After a while, it gets tiresome.

[LivingWaterPlease]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:02 PM, Soul-shards said:

Physically, I have always been 100% faithful to my husband and this still applies at this moment.

 

 

 

No, Ma'am. You absolutely have not. This statement alone shows you are disconnected from the reality of your situation.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by LivingWaterPlease

[Wiseman2]

Does your husband know how unfulfilled and unhappy you are?

Does Mr penpal know how unhappy you are with your marriage, husband and life?

Was your marriage ever good? Or was it settling?

What special gifts does Mr penpal have that creates this connection? Is he flattering? Or intellectual? Or easy to confide in?

You probably won't be able to answer these questions for "security reasons" or perhaps until later.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Wiseman2

[Soul-shards]

10 hours ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

No, Ma'am. You absolutely have not. This statement alone shows you are disconnected from the reality of your situation.

 

Please note the word physically. From the moment I started dating him, I have NEVER had any kind of sexual ANYTHING with anyone other than my H. 20+ year, including this moment.

 

[Soul-shards]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

1. Does your husband know how unfulfilled and unhappy you are?

2. Does Mr penpal know how unhappy you are with your marriage, husband and life?

3. Was your marriage ever good? Or was it settling?

4. What special gifts does Mr penpal have that creates this connection? Is he flattering? Or intellectual? Or easy to confide in?

5. You probably won't be able to answer these questions for "security reasons" or perhaps until later.

1. He suspects some, but not the extent. We had many talks and confrontations over the years and  we discussed the problem ad nauseam. He tried to address it and made a few positive changes over the past few years (it used to be worse, he was stagnating badly in terms of personal growth) - but it's still pretty superficial, not really in his power to satisfy that part of me.

2. No, but at this point he suspects some of that. 

3. It was always as it is now. It was 80% good and 20% settling. The 20% part that is causing this situation now is exactly the part I settled for 20 years ago.

4. The subjective part: Mr. Penpal is insanely compatible with me, intellectually and spiritually. That doesn't mean "perfect" but "perfect for me." That goes well beyond sharing values, beliefs, interests, philosophical and political views, ways of living life. Many people do, after all. It's a lot more than that, to the point whee it feels eerie, at least for me. We have the same type of soul and ways of relating to the world. We had parallel experiences and almost identical thoughts in our 20's; I often discover very fine, nuanced observations of mine that overlap with his. I can't describe. It's a form of powerful bonding that has nothing to do with "I am bored in my marriage, I want to try someone new."

For the sake of illustration - one more confession. At some point, it got so unsettling and scary for me, that I needed to verify, in objective terms, whether this is just some boredom/midlife crisis I am going through, even though I knew deep down it's not. So a few months ago I did the unthinkable and joined a dating site, just to see how my mind would react to...'opportunities.' (Had you tell me I would do this a few years ago, I would have said you lost your mind). All men I saw there awoke 0 interest in me  despite quite a few of them being what the world calls objectively "excellent catches." I was briefly in touch with the president of a large health system in another state (MD, surgeon), an attractive man with great intellect and excellent character. If someone like that can't be tempting as a starter, I don't know who else could. He was very nice and very interested. We exchanged a few pleasant and respectful emails, and soon I had to log out, never to return to that site again.

I knew it wasn't a 'midlife crisis' or just some erratic wish to go look for someone else. Guess what? I gave it a try to see what such a 'move' would do to my brain - and it did a spectacular NOTHING. It's THIS man. Either him or my marriage. It's like I'd always known him and he'd always been part of me and someone ripped him from my soul and released him out there. We almost looked like male and female twins in our 20's (we're the same age). I never thought someone like this could exist. It's mind boggling.  

Easy to confide in? This is an understatement. He gets EVERYTHING I say or observe to a T. He articulates things I knew I had in me but was not quite as astute with language as he is to formulate clearly. Of course, for a long time we have avoided direct personal confessions so that we won't cross the EA line. More recently, this is changing, and of course, it's very unsettling.  

Is he flattering? Not in the way most people understand "flattery."  Yes, he has said certain flattering things to me, in the context of our general talks, but all extremely respectful , never anything remotely tawdry. Then again, he could not do 'tawdry' to save his life, he doesn't have it in him. He can be direct and honest, but not tawdry. 

The objective part: He is extremely cerebral, perceptive, driven, self-composed. The leader/thinker type.  An absolute outlier. Many others acknowledge this unusual trait in him (he is not saying that, he is modest, with perfect ego control; it is me who saw it at play). He is somewhere in the 1% of the population, if not 0.1%, in terms of wiring.

