After a while, it gets tiresome.

[Soul-shards]

7 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 You took the risk of discovery by cheating, you weren't discovered, and IF you're not comfortable with the prospect of telling, that's really all that matters.

I have a question for you, mark, since I honestly respect your opinion based on what I saw you write.

Do you see this as cheating?

Once again:

Zero sexual engagement, in person or online.

Zero emotional sharing until a little bit, more recently, and even that - very veiled.

No discussions of spouses or home matters.  

Connection is based on intellectual and spiritual compatibility even though we are also attracted to each other, physically. We expressed this in very, very roundabout ways.

We always respect boundaries in the correspodence.

 

Quote

Anyhow, again - thank you for your kind words.

Sincerely.

[Soul-shards]

Acacia98,

I understand what you mean but life is all about odds and likelihoods. Nothing is guaranteed 100%. Yes, anything could happen, including the proverbial asteroid hitting the Earth.

My H and I had rough patches before ( a few, VERY rough ones, and no, I don't mean physical violence; I mean the heartbreaking realization that we could have done better with our marital selection, although my H believes he was meant to be a bachelor and not marry at all. I believe him because he had a pattern of failed R-s before he met me, and certain similar patterns in his own family, whose reasons I eventually understood.

If our marriage was to dissolve, it would have dissolved on those occasions. We BOTH agreed then, that given our wiring, needs, personalities and circumstances, the most important of which are our children - there is nothing out there for us better than what we have now. I don't mean people who suit us better - those obviously exist. But people like that who are available, whom we would find in due time and would be able to start over with?  No. Not for a second marriage, not for "start over-s" and such.

Not anymore, not at our age, not with the family we have now.

Could he be having similar feelings for someone else, like I do? I can tell you I am 100% sure he doesn't - but given anything is possible, theoreticaly, let's assume he may.

And? Then what? If he does, he does. We are stuck in this marriage and we make it work. No more fights from incompatibility-driven frustration, no more frantic attempts on my part to get the M where I needed it to be and was hoping I could get it to some day. I accepted what we have and make the best of it. We are affectionate, we cooperate, are intimate regularly, have date nights, keep the household going, and take care of our children  - all that. We are a very functional couple who care about each other.

 That doesn't means my deeper needs are gone. I love corresponding with this person and that's the end of it. My H has me for himself in all ways he needs. The only part of me he doesn't have is the part I offered over and over again over the years, only for him not to know what to do with, how to satisfy that, or what to make of it.

This MM does. 

Any other questions?  

[Minneloa]

From reading your posts, you seem confident in your perspectives and decisions. Are you seeking advice at this point? Or more support/validation?

[Soul-shards]

This thread was not initiated for advice. It was initiated as a discussion around the statement "Affairs are always toxic." In fact, my posts were moved by the mods from another thread that seemed to proclaim the toxicity of affairs as rule. 

My intention was to bring some nuance and context to this statement and to exemplify with an outlier situation. Point being: exceptions to the rule exist.

People chose to participate in this thread.

I don't seek support or validation because I know I would continue to write with this man anyway. I do feel a bit weird and unsure about the label of what THIS is, which is why I would not mind the opinion of posters like mark. He seems very grounded. I can't call it an A given we don't get many of the things people expect to get out of affairs (sex, physical proximity, bonding over personal matters, etc - although we do some of that in in an indirect way when we discuss life views, beliefs, doctrines and such  (lots of 3rd person).

So EA? I would be tempting to call it just a wonderful friendship but the extra tension is there.    

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Minneloa]

Thank you for the clarification. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, Soul-shards said:

allow me to call it psycho-babble. The love for myself is just fine, but no - I cannot derive the same level of fulfillment from talking to myself as I derive from talking to him.

Not psycho-babble--there is spiritual significance to it so dig deeper. 

Here is some psycho-"babble" that may be of use to you: deflection (through superiority) and justification. These are scattered through your posts.

I relate to deriving the pleasure you speak of here, and frankly my experience with my own xMM (who I also believe is my TF) is parallel to yours with your MM. The pleasure you speak of is only a "hook," which is surface to the deeper purpose of the connection, which I propose is for further development of self (including self-love). The hook is merely a distraction.

Do note that at no time did I accuse you of self-loathing. There are varying degrees of true self-love, of which much may not be cognitive until we work to make it so. We could all learn a little more about love (including self-love devoid of ego), which I believe is the soul's mission on this earth. 

There is something that does not sit 100% correct with you about your relations with MM; otherwise you'd have never come to Loveshack (much less started a thread). Such is your basis, or compass, to next steps on your journey.

Deny it if you wish; such denial would be case in point for my earlier statement of being in denial (i.e. remaining on surface while avoiding the deeper spiritual work that may be calling to you).

These are my observations of YOUR situation. I've done my own work...hard, intensive, self-reflective work with professional assistance over several years. Not saying I'm perfect, no-one is, but I have no need to "project" onto your situation...just in case you reach for that as a means to deflect or avoid what I've said here. 😉 

Edited February 24, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel
Grammer

[Soul-shards]

I know what you mean, Hadmeover.

