After a while, it gets tiresome.

[BaileyB]

Soul-shards, have you ever met this man in person? 

[DKT3]

20 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

You misunderstand DKT3. This is what HE believes, not me. He told me so many times - that he knows 100% that this would be his last relationship if our marriage failed. It is not ME who believes that, it is HIM!!

No, I am not telling him about these feelings because I don't want to hurt him and devastate him. It's that simple. Physically, he is not sharing me with anyone - he never has.

Emotionally - it is what it is, nothing I can control - and I am keeping these emotions to myself. It is difficult but everyone would be hurt if these emotions were brought out in the open.

This soulmate and I have no chance of being together anyway. We write to each other, that's all.

Maybe that double talk worked on those in your other site, but not here. 

So are you saying while married you went looking for this soulmate? 

On one hand you're saying that feelings are out of your control,  then you say if divorced your husband wouldn't find a connection like you have with this other guy because he can control his feelings.

Listen,  I know it all sounds good in your head, but here, to most of us it reeks of entitlement,  arrogance and is somewhat delusional. 

If you haven't had that conversation with all the information you have just a slightly better understanding of how your husband would react then we do. The situation is unknown to him, he himself doesn't know how he will react until faced with the reality. 

[mark clemson]

Just to note for your awareness @Soul-shards and OP, some folks around here have a "tell your spouse or bust" moral philosophy when it comes to affairs.

There are valid reasons to support telling, but IMO it is also taking a big risk. Not a risk that every AP poster cares to take.

At any rate, I found your ideas on compatibility interesting, S-s. However I will respectfully point out there is (IMO) something of a flaw in this line of thinking.

The issue is that people change over time. So even if you're extremely compatible at Time X when you marry, you might not stay that way, e.g. 10 or 20 years later. Any number of factors can result in "drifting apart" or other forms of incompatibility. For example, developing a health problem or mental illness (as an extreme/obvious case).

So I think these "extremely compatible" couples you mention are not the norm, and their absence is not a societal failing. They're essentially just lucky they found someone who was compatible at the start AND that they "grew together with" on a LT basis. I don't think there's any way to guarantee this.

Just my two cents on this.

[IfWishesWereFishes]

You know, reading Soul-shards thought processes is actually really helpful in that I can clearly see how much lying you really have to do to stay in this weird carnival world of an affair.  But, I can understand her feelings too in that when in the midst of an affair, I think I literally lost my mind. I still say that affairs are toxic for all the reasons mentioned (and more), but no way nor need to convince someone otherwise. 

As for the EA being somehow less egregious than sex a couple of times, I'd disagree. An EA means the person is in love with the AP even without the physical aspect. And worse is one like mine where it is an EA/PA with both partners proclaiming love. I don't think my marriage is salvageable honestly. I feel like I've lost all feelings for my H. 

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, IfWishesWereFishes said:

You know, reading Soul-shards thought processes is actually really helpful in that I can clearly see how much lying you really have to do to stay in this weird carnival world of an affair.  But, I can understand her feelings too in that when in the midst of an affair, I think I literally lost my mind. I still say that affairs are toxic for all the reasons mentioned (and more), but no way nor need to convince someone otherwise. 

As for the EA being somehow less egregious than sex a couple of times, I'd disagree. An EA means the person is in love with the AP even without the physical aspect. And worse is one like mine where it is an EA/PA with both partners proclaiming love. I don't think my marriage is salvageable honestly. I feel like I've lost all feelings for my H. 

Could be you've lost feelings. Or not.

Women in general are more naturally ingrained monogamous than men. In being so, they often have to detach from one lover to take on another.  The problem with affairs are, they are most often fools gold. 

You feel detached from your husband but he is there, your relationship is as it has been in that he is likely clueless so he hasn't withdrawn from you. 

Secondly,  if you admit or acknowledge that you still have feelings for your husband,  now thats calls your character into question and all that you believe yourself to be.

Its much easier to say, I've lost feelings and that's how I got here. That is rarely true. Smoke and mirrors. 

 

[Soul-shards]

 

Quote

 

Just to note for your awareness @Soul-shards and OP, some folks around here have a "tell your spouse or bust" moral philosophy when it comes to affairs.

There are valid reasons to support telling, but IMO it is also taking a big risk. Not a risk that every AP poster cares to take.

 

Mark,

I am familiar with this moral philosophy but i do not subscribe to it. I found it on the other community too and I have seen that when people adopt it, they tend to be very fanatical about it, as if all affair cases and all people involved in them were cookie-cutter. They believe one should disclose the affair at ANY cost, even when nothing physical happened, and no matter how dire the consequences for the families involved, for the spouse's devastated ego, despite the extreme difficulty of finding another relationship after a certain age, despite spouse's personality, despite children's mental health and destroyed future, etc. They act as if they have all the information, completely disregarding what the poster tells them about context and circumstances. I have also noticed that once they get to that point, they are quick to insult: you are arrogant, entitled, etc.