This would mean nothing, of course, without the subjective part - the sense of compatibility I feel with him. After all, many other people are awesome, he's not the only one with great abilities.  I sincerely could not care less about his social parameters (money, status, position, influence, etc) . As far as I know, he doesn't have a lot of that. He is not a celebrity or some official 'top dog' (though he is one in natural terms). He does OK economically, as far as I can gather, but I would never ask about such things. Not because it's 'impolite,' but because I sincerely could not care less. I wish I could express how little I care about such things when it comes to this man. I could live under a bridge with him and those would probably the best days of my life.   

 

[Soul-shards]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:10 AM, spiritedaway2003 said:

 

Your soul is restless not because of what you don't know.  It's because it knows. 

A couple of thoughts:

- I know you're telling your truth because you've been an open book here (thank you).  You are stuck because all the options before you are sub-optimal. You could leave your marriage, but what exactly are you leaving for?  To where?  For whom?  You've already done this analysis.  Why inflict pain on your family when your soulmate isn't available and it's not probable anything would ever happen?  But now that you've been awaken to that connection, you also can't undo that knowledge. ("Knowledge is a blessing and a curse")

- I know you don't want to write due to privacy and that's alright, but the biggest red flag I see for you is that he's "just" a penpal.  I'm not discrediting the conviction of your feelings, but it'd be fair to point out that it'd be a lousy gamble to stake your life's choices if it's someone you haven't met in IRL. If there is more to it, then that's fine...

- You had rejected the notion of leaving your marriage but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion.  Aside from that option, you can still make the choice to end contact with your soulmate (you don't need his permission), accept that decision, detach emotionally, and grieve this loss.  It will hurt a lot but you will move on. You might never forget this connection, but the pain of cutting it off will slowly fade.  If you choose this path, make this decision cleanly and decisively. If you continue to be in touch with your soulmate, you are still, in effect, making a decision.  Your feelings would likely continue to grow, distance can be bridged, and something's will give sooner or later. My guess is that the advice to end things with your soulmate would fall on deaf ears, not because you think it's it's a bad idea, but because you are already in deep. It might also be worth it at some point to revisit your regrets in your 20s.  Perhaps you can see the irony that the same construct that held you back in your 20s is still the same one that is holding you back now, just in a different form.  I think it's likely that those feelings of regret will affect your decision-making here, so you might want to keep those regrets in check.

- As far as the Myer-Briggs theories, I'm fairly confident that you are in the INF archetype.  To truly connect with someone in the way you have described is rare (and life changing).  I have only come across that kind of connection only once in my life, to this day.  Under "normal" circumstances, these are the stuff that love stories of made of.  In these circumstances, they often become heartbreaks.  It's a very fine line. 

 

Spirited,

I guess you and Mark are closest to getting this case. Is it bad, 'toxic', unfortunate, out of line with social rules, this, that? Yes. But you're getting what is going on beyond labels and anything that upsets the social order.  I absolutely agree with what you said: Intellectually, I fully understand the correct path would be to end this R. That doesn't mean I can do it - not as long as he continues to be interested in our exchanges. We don't text, phone, Skype, chit-chat, chatter, etc. It's all substantive, in-depth conversation, always.

I struggle with the part you emphasized: the regret about my marital decision in my 20's, which obviously affected my H too. He might have been happier a bachelor or with someone else similar to him - even though he would have most probably gotten stuck in terms of personal growth well below where he is now due to my pressures.

Part of me wants to beat up my 20+ yo self (which was actually closer to 30). The other part of me begs to let it off the hook because that choice did not happen in a vacuum. In fact, the pressures and constraints I faced were much higher than what the average 20+ yo faces in their dating years. I can't offer more here, privacy would be an issue.  It's just that right now, it's hard to shake off that sense of "I should have waited for what my soul really needed."  Then again, aren't 'soul matters' a luxury, after the other Maslow needs are met? (Mark, good point). 

I also resent the Socially Sensible school of thought, which I read it here again but like you said, in a different form. Most of it is simply not true. It's made so that people can get on with the program and function. It's not for their souls. This played a serious part in my decision to go ahead and settle down. I believed it all.

That you want to marry 'nice and reliable.' Someone who makes you feel comfortable and safe. That 'romantic butterflies' are just silly. That nobody's "perfect" and that M-s take "hard work." Etc. It is routinely and aggressively applied on the young, and later on the not-so-young too, after the first round of damage from that School of Thought happens.

