostly fine, asks me how my holidays were. I ask what mostly fine means and she doesn't elaborate, nor does she talk about what she did on the holidays other than it being "work" and "light" (despite going to another state for Bush Gardens).

Title thing gets us talking again because it's still unresolved (but this ends up being my fault, legitimately). So I scramble to resolve it without impacting her day to day life, so while she's at work I'm getting inspections on the car done and everything so I can fix the title.

We go to the title place but end up having to wait for a while so we wait in her car. She asks about me and my weekends, what I've been up to (she looks happy now), and I eventually get some information about what happened with Bailey that one night and it was - best friend has no patience for anything related to me, and its not worth all the problems.

She eventually posts a FB thing about intimacy not having to be sexual and it really jogs my memory of us - so I said something to her about that. She agreed too. I told her I missed her and she says she's not sure how to appropriately reply to that, and that of course there's things we'd miss about the relationship, that she wants to be friends still.

I climb out near where she lives and I ran into her with the FwB and with a person she was talking to before me (but she never liked). So I ended up texting under the influence of Ambient about what it would take for me to make it work (which is a lot like being drunk, if you don't know, but it doesn't necessarily mean I didn't want to get back with her).

She says she doesn't think it can because of all the social situations she's in, and "like even though I know different, every person who met 'us' thinks you were very negative for me - no matter how much I told them one on one you were fine even now", which kinda alludes to the idea she might've tried getting back together with the whole Bailey thing.

So I asked her to clarify if I being a private lover was being held against me (because that's what it sounds like - I do MOST of my complimenting, loving, touching, etc. in private).

No answer.

She said every one of her people thought our interactions went badly as friends despite me feeling like they were ok, and not negative.

So this conversation spans across a couple of days.

She actually takes a lot of shots at me, but I wanted to also put my money where my mouth is and just listen to her experience more than share my own, so I took it and eventually reminded her of things she said about the relationship.

During all the depression:

- I was the only good thing going on in her life.

- I was good to her.

- She felt safe/secure.

- I was her reprieve.

- She felt loved.

 That lead to her saying I was there for her during a crappy time in her life (and for the first time in a very long time, I felt good about myself as a partner in our relationship).

She also mentioned how it felt like she had to referee her friends vs. me and it felt awful. I agreed, and apologized, and said me and the friends should've talked about things rather than force her in the middle of it. That was our responsibility as her loved ones not hers, and we dropped the ball.

The conversation ended there.

No reply.

I resolved to believe it didn't change anything, because she said no to start with, and I didn't get a direct yes by the end of it.

So break: by this time, I've literally only reached out to her in the beginning of the break up, about the title, and just now about missing her over a 5 month period.

Every bit of contact otherwise has been her.

That part, to me is important, because during the relationship and after I very clearly told her I don't stay friends with ex's and I wouldn't want to talk anymore unless we were fixing things or moving in that direction.

So after me asking what it would take to get back together, the next day she texts to tell me I better enjoy the sunshine out today (small conversation but ends in silence again).

 A few days later, she texts again to tell me she's on a road trip (alone) going to check out this horse she's very excited for. So, I'm feeling pretty good like this wouldn't bother me, and I indulge.

We talk about the horse and things for the next couple days with her re-engaging the start of the next day. This is kind of novel, because she's surrounded by friends and family into horses. I am not, or don't know that I am. We also never really talked about them that much when we were together.

A few days go by and she asks me if I'm doing ok out of the blue. I said yeah, why and she replied with "people can ask just to ask", and I asked if she was ok and she yes.

A week later she sends me a post about an MMA gym opening up soon (MMA is like my top 3 fav things to do). At this point, I'm thinking there's no direct evidence she wants to get back together, but at the very least, she looks like she's looking for my attention. I was ok with that.

So I get the title thing done yesterday and bring it to her. She asks me how I'm doing, what I'm doing this weekend etc.,  so I told her I was getting my truck back probably, and seeing if Kate (the ex a few prior to her) would watch Bailey for me when I leave for a week.

Now she has a horse business, and boards dogs. If anything, I thought she'd be upset I didn't bother to ask her. So she fights for it, like legit. She says Kate's dumb and to let her watch Bailey, and I reminded her that she said she didn't want to deal with the issue of her best friend with Bailey coming over, and that I didn't want my dog over there where she'd be hated by proxy to me.

She replied she didn't care what they thought, and to let her watch Bailey. Said she was cooler.

