After a while, it gets tiresome.

[Soul-shards]

After a while, it gets tiresome. The blanket statements. The "I-have-it-all-figured-out" attitudes about ALL affair cases because "now I am out of the woods" and pleased to join the righteous crowd again.

Even the vast majority of people who engage in affairs eventually default to social dogma because they want peace and quiet after the exhausting ride. They want to fit in comfortably in the game of life again, as it is socially designed - just like many do when they pick a partner for marriage to begin with, for pragmatic reasons, and which later might lead them to an affair. How ironic. Because life must go on, love or not. 

This doesn't make ALL affairs 'toxic,' whatever that means. How is a stable, functional marriage that should have never happened, spiritually speaking -  not-toxic? One that can longer be undone after a while, regardless?

How is a life spent feeling frustrated, unfulfilled, and with a haunting sense that something more should have happened, despite everything perfect on paper  - NOT toxic?

How is life in a comfortable, committed, mundanely functional but fundamentally incompatible relationship NOT TOXIC, when one will never know what it is like to be deeply, sincerely, unconditionally, and completely  in love? Just because it doesn't threaten to disrupt the social order? I understand this is healthy for society, but don't tell me it is for the individuals involved. Those are the sacrificial lambs. 

No, not all affairs derive from infatuation, limerance, midlife crises, frivolous boredom, lust, and sundry 'wrong reasons.'  

There's no doubt in my mind most affairs are 'toxic' because they are built on a wide range of 'wrong reasons;'  but I am here to make a statement on behalf of the very few that are worth every moment of turmoil. The ones that could have been superb, perfectly loyal, impeccable "til-death-do-us-part" marriages, had the AP-s been lucky to have found each other in time, at the right time, when single and looking to settle down.

I am here to speak on behalf of those affairs without which life would have been a meaningless ride; those where the AP-s are perfectly lucid, caring and considerate and are doing everything in their power to NOT hurt anyone else, sacrificing themselves in the process - even as they are pulled towards each other as if into a black hole. 

If people don't believe in soulmates, twin flames, and other 'labels' with mystic touches just because it never happened to them, this is fine. All they need to remember is that they don't know everything.

I understand the need to come here and label ALL affairs 'toxic' because this is the experience of MOST people in affairs once it's over. 

I only want to ask for a moment of charity and consideration for those of us who do not share this affair experience and who would choose it over and over again, if given the chance  - without hesitation, without regret, despite the incredible turmoil and excruciating guilt involved.

A few of us DO have a sacred experience with this socially unacceptable life event  and seeing it tarnished everywhere we go, adds to the pain.

I would want to say 'thank you for suspending judgement and the blanket statements,' if only for one second, but I know I will be demolished. Do your worst.

[IfWishesWereFishes]

@Soul-shards I actually agree with you. My relationship with MM has been the most affirming relationship I've had, odd as it may sound. The connection was deep and powerful and why we had a hard time letting it go.  In fact, in getting to know each other, we realized how times we were actually in the same places and times but for some reason we never connected in the past. It makes getting over him more difficult because, like you, we do think of ourselves as soulmates and have a strong spiritual, emotional connection. The toxic part is the type of relationship because of the nature of it with the lies, the push/pull dynamic, the feelings of insecurity, all of which led the both of us to feeling off-balance and ending it and restarting it multiple times because neither of us could let go of this feeling of connection. 

Because of this relationship, I have learned that my marriage is toxic in it's self-sacrificing nature, lack of communication of needs, the projection of everything being perfectly fine and functional. Both of my relationships are toxic and why I'm going to IC and trying to figure out the best way forward, in order to not hurt myself anymore, not hurt my children nor spouse nor my exAP. In recognizing that both my relationships are toxic, the common denominator is me. 

One might argue philosophically that marriage as an institution and monogamy is flawed. However, having said that, the agreement between my spouse and me is based on the concept of monogamy, concept being flawed or not is not the point. My spouse is in the dark about where I've taken the relationship. Therein lies the betrayal. It's not self-righteousness that makes me say this nor being happy to be living out societal norms nor going going back to the safety of the fold. So, like others here, I do think the right thing to do is to end your relationship with your spouse first and then to pursue a relationship with your soulmate. Or, redefine your marriage. Tell your spouse of the soulmate and that you only will be in the marriage to support the finances and other practical things.  But, continuing on with the A is not the solution. I found that I was destroying myself and many of my relationships.

[Findingfreedom]

2 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

After a while, it gets tiresome. The blanket statements. The "I-have-it-all-figured-out" attitudes about ALL affair cases because "now I am out of the woods" and pleased to join the righteous crowd again.

Even the vast majority of people who engage in affairs eventually default to social dogma because they want peace and quiet after the exhausting ride. They want to fit in comfortably in the game of life again, as it is socially designed - just like many do when they pick a partner for marriage to begin with, for pragmatic reasons, and which later might lead them to an affair. How ironic. Because life must go on, love or not. 

This doesn't make ALL affairs 'toxic,' whatever that means. How is a stable, functional marriage that should have never happened, spiritually speaking -  not-toxic? One that can longer be undone after a while, regardless?

How is a life spent feeling frustrated, unfulfilled, and with a haunting sense that something more should have happened, despite everything perfect on paper  - NOT toxic?

How is life in a comfortable, committed, mundanely functional but fundamentally incompatible relationship NOT TOXIC, when one will never know what it is like to be deeply, sincerely, unconditionally, and completely  in love? Just because it doesn't threaten to disrupt the social order? I understand this is healthy for society, but don't tell me it is for the individuals involved. Those are the sacrificial lambs. 

No, not all affairs derive from infatuation, limerance, midlife crises, frivolous boredom, lust, and sundry 'wrong reasons.'  

There's no doubt in my mind most affairs are 'toxic' because they are built on a wide range of 'wrong reasons;'  but I am here to make a statement on behalf of the very few that are worth every moment of turmoil. The ones that could have been superb, perfectly loyal, impeccable "til-death-do-us-part" marriages, had the AP-s been lucky to have found each other in time, at the right time, when single and looking to settle down.