Reminds me of the saying: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Someone wrote in my other thread - on Regret, in the Coping forum - that "why can other people be content they found 'someone to love' and I can't?" (Implication: It's not like I am special or something). No, I am not. But now, I am awake.

Should we marry 'someone we found TO love', or someone WE LOVE?? Not" love for marriage", or any other functional goals. But someone we love deeply, independent of all those social prescriptions and programs! And if we don't find that complete LOVE...should we even marry at all?   

It's the old dilemma I guess: Wait for Sparkles (The One) and risk a lifetime of singlehood, or even a much worse case of settling, when your pool is incredibly tight?

Or make a sensible choice in due time and possibly deal with regrets later if The Spark appears, except too late? 

Is there room for A-s under such circumstances?

  

[LivingWaterPlease]

4 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Please note the word physically. From the moment I started dating him, I have NEVER had any kind of sexual ANYTHING with anyone other than my H. 20+ year, including this moment.

 

I did note the word physically.

The most powerful sexual organ in the body is said to be the brain. From what you've posted it seems your brain is besotted with this other man.

Do an internet search on the most powerful sexual organ in the body and see what you come up with.

You are physically involved with this man whether you realize it or want to admit it or not.

 

[spiritedaway2003]

1 hour ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

I did note the word physically.

The most powerful sexual organ in the body is said to be the brain. From what you've posted it seems your brain is besotted with this other man.

Do an internet search on the most powerful sexual organ in the body and see what you come up with.

You are physically involved with this man whether you realize it or want to admit it or not.

Respectfully,  it's best not to muddy the waters. If the argument is that the OP is an emotional affair, that's absolutely fair.  But she is not engaged in a "physical" affair ...even if the brain is the biggest sexual organ.  The definition of a physical affair is defined as involving "physical contact".   She had not, and therefore, to label her as having a physical affair, is twisting words and the standard definition and that does not hold water.

[Soul-shards]

4 hours ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

I did note the word physically.

The most powerful sexual organ in the body is said to be the brain. From what you've posted it seems your brain is besotted with this other man.

Do an internet search on the most powerful sexual organ in the body and see what you come up with.

You are physically involved with this man whether you realize it or want to admit it or not.

 

 

So very true about the most powerful sexual organ being the brain.! Maybe this is why sapio-sexuals fall so hard :). 

That STILL doesn't make it a physical affair. Physical means bodies touching IRL or body being sexually stimulated while the ap-s connect online. 

Never happened, not even remotely sexual talk. As of this moment I have a record of perfect sexual fidelity for my H (IRL or online).

[hajk]

@Soul-shards you might find the following youtube talk by psychotherapist Esther Perel insightful where she discussed about affairs and infidelity.

"This is how you stop your partner from cheating | Esther Perel | SVT/NRK/Skavlan"

Edited February 28, 2021 by hajk

[Soul-shards]

Thank you, hajk. I am familiar with Perel's work but have not watched this particular video. I will. 

[hajk]

@Soul-shards  some excerpts from Esther Perel's talk above.

Clear markers for understanding affairs
1. secrecy is the central element
2. emotional involvement
3. sexual aura - erotic energy of aliveness that comes with the fantasy

It's about desire, it's not about sex, the desire is about feeling important, feeling seen, feeling desired, having someone's attention back on you, feeling that you matter.

It isn't just because you want to leave the person you are with, it is because you want to leave the person you have yourself become.  And it isn't just that you want to meet somebody else but you want to meet another self. There is no greater Other than a different version of yourself.

[Soul-shards]

45 minutes ago, hajk said:

@Soul-shards  some excerpts from Esther Perel's talk above.

Clear markers for understanding affairs
1. secrecy is the central element
2. emotional involvement
3. sexual aura - erotic energy of aliveness that comes with the fantasy

It's about desire, it's not about sex, the desire is about feeling important, feeling seen, feeling desired, having someone's attention back on you, feeling that you matter.

It isn't just because you want to leave the person you are with, it is because you want to leave the person you have yourself become.  And it isn't just that you want to meet somebody else but you want to meet another self. There is no greater Other than a different version of yourself.

I don't know about others, but for me it's about feeling home, where I should have always been. About getting what my REAL self needs.

I can be myself with my H but he can't quite offer the connection I need.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

I can be myself with my H but he can't quite offer the connection I need.

Is it a marriage of convenience?

You've experimented with dating apps before Mr penpal, so it seems like you were seeking out some sort of connection, no?

