why my affair was toxic, MW with MM

[IfWishesWereFishes]

Interesting discussion. I think self-awareness is not the norm for us who engage in affairs. That is not a good assumption to make. I did not have any insight into what made my marriage dysfunctional. I did not have any insight into how my behaviors contributed to a dysfunctional marriage. I did not have any insight into how my husband's behaviors fed off of my behaviors and vice versa.  None of these are excuses, just the truth. Sometimes there is this perfect sh*tstorm, where, as a conflict avoidant person, you decide for years on end to just put up with things, not knowing how unhealthy you're being, not having any insight to seek therapy because you can't even really admit that anything is really wrong. In fact, you delude yourself into thinking things are fine, just fine, and that you place all the burden of an unfulfilling marriage on yourself because you think it really is all your fault.  And then something happens, a parent passes away suddenly and you find that the person who should have been there for you isn't, couldn't even muster a hug or an "I'm sorry for your loss" but instead just goes about as if nothing happened.  So you feel alone and disconnected and a friendly human who actually has emotions lends an ear and makes you feel at least okay so you can go about your business because you have to. You have to be the strong one for your mom, your sisters, your kids meanwhile continuing to work and be normal because it's what is expected of you. You're not supposed to cry or grieve, not supposed to feel. You're just supposed to be this person who can handle it all, go back to normal because death makes people uncomfortable. You find yourself alone,  except for this one human being who extends some feeling and can see you hurting. So, yeah, you know, not everything is black and white. Not all affairs are just about sex and wanting more sex and sex and sex and sex.  Sometimes, out of sheer human need for affection and intimacy that isn't found within your marriage, you make a choice to feel better. It's short-sighted. It was not well thought out.

It was finding myself emotionally alone when I needed support. And for MM, finding emotional support from me as solace from his abusive situation which got worse during the pandemic. Things aren't always cut and dried. Sometimes cheaters are just human beings who faced a sh*tstorm and don't know and have never had healthy ways of dealing with things. It was not thought-out to what happens a month from then or a year or anything. Just sometimes people in pain make ill-thought out choices that are then complicated by real feelings of friendship and love, unfortunately, found outside of marriage. And then it drives them crazy because of the type of relationship it is, one that should not exist and you try with all your might to extricate yourself, realizing all of this is toxic and of my own doing. And, want to extricate myself from both the affair and the marriage, but finding neither wants to let you go for whatever hellish reason. And even after all these terrible decisions, you think, you know, maybe I should just put on the happy face, go to my "job" of a marriage that you stay in due to feeling obligation to give your kids as normal a life as you can because divorce might be worse. It's not even because you really want to be there and haven't wanted to be there for a really long time, but you do it, put a happy face on because it's what's best for everyone else. Sure, in a perfect world, we'd all have the foresight to seek therapy, actually recognize the dysfunction, work on fixing things etc. You all give us too much credit. We don't know what we don't know until we know. And then, once we know, we then work on moving forward. 

[Snakesalive]

On 2/16/2021 at 11:51 PM, IfWishesWereFishes said:

@SMoore The madness is the really crazy part. It's like your mind rationalizes everything to accept all the deception needed to feed the affair. It's like your brain is just addicted to the feelings of euphoria. Time always seemed oddly different. It truly is being high without drugs. And your brain refuses to see all the red flags, all the toxicity. The logic just gets turned off completely.

 

I can totally relate to this -the rationalisation , the affair fog as I’ve heard referred to us definitely real . I agree these relationships are toxic and it’s only when you are out of then the fog lifts and you see the toxicity . 
Can I ask , Thinking about how you felt in the affair  would you have left  to be with him if he had felt the same ? 

[Snakesalive]

16 hours ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

When MM ghosted me the two previous times early on the relationship, I was devastated. It was hard to process how someone could one moment proclaim that you are the love of his life and then without explanation just block you from his life entirely.

Of everything this was the aspect I struggled with. We had both left our marriages, had moved in together and then he realised it was all too much -100 to zero in a matter of weeks 

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, DKT3 said:

To answer your question,  what should one do...set an example.  What that means is different for anyone in that situation.  For some it means fixing the marriage,  to others getting out.

When you are in a pit its easy to look at the task of getting out and say i can't do it. Translation,  I dont want to be uncomfortable or challenge myself even if its rainbows and butterflies on the other side.