I am here to speak on behalf of those affairs without which life would have been a meaningless ride; those where the AP-s are perfectly lucid, caring and considerate and are doing everything in their power to NOT hurt anyone else, sacrificing themselves in the process - even as they are pulled towards each other as if into a black hole. 

If people don't believe in soulmates, twin flames, and other 'labels' with mystic touches just because it never happened to them, this is fine. All they need to remember is that they don't know everything.

I understand the need to come here and label ALL affairs 'toxic' because this is the experience of MOST people in affairs once it's over. 

I only want to ask for a moment of charity and consideration for those of us who do not share this affair experience and who would choose it over and over again, if given the chance  - without hesitation, without regret, despite the incredible turmoil and excruciating guilt involved.

A few of us DO have a sacred experience with this socially unacceptable life event  and seeing it tarnished everywhere we go, adds to the pain.

I would want to say 'thank you for suspending judgement and the blanket statements,' if only for one second, but I know I will be demolished. Do your worst.

I agree with you... I actually think my marrage was more toxic than my affair. With my affair I knew where I stood.... with my marrage I was going through the motions because that’s what we are supposed to do. Not all affairs are toxic.... the situation is toxic but the feelings can be very real.

[Soul-shards]

1 hour ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

@Soul-shards . My spouse is in the dark about where I've taken the relationship. Therein lies the betrayal. It's not self-righteousness that makes me say this nor being happy to be living out societal norms nor going going back to the safety of the fold. So, like others here, I do think the right thing to do is to end your relationship with your spouse first and then to pursue a relationship with your soulmate. Or, redefine your marriage. Tell your spouse of the soulmate and that you only will be in the marriage to support the finances and other practical things.  But, continuing on with the A is not the solution. I found that I was destroying myself and many of my relationships.

 Yes, I understand the principle behind it - but what you presented is always easier said than done. I believe in best possible results for all involved over pure principle . This doesn't mean one should feel free to cause destruction to those around them willy-nilly, just to reach their goal, no matter how perverted. 

Unfortunately, sometimes, disclosing reality (feelings for soulmate) will simply do a lot more harm than good for everyone involved, on both sides. Not only will it lead to the destruction of the family and messing up children's lives and mental health, but it will also devastate the spouse, especially if he is not a naturally strong person (he has struggled with insecurity, weakness, immaturity, depression, and self-doubt his whole life). So have I in the past - but I have grown, he has not. He would not react well and I don't want to leave my family in devastation. Moreover, the soulmate cannot leave the marriage either. We are both loyal to our families and feel a deep sense of responsibility towards them.

There would be catastrophic damage on both sides. Disclosing to families and coming together in the name of love, truth, integrity and the jazz would do a lot more harm than good. This would tarnish and deform what we have, so it's irrelevant. Love, no matter how monumental, is not enough in the social world. Hence affairs - even if such affairs are only emotional. 

Btw, I have used the word 'soulmates' and not ap-s because this soulmate and I have NOT slept together, despite knowing each other for soon to be 3 years now. We are also hundreds of miles away. I am not trying to hold myself as anything "special" but I have reached the end of the Internet looking for a similar situation. We have a level of compatibility and connection I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams - but we found each other too late to hope we could turn this (whatever this is) into anything socially acceptable.  

He's still the most amazing thing that ever happened to me - and I will never forget.

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Not all affairs are toxic.... the situation is toxic but the feelings can be very real.

Findinfreedom hit the nail on the head. People confuse the actual relationship with the unfavorable circumstances surrounding it, which any affair carries, by default.

Just because the circumstances and constraints are extremely toxic, doesn't mean the relationship itself is. People seem to believe that because they bought into the social dogma.

In fact, I suspect some of the most mind-blowing love stories happen in affairs. Setting aside those cases where people just can't keep it in their pants (pure lust), why else would anyone put themselves in this horrible, impossible set-up if something extremely deep, compatible, and meaningful wasn't going on?

I suspect most marriages don't start with a tiny fraction of the love found in such affairs.

When people are young and single, nature and social forces induce them to hurry up and 'fall in love'  because there's work to do (perpetuation of the species, raising the young, must keep the economy rolling, etc). So they do - but most of those "clicks" are superficial. Then they are expected to turn that initial superficial attraction into "Forever" domestic love (commitment, perfect monogamy, functionality, comfort, making it "work" with date nights, dutiful Valentine's flowers, scheduled sex and other intentional crap). Sure it helps to keep the boat floating - but if people think this is even a tiny fraction of the love and compatibility that makes some affairs unavoidable - then they would be sorely mistaken.

Yes, people fall in love for marriage, but most have no idea what pure love is because most marriages don't start out with a high degree of compatibility. One can't be in love with someone they can't deeply relate to and greatly respect.

So they never get to know the kind of love that makes you purely selfless and loving, no ulterior motive; the kind that brings the best out in you and makes you feel like the most beautiful and wholesome human that has ever walked the Earth; the kind where you understand what 'unconditional' really means simply because you saw this person's inner beauty, which makes you feel like life is worth living; the kind where being sacrificial feels divine, not losing in the game of "give-and-take, tit-for-tat.'" This has nothing to do with 'self-esteem' or accepting less in the deal. Not a transaction. It has everything to do with wanting the loved one to be well. No social criteria involved - money, status, prospects, prestige, power, respectability - nothing to gain from them. Just the deep knowledge that you were cut out for each other. 

How many marriages start out like this? Based on what I've read - not many. 

Sure some do, and it would be nice if everyone had a marriage that started out on these premises. But most don't have that . FACT.

In this sense, FindingFreedom nailed it: the circumstances of an affair are ALWAYS toxic; but the relationship itself - not necessarily. Some are the BEST there is. Don't expect such people to apologize for daring to be alive when they still have life in them.

[SMoore]

Powerful stuff.  I agree that it can feel magical, unique, like heaven on earth etc.  Totally get that.  Utterly beautiful, life-enhancing, deep, meaningful etc.

But.