To this, I can only say: Okay - never mind. I won't try to convince another set that affairs are not cookie-cutter and the stereotypical advice does not fit them all.

I will only clarify that:

1. No, I did not go looking for this soulmate and he did not come looking for me. Our meeting was perfectly accidental. We were brought together by a third party, completely randomly through a professional request.  

2. I never said my husband won't find another relationship because "he can control his feelings." He simply will not go look for another one, period. He tends to be a relatively pessimistic, defeatist type of person and rather low energy, and I know he will no longer bother and he will prefer to be alone if I leave. They tend to do this in his family. This has nothing to do with 'controlling his feelings' because there will be nothing to control. It's amazing how people read what they WANT TO read into the text.

You said:

Quote

However I will respectfully point out there is (IMO) something of a flaw in this line of thinking. The issue is that people change over time. So even if you're extremely compatible at Time X when you marry, you might not stay that way, e.g. 10 or 20 years later. Any number of factors can result in "drifting apart" or other forms of incompatibility. For example, developing a health problem or mental illness (as an extreme/obvious case).

You are bringing up an excellent point. I very much agree with you: people CAN change over time. Not all do - many stagnate, but others grow closer to their full potential. It was more or less the case in my marriage.

What few realize is that time-related changes are always more or less superficial/social because at the core (which is shaped by genetics), people never fully change. If someone was in point A in their 20's but they ended up in point F in their 40's, that's because they'd always had the seed for F in them, and they instinctively knew it; it just that it wasn't a fully grown plant yet, due to environmental conditions, peer influences, parental conditioning, various other opportunities and barriers, etc. By contrast, someone who never had a seed for F in them will never get there, even with 1 million hours of education, marital therapy or what not. 

As young people become more self-aware, have access to better psychological instruments to figure out who they are at the core, and are less inclined to listen to social pressures and to seek a  "social catch"  - I think better, more honest matches will become a possibility. People should truly seek to marry their best friends. A couple should have a strong BFF feeling before they decide they are IT. If other motivations are at play instead - looks/lust, financial prospects, social standing, social respectability, "we make a cute couple," and other visuals - then I would advise any prospective couple to pass. Never mind some people marry due to a need to settle down AND settle (self-esteem issues, fear they will not have another opportunity) or due to time constraints (biological clock, perceived shelf life, etc.) These can be tough factors to deal with. 

The social respectability  incentive is especially powerful because society exerts tremendous pressure on the young to say yes to "model citizens." We are told we'd be crazy to pass the nice guy/good girl who is reliable, hard-working, punctual, keeps promises, always plays by the rules, and pays taxes on time. Say no to one of these, the world will be on your case:  "You rejected a model citizen, serves you right, you deserve all the crap coming to you." So people will often marry the nice guy / good girl even though their heart of hearts might not be  in it 100%.  But they convince themselves it is because whose wouldn't?

Of course, one can never fully control the future. All kinds of random messes can occur, but this is besides the point. Nothing is absolutely guaranteed. However, by starting out with a solid match, the couple is much more likely to grow together and to be immune to outside temptations. That's a fact. When it's too nice, exciting and cozy inside the couple, no one on the outside will look all that interesting. I have seen this in action in marriages in my extended family - and it works miraculously. Marriages varying between 50 and 70 exciting years. The spouses had very high compatibility from the start and I can promise you none of them ever "worked" on the marriage. They were literally hooked on each other. You could flaunt 100 tempting items in front of them, nobody could be as fun and exciting as the spouse. They had a sense of complicity at life. If there's drudgery, being with each other makes it a lot more bearable, not less. I've seen it with my own eyes and I absolutely do not believe in "working on the marriage" in the Sisyphean way most people talk about.

The marriage must work for both of you! If it's the other way around - both of you constantly working on the marriage, then it was not an ideal match. It's like with money: don't work for the money (job), make money work for you (investments).

I say that as someone who has worked on the marriage like a slave for 20 years, because I grew up on the traditional "divorce is not an option" - only to realize it is nobody's fault, we just have an irreparable incompatibility on a dimension that is extremely important to me, but not necessarily to others. Too late. Neither of us is at an age where we can start over, as if we are spring chickens. 

Plus, I would want no one but this soulmate. As I got to know him, I finally understood what kind of person I was supposed to be looking for in my 20's (not that someone like him was easy to find). 