So far this doesn't seem like much of a scandalous affair, just someone - anyone who will listen to you and mirror you.

While your husband probably wouldn't be thrilled to hear about this, it seems like he doesn't care.

It doesn't matter what type of organ the brain is. What matters is you are chatting with this guy pouring your heart out and he is reflecting and mirroring what you say and that sort of creates even more estrangement in your marriage.

 

[spiritedaway2003]

21 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Someone wrote in my other thread - on Regret, in the Coping forum - that "why can other people be content they found 'someone to love' and I can't?" (Implication: It's not like I am special or something). No, I am not. But now, I am awake.

Should we marry 'someone we found TO love', or someone WE LOVE?? Not" love for marriage", or any other functional goals. But someone we love deeply, independent of all those social prescriptions and programs! And if we don't find that complete LOVE...should we even marry at all?   

It's the old dilemma I guess: Wait for Sparkles (The One) and risk a lifetime of singlehood, or even a much worse case of settling, when your pool is incredibly tight?

Or make a sensible choice in due time and possibly deal with regrets later if The Spark appears, except too late? 

Is there room for A-s under such circumstances? 

I don't need to get "this case" because I lived it (and perhaps still living it...) Frankly, the way you perceive the world and spirituality is similar to mine, as it's exhausting trying to correct many of the prevailing assumptions.  I typed up a longer response but it didn't save, so I'll just get straight to the questions.

Should we marry 'someone we found TO love', or someone WE LOVE??   Not" love for marriage", or any other functional goals. But someone we love deeply, independent of all those social prescriptions and programs! And if we don't find that complete LOVE...should we even marry at all?   Depends.  Different strokes for different folks - that's because love means different things to different people.  The classic is the "falling in love" (or NRE, or whatever you want to call it) which is the basis of a romantic relationship.  As we all know that doesn't lasts (and that can go on for years if separated by distance) and fortunately, it evolves into a calmer, more steady type of love.  Without it, you can still have love and care for someone, but it's not quite...the same.  Some people can live with it and for others, they can't live without. 

For my part, I would marry someone I love, not TO love.  The reason is simple: The former is confirmed whereas the latter is just a "potential" that may or may not get realized.  I think "to love" is not a fair to the other person (regardless of societal norms) when it comes to the "marrying" decision. That's what the "dating phase" is for.  I want to marry for this: "I love this person and I'm in love with this person and I want to commit to spending my life with that person" instead of, "I like him. I even love him.  He fits what I am looking for on paper and in person even though something's missing.  I've got a good thing going and maybe I won't ever find my unicorn, or maybe there isn't a unicorn out there.  But I'm going to marry him because "who knows, maybe I'll grow to love him?" 

The difference (loving vs settling) is huge. Just like I don't want to be a square peg in an round hole, I want to marry someone I love in the same way that I deserved to be loved. I wouldn't want them to change who they are fundamentally.  Two people can grow together in a relationship, but the basic fundamental compatibility either exists or ...it doesn't.   I'd honestly feel worse otherwise, because I'd feel like like I'm robbing the other person of a chance to find the kind of match/connection/love.  And "to love" sometimes means that you are more likely to want to change the other person to reflect what you need and that's sometimes not possible (and unfair)

It's the old dilemma I guess: Wait for Sparkles (The One) and risk a lifetime of singlehood, or even a much worse case of settling, when your pool is incredibly tight?

It's a dilemma but as I said before, you always have the choices here.  Whether you choose to see them or choose to eliminate them because they are undesirable choices for you doesn't mean that the choices don't exist. You can't rule them out and then feel like you don't have a choice to make.  FWIW, I chose to "risk a lifetime of single-hood", although it is neither as dramatic or self-sacrificing.  It just means I give up the conventional  ideals of having a family, kids, and white picket fence (all of which I like) and that's OK.  I still think that a life shared with someone you loved is far richer than being alone, but I've also accepted that maybe coupledom isn't in the cards for me.  So I exerted my time and energy on living my best life -- putting energies in my other passions and interests and friends/family.  Those doesn't replace the desire to truly connect with someone romantically, but I just figure if it happens it happens. If not, I have a life well lived.  No regrets either way.  And just when I thought I got everything figured out, he showed up in all the ways he's not supposed to and turned my world upside down. I guess that's how life works.  The point is for this one ...and I'll let you in on a little secret -- you can't really miss what you don't have.  

Or make a sensible choice in due time and possibly deal with regrets later if The Spark appears, except too late? 

You can always make a different decision.  You always have choices.  They are choices even if they are undesirable ones. I expect that in part, your fear of regrets is the driver that will overpower all the decisions you know you "should" be making.  The other part is not being able to letting go of a connection that comes around so rarely.  It's also possible that you might regret blowing up your family over this...

Is there room for A-s under such circumstances? 

I know the answer isn't what you want to hear, but the answer is still a a "no".  You're not doing the work (and I don't mean the work in your marriage).  And so the affair would still only be a bandaid.

Edited February 28, 2021 by spiritedaway2003

[Starswillshine]

OP, can you clarify if you went onto this dating site before meeting Mr Penal or after/during? 

[Soul-shards]

6 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

OP, can you clarify if you went onto this dating site before meeting Mr Penal or after/during? 

Of course I can clarify it: I went on this dating site looooong after I met the pen pal, and after my emotional attachment to him became very strong.

I went exactly  BECAUSE OF him - because I felt like I was losing my mind. It was at the end of last year, and I kept hearing from posters elsewhere that I am just in a midlife crisis, looking for novelty - blah, blah - the conventional views.

If that was so, I was willing to put it to the test. Online exposure to other available and eligible men, should have redirected my attention. Never happened. Not even close. 

My interest is with THIS MM and this MM only. It was only ONE dating site I tried briefly, a relatively select service, where the chance of seeing men of high caliber were higher than your average dating app. If a charismatic and quite attractive surgeon and president of a health system, with great conversational abilities, couldn't do it - then it remains frighteningly unclear how exactly I could fix my  situation by divorcing and looking for someone else. You mean like the OTHER grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean? 

I am no longer on that dating site (I was there for about 2-3 months) and will not be on another such site again. Today I am convinced that if this "soulmate/twin flame" theory is a thing,  it happened to me. At the wrongest time, with the lowest odds of completion in a socially acceptable way.

This is why I would not see an A as a band aid. It would be the only kind of closure I could get. There's no one else out there for me, not under my circumstances - where my husband and children would be left adrift. They should not pay for my youth mistake. I'd rather have a quiet A with this MM - the only way I would probably find some peace. The problem is he is nowhere close to that decision even though now I know there are certain things going on his end too.  

It's just a weird situation - very much a rock-and-a-hard spot, psychologically speaking. Some days are easier than others. 

[Soul-shards]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You've experimented with dating apps before Mr penpal, so it seems like you were seeking out some sort of connection, no?

So far this doesn't seem like much of a scandalous affair, just someone - anyone who will listen to you and mirror you.

While your husband probably wouldn't be thrilled to hear about this, it seems like he doesn't care.

It doesn't matter what type of organ the brain is. What matters is you are chatting with this guy pouring your heart out and he is reflecting and mirroring what you say and that sort of creates even more estrangement in your marriage.

 

No, I have NOT experimented with dating aps before Mr. Penpal. Never. See above.

My H would certainly care if he knew about these struggles. He does know I have a problem with our M on a certain dimension, but he can't do much about it. This is not an easy fix.

[Starswillshine]

38 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

Of course I can clarify it: I went on this dating site looooong after I met the pen pal, and after my emotional attachment to him became very strong.

I went exactly  BECAUSE OF him - because I felt like I was losing my mind. It was at the end of last year, and I kept hearing from posters elsewhere that I am just in a midlife crisis, looking for novelty - blah, blah - the conventional views.

If that was so, I was willing to put it to the test. Online exposure to other available and eligible men, should have redirected my attention. Never happened. Not even close. 

My interest is with THIS MM and this MM only. It was only ONE dating site I tried briefly, a relatively select service, where the chance of seeing men of high caliber were higher than your average dating app. If a charismatic and quite attractive surgeon and president of a health system, with great conversational abilities, couldn't do it - then it remains frighteningly unclear how exactly I could fix my  situation by divorcing and looking for someone else. You mean like the OTHER grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean? 

I am no longer on that dating site (I was there for about 2-3 months) and will not be on another such site again. Today I am convinced that if this "soulmate/twin flame" theory is a thing,  it happened to me. At the wrongest time, with the lowest odds of completion in a socially acceptable way.

This is why I would not see an A as a band aid. It would be the only kind of closure I could get. There's no one else out there for me, not under my circumstances - where my husband and children would be left adrift. They should not pay for my youth mistake. I'd rather have a quiet A with this MM - the only way I would probably find some peace. The problem is he is nowhere close to that decision even though now I know there are certain things going on his end too.  