It’s still just a feeling.  What you are describing is just romantic love.  It’s all of the above but also commonplace, biological, time-limited, ancient, predictable and wholly in your mind.  That’s what romantic love is.  It doesn’t get any more transcendent than that.  In our age we have attached much more to it than nature intended, and this cultural conditioning is hard to shake off.  It feels just as you describe it, but it is projection and delusion and nothing more.  What you are so sad about missing out on is a construct in your head - which isn’t to say the feeling isn’t real - which would turn into something far more mundane given time.  The drudgery of marriage is where real love starts.  Unconditional love can only arise when the ego has died, it is also real but has nothing to do with romantic yearning.  The real tragedy is that we do not recognise the nature of love and we suffer much more as a result.

Just thought it might be helpful to point that out.

[Soul-shards]

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What you are so sad about missing out on is a construct in your head, which isn’t to say the feeling isn’t real - which would turn into something far more mundane given time.  The drudgery of marriage is where real love starts.

 

I respectfully disagree. Here's why:

Compatibility is enormously important for a couple's quality of life. Note I didn't say 'marriage,' but couple's quality of life. Commitment is important for marriage, but compatibility is vital for quality of life. This is because people are not interchangeable.

By no means am I arguing that if I'd married this man, I would have continued to feel these monumental romantic feelings of yearning and turmoil forever. Feelings would have evolved into domestic sentiment of attachment, etc. But the marriage would have had an extremely strong foundation, which means the 'drudgery of marriage' would have felt natural and right, the ego would have been dead to begin with, and the temptation for an outside union would have been zero. Ever wonder why so many people talk about the drudgery of marriage? Really? Is life truly supposed to be that horrible? Says who? Could it be this is because people are dragging through life with partners who were not cut out for them?

All happy marriages I know of (both parents and grandparents and many relatives) had excellent compatibility and neither spouse ever thought of marriage as drudgery/duty, etc. They always said "I could never imagine my life without spouse." No drudgery - just belonging together, which makes life's drudgery easier, not harder! 

If the drudgery of marriage is difficult even for highly compatible couples, imagine what it is for people who start out with relatively poor/superficial compatibility (many do so).

I have read a lot about this mess and I have been in another community where I received so much vitriol it's not even funny. Been there, got the T-shirt, I know the dogma, I know the poetry - it's a NO. I don't buy it - and I wish the young could learn this hard, socially inconvenient truth.

I learned the devastating way that compatibility matters A TON, especially for certain categories of individuals. Some need it more than others because all men have NOT been created equal, despite the rumor.

The hardest part will be to forgive my 20+ yo self who knew, deep down, that there was an internal mismatch between myself and H, despite great matching on superficial traits, on paper. My soul needed more, but I also knew that what I needed was difficult to find anyway - and I was right. It took 20 years to come across THAT THING.  A little too late.

Before I married, I had the inkling this was not quite IT. I knew it, but I suppressed it, because I wanted stability, safety, a family, parental approval, all the social goodies that promise the good life.  So I married, knowing instinctively, not intellectually, that deep down H was not the perfect match for me.

 We made it work superficially and continue to do so, but we never really fused at that fundamental, deeply satisfying level. Yet coming from very traditional families, neither of us could divorce just 'cause, especially considering children.

Until this MM came along - and then I UNDERSTOOD what I did in my 20's. Would I have met him or equivalent had I waited? Small odds, because he is the very rare type. 

Woulda, shoulda...sliding doors.  I wish I could save other souls from such excruciating scenarios. 

 Just pleas don't say that all marriages are supposed to be drudgery and that love is nothing but commitment to drag along through life.

It is THIS line of thinking that caused me to make the wrong step in my 20's. Now I cry for it every day.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Soul-shards

[SMoore]

Well, yes.  I do actually agree that compatibility is a thing, and that can make marriage a lot easier.  Also, I agree that marriages don’t always have to be awful.  People find ways of making them work.  Some might even be happy.  My experience is that it’s hard work, and that it’s very hard to tell what others’ marriages are like from the outside.  I also agree that knowing more about how to choose the right partner when young would be an excellent thing, and I probably do wish I knew then some of the things I know now.

However, I do worry that you’re idealising this relationship and that’s the reason you’re in pain.  I met someone once who I thought was a ‘soul mate’ as you described.  Time passed, she clearly wasn’t and I had to figure out how I could have believed such a thing.

I stand by my views as they conform to my experience, and I wish you well.

[Findingfreedom]

3 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

 

I respectfully disagree. Here's why:

Compatibility is enormously important for a couple's quality of life. Note I didn't say 'marriage,' but couple's quality of life. Commitment is important for marriage, but compatibility is vital for quality of life. This is because people are not interchangeable.

By no means am I arguing that if I'd married this man, I would have continued to feel these monumental romantic feelings of yearning and turmoil forever. Feelings would have evolved into domestic sentiment of attachment, etc. But the marriage would have had an extremely strong foundation, which means the 'drudgery of marriage' would have felt natural and right, the ego would have been dead to begin with, and the temptation for an outside union would have been zero. Ever wonder why so many people talk about the drudgery of marriage? Really? Is life truly supposed to be that horrible? Says who? Could it be this is because people are dragging through life with partners who were not cut out for them?

All happy marriages I know of (both parents and grandparents and many relatives) had excellent compatibility and neither spouse ever thought of marriage as drudgery/duty, etc. They always said "I could never imagine my life without spouse." No drudgery - just belonging together, which makes life's drudgery easier, not harder! 

If the drudgery of marriage is difficult even for highly compatible couples, imagine what it is for people who start out with relatively poor/superficial compatibility (many do so).

I have read a lot about this mess and I have been in another community where I received so much vitriol it's not even funny. Been there, got the T-shirt, I know the dogma, I know the poetry - it's a NO. I don't buy it - and I wish the young could learn this hard, socially inconvenient truth.

I learned the devastating way that compatibility matters A TON, especially for certain categories of individuals. Some need it more than others because all men have NOT been created equal, despite the rumor.

The hardest part will be to forgive my 20+ yo self who knew, deep down, that there was an internal mismatch between myself and H, despite great matching on superficial traits, on paper. My soul needed more, but I also knew that what I needed was difficult to find anyway - and I was right. It took 20 years to come across THAT THING.  A little too late.

Before I married, I had the inkling this was not quite IT. I knew it, but I suppressed it, because I wanted stability, safety, a family, parental approval, all the social goodies that promise the good life.  So I married, knowing instinctively, not intellectually, that deep down H was not the perfect match for me.