Ok, fair enough. I was thinking along the lines of "work with your partner to try to improve the marriage, and IF that doesn't work, then strongly consider leaving as it's probably not fixable".  Think perhaps this is your way of saying this?

Kind of like when you ask your boss for a raise, better working hours, and/or whatever else you need to make the situation livable and if they can't/won't it might be best to look for another job as that one will continue to suck.

No earth-shaking revelations here. But I DID say it was softball.

🙂

[IfWishesWereFishes]

@Snakesalive Actually, he wanted us to start anew together in the beginning, but I wouldn't. I could not fathom starting somewhere new with just him. Then, whilst in the midst of the A, I wanted to just blow everything up because I hated the duplicity. But then, I'd clear my head for a bit and see that doing so would destroy everything and everyone. And he would go through this as well. Days he would say let's just blow it all up, why are we in unhappy marriages, but then he would step back after a bit too. 

So in my logical moments in the A, those were the times I tried to break it off with him. I didn't want him to resent me for his decision to leave and I did not want myself to regret leaving and blame him for my decision to leave. 

Maybe the suddenness of your MM leaving is somewhat like this. I don't doubt that he loved you, as I know that the feelings we shared were deeply emotional, but there are too many unknowns about each other too. The initial love I think is a good start (or would have been in a normal relationship), but the development of the relationship in other aspects was missing, the parts where you really get to know the person and their friends and family and they become a true part of your life. Questions like, how do they deal with difficulties in relationships? They could be like my MM. Whenever we ran into something difficult, he'd ghost rather than talk things through and try to understand what was going on (this was the hot/cold also). Some people just give up easily and choose the path of least resistance, i.e. they go back to their marriages because it's easier than having to figure out a new way. And rather than talk it through and try to work things out with you, they go from 100 to zero. The ghosting or leaving says more about them than about the person who was left behind. So, that too, though I did truly have feelings for my MM and he for me, the feelings of intense love while in the A is misleading. There isn't time to move from the "in love" phase to the committed love phase. 

[Snakesalive]

6 hours ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

Some people just give up easily and choose the path of least resistance, i.e. they

There is certainly an element of this in my relationship. Like you I’ve done lots of introspection and my therapist hasn’t given me an easy ride-i can see why I got into the relationship and that it will take more therapy and time to unpick everything. NC is certainly the way forward , he contacted me last week which I found difficult and while it temporarily set me back I know I’m on the right path to recovery 

[Findingfreedom]

On 2/17/2021 at 8:41 PM, DKT3 said:

How does cheating help? Thats a better question.  

Sticking with the work analogy,  if one is not favored by the boss would you make it worse by being more difficult,  missing work, intentionally messing up projects? That's what affair do.

I've gone in circles on this part. No one is ever stuck in a bad marriage,  people stay in bad marriages because they are still personally beneficial. 

How do you handle it if you "feel" stuck? Honesty,  tell your spouse how you feel, what you expect and what will happen if you don't get it.

No matter how you twist it up and bury it in rubbish, affair are never the answer or only option. 

There are many people who are stuck in bad marriages for various reasons. That’s a blanket statement you made. And not true at all. Do you have any idea how many woman get killed by their spouses trying to leave the marriage?? What about people that have no other family to support them... or people that have no money and live in low income areas with children to think about. I’m not saying affairs are the way out but to say that people stay because they are somehow beneficial is way off the mark. 

[DKT3]

2 hours ago, Findingfreedom said:

There are many people who are stuck in bad marriages for various reasons. That’s a blanket statement you made. And not true at all. Do you have any idea how many woman get killed by their spouses trying to leave the marriage?? What about people that have no other family to support them... or people that have no money and live in low income areas with children to think about. I’m not saying affairs are the way out but to say that people stay because they are somehow beneficial is way off the mark. 

Far fewer then those having affairs, so kinda a cop out in this situation. 

 

No no, no one is stuck. As I stated they don't want to be uncomfortable even if the reward is a much better situation. 

[IfWishesWereFishes]

@Snakesalive When he contacted you last week, was he doing so in the hopes of rekindling things with you? I sometimes wonder if the waffling, push/pull is the MM wanting parts of both relationships, keeping options open should things work out one way or another.

 Though, ultimately... I don't even want to wonder about it. I just want to really get to that place where I don't care at all.  Each day of NC is so wildly different, some days are really tough, like today. Just my brain won't stop thinking of him. It's hard to deal when good memories surface.

[IfWishesWereFishes]

As for why people stay and feel stuck. Sometimes we can't confront bad behaviors and put up with things we shouldn't in a marriage. Sometimes we don't recognize that our relationship with our spouse is unhealthy, if not abusive. and people do stay in abusive relationships far more often than not because to leave does sometimes mean violence either towards the spouse or the children. Not everyone is healthy nor balanced and choose to stay because they're "comfortable."

[Findingfreedom]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Far fewer then those having affairs, so kinda a cop out in this situation. 

 

No no, no one is stuck. As I stated they don't want to be uncomfortable even if the reward is a much better situation. 

Not fewer... sorry your wrong. Do your research. A lot of people stay out of fear... . Affairs aren’t the answer but one can see how sometimes it’s an escape. No excuse though.

 

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, Findingfreedom said:

Not fewer... sorry your wrong. Do your research. A lot of people stay out of fear... . Affairs aren’t the answer but one can see how sometimes it’s an escape. No excuse though.

 

I actually know the numbers, in fact there are threads here about it, no I'm not wrong.  The numbers overlap,  ie a woman cheats then leaves and is murdered. Which one counts?  

I believe there women who fear for thier safety stay in marriages, what it rare is for those women to have affairs. 

Reading this site and several others for years, its actually really rare to find a MW who actually fears her husband. Most often they have no respect for him and are abusive towards him.  

 

[Snakesalive]

13 hours ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

@Snakesalive When he contacted you last week, was he doing so in the hopes of rekindling things with you? I sometimes wonder if the waffling, push/pull is the MM wanting parts of both relationships, keeping options open should things work out one way or another.

 Though, ultimately... I don't even want to wonder about it. I just want to really get to that place where I don't care at all.  Each day of NC is so wildly different, some days are really tough, like today. Just my brain won't stop thinking of him. It's hard to deal when good memories surface.

He called me on the back of contact we had through work , absolutely not to rekindle things -not an option on his side or mine. 
I’m a few weeks into no contact and this contact did set me back , I revisited our relationship thinking of the good memories -but I know I’m idealising him so to try and get balance I review my journal from several months ago -all the angst the toxicity the push and pull and it’s helping me keep it real but yes some days are really tough but I know they won’t last forever. 
 

[Alexa007]

I'm late to this discussion but I resonate with so much of it.... Especially the party about channing your life for times you could see MM.  

I'm in the process of getting the strength gathered to end things for good.  I've ended it twice before but then he love bombs me and I think it "will be better this time".  

[IfWishesWereFishes]

@Alexa007 The love bombing is really difficult. It makes you happy, ecstatic. But, just remember the fall off. The multiple times either of us ended things, he would re-initiate contact, love bomb, we'd get back together, things would "stabilize" sort of, until they didn't when we'd do it all over again, either he or I ending things for some reason - jealousy, realizing how bad we felt when we were apart, me feeling like the OW, him feeling like the OM. And finally now, after just being purely tired of the rollercoaster, I'm getting off. Also, I think neither of us are really emotionally stable. Neither of us deal with things in a healthy way. In fact, I think that's why we were attracted to each other because of this recognition. It was like seeing yourself in another person and finally not having to pretend to be normal. And all this makes it hard to leave the A because I do see him as a best friend and love him. But, all the other aspects are wrong and toxic. Recognizing the toxicity is what I keep doing daily, and this time, it really feels totally different than the other times I've broken it off with him. The other times, I'd focus on how sad I felt not being able to be with him. This time, I'm focusing on how unhealthy I felt. I did not cry at all this time. I did not regret breaking it off. I don't ponder the what-ifs.

[Alexa007]

Thank you, @IfWishesWereFishes! You are SO RIGHT about the elation during the live bombs, and then it slowly facing as the gut-wrenching hot/cold cycle starts back.  

If I could be NC, I think I would be fine... It's the seeing him every day that's going to torture my soul. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Alexa007

[IfWishesWereFishes]

@Alexa007 I just saw your post in the forum. Yeah, I don't know how that would feel. If I had to see him everyday, I think it'd be really hard. It's not even about strength. 

[Snakesalive]

20 minutes ago, Alexa007 said:

Thank you, @IfWishesWereFishes! You are SO RIGHT about the elation during the live bombs, and then it slowly facing as the gut-wrenching hot/cold cycle starts back.  

If I could be NC, I think I would be fine... It's the seeing him every day that's going to torture my soul. 

I’ve had to resign to give myself any real chance of detaching from him -absolutely the right thing to do , I knew the risk to my career when I engaged in the affair but believed him in the love bombing stage(s) when he said  i didn’t need to worry because he had my back . Madness when I think about it now . 

[Findingfreedom]

22 hours ago, DKT3 said:

I actually know the numbers, in fact there are threads here about it, no I'm not wrong.  The numbers overlap,  ie a woman cheats then leaves and is murdered. Which one counts?  

I believe there women who fear for thier safety stay in marriages, what it rare is for those women to have affairs. 

Reading this site and several others for years, its actually really rare to find a MW who actually fears her husband. Most often they have no respect for him and are abusive towards him.  

 

I notice you are on these sites a lot. Are you a psychologist? Just curious. You seem very analytical. I think you are half right about a lot of things that I’ve read you have said but the other half is that you aren’t a woman so therefore you really can’t 100% know. I’m not trying to be snarky towards you it’s just you seem to make a lot of statement based on your “research” but somethings there is no rhyme or reason why people do the things they do.... it is what it is.... people have affairs...

[Findingfreedom]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:22 AM, IfWishesWereFishes said:

Interesting discussion. I think self-awareness is not the norm for us who engage in affairs. That is not a good assumption to make. I did not have any insight into what made my marriage dysfunctional. I did not have any insight into how my behaviors contributed to a dysfunctional marriage. I did not have any insight into how my husband's behaviors fed off of my behaviors and vice versa.  None of these are excuses, just the truth. Sometimes there is this perfect sh*tstorm, where, as a conflict avoidant person, you decide for years on end to just put up with things, not knowing how unhealthy you're being, not having any insight to seek therapy because you can't even really admit that anything is really wrong. In fact, you delude yourself into thinking things are fine, just fine, and that you place all the burden of an unfulfilling marriage on yourself because you think it really is all your fault.  And then something happens, a parent passes away suddenly and you find that the person who should have been there for you isn't, couldn't even muster a hug or an "I'm sorry for your loss" but instead just goes about as if nothing happened.  So you feel alone and disconnected and a friendly human who actually has emotions lends an ear and makes you feel at least okay so you can go about your business because you have to. You have to be the strong one for your mom, your sisters, your kids meanwhile continuing to work and be normal because it's what is expected of you. You're not supposed to cry or grieve, not supposed to feel. You're just supposed to be this person who can handle it all, go back to normal because death makes people uncomfortable. You find yourself alone,  except for this one human being who extends some feeling and can see you hurting. So, yeah, you know, not everything is black and white. Not all affairs are just about sex and wanting more sex and sex and sex and sex.  Sometimes, out of sheer human need for affection and intimacy that isn't found within your marriage, you make a choice to feel better. It's short-sighted. It was not well thought out.

It was finding myself emotionally alone when I needed support. And for MM, finding emotional support from me as solace from his abusive situation which got worse during the pandemic. Things aren't always cut and dried. Sometimes cheaters are just human beings who faced a sh*tstorm and don't know and have never had healthy ways of dealing with things. It was not thought-out to what happens a month from then or a year or anything. Just sometimes people in pain make ill-thought out choices that are then complicated by real feelings of friendship and love, unfortunately, found outside of marriage. And then it drives them crazy because of the type of relationship it is, one that should not exist and you try with all your might to extricate yourself, realizing all of this is toxic and of my own doing. And, want to extricate myself from both the affair and the marriage, but finding neither wants to let you go for whatever hellish reason. And even after all these terrible decisions, you think, you know, maybe I should just put on the happy face, go to my "job" of a marriage that you stay in due to feeling obligation to give your kids as normal a life as you can because divorce might be worse. It's not even because you really want to be there and haven't wanted to be there for a really long time, but you do it, put a happy face on because it's what's best for everyone else. Sure, in a perfect world, we'd all have the foresight to seek therapy, actually recognize the dysfunction, work on fixing things etc. You all give us too much credit. We don't know what we don't know until we know. And then, once we know, we then work on moving forward. 

Wow!! Well said! And completely true! 

[Hulahoop]

On 2/16/2021 at 3:29 AM, DKT3 said:

 

Affairs are relationships that are only about that relationship, with people who generally reinvent themselves to fit the image they believe the other person wants. 

Hi Mine was different to this. With my affair I finally felt like I could be me. My husband changed me. I had started to become someone I didn’t want to be. Someone I wasn’t. My AP made me me again. Since affair has finished and I no longer have any contact with him I am trying hard to retain those parts of myself, even though my husband is still the same if not worse.  

[DKT3]

20 minutes ago, Hulahoop said:

Hi Mine was different to this. With my affair I finally felt like I could be me. My husband changed me. I had started to become someone I didn’t want to be. Someone I wasn’t. My AP made me me again. Since affair has finished and I no longer have any contact with him I am trying hard to retain those parts of myself, even though my husband is still the same if not worse.  

Almost every WW comes here proclaiming the victim, married to a monster yet they are the ones cheating.  So your mm turned you into dishonest person,  lying and manipulating and that is who you are? Makes sense 🤔 

Edited February 26, 2021 by DKT3

[Hulahoop]

16 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Almost every WW comes here proclaiming the victim, married to a monster yet they are the ones cheating.  So your mm turned you into dishonest person,  lying and manipulating and that is who you are? Makes sense 🤔 

That’s not what I said. Sounds like you are twisting my words. I was merely saying that not all affairs are about the person becoming someone that the AP wants them to be. Sometimes they are able to be themselves.
 

I wasn’t commenting that the affair was ok, not in the slightest. Or what led me to having an affair or who I hurt. I know this. And I regret this. I was replying to a comment that people change themselves in an affair. Whereas I didn’t. 
 

As you know from my post I am not the victim not have I ever claimed to be. And I have not made my husband out to be a monster. I won’t go fully into my marriage but besides the actual wrongdoings of the affair, which you know I regret and feel guilty about,  I was able to be me. Not dishonest, lying and manipulative. But able to speak, able to be myself, to be happy. 
 

Yes “I should do this in my marriage” or “I should leave if not happy” but as you’ve read in my post it wasn’t supposed to work that way and my marriage isn’t a conventional one right now. This is not just my husbands fault. This is something we did to ourselves together. My affair wasn’t the only knot in my marriage. A big, stupid, pathetic one I admit but not the only one. 

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, Hulahoop said:

That’s not what I said. Sounds like you are twisting my words. I was merely saying that not all affairs are about the person becoming someone that the AP wants them to be. Sometimes they are able to be themselves.
 

I wasn’t commenting that the affair was ok, not in the slightest. Or what led me to having an affair or who I hurt. I know this. And I regret this. I was replying to a comment that people change themselves in an affair. Whereas I didn’t. 
 

As you know from my post I am not the victim not have I ever claimed to be. And I have not made my husband out to be a monster. I won’t go fully into my marriage but besides the actual wrongdoings of the affair, which you know I regret and feel guilty about,  I was able to be me. Not dishonest, lying and manipulative. But able to speak, able to be myself, to be happy. 
 

Yes “I should do this in my marriage” or “I should leave if not happy” but as you’ve read in my post it wasn’t supposed to work that way and my marriage isn’t a conventional one right now. This is not just my husbands fault. This is something we did to ourselves together. My affair wasn’t the only knot in my marriage. A big, stupid, pathetic one I admit but not the only one. 

When someone gets drunk you can't focus only on how funny they can be, but you have to note all the behavior.  

You are absolutely painting your husband as a monster,  you said HE changed you into someone you don't like. You take no accountability for who you became,  on the flipside you say mm allowed you to be yourself as if it was up to him. I've noticed several patterns in your personality.  You say both you and your husband messed up the marriage....but....you don't really believe that.  

Your actions seem impulsive, vindictive and very shortsighted.  Not three traits to make a successful relationship. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[IfWishesWereFishes]

I think there is a certain freedom in being in an affair. I found myself more open both emotionally and sexually than within my marriage. That's the difficulty in ending the affair because I did feel more myself than not. I think it's that while in the affair there is no baggage or anything, just hope, tenderness, and love. I think that was one of many reasons my xMM and I were together. I'd fathom to say that probably most people in affairs feel this to be true and what makes letting go difficult.  The trick is seeing that in order to have this openness there is a cost. The cost is the emotional turmoil when not together, the lying, hurting others, etc. and then when finally out of the affair, realizing all the behaviors and other dynamics at play that make the affair not sustainable and not a solution. And also, the madness in my own mind perpetuated by the push/pull cycles, etc.