At this point, I was kinda baffled at how she also didn't get the picture beforehand: if I'm asking Kate, then I clearly don't want her to do it. She doesn't seem to be taking no for an answer, so I just said we'll see.

I leave and I send her the insurance information she requested later, and she dove right back into Bailey. This time she offers a coworker to watch for me, and makes sure to say she'll take Bailey if not. I told her to ask the coworker if they were comfortable with me having their contact info, and she offers another friend (who comes over daily) to watch Bailey. So I said if the coworker doesn't pan out I'm gonna let Kate watch her, and she replies again that Kate's dumb and she would take her. What in the hell is going on??

Today I go to Chiro, which is in her area and I see her holding hands with the FwB and she's with her friends.

I haven't seen her pictured with him since Thanksgiving. I thought he was gone.

Now, I'm not happy. Now I'm wondering if he was there this whole time? Was he there when we first got back together too? Are the pictures just being hidden from me now?

I was ok with being used for attention, but not at someone else's expense.

I message her and say, "the moment I asked about getting back together you should've told me you were talking/with someone, not having a conversation across multiple days about what needed to be fixed for us. After rejecting it, you randomly hit me in for attention, and while I was ok with that, I'm not ok with you doing that at someone else's expense. On top of that, I've made it very clear I didn't want to talk unless we were fixing things or getting back together. You soliciting my attention was incredibly inappropriate, misleading, and wrong.If I had known you were with someone I wouldn't have bothered talking to you, and I'm pretty sure you knew/know that. Please don't talk to me again."

And her reply was "I wasn't seeking attention, I was checking in on you as I do people I care about. I was very clear we weren't getting back together every time you mentioned, that had zero to do with me dating anyone. I wish you the best."

So, my thing is that that conversation should've never happened. It should've gone like me saying, "hey, I want to get back together, how do we do that?" and her saying, "I've moved on, I'm with someone."

I don't feel lead on per se, but it doesn't feel honest to me either.

I made very clear boundaries after the relationship ended and she routinely crossed them. I think the argument can be made that me being polite, or indulging showed her she could cross the boundaries. That being said, does this not raise red flags with anyone else? Like, is it normal to continue trying to talk to someone after they try to get with you?

If I'm rejecting someone, I don't seek them out after...

I recognize none of what she was saying was directly suggesting romance, but what about the context of everything? In this situation, was it really just her checking in on me, or is there something else?

The relationship's affected my ability to judge situations (right from wrong) pretty badly now. Such that I don't trust my own judgments, which is why I'm here.

I'm not really looking for "she's toxic," "or you have to move on," "good riddance," etc. What I'm looking to do, so I can move on more easily, is make sense of all this.

It's confusing, I don't know what to think outside of no contact with her now. The [bolded questions] are the things I'm most interested in hearing everyone's feedback about.

Thank you for reading, I'm very longwinded, lol. I appreciate any input. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Proofreading

[Wiseman2]

You need to let go. Delete and block her and all her people from ALL your social media and messaging apps.

Leave her alone. Get to a physician about your moods, panic attacks and anxiety and get a referral to a therapist for ongoing support.

Don't be a restraining order statistic. Back off.

[ExpatInItaly]

This woman sounds like an emotionally-stunted teenager. 

Why were you so desperate to hang on this mess? 

[Dee__]

8 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You need to let go. Delete and block her and all her people from ALL your social media and messaging apps.

Leave her alone. Get to a physician about your moods, panic attacks and anxiety and get a referral to a therapist for ongoing support.

Don't be a restraining order statistic. Back off.

Thank you for the feedback. I have anti-anxiety medication, panic attack medication, and I see a therapist on a regular basis (and have for the past 7 years). I can guess the overall theme is she's bad news, but I was hoping for more specific advice about what I experienced. The confusion makes me second guess what I've learned in therapy and life. When I see something like "I'm just checking up on you," or "I was very clear..." and it's super in my face that that's not checking up, or seeking me or my attention out after rejecting an advance is anything but clear, it makes me question myself. It feels overwhelmingly obvious to me. The stuff in bold, in particular. I was lead to believe that I'm the reason the friend thing didn't work out, that they disliked me because of me, not for any other reason, and I'm wrong about her and everything - she's kind, and sweet, and has healthy relationships in her life.

I'm also a little unclear about what you refer to as "a restraining order statistic." Am I at fault here? 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Dee__
misread something

[Dee__]

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This woman sounds like an emotionally-stunted teenager. 