 We made it work superficially and continue to do so, but we never really fused at that fundamental, deeply satisfying level. Yet coming from very traditional families, neither of us could divorce just 'cause, especially considering children.

Until this MM came along - and then I UNDERSTOOD what I did in my 20's. Would I have met him or equivalent had I waited? Small odds, because he is the very rare type. 

Woulda, shoulda...sliding doors.  I wish I could save other souls from such excruciating scenarios. 

 Just pleas don't say that all marriages are supposed to be drudgery and that love is nothing but commitment to drag along through life.

It is THIS line of thinking that caused me to make the wrong step in my 20's. Now I cry for it every day.

I could of wrote this about my 20 year old self.... all the red flags were there but they were ignored because of all the reasons you stated.... I just turned 50 and I know what I’m looking for....

[Soul-shards]

2 hours ago, SMoore said:

Well, yes.  I do actually agree that compatibility is a thing, and that can make marriage a lot easier.

It's a big thing, if not THE ONLY thing. The problem is the young don't know what that is because they act in socially aspirational ways (they look for social 'catches') rather than hold out for true compatibility.  This means they rarely understand themselves at the core to know what they can and cannot live with from a partner. 

If you are a 'bank robber' at heart, metaphorically speaking, look for similar; don't aspire to that socially spiffy accountant. It will destroy you both.

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 Also, I agree that marriages don’t always have to be awful.

 

Sure they are not. Only marriages where there is abuse and what not can qualify as objectively awful. That being said, a marriage can be simply unfulfilling despite no particularly bad events. If another prospect appears that clearly demonstrates how much better marriage could be, then the unfulfilling marriage becomes awful by comparison.

Quote

 People find ways of making them work.  Some might even be happy.

Sure they do. But making a marriage "work" doesn't equate to having a deeply fulfilling marriage.

Truly happy, emotionally and spiritually satisfying marriages are lucky cases, and I think those are exceptions to the rule in our times. Modern populations are so mixed up and so disordered that they simply fail to bring the right people together. People come in contact with potential partners who may fit them superficially, only to discover later that they don't have all that much in common and that there are major differences in caliber and cut. 

Then you get divorces, affairs, estrangement, sexless marriages, or just plain "meh" marriages that need a lot of "work." Good grief, you'd think marriage would help people get trough life easier, not add MORE work to their plate. 

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 My experience is that it’s hard work, and that it’s very hard to tell what others’ marriages are like from the outside.  

I firmly believe that this "marriage takes work" myth comes form poor matching of modern populations. If you pair a dove with a Guinea pig - no wonder it's going to take a lot of work.

If it takes SO MUCH work, something was wrong with the pairing process. I say this as someone who has worked insanely hard on her marriage for 20 years. You can't fool nature - in this case, imperfect matching.

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I also agree that knowing more about how to choose the right partner when young would be an excellent thing, and I probably do wish I knew then some of the things I know now.

Highly needed. I wish I could open a school .

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However, I do worry that you’re idealising this relationship and that’s the reason you’re in pain.  I met someone once who I thought was a ‘soul mate’ as you described.  Time passed, she clearly wasn’t and I had to figure out how I could have believed such a thing.

If you knew all details, you would have no doubt. Time passed for me too, and the more it does, the more convinced I am that in a non-chaotic, corrupt universe, we would have been together. 

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I stand by my views as they conform to my experience, and I wish you well.

I feel the same way. Thanks so much  and I wish you the same!

[Soul-shards]

9 minutes ago, Findingfreedom said:

I could of wrote this about my 20 year old self.... all the red flags were there but they were ignored because of all the reasons you stated.... I just turned 50 and I know what I’m looking for....

 

I am just a bit younger but I could not imagine starting over on the dating market. What a nightmare. This soulmate and I cannot be together officially - neither can we leave our marriages; yet many on a different community told me to divorce my H right away because if my heart is not 100% in the marriage, I need to move on, no matter what, even if I can't be with soulmate. This is complete craziness.

Move on to what and why? My marriage-related heart was the same before the soulmate appeared. In fact, the marriage got better when he came along because I was very frustrated before. I care about my husband, in fact I love him in that domestic, luke-warm way, but I always knew this marriage needed more. 

I am not interested in anyone else but the soulmate - and my H would be miserable if I divorced him. Nobody would win anything if we split. He said many times he would never marry again if he somehow lost me (a bit on the loner side, not the greatest social skills) . Knowing him, I know it's true.

Point being - there's so much rush to stereotype all affairs and place them all in the same sordid, undesirable bowl. Some cases really don't fit the stereotype and the relationship itself taken outside the unfavorable "affair" context - can be the best thing that ever happened to those people. This is why they end up having it anyway, while making sure nobody gets hurt. Maximum amount of good for all, in the end. Apparently, life is not sanitary. 

 

[DKT3]

37 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

 

I am just a bit younger but I could not imagine starting over on the dating market. What a nightmare. This soulmate and I cannot be together officially - neither can we leave our marriages; yet many on a different community told me to divorce my H right away because if my heart is not 100% in the marriage, I need to move on, no matter what, even if I can't be with soulmate. This is complete craziness.

Move on to what and why? My marriage-related heart was the same before the soulmate appeared. In fact, the marriage got better when he came along because I was very frustrated before. I care about my husband, in fact I love him in that domestic, luke-warm way, but I always knew this marriage needed more. 

I am not interested in anyone else but the soulmate - and my H would be miserable if I divorced him. Nobody would win anything if we split. He said many times he would never marry again if he somehow lost me (a bit on the loner side, not the greatest social skills) . Knowing him, I know it's true.

Point being - there's so much rush to stereotype all affairs and place them all in the same sordid, undesirable bowl. Some cases really don't fit the stereotype and the relationship itself taken outside the unfavorable "affair" context - can be the best thing that ever happened to those people. This is why they end up having it anyway, while making sure nobody gets hurt. Maximum amount of good for all, in the end. Apparently, life is not sanitary. 

 

This sound extremely arrogant. 

The reality is your husband would likely be much better off without you as his wife. It would give him the opportunity to find a real marriage with a woman that actually respects him.