It's just a weird situation - very much a rock-and-a-hard spot, psychologically speaking. Some days are easier than others. 

Thank you for clarifying. That it was I thought was the situation, but I want to be sure.

Gently, you seem a little bit naive here. How much experience do you have dating? 

Of course you didn't connect with anyone there. You are infatuated with your penpal guy. This is common with women; we tend to form an attachment to one person only. Which is why women are more likely to leave their spouse for their AP. Men can be the opposite. They can feel for multiple people. This guy is married. While we don't have all the information on how you met, if you ever met in person, etc... many of the married men are alike in so many ways. The man you have described here, is much like my ex-husband. The problem is, he is a chalemon. He is extremely intelligent and figures out really quickly what to say and how to say it. The "reaching the furthest corners of my mind" was something one of his OW said. What he talked to her about was completely fake and NOT at all him (and this come from my conversations with her). And while it seems that you are happy to keep it at the level it is right now and not move it into the physical phere... and not blow up your family, what you are doing is indeed damaging your family. Because as stated before, women don't typically stay interested in multiple men. Your husband could be hanging the moon right now, and you would not notice. You would claim you are incompatible. There is really NOTHING he can do right now to get you to love him. We all know stale marriages. They happen, and it is far too easy to get lured into something with deep conversations. Especially after spending multiple decades with the same person... you know what they think before they think it. What you have with this guy is a fantasy... and whether you pursue anything further with him or not, it is causing decay within your home right now. It is obvious you have very little respect for your husband. You speak as you are so superior to him. 

You say you don't want to hurt your children and a divorce would do that. However, you are then engaging in activity that will indeed hurt your children even more so than a divorce if they ever find out. If you have daughters, they may completely turn their back on you. My daughter does not talk to her dad at all. She cannot forgive him even though I have encouraged her to move past what he did to me. She sees it as something he did to her, to all of us. I am no longer angry and I have a decent relationship with my ex, but she will not engage with him. period. 

Though you do not want this advice, or any advice really, but I would refocus that energy that is something more attainable for happiness than some man that lives states apart that is also married before you blow this life up. There are many ways to become oneself and feel alive again that isn't risking blowing up your family. 

[Soul-shards]

Spirited,

Thank you for your meaningful thoughts. Today, I agree with all of them.

Twenty years ago, I was still in the Truman's Show, with me being Truman with inklings, but not much else. It is what it is, and now it's too late.

Now I KNOW individuals - as organisms with sentience, soul, and needs - should only marry someone they are IN LOVE with and profoundly so; not just magnetic physical attraction, but the BFF feeling must prevail, as I noted before. The more complex a person is, the more they will need marriage to be this way and not just sensible and functional - which is wonderful for society, but not enough for the individual. Unfortunately, waiting for sparks also spells species doom because people reproduce much less when they act so picky. Again, fantastic for the individual, terrible for society. 

Of course the IN LOVE magic feeling go away, but they must be there at first, as a foundation. Society has been using this false logic - if the romantic butterflies go away anyway, and the mortgage and 'take out the garbage' consideration take over, this can mean the butterflies are not necessary in the early stage. Instead, choose a model citizen.

This is a dangerous doctrine and many young people fall victim to it. I was one of those.

Then again, many people confuse what they have (something) with the magic in 'love feelings;' or they try to convince themselves they really have it going on. The trouble is these authentic 'in love' feelings are a luxury for most because most people aren't lucky enough to meet their excellent partner in due time. The more complex the human, the lower the odds in our chaotic, overgrown modern societies - despite freedom to choose.  

Look at all the "meh" marriages out there; all the conflict, all the affairs, all the divorce - you would think these shouldn't exist in a world where the young are 'free' to pick to their heart's content. But do they? All of these trouble-ridden marriages were clearly not based on spectacular matches from the start who just went stale over time. Based on my observations, I am convinced many start out with less-than-great matches to begin with, be they made by their own hand, instead of the hands of parents, as in non-western societies. It's not just about an unfortunate evolution of marriage, it's often about defects in origins.  

I used to think people were just not doing well enough with their commitment and 'vows.' What drivel.  There's a limit to that when the match was not good enough to begin with. Humans have different needs from marriage in the 21st century. The most conservative and resilient of us will go on for many, many years in the name of commitment ans vows, but the unsatisfied soul will eventually claim its natural rights. I learned it the hard way.

As for the A not being an option - well, sometimes a band-aid is still better than having all your blood pour out. But he's not there.

 

 

[Soul-shards]

6 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Thank you for clarifying. That it was I thought was the situation, but I want to be sure.

Gently, you seem a little bit naive here. How much experience do you have dating? Of course you didn't connect with anyone there. You are infatuated with your penpal guy.

How long does "infatuation" last? How do people know it's always "just infatuation" only because it is not for the purposes of marriage or love within marriage? And if it's actual love?  It's been going on for a few years and the sentiment is not based on superficial aspects. I know this MM not just from what he writes to me, but also from his work. He's magnificent. Wouldn't I continue to be "infatuated" if I divorced my H and went on the dating market? How would that fix it?

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This is common with women; we tend to form an attachment to one person only. Which is why women are more likely to leave their spouse for their AP. Men can be the opposite. They can feel for multiple people. This guy is married.

But if there IS no option to leave spouse for AP because AP is not available for marriage, then they don't. Women too can feel for multiple people. I don't feel any less for my H compared to what I felt before MM appeared.

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The problem is, he is a chalemon. He is extremely intelligent and figures out really quickly what to say and how to say it. The "reaching the furthest corners of my mind" was something one of his OW said. What he talked to her about was completely fake and NOT at all him (and this come from my conversations with her). 

I believe you about your H. Having access to all of his work, I know this is not the case with him. What he says is HIM. 100%. 

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And while it seems that you are happy to keep it at the level it is right now and not move it into the physical phere... and not blow up your family, what you are doing is indeed damaging your family. Because as stated before, women don't typically stay interested in multiple men.

I have no choice. As stated above, I am as interested in my H as I'd always been. I know who my H is, I know who this MM is.

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Your husband could be hanging the moon right now, and you would not notice.

He is not hanging the moon where I've always needed him to hang it. I had enormous patience over the years but I eventually had to accept he can't hang the moon that way. The contrast with the MM on that particular dimension is brutal. 

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We all know stale marriages. They happen, and it is far too easy to get lured into something with deep conversations. Especially after spending multiple decades with the same person... you know what they think before they think it.

The alternative being continuing to 'wither on the vine', as elaine put it?

 

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What you have with this guy is a fantasy... and whether you pursue anything further with him or not, it is causing decay within your home right now.

The seeds of decay for my M had always been there - in our fundamental incompatibility. Is it possible the actual fantasy was my marriage and the real thing would have been a R with someone like this MM, which the unfavorable context now makes IT a fantasy?

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It is obvious you have very little respect for your husband. You speak as you are so superior to him. 

My H is superior to me in many ways but unfortunately, I am more complex than him on this dimensions that matters a lot to me. In this regard, I need someone who is superior to me - and I resent that this isn't so. 
 

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You say you don't want to hurt your children and a divorce would do that. However, you are then engaging in activity that will indeed hurt your children even more so than a divorce if they ever find out.

A divorce would instantly blow up their life. My 'activities' are discreet.

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If you have daughters, they may completely turn their back on you. My daughter does not talk to her dad at all. She cannot forgive him even though I have encouraged her to move past what he did to me. She sees it as something he did to her, to all of us. I am no longer angry and I have a decent relationship with my ex, but she will not engage with him. period. 

Though you do not want this advice, or any advice really, but I would refocus that energy that is something more attainable for happiness than some man that lives states apart that is also married before you blow this life up. There are many ways to become oneself and feel alive again that isn't risking blowing up your family. 

 

I wish I knew what those are.

[sandylee1]

On 2/24/2021 at 5:31 AM, Soul-shards said:

And yet, DKT3 - all you heard from me is true. I am not telling because this would cause more harm than good to EVERYONE, my husband and children primarily.

Whether he leaves or stays, he will be alone and depressed for the rest of his life. You are simply choosing to reject the facts I give you and call them "double talk" to suit your moralistic angle.  

As Mark very well pointed out, "anything that provides reasonable support for any contrary view is dismissed as "just words" / double talk. You don't know my husband, I do; so your interpretation of my motivations is based on nothing solid, only projection.  

Quite often people say if this happened I would do that...when faced with it, they react differently. 

The number of people who say if he cheats we're done...yet when it happens and in some cases multiple times, they stay put.  

I do find a spouse who openly says (directly or indirectly) that they would be alone and/or depressed if you left...some go as far as threatening suicide rather manipulative. 

It's not difficult to justify anything we do that's wrong. Robin Hood is a classic example of this. 

[HappyAgain2014]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:03 AM, Soul-shards said:

I have a question for you, mark, since I honestly respect your opinion based on what I saw you write.