Why were you so desperate to hang on this mess? 

Thanks for reaching out!

I have my own mental health issues, so generally I err on the side of progress - as long as the relationship makes progress I'm cool with things. She also kind of hit every checkbox when it came to the things I was looking for, but similarly, hit a lot of the bad ones too. At first, it wasn't bad. She listened to what I experienced, and she tried changing. Like her communication skills, for example, were definitely improving. It just eventually turned into "he makes me feel bad, so I'm going elsewhere."

But she's feeling bad in response to things like, "I think we need more time as a couple. Time winding down is great, but only one piece of the puzzle and this is a fresh relationship," or "blaming me for how you feel isn't healthy or productive."

She just took everything incredibly personal to the point I felt like I couldn't tie my shoe without it becoming about her, then her distancing herself from me, and just showing back up like nothing happened. 

What are your thoughts on the bold items I wrote about?

Edited February 7, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
added paragraphs

[ExpatInItaly]

23 minutes ago, Dee__ said:

What are your thoughts on the bold items I wrote about?

Honestly, it's a bit hard to wade through the tremendous amount of detail in your post and follow the chain of events, but my thoughts on the bolded in general?

I think she is entitled and immature, and likes your attention but isn't all that into you as a person. 

I think her friends are completely over-involved in her life to a bizarre and abnormal degree, but I also don't believe it was her "best friend" texting you from her phone listing all the things she didn't like about you. I don't believe for one second that it wasn't your ex herself. She has a very strange way of insulting you but pretending it's all coming from the mouths of other people. 

How old are the both of you, if I may ask?

 

[Dee__]

1 hour ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Honestly, it's a bit hard to wade through the tremendous amount of detail in your post and follow the chain of events, but my thoughts on the bolded in general?

I think she is entitled and immature, and likes your attention but isn't all that into you as a person. 

I think her friends are completely over-involved in her life to a bizarre and abnormal degree, but I also don't believe it was her "best friend" texting you from her phone listing all the things she didn't like about you. I don't believe for one second that it wasn't your ex herself. She has a very strange way of insulting you but pretending it's all coming from the mouths of other people. 

How old are the both of you, if I may ask?

 

I understand, lol. I'm longwinded, and I tend to over describe things just to be safe and understood. But I really appreciate your feedback and help!

@ "into me as a person" That didn't always feel like the case, but I can't argue that it's definitely not about me or my feelings anymore. 

@friends - I said the same. I told her in the beginning of the relationship I believed they were too invasive and it worried me. They seem to be very judgmental, and as my therapist put it: it's never really seemed about being my friend as much as it was about making me prove myself to them. I've had other people say similar about using her friends to speak for herself. It's not uncommon among passive aggressive people, but with that being said, the situation's fairly muddy when you consider the things her best friend has said and done (and my argument with the best friend before Thanksgiving). It's definitely possible the best friend stepped in.

I also intentionally left out the stuff they did that I had issues with and the stuff I have done for them, because I wanted this stuff the forum members to see to be based entirely off the things my ex had said, not my interpretations or interactions. So it's revealing, to say the least, that you come to the conclusion without my input pretty much.

Some of the things I did: 

- They live on a farm, so I took up mowing the farm on the weekends so she could get more time with her best friend.

- I cooked /helped cook on Saturdays for the group and bought all of the food every time for everyone; and during the relationship my ex had a depressive stint and the friends asked me to talk to them about what was going on and try to help her (and I eventually got her to go see a doctor albeit briefly);

- I bought breakfast for everyone at the vet hospital they work at a few times (so they didn't feel left out when I brought stuff for my ex).

-  I asked them to go to Halloween Horror Nights with me and my ex, and solicited them for shared hobbies like boardgames, card games, pay per view events, etc.

That's kind of what makes things incredibly confusing when they say have nothing but bad experiences with me and the way I treated my ex...like that should be a huge red flag for my ex I feel like: they definitely have a lot of positive experience and interaction to go off of, not exclusively the criteria they gave for abuse and bad interaction.

Im 32, she's 34.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
added paragraphs and spacing.

[maggiemtn]

I think the most sense you can make of all of this is that you acted like a doormat and she walked on you and you repeatedly let her. A lot of people will do that if they find someone who will just take whatever they feel like giving. You need to work on self-esteem and self-worth. You simply settled and accepted someone who treated you terribly. I’m sorry it happened to you but if you want to specifically make sense of it, you need to know that’s 100% on you, no one else. Which is awesome because you can totally fix that! Learn and move forward. 

[Dee__]

32 minutes ago, maggiemtn said:

I think the most sense you can make of all of this is that you acted like a doormat and she walked on you and you repeatedly let her. A lot of people will do that if they find someone who will just take whatever they feel like giving. You need to work on self-esteem and self-worth. You simply settled and accepted someone who treated you terribly. I’m sorry it happened to you but if you want to specifically make sense of it, you need to know that’s 100% on you, no one else. Which is awesome because you can totally fix that! Learn and move forward. 

Do you find her friendship and their involvement to be reasonable or healthy?

[maggiemtn]

2 minutes ago, Dee__ said:

Do you find her friendship and their involvement to be reasonable or healthy?

I have no idea, it was way too much information for me to wade through. Do you find it healthy or reasonable to be going back and forth with a toxic relationship five months after you first broke up? Probably a more helpful question. 

[Dee__]

1 minute ago, maggiemtn said:

I have no idea, it was way too much information for me to wade through. Do you find it healthy or reasonable to be going back and forth with a toxic relationship five months after you first broke up? Probably a more helpful question. 

I agree it’s a more helpful question, but in this context I’m looking for the more specific answers to the confusion. Unlike prior, I’ve removed her from social media, started no contact, etc. Now. It’s just a matter of making things more digestible, and easier to cope (for me specifically), while I disconnect. Having a panic attack trigger from rejecting a loved one (such as going no contact) makes what would ordinarily feel or seem like a no brainer, far more difficult for me. 

[maggiemtn]

Sorry, what confusion specifically? You wrote a lot so can you condense it down to what you want answered? Is it why she acted a certain way after you broke up? Coming and going? The most likely answer is that she knew she could use you and did so. But I don’t know that for sure. No one here can get inside her head, and neither can you. You have to figure out a way to move on while understanding you’ll never be able to make the past fit into a specific shape of an exact container you can store in your head. When relationships end, we’re never given all the answers. And even if we get the answers we *think* we want, it usually ends up causing pain and prolonging sadness. 

[Dee__]

1 hour ago, maggiemtn said:

Sorry, what confusion specifically? You wrote a lot so can you condense it down to what you want answered? Is it why she acted a certain way after you broke up? Coming and going? The most likely answer is that she knew she could use you and did so. But I don’t know that for sure. No one here can get inside her head, and neither can you. You have to figure out a way to move on while understanding you’ll never be able to make the past fit into a specific shape of an exact container you can store in your head. When relationships end, we’re never given all the answers. And even if we get the answers we *think* we want, it usually ends up causing pain and prolonging sadness. 

The things that are confusing to me are:

-if others consider her friends involvement normal or permissible;

-how she can say something like "I was just checking up on you" when it feels obvious it wasn't about checking up on me (like with the horses talk - she didn't even ask about me);

-how she considers herself to be "clear about not getting back together," while actively seeking conversation/attention from someone she just turned down a romantic advance from - it doesn't make sense to me that you would even continue talking to someone that just tried getting back together with you much less have a conversation about what needed to change for things to work spread over more than one day. In the past, she's turned down guys outright and said she was with someone (me) at the time, and doesn't seek conversation further with them so its clear she knows its not something you generally do;

-why she fought so hard to dogsit my dog when it felt clear to me that I didn't want to have her watch my dog;

-and if the one interaction that ended with me telling her my experience with her was negative, what was going on with that? She advertised it later as just trying to tell me what not to do with the next partner (so unsolicited advice) 

And you're probably right about just letting the confusion go as well. She's not just going to suddenly admit to soliciting my attention, or what she did was wrong even if that's what was happening. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Dee__
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[maggiemtn]

It’s normal to be confused but you just need to move on. The questions you want answers to do not matter to your healing and absolutely no one on here is going to know the answers, I’m sorry. 

[ExpatInItaly]

6 hours ago, Dee__ said:

if others consider her friends involvement normal or permissible;

No, but that was a red flag you chose to ignore. 

Any woman in her mid-30s who lets her "friends" meddle to this degree has issues. The problem isn't only the friends; the problem is this woman herself. The rest are irrelevant details and questions that nobody but her can answer. In the end, it doesn't matter what we think the answers are.  What matters is that you chose to involve yourself with a woman who repeatedly showed you that she is not a good relationship candidate. 

You pandered to this strange person way too much. Don't be such a doormat in the future. 

[ExpatInItaly]

8 hours ago, Dee__ said:

Having a panic attack trigger from rejecting a loved one (such as going no contact) makes what would ordinarily feel or seem like a no brainer, far more difficult for me. 

If I had to hazard guess, this has nothing to do with rejecting a loved one - and everything to do with your fear of letting go. 

You need to get real with yourself about why going no contact terrifies you so much. Stop telling yourself you fear rejecting people, when really, it appears to be the other way around. You'll never move past this if you aren't 100% honest with yourself about why you refuse to close the door on this toxic woman. 

[Dee__]

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

If I had to hazard guess, this has nothing to do with rejecting a loved one - and everything to do with your fear of letting go. 

You need to get real with yourself about why going no contact terrifies you so much. Stop telling yourself you fear rejecting people, when really, it appears to be the other way around. You'll never move past this if you aren't 100% honest with yourself about why you refuse to close the door on this toxic woman. 

I have three triggers I’ve identified over the years:

- when I realise I love someone 

- when I feel abandoned by a loved one 

- and abandoning a loved one

Identifying triggers for panic attacks associated with physical/emotional abuse received from a woman as child is about as real as it gets. I have a very real fear of abandonment by loved ones, and it evolved into including doing things that make me feel like I’m abandoning someone I care about. 
 

I’ve been in therapy a long time. This particular situation is confusing for me because she’s an extraordinary person but a bad partner. It’s been very difficult making sense of that, and this is about that confusion. It was a slow process, for her to breakdown what I know to be healthy and productive behaviors. It’s going to be a slow process rebuilding what I know to be true again. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to entertain the idea I’m wrong, especially in the relationship, under those circumstances. But as things dragged on I’ve realised being a good person doesn’t make you a good partner. 
 

i mentioned it in another post: what feels obvious to me, and is being advertised otherwise (like checking up on me), causes confusion and gets conflated with the confusion from the relationship. I’ve already gone no contact just before reaching out here. 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, Dee__ said:

I’ve been in therapy a long time. This particular situation is confusing for me because she’s an extraordinary person but a bad partner.

Is she really, though?

She doesn't sound like it. I don't mean that she's an awful person but unless you're leaving something out, she sounds rather messy. There are several odd things about her that made me think she was a lot younger than actually is. 

[Dee__]

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

No, but that was a red flag you chose to ignore. 

Any woman in her mid-30s who lets her "friends" meddle to this degree has issues. The problem isn't only the friends; the problem is this woman herself. The rest are irrelevant details and questions that nobody but her can answer. In the end, it doesn't matter what we think the answers are.  What matters is that you chose to involve yourself with a woman who repeatedly showed you that she is not a good relationship candidate. 

You pandered to this strange person way too much. Don't be such a doormat in the future. 

That’s kinda my point from the last post. I was open to the idea my approximation of healthy interaction from friends wasn’t the only way. That got taken further. These are red flags for you, but they weren’t for me. I didn’t know the boundaries. That’s the whole point I’m here. To see what others consider healthy relative to what I do. 

[Dee__]

16 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Is she really, though?

She doesn't sound like it. I don't mean that she's an awful person but unless you're leaving something out, she sounds rather messy. There are several odd things about her that made me think she was a lot younger than actually is. 

Well, consider I didn’t really talk about the relationship. It’s just been the aftermath. She’s a very kind and sweet person. Give you the shirt off her back at the drop of the hat, etc. She checked all the boxes for characteristics I wanted in a partner. I feel like it’s really easy to be mislead into thinking her interpersonal relationships are healthy if I’m conflating being a good partner with being a good person. Especially since they all seem equally as kind. With that being said, I never felt that way about her best friend at any point. 
 

you do mention something that most people bring up: she seems very immature. And that’s kind of what I figured out in my own too. My assumption was that her coming out of a 7 year relationship meant some things:

-she probably knew how to resolve conflict 

-she probably was a decent communicator 

-able to compromise 

-etc, 

 

So when I realised this wasn’t the case, I communicated my concern and she was receptive to learning how to be a healthy and productive communicator. We made progress and that’s all I was really looking for at that point. I don’t think she has underlying intent, I think she’s immature and somehow inexperienced in relationships which ultimately translated to being a bad partner. 
 

What were the odd things you saw?

Edited February 8, 2021 by Dee__
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