Secondly,  your saying that since you can't have the guy you really want,  you will stay married and offer your husband half a wife, because that's all he deserves.  Someone who is dishonest and only deserves whatever is left of you after you've given yourself to another man.

Edited February 22, 2021 by DKT3

[Soul-shards]

DKT3,

I wish this was so. I know my H better than you do. He will never marry again if we divorce, this is 100% certainty. He will die alone, he's said it many times and I fully believe him. I wish it wasn't like this - but it is. Other people in his family have followed this pattern too - either lifelong bachelorhood or never again married after divorce.

It is highly unlikely this soulmate and I will ever be together physically. It is what it is. This relationship is strictly emotional as we live states apart.   

 

[IfWishesWereFishes]

Huh... so all these posts actually gave me a chuckle and stop navel gazing for a bit. Thanks for the laugh today.

The hypocrisy of the soul connection, if you truly, truly believe it, Soul-shard, would be that you would want that full relationship with your soulmate and he with you. If neither of you are willing to change your relationship with your families and spouses and actually be together-together, then I think being a soulmate isn't really enough nor really all that important, even as magical-sounding and life altering as you say it is.

Clearly, coming from a traditional background yourself makes you wish to perpetuate the traditional roles you still fulfill within both your marriages and not to live outside the accepted societal norms for the spiritual once-in-a-lifetime connection that you say you have. Your children will also learn this value, the staying for the drudgery of the marriage.  

If you truly believed the value and worthiness of this soul-connection, you'd move mountains for it.  You'd also think that it would be beneficial for your children to learn the true meaning of marriage compatibility. 

Further, you then, to put yourself as if you are better than those of us who have engaged in the physical aspect, as if your emotional affair is somehow more pure, is utterly crazy. An emotional affair is still expending your emotional energy outside of your marriage, unbeknownst to your spouse. You don't have to justify your soulmate ties if that's really what it is. You'd know and not have to convince yourself of purity and life-altering aspects.

After all, this isn't a competition of the purity of relationships outside of marriage, as if to say one affair is better than another. People engage in affairs for a myriad of reasons, no justifications needed. I think people sometimes try to justify the reasons they have an extra-marital relationship because they want to believe they wouldn't do something so against their moral upbringing unless it is something as special and unique as a soulmate.

 I don't doubt that people do find more compatible people outside of their spouses and due to lack of insight into themselves, lack of boundaries, lack of self-awareness, choose to engage in an affair and then become addicted to the toxic, unhealthy aspects. I think people are working to fix themselves once they recognize the dysfunction, ending things so they can make things right in their own lives rather than talk in terms couched in spirituality and philosophical murmurings. They fix themselves and heal so they can go forward with the next half of their lives, so they don't have to live in secret and don't have to live in lies.

It doesn't feel good nor right to live in lies and darkness. That changes your soul. It does come from understanding what you were in your 20s is not what you are today and then deciding what you want going forward. But, to stay in this limbo state of a marriage with an AP is cake-eating. And this is from me, the unhealthy-full-blown-physical-emotional-affair-working-through-lots-of-therapy person who can't be all that healthy, who just ended things with an AP whom I loved, has daily withdrawal symptoms, and who does believe in soul ties and spirituality and all that. 

Sometimes it's putting on our big-girl panties and putting in the work on yourself, admitting you're flawed, admitting that you'd engage in a selfish act, admitting that you did it because it felt good in the moment and chose not to think of the consequences.

Edited February 23, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[elaine567]

2 hours ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

. I think people sometimes try to justify the reasons they have an extra-marital relationship because they want to believe they wouldn't do something so against their moral upbringing unless it is something as special and unique as a soulmate.

Agreed.
It is the cause of a lot of the heart ache when this "oh so special" AP does not come up to expectations.
If he is not exceptional, and what they have is not particularly unique or special, then she has to face, what the hell is she really doing?
Risking all for very little in reality.
That is an uncomfortable thought, so he HAS to be special and a lot of mental gymnastics goes on to make him special... to turn an affair into the love story of the century.
A lot of lying, not only to others but to herself too.

[Soul-shards]

11 hours ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

Huh... so all these posts actually gave me a chuckle and stop navel gazing for a bit. Thanks for the laugh today.

The hypocrisy of the soul connection, if you truly, truly believe it, Soul-shard, would be that you would want that full relationship with your soulmate and he with you. If neither of you are willing to change your relationship with your families and spouses and actually be together-together, then I think being a soulmate isn't really enough nor really all that important, even as magical-sounding and life altering as you say it is.

I never said being a soulmate is enough. Enough for what? To destroy others without scruples? No , it's not. Not when both soulmates have families towards whom they feel a deep sense of responsibility. Soulmates doesn't equal jerks. "Our love being so real comes first - let's dump all others in our lives, children included, so we can be together." This would kill the relationship itself. Talk about toxic and selfish.  But yes, being lucky enough to marry a soulmate is insanely important for quality of life.

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Clearly, coming from a traditional background yourself makes you wish to perpetuate the traditional roles you still fulfill within both your marriages and not to live outside the accepted societal norms for the spiritual once-in-a-lifetime connection that you say you have. Your children will also learn this value, the staying for the drudgery of the marriage.

  If you truly believed the value and worthiness of this soul-connection, you'd move mountains for it.

The children want their parents together, period. My husband and I don't fight and we are very affectionate, in general, and children are happy to see us together. We had a few rough moments in the past and children were terrified we would split. They often comment about how happy they are that they have both mom and dad, unlike many of their friends. This is just an excuse  for people to place their own happiness ahead of their children's. Neither of us, soulmate or I, belong to that category so neither is interested in moving THOSE kinds of mountains. Many affairs have this situation - which again, goes back to the topic of "toxicity." The situation itself is toxic, the relationship is not.

 

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You'd also think that it would be beneficial for your children to learn the true meaning of marriage compatibility.

It certainly is but not this way - with them losing their parents and living with the idea they were a mistake. I will always guide them to be fierce about compatibility, but when they will look for partners they will NOT face the constraints and time pressures I did. I do not care to go into personal details here, but yes - their situation will surely be different from what I had when I was in my 20's. 