The trick is to figure out early on who the two potential marriage partners are at the core. The physical attraction, social background matching and the aspirationals (money, prospects, status, power) are not where it's at. Core personalities must match. And for those who have a rich inner life, this should take absolute precendece over everything else.

Today, after I've seen what I've seen, I could not be more fanatical about BFF-type compatibility. Some people have their "tell spouse or bust" fanaticism, I have my own kind. BFF-ness is not just for 3rd grade girls. It should be an absolute requirement for marriage and should be drummed into young people's heads until it sinks in.  

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, Soul-shards said:

 

Mark,

I am familiar with this moral philosophy but i do not subscribe to it. I found it on the other community too and I have seen that when people adopt it, they tend to be very fanatical about it, as if all affair cases and all people involved in them were cookie-cutter. They believe one should disclose the affair at ANY cost, even when nothing physical happened, and no matter how dire the consequences for the families involved, for the spouse's devastated ego, despite the extreme difficulty of finding another relationship after a certain age, despite spouse's personality, despite children's mental health and destroyed future, etc. They act as if they have all the information, completely disregarding what the poster tells them about context and circumstances. I have also noticed that once they get to that point, they are quick to insult: you are arrogant, entitled, etc.

To this, I can only say: Okay - never mind. I won't try to convince another set that affairs are not cookie-cutter and the stereotypical advice does not fit them all.

I will only clarify that:

1. No, I did not go looking for this soulmate and he did not come looking for me. Our meeting was perfectly accidental. We were brought together by a third party, completely randomly through a professional request.  

2. I never said my husband won't find another relationship because "he can control his feelings." He simply will not go look for another one, period. He tends to be a relatively pessimistic, defeatist type of person and rather low energy, and I know he will no longer bother and he will prefer to be alone if I leave. They tend to do this in his family. This has nothing to do with 'controlling his feelings' because there will be nothing to control. It's amazing how people read what they WANT TO read into the text.

You said:

You are bringing up an excellent point. I very much agree with you: people CAN change over time. Not all do - many stagnate, but others grow closer to their full potential. It was more or less the case in my marriage.

What few realize is that time-related changes are always more or less superficial/social because at the core (which is shaped by genetics), people never fully change. If someone was in point A in their 20's but they ended up in point F in their 40's, that's because they'd always had the seed for F in them, and they instinctively knew it; it just that it wasn't a fully grown plant yet, due to environmental conditions, peer influences, parental conditioning, various other opportunities and barriers, etc. By contrast, someone who never had a seed for F in them will never get there, even with 1 million hours of education, marital therapy or what not. 

As young people become more self-aware, have access to better psychological instruments to figure out who they are at the core, and are less inclined to listen to social pressures and to seek a  "social catch"  - I think better, more honest matches will become a possibility. People should truly seek to marry their best friends. A couple should have a strong BFF feeling before they decide they are IT. If other motivations are at play instead - looks/lust, financial prospects, social standing, social respectability, "we make a cute couple," and other visuals - then I would advise any prospective couple to pass. Never mind some people marry due to a need to settle down AND settle (self-esteem issues, fear they will not have another opportunity) or due to time constraints (biological clock, perceived shelf life, etc.) These can be tough factors to deal with. 

The social respectability  incentive is especially powerful because society exerts tremendous pressure on the young to say yes to "model citizens." We are told we'd be crazy to pass the nice guy/good girl who is reliable, hard-working, punctual, keeps promises, always plays by the rules, and pays taxes on time. Say no to one of these, the world will be on your case:  "You rejected a model citizen, serves you right, you deserve all the crap coming to you." So people will often marry the nice guy / good girl even though their heart of hearts might not be  in it 100%.  But they convince themselves it is because whose wouldn't?

Of course, one can never fully control the future. All kinds of random messes can occur, but this is besides the point. Nothing is absolutely guaranteed. However, by starting out with a solid match, the couple is much more likely to grow together and to be immune to outside temptations. That's a fact. When it's too nice, exciting and cozy inside the couple, no one on the outside will look all that interesting. I have seen this in action in marriages in my extended family - and it works miraculously. Marriages varying between 50 and 70 exciting years. The spouses had very high compatibility from the start and I can promise you none of them ever "worked" on the marriage. They were literally hooked on each other. You could flaunt 100 tempting items in front of them, nobody could be as fun and exciting as the spouse. They had a sense of complicity at life. If there's drudgery, being with each other makes it a lot more bearable, not less. I've seen it with my own eyes and I absolutely do not believe in "working on the marriage" in the Sisyphean way most people talk about.

The marriage must work for both of you! If it's the other way around - both of you constantly working on the marriage, then it was not an ideal match. It's like with money: don't work for the money (job), make money work for you (investments).

I say that as someone who has worked on the marriage like a slave for 20 years, because I grew up on the traditional "divorce is not an option" - only to realize it is nobody's fault, we just have an irreparable incompatibility on a dimension that is extremely important to me, but not necessarily to others. Too late. Neither of us is at an age where we can start over, as if we are spring chickens. 

Plus, I would want no one but this soulmate. As I got to know him, I finally understood what kind of person I was supposed to be looking for in my 20's (not that someone like him was easy to find). 

The trick is to figure out early on who the two potential marriage partners are at the core. The physical attraction, social background matching and the aspirationals (money, prospects, status, power) are not where it's at. Core personalities must match. And for those who have a rich inner life, this should take absolute precendece over everything else.

Today, after I've seen what I've seen, I could not be more fanatical about BFF-type compatibility. Some people have their "tell spouse or bust" fanaticism, I have my own kind. BFF-ness is not just for 3rd grade girls. It should be an absolute requirement for marriage and should be drummed into young people's heads until it sinks in.  

 

Amazing how you bend your words to fit you ideology,  yet those very same reasons for not informing the spouses are the very same reasons why there shouldn't have been an affair in the first place. 

I subscribe to fundamental truth,  people like you are simply selfish.  You want the affair because it adds excitement,  yet you want your marriage because it's still beneficial to you. Its not because you really care how it will affect others because you are the most important person in your world. 

Yet subconsciously,  you actually know a relationship with your soulmate wouldn't work. 

Question is, how does this all end? What kind of person will you see in the mirror, and what example are you setting? 

[notbroken]

Soul Shard - I really want to know:   Why do you think you have the right to do what you are doing and not inform your husband?  Doesn't he deserve to know the truth about his relationship and something that affects him so greatly (and YES it does)?  

[Soul-shards]

10 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Amazing how you bend your words to fit you ideology,  yet those very same reasons for not informing the spouses are the very same reasons why there shouldn't have been an affair in the first place.

The encounter was not planned and I couldn't ignore my soul. What is there is there. People who belong in mind and spirit CAN meet later in life, when they are irrevocably committed to functional marriages.   I am sorry this doesn't fit your utopian conception of reality ("No affair should ever happen").

 

Quote

I subscribe to fundamental truth,  people like you are simply selfish.  You want the affair because it adds excitement,  yet you want your marriage because it's still beneficial to you. Its not because you really care how it will affect others because you are the most important person in your world. Y

The marriage is beneficial to EVERYONE in our family, not just to me. In fact, it is least beneficial to me. I stay because this is still the best thing for everyone involved. I have more info and data than you do. FACT.

Quote

Yet subconsciously,  you actually know a relationship with your soulmate wouldn't work.  

 

Of course it wouldn't work! That's conscious, not subconscious! We BOTH know that very well. What we would leave behind (broken families, disoriented children) would tarnish all we have. It is better this way. Again, we did not even sleep together, even though we both would want to. 

But thanks for playing.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Soul-shards]

1 hour ago, notbroken said:

Soul Shard - I really want to know:   Why do you think you have the right to do what you are doing and not inform your husband?  Doesn't he deserve to know the truth about his relationship and something that affects him so greatly (and YES it does)?  

You mean a right like a 'human right?' No such thing.

I have a natural right - which is that I simply fell in love with this MM. Nobody can change natural rights. We did not act on it so nothing affects my husband. I still love him the way I always had, my feelings for my H never changed -  but now there is the added bonus that I am no  longer as frustrated because of our intellectual/spiritual incompatibility.

This man is far away (and no, we never resorted to any Internet-enabled sex and we never would, as neither of us are the sordid, crass type). All is 100% clean. 

You ask the wrong question. Does my H deserve to have his heart broken through a confession that will lead to nothing but disaster for all? It won't lead to to him finding a better relationship - not because there isn't someone else out there better suited for him (of course, there is!), but because he won't look for one. I KNOW my H better than anyone else here.

So why would I want to destroy everyone's peace of mind, my husband and children's included?

People who subscribe to the "Confess to S or Bust" moral philosophy are completely removed from reality in the name of a principle. They would nuke the Earth if they had to, as long as their principle prevailed.  

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[mark clemson]

10 hours ago, DKT3 said:

I subscribe to fundamental truth,  people like you are simply selfish. 

How fundamental are we going here?  Is it possible to be alive without being selfish? Last I checked we're all eating food that could be going into someone else's mouth.

Sure affairs are selfish; openly leaving a partner who still wants you around to go find better is selfish too. And of course that has knock on effects.