Do you see this as cheating?

Once again:

Zero sexual engagement, in person or online.

Zero emotional sharing until a little bit, more recently, and even that - very veiled.

No discussions of spouses or home matters.  

Connection is based on intellectual and spiritual compatibility even though we are also attracted to each other, physically. We expressed this in very, very roundabout ways.

We always respect boundaries in the correspodence.

 

Sincerely.

If you won’t tell your husband about this, it’s cheating. 

[HappyAgain2014]

On 2/25/2021 at 2:33 PM, Soul-shards said:

I am not financially dependent on my H - but we both live much better with our finances together. Children are not grown, they are still children. Even when they reach adulthood, they would still be disoriented and devastated to see us split.

As I said, if I divorce:

1. H: devastated.

2. Kids: devastated.

3. Extended family: devastated, deeply disappointed.

4. Economic situation: much worse for all of us.

5. Me: on my own, NOWHERE CLOSE to an official R with this MM, nowhere close to interested in anyone else. 

  I think that settles it.

You’re quite a saint with this list of sacrifices you make with your own happiness. Reality is you’d make this affair physical in a second if your soul mate hopped a couple of states and called you from a local hotel. Your list wouldn’t matter then because he’s your soul mate so you don’t really have a choice.

These chats with you are an amusement to him and stroke his ego. Wait until his wife finds out. If you’re lucky, he disappears. If you’re unlucky, she calls your husband. Share your list with your husband and see if he agrees with your sacrifices. 

[sandylee1]

1 hour ago, HappyAgain2014 said:

You’re quite a saint with this list of sacrifices you make with your own happiness. Reality is you’d make this affair physical in a second if your soul mate hopped a couple of states and called you from a local hotel. Your list wouldn’t matter then because he’s your soul mate so you don’t really have a choice.

These chats with you are an amusement to him and stroke his ego. Wait until his wife finds out. If you’re lucky, he disappears. If you’re unlucky, she calls your husband. Share your list with your husband and see if he agrees with your sacrifices. 

I don't think it's so much sacrifices, as opposed to limited options and the marriage not being that bad. My understanding of what's been said is it doesn't make sense to leave, when there's no better option that what she's currently got.

Even if the MM proposed a physical affair, that wouldn't lead to the end of the marriage for the OP.

The aim of an affair is usually not to get caught, especially for 2 married people. 

[Soul-shards]

2 hours ago, HappyAgain2014 said:

Your list wouldn’t matter then because he’s your soul mate so you don’t really have a choice.

These chats with you are an amusement to him and stroke his ego. Wait until his wife finds out. If you’re lucky, he disappears. If you’re unlucky, she calls your husband. Share your list with your husband and see if he agrees with your sacrifices. 

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You’re quite a saint with this list of sacrifices you make with your own happiness. Reality is you’d make this affair physical in a second if your soul mate hopped a couple of states and called you from a local hotel.

Yes, I would. 

But the list of sacrifices would still apply to the M - so I wouldn't want to D. It would destroy all lives involved if we divorced.

In fact, I told my H about how I feel about our M. He already knew, but it came up again in much deeper shades; no mention of feelings for another, only that our intellectual/spiritual incompatibility is slowly killing me.  He said he I am all he wants but he is unhappy that he is not enough for me - but he wants me to stay anyway because none of us will get anything better than what we already have. He said I should feel free to get out there and see how many men with the intellectual depth and interests I seek exist - and of those, how may are are available at this life stage.

He's right. He knows my odds.

He simply wants us to continue as is. He grew up in a family where conflict was off-limits and parents lived for decades in a pretense marriage, separate bedrooms, talked about nothing if they ever exchanges ay words at all, everything was kept superficial, interaction formal - just a lot of surface go-along-to-get-along-ness. He is not doing that in our marriage, we have a lot more than that freak-show in his family - but he is still not capable of the level of connection I need.

My point is for him, continuing with less than "perfect" is doable. For me - not so much. Not without some interventions.

Yet he is correct about my odds. After all, look at this MM. Now I know what I need exists, but guess what? He's not available. 

My H is fine if I stay, even knowing he is not all I need. He would be more devastated if I left. He said that. He also made it clear how our separate finances could no longer serve our children at the level they do now.

Conclusion?

Yes. If the MM called from a hotel - I'd go.

I will gladly answer any other question that would make the original point of this thread: something's gotta give.

Not all A-s are the same.

If only I could have this A for real at this point - but it is extremely non-doable.