 

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Further, you then, to put yourself as if you are better than those of us who have engaged in the physical aspect, as if your emotional affair is somehow more pure, is utterly crazy.

Sorry you read it this way. This sounds unnecessarily defensive. I wrote that in response to the poster who said that "I gave myself to another man" and this is unfair to husband. Physically, I have always been 100% faithful to my husband and this still applies at this moment. By no means do I see my relationship more "special" than all others just because it is yet to involve anything physical. That being said, I DO KNOW it is something higher and more meaningful than affair cases driven strictly by lust. One, two sessions and then they wail about what a mistake they made (it was just sex, honey) and want to be back with the spouse. Some affairs are way above that and I will not apologize for being able to tell the difference. 

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An emotional affair is still expending your emotional energy outside of your marriage, unbeknownst to your spouse. You don't have to justify your soulmate ties if that's really what it is. You'd know and not have to convince yourself of purity and life-altering aspects. After all, this isn't a competition of the purity of relationships outside of marriage, as if to say one affair is better than another.

Nobody engaged in a competition. This relationship IS special due to its insane degree of compatibility, not due to sexual purity. If we were closer, the physical aspect would be hard to resist.   We are both physically attracted to each other.

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People engage in affairs for a myriad of reasons, no justifications needed. I think people sometimes try to justify the reasons they have an extra-marital relationship because they want to believe they wouldn't do something so against their moral upbringing unless it is something as special and unique as a soulmate. 

 

And you would be right. Had I been ripe for an affair because my marriage was less than excellent, I would have done it long time ago, in 20 years of marriage, considering my marriage had that incompatibility from the start. It never even crossed my mind. All men I encountered in these 20 years might as well have been women for all the interest they awoke in me. Men were 'people' to me, zero interest.

So yes, some people DO end up in an affair because they met their soulmate. No justification involved, pure truth. In fact, what they do at first is try to find 100 justifications as to why this is just some stupid infatuation that needs to be ignored. They fight against it tooth and nail, until it gets scary when they realize it's not.

That was the point of my post. Not all affairs are "toxic" and not all involve "justifications." 
 

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I don't doubt that people do find more compatible people outside of their spouses and due to lack of insight into themselves, lack of boundaries, lack of self-awareness, choose to engage in an affair and then become addicted to the toxic, unhealthy aspects.

 

This doesn't make much sense. Recognizing a soulmate takes a lot of introspection, insight and self-awareness.

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I think people are working to fix themselves once they recognize the dysfunction, ending things so they can make things right in their own lives rather than talk in terms couched in spirituality and philosophical murmurings. They fix themselves and heal so they can go forward with the next half of their lives, so they don't have to live in secret and don't have to live in lies. It doesn't feel good nor right to live in lies and darkness.

 

Sure, if fixing themselves means ending the affair (sometimes impossible) or causing destruction to families so the ap-s can live comfortably (not in secret), somehow without noticing the destruction they left behind. It works for some. It doesn't work for others. Once again - not all relationships in an affair context are toxic. The affair set up is, but sometimes there's no way around it. 

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That changes your soul. It does come from understanding what you were in your 20s is not what you are today and then deciding what you want going forward.

Indeed, the time vector matters; but people make a mistake in thinking you can always start over simply because you changed from your 20's. You can't, because the aging process and the human lifespan are what they are - and nothing is going to change that for anybody. People can't start over, but they can modify conditions and enrich their lives as they are. There is a reason why second and third marriages, blended families, etc have even lower odds of success than first marriages. Some people prefer continuity and enrichment of what is.
 

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But, to stay in this limbo state of a marriage with an AP is cake-eating.

 

And? Cake is fine.

 

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And this is from me, the unhealthy-full-blown-physical-emotional-affair-working-through-lots-of-therapy person who can't be all that healthy, who just ended things with an AP whom I loved, has daily withdrawal symptoms, and who does believe in soul ties and spirituality and all that. Sometimes it's putting on our big-girl panties and putting in the work on yourself, admitting you're flawed, admitting that you'd engage in a selfish act, admitting that you did it because it felt good in the moment and chose not to think of the consequences.

This was the right thing for you - and for many others. The purpose of my post was to draw attention to a minority of cases, as rare as they may be, that do not fit the trajectory you present. Those people understand perfectly well they are flawed and no, they did not do it because it felt good for the moment. When they maintain a very meaningful, deeply satisfying connection for years without succumbing to fast consummation that's not a "feel good for the moment, let's not think of consequences"-type of relationship. 

Please allow room for such cases as the "big-girl panties" are not always what you think they are.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Soul-shards

[BaileyB]

18 hours ago, SMoore said:

What you are describing is just romantic love.  What you are so sad about missing out on is a construct in your head - which would turn into something far more mundane given time.  The drudgery of marriage is where real love starts.  The real tragedy is that we do not recognise the nature of love and we suffer much more as a result.

This is so true. Very wise and very well said. 

[spiritedaway2003]

18 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

 

I respectfully disagree. Here's why:

Compatibility is enormously important for a couple's quality of life. Note I didn't say 'marriage,' but couple's quality of life. Commitment is important for marriage, but compatibility is vital for quality of life. This is because people are not interchangeable.

By no means am I arguing that if I'd married this man, I would have continued to feel these monumental romantic feelings of yearning and turmoil forever. Feelings would have evolved into domestic sentiment of attachment, etc. But the marriage would have had an extremely strong foundation, which means the 'drudgery of marriage' would have felt natural and right, the ego would have been dead to begin with, and the temptation for an outside union would have been zero. Ever wonder why so many people talk about the drudgery of marriage? Really? Is life truly supposed to be that horrible? Says who? Could it be this is because people are dragging through life with partners who were not cut out for them?

All happy marriages I know of (both parents and grandparents and many relatives) had excellent compatibility and neither spouse ever thought of marriage as drudgery/duty, etc. They always said "I could never imagine my life without spouse." No drudgery - just belonging together, which makes life's drudgery easier, not harder! 

If the drudgery of marriage is difficult even for highly compatible couples, imagine what it is for people who start out with relatively poor/superficial compatibility (many do so).