Yes, the spiritual work, the personal growth, understanding life in all of its complexity, finding more patience and acceptance, the unconditional love part which is mind blowing - all of that happened since I met this person. It's all there.  Had I not, I think my frustrations would have turned even worse, with no escape.

At the same time...well, yes. Something doesn't sit well, of course it doesn't. There is the "more" tension, which is hard to ignore. He knows it too.  There is the wish I had met him (or someone like him) in my 20's when we were both available for marriage...but then I wonder if we'd had noticed each other in the state we were in at the time. All sorts of tormenting questions.

My heart years for this man, so sure it doesn't sit well. At the same time, in practical terms, this is no actual A. There's something amazingly beautiful about it (the opposite of toxic) but also extremely unsettling - and for me painful, too. This is the difficult part and nothing can be done about it.   

[HadMeOverABarrel]

One could make the argument, if nothing more than for the purpose of playing devil's advocate, that the pain and difficulty is the toxic part. But! it is also the pathway to deeper knowledge, growth, understanding if so embraced. 

Also, imo it is an affair.  Here is why: Similar to you, in my own xMM experience there was no sex ever (although a few kissing touchy feely sessions, never intercourse although came very close twice), and we mainly corresponded with each other. The last time I saw him in person, I asked him for the first time what did cheating mean to him. He was adamant during that visit we would not being doing anything beyond friendly chats, so I took the opportunity to get clarity...because I always felt he held back in some ways to justify to himself that he hadn't cheated so long as he didn't cross certain boundaries he set for himself. 

Finally, he admitted in response, "Sex.....possibly this."  "This" was sitting with each other, not touching, in a private space sharing conversation (without anyone's knowledge of where he was at that moment). Yes, it was cheating. It was an affair. It was cheating and an affair because we were hiding it from others who we each cared about.  No justifications can change that fact. 

[Soul-shards]

 

Quote

Also, imo it is an affair.

I took note of your view, thank you. To be honest, I don't even even have an opinion anymore on whether it is or not. I can't vehemently deny it is, neither can I see it as an actual affair.

It's just a THING.

It is frustrating to accept a label without any of the benefits (no sex, no physical proximity, not even the chance for a hug, or to know when he is happy or sad, OK or not, because we avoid sharing personal stuff directly so that this will not turn into a full blown EA). It's like carrying the thief label without any stolen merchandise to at least do something with.  

Quote

One could make the argument, if nothing more than for the purpose of playing devil's advocate, that the pain and difficulty is the toxic part. But! it is also the pathway to deeper knowledge, growth, understanding if so embraced.

Like what, HadmeOver? See...this is where I become skeptical of the babble, whether psych or spiritual. Deeper knowledge, growth and understanding of what?

Believe me, at this moment I understand  more than I care to. I wish I could understand less. 

That my life course was a  mistake? That I should have never ignored my original inkling that my H and I were not the best match, despite both of us being what the community calls 'awesome people' and a  "great couple?"

Unconditional love? I am already doing it. I love and take care of my loved ones - H and children - to the best of my human abilities, despite breaking inside. And the feeling of good will and good wishes I have for this person are difficult to describe. What freaks me out is the complete lack of jealousy I experience when I think of his W. She sounds great based on the limited info I have. The thought she can make him happy is  soothing to me.  How deeply F-ed up is that? I desperately want to feel some jealousy, as any normal person would feel in a supposed A, but I don't. This almost spooks me.    

We can do spiritual babble all we want but in the end, we can't escape our condition as material beings living in society. For this only, I wish I'd waited to find what I truly needed, instead of being so overwhelmed by social pressure, respectable /sensible talk, various expiration dates and fertility fears, and last but not least, a mental umbilical cord to my own family which I was yet to cut in my 20's.

This is heavy crap, really. Thanks for your insights.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Soul-shards

[mark clemson]

Hi @Soul-shards + thanks again for your kind words -

EAs tend to be a grey area, with plenty of room for interpretation.  Contrast:

 

5 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Zero sexual engagement, in person or online.

Zero emotional sharing until a little bit, more recently, and even that - very veiled.

No discussions of spouses or home matters.

We always respect boundaries in the correspodence.

 

With:

5 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Connection is based on intellectual and spiritual compatibility even though we are also attracted to each other, physically. We expressed this in very, very roundabout ways.

4 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

At the same time...well, yes. Something doesn't sit well, of course it doesn't. There is the "more" tension, which is hard to ignore. He knows it too.  There is the wish I had met him (or someone like him) in my 20's when we were both available for marriage...

My heart yearns for this man, so sure it doesn't sit well. At the same time, in practical terms, this is no actual A. There's something amazingly beautiful about it (the opposite of toxic) but also extremely unsettling - and for me painful, too. This is the difficult part and nothing can be done about it.   

 

To some extent it is a judgement call. Also keep in mind that friendships/flirtations can sometimes gradually slip into EAs (which seems to be what's happening here IMO) and sometimes from there into full-on PAs.