So I guess you'd better hope you end up happy in your marriage. If not, you either get to be selfish or self-less.

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

What few realize is that time-related changes are always more or less superficial/social because at the core (which is shaped by genetics), people never fully change. If someone was in point A in their 20's but they ended up in point F in their 40's, that's because they'd always had the seed for F in them, and they instinctively knew it; it just that it wasn't a fully grown plant yet, due to environmental conditions, peer influences, parental conditioning, various other opportunities and barriers, etc. By contrast, someone who never had a seed for F in them will never get there, even with 1 million hours of education, marital therapy or what not.

 

I think there's truth to this, but I don't think point F is a foregone conclusion, more one of many potential "paths" of change. It could be G, H, J, or K, depending on things like external circumstances over which one has little control, specific decisions that were made or incidents that occur, etc. We all have the potential to become paraplegic.

To me, the soul-mates thing is a matter of opinion, so I will respectfully decline to debate that notion.

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

I am familiar with this moral philosophy but i do not subscribe to it. I found it on the other community too and I have seen that when people adopt it, they tend to be very fanatical about it, as if all affair cases and all people involved in them were cookie-cutter. They believe one should disclose the affair at ANY cost, even when nothing physical happened, and no matter how dire the consequences for the families involved, for the spouse's devastated ego, despite the extreme difficulty of finding another relationship after a certain age, despite spouse's personality, despite children's mental health and destroyed future, etc. They act as if they have all the information, completely disregarding what the poster tells them about context and circumstances. I have also noticed that once they get to that point, they are quick to insult: you are arrogant, entitled, etc.

 

In some cases that appears to be true, yes.  IF a poster tells and things go very far south for them, they will attempt to give helpful advice (most would), but mostly all they can really do is watch from their keyboard as that poster's life burns (or "creative restructuring" to take a lighter tone  ). Some I think figure "cheaters deserve whatever they get" but of course the cheater's kids did not.

It's also true that similar problems could arise if the BS found out some other way. Those are the risks one takes when one cheats.

It's also true that in some cases telling can lead to a better outcome than if the BS found out some other way. So there is that. However, it's by no means a foregone conclusion and there's no way to predict a good or bad outcome in advance (particularly from behind a keyboard with no real deep insight into the specifics of their marriage and other circumstances).

One could say that pressuring/convincing others into doing this amounts to rolling the dice (and not with good odds) with other people's lives.

[Soul-shards]

Mark,

I agree with most of what you wrote above, thank you for your insights.

Quote

To me, the soul-mates thing is a matter of opinion, so I will respectfully decline to debate that notion.

I understand and respect your point of view. I will have to add that only those who KNOW the event happened to them can see it. I also don't think all people have soulmates. If they are not exactly the 'soulful' type (inner life, spiritual, cerebral, transcendental orientation) how can they even have a soulmate? They sure CAN have very good matches, but not soulmates.

Regardless, aiming for as high a level of compatibility pre-marriage is the best antidote to later disasters, no matter how you twist it. The cerebral and the spiritual must be with the like-minded and like-abled (not the socially spiffy CEO); the materialists with the materialists, the mediocre with the mediocre, the bank robbers with the bank-robbers, etc.  Is it fool proof? Obviously not. Is it a fantastic start? Yes.  The more compatible dimensions, the better. Match-making should be the most important art and science on Earth. Is it? Not even close. Today we have the means, just not the understanding of how important it is or the sense of urgency.  

Forget soulmates, think BFF. What percentage of engaged people truly are BFF-s? Spare me what they tell others or even themselves - this is about how things truly are.

Most don't think much about it - they are just excited to get married and get on with the program because society rewards marriage. It is a functional, effective institution, ideal for raising the young and keeping the economy going. 

Your average engaged couple is motivated by a mixture of physical, social and economic motivations. There are also the timetable/biological clock pressures, desire to have a family in due time. This is especially dire for women, so the pressure to tell oneself he's right when he's not can be tremendous.  We may have longer life spans than you, men, but our living span is much shorter-lived, IYKWIM. 
 

Quote

 

How fundamental are we going here?  Is it possible to be alive without being selfish? Last I checked we're all eating food that could be going into someone else's mouth.

Sure affairs are selfish; openly leaving a partner who still wants you around to go find better is selfish too. And of course that has knock on effects.

 

I am going to be honest here and confess to a pattern I have noticed in the other community too, which I now see it repeated here.

When people in an affair describe a deep sense of connection with their ap (soulmate, meaningful, deep love, high compatibility, etc) the reactions are much more bitter than when the ap confesses to a run-of-the-mill, 'mistake-type' affair and they are ready to "fix the mistake, honey.'

If you tell them the affair is NOT a mistake, and that the ap would do it over an over again if they had to choose under the same circumstances, it gets out of control.

The reactions are knee-jerk, visceral, almost vindictive. The "Confess to S or bust" philosophy mounts to a boiling point where the ap is ordered around or insulted, explanations  about context are actively ignored, dismissed or simply denied. It's as if there is resentment for the audacity to be alive and live meaningfully, which you mentioned above. This is interesting. 

You dare have your cake-and -eat-it too? You dare forget the mortgage and the garbage you take out with spouse (as if you wouldn't have done the same functional things had you been married to the soulmate; or as if the soulmate and spouse are interchangeable pawns). Makes one wonder how most people drag themselves through life with no hope (living lives of quiet desperation, in Thoreau's words) and how such reactions are more a reflection of 'misery loves company' rather than the self-righteous goals they project?

Considering such well-meaning advisers think nothing of destroying families by pushing the ap to confess at any cost, it almost sounds like the motivation is jealousy for someone else's audacity to be alive, than the actual well-being of all people involved.   

 

Quote

One could say that pressuring/convincing others into doing this amounts to rolling the dice (and not with good odds) with other people's lives.

 

The fact that do-gooders can't process this part says it all. Given how dependent on social approval most people are - it's rather scary, come think of it. 

Mark, if you don't mind me asking - are you in an A?

[notbroken]

I personally would want the truth.  I'd want to know my wife didn't think we were compatible and that our relationship was a mistake.  I'd want to know my wife was cheating on me.   I'd think something that affects my relationship was my business and I'd want to know the truth instead of a lie.   Most people would probably agree.   Honestly,  your attitude should serve as a warning to everyone.   There are people that can justify their lying and cheating.   Having a cheating partner would likely leave someone wondering "what's missing?".  Why aren't we quite happy?    Never knowing that part of you is somewhere else and they couldn't quite get all of you.   I'm sorry for your husband and anyone in those shoes.    An entitled attitude and the fact the world seems to revolve around you are warnings to anyone dating a narcissist (I do NOT know that you are and the term is overused today, but your writings sure reflect some of that).   There isn't a win there.  Avoid people like that at all costs.  

Your husband may have said he would never pursue anyone else.   He may even believe that.  You clearly do.   I know quite a few people that said that and went on with happy lives after they divorced.   Even single, your husband may be happier than with someone that cheats on him.   He  might go on to find someone he is compatible with and will be honest with him. You haven't given him the opportunity or choice.  Justify all you want, by infidelity is damaging to your relationship, your husband, and your family - as well as another family in much the same way.  Your affair partner is a liar and cheater and therefore damaging his own family.    We reap what we sow.   Karma.   Whatever you want to call it.   You are getting yours now, you just don't know it yet (and may never acknowledge it).   I hope things work out for your husband.   Most men would want to know.   

[DKT3]

Its all bs really.. its people too weak to be honest then hiding behind this flawed ldea that its in everyone's best interest.

Soulmate are usually what people in relationships they shouldn't be in come up with to not take ownership of their poor behavior. Oh we are Soulmate,  therefore its out of my control.  So immature, so shortsighted.

If cheaters are so confident thier spouses are better off in a relationship with them,  put it to the test.  Give them the information to decide for themselves.  Let's not insert all the excuses why not, for they are the same as why you shouldn't even be in the situation to start with.

 

[Soul-shards]

33 minutes ago, notbroken said:

I personally would want the truth. I'd want to know my wife was cheating on me. 

Obviously. But that's the thing - you don't. Life is paradox. Fascinating how people who scream "Narcissism" fail to see their own. It doesn't occur to you that humans don't get to decide when and if things are revealed to them, and that includes you. That's exactly because life doesn't revolve around ANY of us - you included. We can't control everything, we don't get to know everything that is being said or done in relation to us. We can only expect to be treated well and not be deprived of things we need in tangible ways - love, companionship, care, affection, sex, cooperation, etc. We don't get to decide whether another has developed a feeling/thought for someone else too. And please don't tell me LOVE always equates emotional monogamy. Not necessarily. It depends on the situation and context.
 

Quote

I'd think something that affects my relationship was my business and I'd want to know the truth instead of a lie.

But if you get all you expect in the marriage, your relationship is not de facto affected - your business or not.

Quote

Having a cheating partner would likely leave someone wondering "what's missing?".  Why aren't we quite happy? 

Some partners know what is missing before an A happens. My H knows very well what is missing, I told him many times, well before this person appeared. We tried to fix it but it turns out it is not something fixable, not that part. The rest of the R is very good and my H wants us together, regardless.  He is fine without that part clicking in place, it works for him - I am not. Does that make him selfish?

 

Quote

An entitled attitude and the fact the world seems to revolve around you are warnings to anyone dating a narcissist (I do NOT know that you are and the term is overused today, but your writings sure reflect some of that

 

Your line of thinking could suggest the same thing. I want to know at any cost, it's all about me possessing all information, possesing all parts of my wife, everything. Humans are naturally self-advancing organisms with needs. Once you accept that, life will be easier and you won't throw around the word Narcissism willy-nilly.

 

Quote

Avoid people like that at all costs. 

Which means "avoid people."

 

Quote

 Even single, your husband may be happier than with someone that cheats on him

 

Yes, if he knew that I also have feelings for someone else (only feelings, nothing physical happened). But he doesn't. He is happy now. FACT. I am the one struggling.

 

Quote

Justify all you want, by infidelity is damaging to your relationship, your husband, and your family

I am not justifying anything. I am simply exposing some orthodoxies and blasphemies, that's all. Take it or leave it. Confession and divorce would do 100X more damage to everyone than this infidelity which boils down to exchanging thoughts in writing, all very much respectful, nothing prurient.  

Quote

Your affair partner is a liar and cheater and therefore damaging his own family.

He is a wonderful man. That's all.

Quote

Most men would want to know.   

ALL men THINK they would want to know. Once again, we can't control everything.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Soul-shards]

Quote

How do you handle it if you "feel" stuck? Honesty,  tell your spouse how you feel, what you expect and what will happen if you don't get it.

This argument misses the reality that sometimes spouses cannot give each other what they expect. It's not that they won't. They can't. They try, they really do, but it turns out they are not wired for that. Then what? You take your toys and leave because spouse can't give you what you need? (And you DO, badly, because of the way you're wired!)

Souse 1: asks X (no, it's not sex - that's easy stuff to fix). 

Spouse 2: Tries. Really hard.

Spouse 1: Thank you, but that's not it. You gave me Y. I need X. Like reeaaally X.  Problem still not solved.

Spouse 2: expects Spouse 1 to compromise, adapt, find Y "good enough," accept things as they they are.  

Spouse 1: knows need is far from met, walks around frustrated. 

Children: don't care one parent goes with a certain need unmet, even when that need is vital. They are happy as is, want mom and dad together.  

Marriage: otherwise, very functional - must continue.

Secret: Not all spousal needs can be met through "telling how you feel and working on the marriage." 

Biology is destiny.

 

So who's the narcissist here?

 

[Soul-shards]

Quote

I've gone in circles on this part. No one is ever stuck in a bad marriage,  people stay in bad marriages because they are still personally beneficial. 

More black and white stuff here. What's a "bad" marriage? Where someone takes you by the hair and throws you against a wall leaving you with bruises? Sure enough, no one is stuck in that. You call the cops and run for your life. It's called preservation instinct.  

But this thread is not about 'bad' marriages. It is about unfulfilling marriages that are good in many ways for all involved, just not good enough to feel fulfilled and at peace, for at least one partner. The alternative (divorce) has huge chances of ushering in an even worse status quo for everybody, especially children. 

Of course people stay in good-enough marriages because they are beneficial in some ways - not just to them but to everyone else.

Enter the affair - physical or not.

 

[DKT3]

5 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

This argument misses the reality that sometimes spouses cannot give each other what they expect. It's not that they won't. They can't. They try, they really do, but it turns out they are not wired for that. Then what? You take your toys and leave because spouse can't give you what you need? (And you DO, badly, because of the way you're wired!)

Souse 1: asks X (no, it's not sex - that's easy stuff to fix). 

Spouse 2: Tries. Really hard.

Spouse 1: Thank you, but that's not it. You gave me Y. I need X. Like reeaaally X.  Problem still not solved.

Spouse 2: expects Spouse 1 to compromise, adapt, find Y "good enough," accept things as they they are.  

Spouse 1: knows need is far from met, walks around frustrated. 

Children: don't care one parent goes with a certain need unmet, even when that need is vital. They are happy as is, want mom and dad together.  

Marriage: otherwise, very functional - must continue.

Secret: Not all spousal needs can be met through "telling how you feel and working on the marriage." 

Biology is destiny.

 

So who's the narcissist here?

 

You've written a  lot of words and the only message I get from them all is, if my husband knew he would dump me. Dress that pig however you like, its still a pig.

This idea that spouses are only hurt because the affair is discovered is very sophomoric.  The spouse is affected negatively the second you start to pull away to attach yourself to someone else. 

Go ahead and twist your narrative to fit what makes you feel better about the situation,  however at some point you will have to actually deal with it.

[Soul-shards]

14 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

You've written a  lot of words and the only message I get from them all is, if my husband knew he would dump me.

That's sad. Things can be made simple but not simpl-er.

Quote

 The spouse is affected negatively the second you start to pull away to attach yourself to someone else. 

Who says I pulled away? How do you know what I do?

Quote

Go ahead and twist your narrative to fit what makes you feel better about the situation

It's just a narrative I think more people should be aware of. Why does it make you feel worse about the situation? Why so reactive and threatened? 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[BourneWicked]

I just wanted to say that your words really spoke to me, especially about the importance of marrying your best friend. Something I will do someday, when I'm old, if I ever get a chance. 

I agree about not disclosing, unless there is a real reason for it. In my situation, it ended up being downright dangerous, and had some "side effects" (emotional abuse, violence) that I honestly don't think our relationship will ever recover from. So those of you who know so much about disclosure being the right path... be aware that this advice results in people, mostly women, being hurt, abused, or even dying. 

https://ncadv.org/STATISTICS

 

[Soul-shards]

Are you still in your marriage, Bournewicked?

Yes, marrying your BFF is the answer - the problem is that some people have a much harder time identifying their (BFF + physical attraction) in their young, single days than others. I added PA because BFF without PA does not work. Overall, it's a tall order. The more complex the individual, the taller the order.

Later, after some failed relationships and with familial baggage in hand - it can get even harder.  Human life span doesn't go on and on forever.

One day...how about today?

The "Disclosure at Any Cost" doctrine is a very emotional take on a deontological principle, which is fundamentally irrational. It is a purely reactionary, emotional approach.

Naked Truth is not always the best option for all involved, even if society worships honesty. 

Sometimes, truth will devastate lives much more than some discreet feelings/thoughts for someone else kept to oneself; this is SO even when a physical affair happens - sometimes. It all depends on the context, circumstances, and the personality and post-disclosure prospects of individuals involved. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards

[GorillaTheater]

7 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

Are you still in your marriage, Bournewicked?

Yes, marrying your BFF is the answer - the problem is that some people have a much harder time identifying their (BFF + physical attraction) in their young, single days than others. I added PA because BFF without PA does not work. Overall, it's a tall order. The more complex the individual, the taller the order.

Later, after some failed relationships and with familial baggage in hand - it can get even harder.  Human life span doesn't go on and on forever.

One day...how about today?

The "Disclosure at Any Cost" doctrine is a very emotional take on a deontological principle, which is fundamentally irrational. It is a purely reactionary, emotional approach.

Naked Truth is not always the best option for all involved, even if society worships honesty. 

Sometimes, truth will devastate lives much more than some discreet feelings/thoughts for someone else kept to oneself; this is SO even when a physical affair happens - sometimes. It all depends on the context, circumstances, and the personality and post-disclosure prospects of individuals involved. 

Integrity probably seems like a seriously whacked out idea to someone who's almost solely outcome-oriented.

The flaw seems to be that while we can control the extent to which we act with integrity, we can almost never control any ultimate outcome.

[Soul-shards]

24 minutes ago, GorillaTheater said:

Integrity probably seems like a seriously whacked out idea to someone who's almost solely outcome-oriented.

The flaw seems to be that while we can control the extent to which we act with integrity, we can almost never control any ultimate outcome.

It certainly does. Tangible outcome still matter more than naked principle, because it's real and boils down to actual life. We may not be able to control outcomes fully, but we can sure act in that direction. Never mind that 'principle' is always subject to human projection and interpretation. What is integrity? Something like developing extra-marital feelings (no control) and choosing to communicate them even if one knows nothing good can come out of that? Even knowing such information will cause devastation on all fronts? 

Nuking the Earth can be done in the name of very pure, lofty principles but the outcome is still that the Earth was nuked.

Living with integrity (no cheating ever)  in an unfulfilling marriage, with both spouses standing 0 chances of replacing it with a better one , still amounts to a life poorly lived - even if it was lived according to someone's definition of Integrity. When all is said and done, that definition is still man-made. Life, on the other hand, is real. 

Yes, I am an outcome over principle type. This doesn't mean I favor destruction of everyone around me so only I can get my cake. This is in fact the behavior of those who favor the "Disclose, Divorce, and Go be happy" line.

I want everyone with as much cake as life can allow - and yes, that includes myself. I am a living and breathing organism, just like everyone else, and I can't completely ignore vital needs (note: what is vital for some may not be for others). If I do, frustration and depression rise to the point where others around me end up being affected anyway. Something's gotta give.

I know most people don't like this view  - but they don't have to.    

Edited February 23, 2021 by Soul-shards