I have read a lot about this mess and I have been in another community where I received so much vitriol it's not even funny. Been there, got the T-shirt, I know the dogma, I know the poetry - it's a NO. I don't buy it - and I wish the young could learn this hard, socially inconvenient truth.

I learned the devastating way that compatibility matters A TON, especially for certain categories of individuals. Some need it more than others because all men have NOT been created equal, despite the rumor.

The hardest part will be to forgive my 20+ yo self who knew, deep down, that there was an internal mismatch between myself and H, despite great matching on superficial traits, on paper. My soul needed more, but I also knew that what I needed was difficult to find anyway - and I was right. It took 20 years to come across THAT THING.  A little too late.

Before I married, I had the inkling this was not quite IT. I knew it, but I suppressed it, because I wanted stability, safety, a family, parental approval, all the social goodies that promise the good life.  So I married, knowing instinctively, not intellectually, that deep down H was not the perfect match for me.

 We made it work superficially and continue to do so, but we never really fused at that fundamental, deeply satisfying level. Yet coming from very traditional families, neither of us could divorce just 'cause, especially considering children.

Until this MM came along - and then I UNDERSTOOD what I did in my 20's. Would I have met him or equivalent had I waited? Small odds, because he is the very rare type. 

Woulda, shoulda...sliding doors.  I wish I could save other souls from such excruciating scenarios. 

 Just pleas don't say that all marriages are supposed to be drudgery and that love is nothing but commitment to drag along through life.

It is THIS line of thinking that caused me to make the wrong step in my 20's. Now I cry for it every day.

I appreciate this post.  I appreciate how you ardently voice your thoughts on compatibility and connection.  It's not everyday that someone gets that sometimes the situation is toxic, but not (always necessarily) the relationship itself.  Or that there is a difference between an emotional affair vs one that is full blown.  Of this, I don't think an EA is by definition more 'pure' than any other types of affairs, but rather, it wasn't built purely on sex.  Some might recognize that when affairs are brought up, it's often brought up as nothing more than just about sex, yet how could that be true when you've never slept with the person?   Isn't there also some irony in that when an affair is first exposed, one of the first questions people like to ask is, "How far did it go?  Was it a physical affair or an EA?"

I was in an affair. For a time, I felt an EA was an important distinction not because it was 'better' than a full-blown one, but it represented our attempt to maintain certain boundaries (even with no geographical distance separating us).  I understand it does not mean much to any BS (as a betrayal is a betrayal, in whatever its form), but it mattered to me -- that it was an attempt to hold the lines on boundaries, even though the initial ones (feelings) may be breached.  The definition itself doesn't bother me anymore.  An affair is an affair regardless of its types -- I've come to accept that. I just appreciate someone else understanding the nuance without having to explain why it matters.

There is more I want to add, but I will leave it here for now.

Edited February 22, 2021 by spiritedaway2003

[Soul-shards]

Thank you for understanding, spirited. I fully empathize with your views.

An EA is certainly not more reassuring to BS-es than a full blown affair - this is clear; but for those in the affair, the EA - Full-blown affair is an important distinction, mainly because feelings cannot be controlled, despite  insistence from polite society to the contrary. 

 

[hajk]

@Soul-shards Have you ever looked into books on past lives?

You might find the book Many Lives Many Masters by Dr Brian Weiss fascinating and why we sometimes feel strong connections to certain people.

[Soul-shards]

Thank you for the reccomendation, hajk. I did not know about this book and I will look into it because the past 3 years of my life have been mind-blowing. This has nothing to do with infatuation.

 

[hajk]

@Soul-shards if you just search keywords "Dr Brian Weiss soulmate", there are quite a few Youtube short videos where he discussed this topic.

[notbroken]

Soul Shards - I'd wager the last 3 years of your husband's life hasn't been 'mind blowing'.   His wife's love and attention are with another man.   You can't be 'all there' for him.  You have built up 'Mr Perfect' in your mind so that your husband could never compete.  It is a fantasy that is repeated over and over on this site.  You don't have a mortgage with your AP.  You don't have to live day to day life that can be mundane with him.  Instead you spend insulated time with him that your husband or any other day to day man could never compete with.    What you are doing to your husband is very cruel.  He thinks he is in a normal marriage.  Instead, he is in a sham marriage and is not loved like he could be if he were with someone that thought of him like you do your affair partner (which is NOT nearly as perfect as you imagine him to be and would no doubt discover quickly if you spent ever day with him in the open).    I feel very sorry for your husband.  Inform him so he can make his own choice instead of the one you have made for him without his knowledge.      Justifying it that your husband is better off somehow is a lie.  No one is better off living a lie.   Tell him the truth. 

There isn't some magic circumstances that are keeping you and Mr Perfect together.  Yes, you and he may have kids, mortgage, bills, etc but so do most adults - and many of them divorce every year.   The reason you aren't together is fear and/or because one or both of you just want to continue to live in the fantasy.   Fear to divorce.  It takes a lot of nerve to divorce and go in the open.    Set your husband free.  He and everyone else is likely better off than the dishonesty of living with an unfaithful spouse.  

[Soul-shards]

notbroken,

I have heard all this before in another community, and have explained that I am one of those people - if few - who favor real life outcomes over principle. You are going by principle, as most people are taught to do - I am going by tangible outcomes. Some observations that would hopefully allow a peek into cases like mine below:

1. Yes, I CAN be all there for my H, just like I was before this soulmate appeared. In fact, I am more so now as this encounter truly brought the best out in me.  Unfortunately, our marriage had always had this intellectual/spiritual incompatibility which is very frustrating for me, despite all other things being excellent. There's nothing concrete missing in our marriage (functionality, cooperation, care, affection, companionship, physical intimacy, etc) - except what has always been missing - conversational depth/mental and spiritual connection. I function at deeper, more analytical, more passionate levels, my husband stays on the surface and runs our of things to say pretty fast.

2. This soulmate is not Mr. Perfect. I said he's a soulmate, not Perfect - because I am not perfect either. This is a worn out and erroneous argument, imo,- "Nobody's Perfect'. Well, sure. But people confuse Perfection with High Compatibility. This soulmate and I are of the same cut, in may different ways - without the shadow of a doubt. We know too much about each other to not see that. 