In my view it's an EA or starting to become one.

Whether the current level of "contact" would actually bother your husband is an open question. It might, it might not. It might not bother him if you explain the existence of the friendship, but it MIGHT bother him a lot of you mention "yearnings". One really never knows how a partner would react.

You are an adult and will make your own decisions. To my mind the course of wisdom would probably be to end it. There is a chance for these "so good but can't have" situations to turn into the psychological phenomenon of limerence, which is a somewhat rare (5 or so times in a lifetime) psychological state that can start to feel both like a drug-like effect, but also an intense and psychologically painful addictive longing. It's possible IMO your situation is on it's way to full-blown limerence. You are safe from physical contact, but the "yearning" may start to really torture you after a while. One of the big problems with limerence (along with the potential for losing self-control for some folks) is that once it gets going you can't shut it off, thoughts of the other person can become nearly constant and "intrusive". So the "mental torture" (which actually feels good at first) can become quite wearying after a while.

That's my two cents on the matter. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

Edited February 24, 2021 by mark clemson

[Soul-shards]

I am afraid it already is - the psychologically painful addictive longing, I mean. But this being 'Limerance' doesn't mean what we have (the hugge compatibility) is not real, because it is.

This R will soon be at three years but  it only recently started to 'heat up' in some more or less acknowledged ways. It's actually kind of scary - both continuing and cutting it.

If I did cut it, the void left would be unbearable. In fact, I honestly can't. I couldn't NOT respond to him anymore. If he cut it, I would immediately comply without another word because I am in a state where I want what he thinks is best for him, even if that meant terrible pain on my end.  But as of now, he wants us to go on.

Well, I read your "Which is more selfish - Cheating or Divorce?" thread and all I can say is I'm impressed with the way your mind works.

Indeed, when it comes to these issues, people are 90% emotion, ego and self-righteousness, 10% logic (if you're lucky).  

I tried to make the same arguments in the other community but I was flailing in terms of presenting clear trains of thought - not that my points were not valid. 

I fully agree with all arguments you made in that thread. In fact, I think they are close to flawless.

It's amazing how it escapes most people that the conventional view here is mostly emotional - "cheating is ALWAYS bad or hands down more selfish than divorcing".

When it's actually not.  It's how most humans think,  I guess. Well, I take that back - how they emote - even when they are invited to engage in a rational argument. It's one thing to emote as a BS or a human in love - in the middle of it all. It's another thing to believe you are arguing rationally when in reality...you're still just emoting, engaged in ego projection. 

As you correctly pointed out - a majority emoting in consensus doesn't make a point correct, with desirable outcomes in reality. 

No wonder the world is a mess. Most people live in social projection, not through connection to reality. I did too when I listened to the siren song of social sensibility in my 20's, which sounded very much like what I read now on these R forums, except on a different topic. 

I still resent that.  

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Beentheretoooften]

Best thread-starter ever. Soul-shards your words are beautiful.  I get perfectly where You are coming from, what you mean, and everything else. Nothing to add, just had to tell you. I’ve read your opening post many times, and will pass it along to my close friend. 

[DKT3]

5 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

I am afraid it already is - the psychologically painful addictive longing, I mean. But this being 'Limerance' doesn't mean what we have (the hugge compatibility) is not real, because it is.

This R will soon be at three years but  it only recently started to 'heat up' in some more or less acknowledged ways. It's actually kind of scary - both continuing and cutting it.

If I did cut it, the void left would be unbearable. In fact, I honestly can't. I couldn't NOT respond to him anymore. If he cut it, I would immediately comply without another word because I am in a state where I want what he thinks is best for him, even if that meant terrible pain on my end.  But as of now, he wants us to go on.

Well, I read your "Which is more selfish - Cheating or Divorce?" thread and all I can say is I'm impressed with the way your mind works.

Indeed, when it comes to these issues, people are 90% emotion, ego and self-righteousness, 10% logic (if you're lucky).  

I tried to make the same arguments in the other community but I was flailing in terms of presenting clear trains of thought - not that my points were not valid. 

I fully agree with all arguments you made in that thread. In fact, I think they are close to flawless.

It's amazing how it escapes most people that the conventional view here is mostly emotional - "cheating is ALWAYS bad or hands down more selfish than divorcing".

When it's actually not.  It's how most humans think,  I guess. Well, I take that back - how they emote - even when they are invited to engage in a rational argument. It's one thing to emote as a BS or a human in love - in the middle of it all. It's another thing to believe you are arguing rationally when in reality...you're still just emoting, engaged in ego projection. 

As you correctly pointed out - a majority emoting in consensus doesn't make a point correct, with desirable outcomes in reality. 

No wonder the world is a mess. Most people live in social projection, not through connection to reality. I did too when I listened to the siren song of social sensibility in my 20's, which sounded very much like what I read now on these R forums, except on a different topic. 

I still resent that.  

 

So your basically saying cheater who want to stay married and will do so by lying and misleading are more emotionally evolved?

Drug dealer identify with other drug dealers.  None drug dealers who can't or see the behavior as toxic and harmful are emotionally charged illogical morons 🙄.  Got it.

 

[Wiseman2]

13 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

  I tried to make the same arguments in the other community 

Ok, have you ever met in person?  Is distance the reason you didn't consummate your love?

Are you in an arranged marriage? Is your lover married as well?

How did you meet? Through social media or gaming or other interest groups?

 

[Fletch Lives]

^^^^^^are you startin a counseling session up in here?! 🙂

[spiritedaway2003]

I'm glad this got moved into its own thread, Soul-Shards.

I like many of the regulars and I know most of us meant well, though none of us are without our biases. It’s a bit unfortunate that even practical, cautious advice highlighting the risks of “telling vs not telling” are quick to be twisted as supporting cheating - even when that isn't true.   

I find your posts refreshing because I’ve lived it.   When you come across a rare connection, you just know, and your heart takes flight.  I get it.  And I'm no stranger to philosophies around soul families but let's skip all of that because they detract from the conversation.   It might very well be true that you’ve never experienced anything like it in your life, even with your husband. (How does he compete with it?  He can’t).  

I get all of it, but now let’s take it down a notch. So what's next knowing what you now know? 

Right now, you can’t define this ‘thing’ you have because it’s not an affair in the traditional sense.  There are a few ways of looking at the situation.  One is an incredible discovery of another kindred spirit that leaves you ...wanting.  Another way, at least through the the context of this forum, is that you’re in the beginning of an EA (if you want to define and put a label on it).

I mean this well, but you also just need to be wary of spouse’s statement of “he would never find anyone else” as a gospel truth.  Yes, he might even believe that wholeheartedly, and you know him better than all of us (factually true).  Yet, you don’t truly know exactly how he’d react to the betrayal until it happens.  You have an educated guess as to how things would happen, but you also don't know where his life's paths will take him.  He might meet someone new that is his match, just like you didn't expect you would meet your soulmate.

You are here because you are trapped in a relationship construct that no longer fits what your heart desires.  It's like finally finding a piece of the missing puzzle.  But let’s jump ahead a bit -- if distance isn’t a factor and your soulmate wants to make a go at it, where would you then take the relationship?  If you are honest about that, I think you know we would be having a very different conversation here.

Edited February 25, 2021 by spiritedaway2003
typo

[Soul-shards]

10 hours ago, DKT3 said:

So your basically saying cheater who want to stay married and will do so by lying and misleading are more emotionally evolved?

Drug dealer identify with other drug dealers.  None drug dealers who can't or see the behavior as toxic and harmful are emotionally charged illogical morons 🙄.  Got it.

 

Not at all what I am saying, DKT3. Not even a little bit. You are so far from getting it, it's frightening. 

Mark simply made a logical argument in that thread and he defended it successfully. He opened for discussion the popular belief that 'cheating is always more selfish than divorcing' and he questioned it. Cheaters face massive opprobrium, divorcers do not. The latter get the pass for doing something perfectly socially acceptable, even though the amount of selfishness involved in the divorcing act can be astounding. 

Mark built the argument that cheating is not always more selfish than divorce - not necessarily. It may be in some cases, but not all. He proposed that both actions (cheating and divorcing) are inherently selfish because both boil down to addressing a need of the cheater or initiator of divorce, respectively. Getting bogged down in the emotionality and moralism of means and principle (HOW the spouse addresses those unmet needs) is missing the point of ENDS/OUTCOMES - which is that lives will be disrupted and pain will/may be caused as a result of these actions.. If you focus on the ENDS, divorce, on average, ushers in more disruption, loss, instability and pain to a larger number of people than cheating. Higher odds for messed up lives. This is an absolute fact and he had the patience to demonstrate it logically.

Everyone else reacts emotionally because they abhor the morals and esthetics of cheating when they project what it would be like if this happened to them (or if it already happened to them and it was discovered). This misses the point that more than half the times cheating goes unnoticed, or that some BS-e are more devastated if they are left/abandoned/invited to be "free" and go look for someone else even when they are not in a position to do so. 

Mark did much better in terms of logical expression and composure than I could have ever done, considering I share similar views, and granted the highly sensitive and moralistic nature of the topic which causes people like yourself to knee-jerk react. 

The cleanest, most morally pristine argument is that MP -s should act in purely selfless ways and neither cheat nor divorce, regardless. They should simply turn to sainthood (halo over head) in the name of "vows." They should ignore their needs, no matter how deep or pressing, place family ahead of everything else, and live a meaningless, frustrated life, or find meaning in martyrdom.

The "work on the marriage" argument is irrelevant because it is assumed this has already been done high and lo, and that need, whatever that is, cannot be met period, for a variety of reasons (often genetic).

This is the kind of stuff people want to hear because it sounds so lofty, moralistic and pure (projection)  - that until the pressing need tortures THEM, personally.

Humans are living organisms with selfishness built into their DNA. If some people neither cheat nor divorce and can walk around looking so not-selfish that's because they were lucky to not have any pressing needs unmet. Sure, all married people go with some needs unmet, but nothing as important as to cause distress. Some needs are more vital than others. Also, the more complex a human is, the deeper, more nuanced, and harder to meet his/her needs are.

That's it.  If you don't understand these arguments, there's nothing else to discuss. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Soul-shards]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok, have you ever met in person?  Is distance the reason you didn't consummate your love?

Are you in an arranged marriage? Is your lover married as well?

How did you meet? Through social media or gaming or other interest groups?

 

Wiseman,

If you don't mind, I will skip some of these questions and the details they would require - for privacy-related reasons. I know this is the Internet but you never know.

No, my marriage was not arranged. We met, I saw many excellent qualities in my H, the kind society gushes over  - and I was correct. We were also physically attracted to each other (an important prerequisite), and I was exhausted after two failed R-s where I only knew anxiety and insecurity. With my H, it felt calm and safe. I also faced huge pressures to be married sooner (this would require some technical details which I cannot offer) and I sincerely wanted a family. There was only one caveat: an inkling told me we were not the best match, internally. I needed much deeper conversation, intellectual connection, and a sense of leadership from my partner. He tended to stay on the superficial side in most matters, running out of things to say quickly, avoiding introspection, and deferring to me more often than I cared. 

Considering all other fantastic qualities he had, my 20 yo self believed it would have been silly to pass a guy like him for an idiosyncrasy or whim.  It turned out it was not a whim but some serious differences in our wiring that slowly drove me insane over the years.  I suppose I am paying for my youth mistake but looking back, I too was inexperienced, uninformed, immature - never mind very socially impressionable. I could not have imagined saying NO to a man as wonderful by the book as my H is in many different ways.  He still is that way.

As for my lover - he's not a lover. (Sometimes I wish, honestly). But yes, he is married. We live several states apart so we correspond. I will skip the how we met part - I will just say it was pure accident, neither of us was looking.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Soul-shards

[DKT3]

58 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

Not at all what I am saying, DKT3. Not even a little bit. You are so far from getting it, it's frightening. 

Mark simply made a logical argument in that thread and he defended it successfully. He opened for discussion the popular belief that 'cheating is always more selfish than divorcing' and he questioned it. Cheaters face massive opprobrium, divorcers do not. The latter get the pass for doing something perfectly socially acceptable, even though the amount of selfishness involved in the divorcing act can be astounding. 

Mark built the argument that cheating is not always more selfish than divorce - not necessarily. It may be in some cases, but not all. He proposed that both actions (cheating and divorcing) are inherently selfish because both boil down to addressing a need of the cheater or initiator of divorce, respectively. Getting bogged down in the emotionality and moralism of means and principle (HOW the spouse addresses those unmet needs) is missing the point of ENDS/OUTCOMES - which is that lives will be disrupted and pain will/may be caused as a result of these actions.. If you focus on the ENDS, divorce, on average, ushers in more disruption, loss, instability and pain to a larger number of people than cheating. Higher odds for messed up lives. This is an absolute fact and he had the patience to demonstrate it logically.

Everyone else reacts emotionally because they abhor the morals and esthetics of cheating when they project what it would be like if this happened to them (or if it already happened to them and it was discovered). This misses the point that more than half the times cheating goes unnoticed, or that some BS-e are more devastated if they are left/abandoned/invited to be "free" and go look for someone else even when they are not in a position to do so. 

Mark did much better in terms of logical expression and composure than I could have ever done, considering I share similar views, and granted the highly sensitive and moralistic nature of the topic which causes people like yourself to knee-jerk react. 

The cleanest, most morally pristine argument is that MP -s should act in purely selfless ways and neither cheat nor divorce, regardless. They should simply turn to sainthood (halo over head) in the name of "vows." They should ignore their needs, no matter how deep or pressing, place family ahead of everything else, and live a meaningless, frustrated life, or find meaning in martyrdom.

The "work on the marriage" argument is irrelevant because it is assumed this has already been done high and lo, and that need, whatever that is, cannot be met period, for a variety of reasons (often genetic).

This is the kind of stuff people want to hear because it sounds so lofty, moralistic and pure (projection)  - that until the pressing need tortures THEM, personally.

Humans are living organisms with selfishness built into their DNA. If some people neither cheat nor divorce and can walk around looking so not-selfish that's because they were lucky to not have any pressing needs unmet. Sure, all married people go with some needs unmet, but nothing as important as to cause distress. Some needs are more vital than others. Also, the more complex a human is, the deeper, more nuanced, and harder to meet his/her needs are.

That's it.  If you don't understand these arguments, there's nothing else to discuss. 

Yes, I'M the one not getting it..

[Soul-shards]

2 hours ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

I'm glad this got moved into its own thread, Soul-Shards.

I like many of the regulars and I know most of us meant well, though none of us are without our biases. It’s a bit unfortunate that even practical, cautious advice highlighting the risks of “telling vs not telling” are quick to be twisted as supporting cheating - even when that isn't true.   

I find your posts refreshing because I’ve lived it.   When you come across a rare connection, you just know, and your heart takes flight.  I get it.  And I'm no stranger to philosophies around soul families but let's skip all of that because they detract from the conversation.   It might very well be true that you’ve never experienced anything like it in your life, even with your husband. (How does he compete with it?  He can’t).  

I get all of it, but now let’s take it down a notch. So what's next knowing what you now know? 

Right now, you can’t define this ‘thing’ you have because it’s not an affair in the traditional sense.  There are a few ways of looking at the situation.  One is an incredible discovery of another kindred spirit that leaves you ...wanting.  Another way, at least through the the context of this forum, is that you’re in the beginning of an EA (if you want to define and put a label on it).

I mean this well, but you also just need to be wary of spouse’s statement of “he would never find anyone else” as a gospel truth.  Yes, he might even believe that wholeheartedly, and you know him better than all of us (factually true).  Yet, you don’t truly know exactly how he’d react to the betrayal until it happens.  You have an educated guess as to how things would happen, but you also don't know where his life's paths will take him.  He might meet someone new that is his match, just like you didn't expect you would meet your soulmate.

You are here because you are trapped in a relationship construct that no longer fits what your heart desires.  It's like finally finding a piece of the missing puzzle.  But let’s jump ahead a bit -- if distance isn’t a factor and your soulmate wants to make a go at it, where would you then take the relationship?  If you are honest about that, I think you know we would be having a very different conversation here.

Spirited,

Thank you for your supportive words - much appreciated.

I agree there's no point in delving into Spiritual Theories - most people dismiss them anyway. All I wanted to emphasize is that the connection is indeed mind-boggling. You said "not even with husband." Well, yes, without a doubt. At this point, this man knows corners of my mind and soul that my H doesn't - not because I withheld them from him, but because he can't access them. I have made repeated attempts over the years to reveal those things to him and he doesn't know what to make of them. It's more like he listens, says "I see," and moves on. They don't speak to him that much. The soulmate has lived them himself and gets every second of it - plus we have the language to discuss them due to similar interests and areas. My H simply doesn't get into those layers of consciousness - and oh, how much I have invited him over the years! He's just not wired for that. 

Not only this, but the odds of finding someone with whom I could have experienced this level of connection were very low to begin with. I am not saying this from a subjective point of view (nothing like my special case). I am saying it from a measurable, objective angle. If you look at Myers Briggs theories and other psychological measures of human wiring, well...this MM counts among a very tiny minority. I float around there as well. Yes, he has been tested in that regard, and so have I. The odds of people with our psych profile to find each other are very low. When they do, it's a tornado. Again, that's a fact.

I think this played into my decision-making process in my 20's. Instinctively, I knew the prototype I needed was very difficult to come by anyway - and sure enough, I was right. It took 20 years to accidentally come across one (again, I was not looking).

In 20 years, I was not tempted even once, not even with a glance at another man. I know this may cause  some to ROFL, but I am not what many think of as the ...'cheating type.'  Some people are simply more lighthearted, open, flirty, flighty, flaky..the.'you-never-know' types with a perennial 'come hither' look on their face. Take all that and imagine the very opposite. Highly traditional, reserved, 'respectable', the intense/deep, introspective type. Despite having been referred to as 'very pretty/attractive' over the  years, I was always the kind to keep any flirty vibes severely in check. Men always get those 'unavailable' vibes, no matter the exterior. They mean "move along, nothing to see here' - and they do. By contrast, some women naturally wear a vibe of flirty availability even when they are not aware of it and are committed to someone else.   

Until a few years ago, I could have given anyone a lecture about marital vows and 'no divorce' under any circumstances (which, actually I still do - because families are massive enterprises that are not just about the needs of individual spouses; individual lives, especially children's, communities and social order are destroyed when they are broken). 

Yet when this encounter came along, it flipped everything on its head. It was not a matter of 'stepping away.' I couldn't, so I don't regret anything. I only struggle with the regret of not having been as self-aware in my 20's, and not having waited. Then again, I turn around and need to let my 20 yo self off the hook, given the pressures I faced at the time and my real odds of finding the right match. Had I waited for my prize, I would have still been single and looking in my mid 40's - and forget children, which I wanted very much. It's not like this MM (or similar) would have been right there, single and available, waiting with open arms for that splendid pre-menopausal woman to make his life complete. Seriously?

How do I know my H  will not find someone else? I can see why people are reluctant to take me at my word with this one, but again for privacy-related reasons, I'd rather not delve into details. He will not look. I know that. Not only did he state it many times but I know it is true, based on his personality, wiring, and patterns in his family. He is an odd duck in his own way. It is extremely likely he will have a huge fall as a result of me simply serving him with D papers and stepping away. He has some stuff in his past that would make me extremely afraid he would fall into massive depression and do crazy things. So no.

This combined with the fact that I have nowhere to step away to - and it makes D completely irrational. It will only result in all of our lives devastated with no good outcome for anyone because this MM is nowhere close to the idea that it's OK to leave one's family either. After all, we match in our views on life. He loves his family as much as I love mine. There is NO future for us as a couple. NONE. 

Why do we keep communicating? I don't know. I would have stopped if he'd told me it's time to put an end to this. I even asked - and he clearly indicated he hopes we will always be able to continue this. He actually said that.

You ask: what next? You're right I feel trapped in a construct that no longer fits what my heart desires. Well, my heart desired differently before I met him too, but since no tangible alternative existed in front of my eyes, I simply lived with the frustration. Now that this tangible alternative is right in front of my eyes, it's excruciating.

Where would I take the R if distance wasn't a factor and he wanted to make a go at it?

Nowhere polite society would like to hear about.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Soul-shards

[DKT3]

3 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Not at all what I am saying, DKT3. Not even a little bit. You are so far from getting it, it's frightening. 

Mark simply made a logical argument in that thread and he defended it successfully. He opened for discussion the popular belief that 'cheating is always more selfish than divorcing' and he questioned it. Cheaters face massive opprobrium, divorcers do not. The latter get the pass for doing something perfectly socially acceptable, even though the amount of selfishness involved in the divorcing act can be astounding. 

Mark built the argument that cheating is not always more selfish than divorce - not necessarily. It may be in some cases, but not all. He proposed that both actions (cheating and divorcing) are inherently selfish because both boil down to addressing a need of the cheater or initiator of divorce, respectively. Getting bogged down in the emotionality and moralism of means and principle (HOW the spouse addresses those unmet needs) is missing the point of ENDS/OUTCOMES - which is that lives will be disrupted and pain will/may be caused as a result of these actions.. If you focus on the ENDS, divorce, on average, ushers in more disruption, loss, instability and pain to a larger number of people than cheating. Higher odds for messed up lives. This is an absolute fact and he had the patience to demonstrate it logically.

Everyone else reacts emotionally because they abhor the morals and esthetics of cheating when they project what it would be like if this happened to them (or if it already happened to them and it was discovered). This misses the point that more than half the times cheating goes unnoticed, or that some BS-e are more devastated if they are left/abandoned/invited to be "free" and go look for someone else even when they are not in a position to do so. 

Mark did much better in terms of logical expression and composure than I could have ever done, considering I share similar views, and granted the highly sensitive and moralistic nature of the topic which causes people like yourself to knee-jerk react. 

The cleanest, most morally pristine argument is that MP -s should act in purely selfless ways and neither cheat nor divorce, regardless. They should simply turn to sainthood (halo over head) in the name of "vows." They should ignore their needs, no matter how deep or pressing, place family ahead of everything else, and live a meaningless, frustrated life, or find meaning in martyrdom.

The "work on the marriage" argument is irrelevant because it is assumed this has already been done high and lo, and that need, whatever that is, cannot be met period, for a variety of reasons (often genetic).

This is the kind of stuff people want to hear because it sounds so lofty, moralistic and pure (projection)  - that until the pressing need tortures THEM, personally.

Humans are living organisms with selfishness built into their DNA. If some people neither cheat nor divorce and can walk around looking so not-selfish that's because they were lucky to not have any pressing needs unmet. Sure, all married people go with some needs unmet, but nothing as important as to cause distress. Some needs are more vital than others. Also, the more complex a human is, the deeper, more nuanced, and harder to meet his/her needs are.

That's it.  If you don't understand these arguments, there's nothing else to discuss. 

Again alot of words not saying much.

You have constructed this entire argument to make yourself feel ok about what you're doing. 

Its all so simple yet you throw more words, more meaningless "logic" on top of. You won't convince anyone,  those in like situations will identify with it well because they are in the same situation. You not the first to make these exact arguments here, nothing new.. I know you believe its profound and you've really figured it out and came here to enlighten us less evolved faithful people who live by honesty.  Its not working. 

[Soul-shards]

DKT3,

I have responded to your message pointing out that you dismiss all of my words, appeal to logic, or rational argument - without willingness to examine them on their own merit. The mods did not find my way of saying what I had to say in accordance to community guidelines, so they deleted that post. I acknowledged the notification.

 So let me try another way to convey it - hopefully they will be fine with this version.

All I can say is that you simply impose your emotional and moralistic bias, with nothing else to add to the argument. As Mark summarized it much more elegantly in another thread - strong in emotion, weak in argument (I would add 'strong in moralizing,' which of course, involves emotion).

This is the maximum you are willing to do. Whatever I present - you dismiss, practically calling it "bogus" from the start.

This is fine, of course, as you are entitled to your own views.

My words and "meaningless logic" are for those willing to read them on their own merit and give them some consideration. You are not one of those, which is fine.

Logic, btw, is not meaningless. Dismissing an argument right off the bat, with zero good will or willingness to consider another perspective rationally - that is.

Best wishes.

[DKT3]

39 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

DKT3,

I have responded to your message pointing out that you dismiss all of my words, appeal to logic, or rational argument - without willingness to examine them on their own merit. The mods did not find my way of saying what I had to say in accordance to community guidelines, so they deleted that post. I acknowledged the notification.

 So let me try another way to convey it - hopefully they will be fine with this version.

All I can say is that you simply impose your emotional and moralistic bias, with nothing else to add to the argument. As Mark summarized it much more elegantly in another thread - strong in emotion, weak in argument (I would add 'strong in moralizing,' which of course, involves emotion).

This is the maximum you are willing to do. Whatever I present - you dismiss, practically calling it "bogus" from the start.

This is fine, of course, as you are entitled to your own views.

My words and "meaningless logic" are for those willing to read them on their own merit and give them some consideration. You are not one of those, which is fine.

Logic, btw, is not meaningless. Dismissing an argument right off the bat, with zero good will or willingness to consider another perspective rationally - that is.

Best wishes.

Here is my issue with you, you're not honest with yourself.  I've seen you go from once in a lifetime soulmate to you're just friends with tension. There is no logic to support your stance, its all emotionally based dribble. You are an intelligent woman so you can craft words to make it sound profound, at the end of the day just another typical cheater who will do anything to prevent consequences or take ownership. 

I would venture to guess you are actually a lovely person that has gotten yourself in a situation that you know it wrong, I would guess it's weighing heavy on you. 

Here is the problem,  the more guilt you feel the more complicated your justifications.  Has to be exhausting. 

[Allupinnit]

@Soul-shards - Mark actually started a thread on this very thing.  He was also involved in an affair and is convinced that staying was the less selfish decision.  So it's really no wonder you are validating each other's experiences.  Maybe someone here can link to it - I'm sure you'd find it helpful.

Many of us, though, DO value fidelity to a fault and wonder why those of you who are ok with blurred lines in marriage don't stick together.  Stop the lying.  I'd be completely devastated to know my H had a "soul mate" that changed him in such a profound way that he had to scour the internet anonymously for justifications and approval of his betrayal to our marriage.  

I believe that marriage has absolutely everything to do with souls intertwining because it's when we don't exactly "FEEL" like it and show up for our spouse that the romance often follows.  Your husband may not be the wordsmith this total online stranger you THINK you know is but nevertheless he is your husband and we are to be giving continuously one to the other.  The key to deep satisfaction and contentment is selflessness.  You are feeding a fleeting feeling that has the potential for catastrophic consequences to yourself and your families.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Allupinnit

[Soul-shards]

35 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Here is my issue with you, you're not honest with yourself.  I've seen you go from once in a lifetime soulmate to you're just friends with tension. There is no logic to support your stance, its all emotionally based dribble. You are an intelligent woman so you can craft words to make it sound profound, at the end of the day just another typical cheater who will do anything to prevent consequences or take ownership. 

I would venture to guess you are actually a lovely person that has gotten yourself in a situation that you know it wrong, I would guess it's weighing heavy on you. 

Here is the problem,  the more guilt you feel the more complicated your justifications.  Has to be exhausting. 

It's both, DKT3!. I am not sure where you see the contradiction. 'Once in a lifetime soulmate' and 'friends with tension' are not mutually exclusive. Both can be happening simultaneously.

We have both been very careful with this interaction for a very long time - hence 'friends with tension.' Turns out there has been some of that on both sides. For a while, I thought the non-platonic feelings were only on my end, but more recent exchanges suggest there has been something going on his end too. The same depth of feeling as mine? I don't know, probably not. But it does sound like something has been going on.

Not sure if it's 'romantic feelings' per se or just a potential erotic interest, in addition to the friendship and the mental connectiom ...I do not know. We have fought tooth and nail to keep things perfectly clean, it's been a few years after all  - but yes, now I know there is also sexual tension. 

I am 100% honest with myself, I don't know why you'd think otherwise. What do you think I am lying to myself about? 

Well, of course I know the situation is wrong - from an ethical, moral and social standpoint. Sure there is guilt, I'd be a psychopath if there was none, don't you think? 

But it is also a very deep convinction this is right for my soul. I simply couldn't initiate the end. The encounter changed me in dramatic ways, many of which have been very beneficial for my family. Of course, the longing, guilt, and the need to keep this private - are not. Sure it's exhausting. You think???

Thank you for the charitable words, I belive the same about you. I am sorry you were a victim of infidelity and I am glad you were able to stay true to your moral convictions and commitments. I know you wouldn't believe that, but being the conservative and very loyal type, I can promise you that, had I been married to this MM or similar, I would have received the prize for the most faithful woman alive. I very much deserved it anyway until this man came along, because again - 0 interest in 0 men except my husband for 20+ years of irreproachable fidelity. Some people in the other community even refused to believe this was platonic for so long because they say no men and woman can kep going like this without things progressing, An yet - this is how it was, becayse we are both of the same ilk.

I don't have the natural 'cheating' streak in me, yet due to mismatch in natural wiring between H and I, you circle back to nature; and in nature, like in physics, something's gotta give.