3. Mortgage and the mundane. I don't see how this is relevant. I have all these things with my H because I am married to him, not to soulmate. If I had them with the soulmate, I would attend to them just as dutifully, because life requires functioning, married to a soulmate or not. A mortgage would not make this man any less compatible with me. Again, a false argument.  

4. My husband thinks he is in a normal marriage because in most ways, he is. It is in everyone's best interest that he remains unaware of my EM feelings. I DO love him but it is a very different kind of love than what I feel for this soulmate. We have a history and a family together and so we have obviously developed feelings of attachment.  The chances for him to find someone else, let alone someone who would think of him like I think of this soulmate, are null. That's because he will not go look for anyone after a divorce, let alone a ' perfect soulmate.'  I also don't believe all people have soulmates, because ...well, not everyone is all that ... soulful. All people have good matches, but soulmates? No. I expect to be crucified for this but I stand by what I stated. 

5.

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There isn't some magic circumstances that are keeping you and Mr Perfect together.  Yes, you and he may have kids, mortgage, bills, etc but so do most adults - and many of them divorce every year.

 

And if many choose divorce, why should we feel compelled to follow their example? We are not the divorcing type - neither of us. That doesn't make all those people who divorce for their 'soulmatehood' inherently better than us. If anything, some would argue it makes them worse, because they don't take into account everyone involved - only the convenience and the comfort of getting their relationship out in the open. This involves destroying others in the process and we don't want that.

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It takes a lot of nerve to divorce and go in the open. 

 

And also a lot of callousness. My husband is fine and content with the way his marriage is now. He would be devastated if our family broke. FACT.

Such cases point to why sometimes affairs are necessary, inevitable, fateful - whatever you want to call them, but not always TOXIC.

 As for being in a "sham marriage," are you saying that all marriages where no affairs are going on involve spouses looking at each other like I look at this soulmate? Allow me to not buy this. Too many marriages I know of involve just roommates living together civilly. Is that not a sham too? Just because there's no affair going on doesn't mean those spouses cherish each other. They simply follow the rules and live in largely meaningless but functional marriages. 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Soul-shards

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, Soul-shards said:

notbroken,

I have heard all this before in another community, and have explained that I am one of those people - if few - who favor real life outcomes over principle. You are going by principle, as most people are taught to do - I am going by tangible outcomes. Some observations that would hopefully allow a peek into cases like mine below:

1. Yes, I CAN be all there for my H, just like I was before this soulmate appeared. In fact, I am more so now as this encounter truly brought the best out in me.  Unfortunately, our marriage had always had this intellectual/spiritual incompatibility which is very frustrating for me, despite all other things being excellent. There's nothing concrete missing in our marriage (functionality, cooperation, care, affection, companionship, physical intimacy, etc) - except what has always been missing - conversational depth/mental and spiritual connection. I function at deeper, more analytical, more passionate levels, my husband stays on the surface and runs our of things to say pretty fast.

2. This soulmate is not Mr. Perfect. I said he's a soulmate, not Perfect - because I am not perfect either. This is a worn out and erroneous argument, imo,- "Nobody's Perfect'. Well, sure. But people confuse Perfection with High Compatibility. This soulmate and I are of the same cut, in may different ways - without the shadow of a doubt. We know too much about each other to not see that. 

3. Mortgage and the mundane. I don't see how this is relevant. I have all these things with my H because I am married to him, not to soulmate. If I had them with the soulmate, I would attend to them just as dutifully, because life requires functioning, married to a soulmate or not. A mortgage would not make this man any less compatible with me. Again, a false argument.  

4. My husband thinks he is in a normal marriage because in most ways, he is. It is in everyone's best interest that he remains unaware of my EM feelings. I DO love him but it is a very different kind of love than what I feel for this soulmate. We have a history and a family together and so we have obviously developed feelings of attachment.  The chances for him to find someone else, let alone someone who would think of him like I think of this soulmate, are null. That's because he will not go look for anyone after a divorce, let alone a ' perfect soulmate.'  I also don't believe all people have soulmates, because ...well, not everyone is all that ... soulful. All people have good matches, but soulmates? No. I expect to be crucified for this but I stand by what I stated. 

5.

 

And if many choose divorce, why should we feel compelled to follow their example? We are not the divorcing type - neither of us. That doesn't make all those people who divorce for their 'soulmatehood' inherently better than us. If anything, some would argue it makes them worse, because they don't take into account everyone involved - only the convenience and the comfort of getting their relationship out in the open. This involves destroying others in the process and we don't want that.

 

And also a lot of callousness. My husband is fine and content with the way his marriage is now. He would be devastated if our family broke. FACT.

Such cases point to why sometimes affairs are necessary, inevitable, fateful - whatever you want to call them, but not always TOXIC.

 As for being in a "sham marriage," are you saying that all marriages where no affairs are going on involve spouses looking at each other like I look at this soulmate? Allow me to not buy this. Too many marriages I know of involve just roommates living together civilly. Is that not a sham too? Just because there's no affair going on doesn't mean those spouses cherish each other. They simply follow the rules and live in largely meaningless but functional marriages. 

 

So you've asked? You asked your husband would he be happier in a marriage where you are in love with another,  and content enough to share you?

Of course you haven't,  so like I stated earlier its unbelievable arrogance on your part. 

Of course its a shame marriage,  because if given all the information your husband would likely chose a different path for himself. 

You have absolutely no respect for your husband,  this is made clear by the fact that you believe he can't do better than you, someone who doesn't respect him. That this is all he deserves.  

Just a really sad situation for him..

[Soul-shards]

You misunderstand DKT3. This is what HE believes, not me. He told me so many times - that he knows 100% that this would be his last relationship if our marriage failed. It is not ME who believes that, it is HIM!!

No, I am not telling him about these feelings because I don't want to hurt him and devastate him. It's that simple. Physically, he is not sharing me with anyone - he never has.

Emotionally - it is what it is, nothing I can control - and I am keeping these emotions to myself. It is difficult but everyone would be hurt if these emotions were brought out in the open.

This soulmate and I have no chance of being together anyway. We write to each other, that's all.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards