After a while, it gets tiresome.

[Starswillshine]

Then why don't you tell your husband so he can be allowed to go find this as well? And have an open marriage. At least he has agency in his own life and is making future decisions based on the full truth. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Soul-shards said:

Yes, marrying your BFF is the answer

Well, I dated for some twenty odd years and had different relationships along the way. I didn’t settle, even though it cost me the ability to have children because by the time I met my BFF, it was pretty much too late. We have just settled into our beautiful new home that we built together and life is good. I can’t tell you how many men I met along the way and he was the best of the bunch... when I met him, I felt like I was coming home. We had a connection that I had not shared with any other man. He is my BFF but - we don’t have a soulmate connection. I’ve matured enough to to know that doesn’t exist. And tonight, he’s really (making me angry) as he we are having serious discussions about the division of labour and balancing the books now that we are settled into the new home. It doesn’t mean that I’m going to go looking for a long distance pen pal to stroke my ego or as you may say, soothe my soul. 

I don’t buy what you are selling. Not one word. This is just a very long and wordy spin on what is a very typical pattern on this site. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by BaileyB

[Soul-shards]

I wanted to say Thank You to moderators who moved my posts to a new thread. It was not my original intention to hijack but unfortunately, it worked out like this. Thanks again! 

[mark clemson]

8 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

The reactions are knee-jerk, visceral, almost vindictive. The "Confess to S or bust" philosophy mounts to a boiling point where the ap is ordered around or insulted, explanations  about context are actively ignored, dismissed or simply denied. It's as if there is resentment for the audacity to be alive and live meaningfully, which you mentioned above. This is interesting.

Indeed. That particular prophecy starting coming true rather quickly didn't it.

No, I'm not in an affair.

I try to keep a reasonably open mind about various things, rather than simply dismissing anything that doesn't align to my personal moral principles out of hand.

It's not that people who advise/promote telling are "100% wrong" or anything. There are those whom it may help, or who feel that it's something they DO want to do. But it seems to me that some have trouble seeing past their own biases. For instance, one could buy an alarm system to protect their entire family; but one could not tell their BS ONLY to protect oneself, NOT the whole family. So logic gets tossed out the window, along with the potential for severe negative consequences, and anything that provides reasonable support for any contrary view is "just words".

So, yes, IMO there's a certain level of fanaticism and/or "kool-aid swallowing" on the part of some.

Edited February 24, 2021 by mark clemson

[Soul-shards]

3 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

Then why don't you tell your husband so he can be allowed to go find this as well? And have an open marriage. At least he has agency in his own life and is making future decisions based on the full truth. 

He would be very hurt and he would end up either alone by himself, or alone and devastated with me - in an open relationship. Regardless, I could not do an open relationship when he has no one because he refuses to look. I prefer to keep this vanilla and just correspond at a depth I could not get in the marriage.   

BaileyB,

Then I guess you didn't marry your soulmate, only your BFF. From a quality of life standpoint, it's still a great improvement over how the average young couple marry - for 'wrong' reasons (social, economic, reproductive). These are good for nature and social order, but not for one's soul.

As is expected in our disordered society, your selectivity cost you your ability to have children. It's like being in a huge department store with 1 millions apparel of all qualities, styles, shapes and sizes, all mixed up, and having to comb through all of them until you find your perfect fit item. By the time you find one that fits really well, it's 9:00 pm and the store is closing.

The trick is to find the BFF in one's 20's. An art and science could be made of that.

As for soulmate, if you had found him, you would have known. Sure soulmates exist! Just because YOU didn't find him doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This would be the epitome of solipsism: if it didn't happen to me, it can't possibly exist.

Also,  if you think it is not possible to have a mundane argument with a soulmate, you would be wrong.

You don't have to buy anything because I am not selling you anything. I am simply making statements. You can agree, disagree or just stay skeptical. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Soul-shards]

16 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Indeed. That particular prophecy starting coming true rather quickly didn't it.

No, I'm not in an affair.

I try to keep a reasonably open mind about various things, rather than simply dismissing anything that doesn't align to my personal moral principles out of hand.

It's not that people who advise/promote telling are "100% wrong" or anything. There are those whom it may help, or who feel that it's something they DO want to do. But it seems to me that some have trouble seeing past their own biases. For instance, one could buy an alarm system to protect their entire family; but one could not tell their BS ONLY to protect oneself, NOT the whole family. So logic gets tossed out the window, along with the potential for severe negative consequences, and anything that provides reasonable support for any contrary view is "just words".

So, yes, IMO there's a certain level of fanaticism and/or "kool-aid swallowing" on the part of some.

Could not agree more. I can't even see how anyone could improve on this post.

To me, it is fascinating to see how logic crumbles. I think it's the modern ego that ultimately cannot stand the idea of being slighted, hence the absolute need to control with fanatic moralizing. In reality, none of us has any control over whether our spouses may start harboring feelings/thoughts/attention for another, even as they continue to want to be with us because there is a family, a household, and a history in place, and also care and feelings. As crazy as it may sound, it IS possible to have feelings for two people, simultaneously - be it of a different nature.

People fail to account for human fallibility. Oh, well.  

[mark clemson]

20 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

Could not agree more. I can't even see how anyone could improve on this post.

To me, it is fascinating to see how logic crumbles.

Kind of you to say.

Another interesting point is how some of these folks seem to be so fixated on the immorality of cheating that they (apparently) completely disregard the immorality of convincing someone who's not completely comfortable with it to make a life-changing and even dangerous confession that could negatively impact not only them but also their children. I suspect some feel "vindication" even if the OP's life blows up, up to and including harm to their children.

So it's not only logic that crumbles. I guess we all have our blind spots.

Edited February 24, 2021 by mark clemson

[NAB]

Shards, you are manic!  You are going to fall, hard

[Pumpernickel]

If this is only an emotional affair why can’t you tell your partner about it? Why does it have to be a secret? Is the secret the glue that holds your affair together? I don’t get it. Why can’t that person be a friend of the family? Is the secrecy necessary to keep it going somehow? And also – the way you describe your husband it sounds like he would be more than understanding. He seems like a reasonable guy - the reasonable one in the marriage, actually.

[Soul-shards]

1 hour ago, NAB said:

Shards, you are manic!  You are going to fall, hard

I see.

40 minutes ago, Pumpernickel said:

If this is only an emotional affair why can’t you tell your partner about it? Why does it have to be a secret? Is the secret the glue that holds your affair together? I don’t get it. Why can’t that person be a friend of the family? Is the secrecy necessary to keep it going somehow? And also – the way you describe your husband it sounds like he would be more than understanding. He seems like a reasonable guy - the reasonable one in the marriage, actually.

Because as many others have acknowledged, emotional infidelity hurts too. Some argue even more so than physical.

No, the secret is not the glue, but discretion is necessary. Spouses could sense emotions in there, it's not all purely technical. 

If you think you know my husband based on the sparse description here, you would be wrong. He would be severely hurt. I would never willingly choose to cause that hurt if I can help it otherwise.  

[Soul-shards]

Quote

I try to keep a reasonably open mind about various things, rather than simply dismissing anything that doesn't align to my personal moral principles out of hand.

By the way, this is rare. Nice.

[DKT3]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Kind of you to say.

Another interesting point is how some of these folks seem to be so fixated on the immorality of cheating that they (apparently) completely disregard the immorality of convincing someone who's not completely comfortable with it to make a life-changing and even dangerous confession that could negatively impact not only them but also their children. I suspect some feel "vindication" even if the OP's life blows up, up to and including harm to their children.

So it's not only logic that crumbles. I guess we all have our blind spots.

We had a WW that posted here alot 3 or 4 years ago.  She was honest and would say she won't tell because her husband would leave and she didn't want that.  You don't have to agree, but you have to respect it.  

All of the double talk and hiding behind a mountain of bs, twisted logic and fluid narratives is hard to respect 

[Soul-shards]

1 minute ago, DKT3 said:

We had a WW that posted here alot 3 or 4 years ago.  She was honest and would say she won't tell because her husband would leave and she didn't want that.  You don't have to agree, but you have to respect it.  

All of the double talk and hiding behind a mountain of bs, twisted logic and fluid narratives is hard to respect 

And yet, DKT3 - all you heard from me is true. I am not telling because this would cause more harm than good to EVERYONE, my husband and children primarily.

Whether he leaves or stays, he will be alone and depressed for the rest of his life. You are simply choosing to reject the facts I give you and call them "double talk" to suit your moralistic angle.  

As Mark very well pointed out, "anything that provides reasonable support for any contrary view is dismissed as "just words" / double talk. You don't know my husband, I do; so your interpretation of my motivations is based on nothing solid, only projection.  

[DKT3]

31 minutes ago, Soul-shards said:

And yet, DKT3 - all you heard from me is true. I am not telling because this would cause more harm than good to EVERYONE, my husband and children primarily.

Whether he leaves or stays, he will be alone and depressed for the rest of his life. You are simply choosing to reject the facts I give you and call them "double talk" to suit your moralistic angle.  

As Mark very well pointed out, "anything that provides reasonable support for any contrary view is dismissed as "just words" / double talk. You don't know my husband, I do; so your interpretation of my motivations is based on nothing solid, only projection.  

Nah, if you haven't had that conversation with your husband its merely in your head. Your trying to sell that your affair is better for your husband.  That he is happier that you don't tell him. Truth is you don't know that, its simply the vehicle you use to make yourself feel better. 

[Soul-shards]

Of course, DKT3. Whatever you say. 

[DKT3]

2 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Of course, DKT3. Whatever you say. 

What you're failing to understand is you don't know the betrayed version of your husband. 

My wife and I have been together since we were 17 & 16 years old. When she had her affair she says she thought much like you, I would never leave. I would only become colder and withdraw.  But I did leave. She didn't know the betrayed me. She didn't know how I would actually handle it,  she thought she did.

Just as this "soulmate" thing happened to you, maybe there is a woman of your husband’s dreams admiring him from a distance,  maybe its someone that can make him far more happy than you were ever able to.

The reality is you simply don't know, in other posts you talk about not knowing yet you know with so much confidence how your husband’s life will play out....that is the double talk,  twisting things to fit your narrative.  Lastly, if it so important how it would affect your husband and kids why do it in the first place? I will also ask again how do you see this ending?  You've conveniently avoided that question before. 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by DKT3

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Whether he leaves or stays, he will be alone and depressed for the rest of his life.

You don't know that, you are assuming and using that narrative to justify your affair .
It seems to me many depressed, insecure, unhappy people tend to blossom when they  come out of relationships that do not work for them.
The fact he told you he would never have another relationship again is likely BS, maybe to pander to you, maybe to avoid hurting you, maybe because he truly believes it, but I guess he will change his mind pretty promptly the minute he finds himself truly alone.  
It is pretty crass to tell a spouse that "If this doesn't work I will be slotting a new model in ASAP", so people tend to resort to the more romantic version, "I can never replace you, so I will die alone", knowing full well that if an opportunity presented itself, they would grab it with both hands.

You only really know the guy who has committed himself to you, the one highly influenced by you. 
The hurt, betrayed angry version may be a different man all together...
"Men" tend to like loyalty in their wives, show him she is disloyal and all bets are off, you have no idea of what he is capable of then.

[Starswillshine]

The level of contempt for this poor husband is astounding. I feel quite bad for him. 

From my own personal experience. I was extremely in love with my husband. We had a great marriage. We were both really happy. The downside: he traveled a lot so he found women everywhere... because he was a weak man. What I knew about him was a front. Nevertheless, I had been a SAHM for 20 years (with 4 kids). I hadn't finished my degree. I had no work experience. On paper, I would be destroyed. And I WAS devastated. Completely. I'm pretty certain I had told him I would/could never be with anyone again. Because while I was in love with him, that was my mindset. But when I learned of his betrayal, all that changed. I divorced him. I"m finishing my degree. In a great relationship with an amazing man. My kids are doing wonderful. I am chasing my dreams and knocking them down. I have ZERO regrets of what has happened. I'm now glad he cheated. Because I never would have known what I know now. Because I was committed and grateful for the beautiful life we had back them. I chose that. I chose to not allow people into my life and my emotional state. I'm an attractive woman, I had options. Many options, but it is a choice each and every day who will allow close to us. Boundaries. 

Anyway, it makes me so disgusted to hear people talk down about their spouses and act as if they know what is best for them over letting the spouse decide what is best for their own self. I made many decisions (some medical) during the time of my husband's affairs that had I known, I would have made differing decisions. 

It is no wonder you and mark_clemson have found yourselves in agreement. As he seems to have the same contempt for his wife as well. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I believe you are in denial, still in the heady longing phase of grieving, and your views will change with time. 

As for the spiritual aspect: soulmates are many (sourced of one's soul group). Twin flames are only one. There is no guarantee one will end up/merge with their twin flame in a particular lifetime, even after having spent time in romantic union or liaison with the twin flame. Twin flame relationships are teaching relationships above all else. They mirror back to you what needs to be healed within yourself. The longer you fixate on (ie chase) your twin, the longer you avoid the inner work you're meant to do, the longer a span of time occurs until a merge can happen. Both must complete the work, which is rare, and nobody else can do it for them, which is largely why merging is not a guaranteed outcome. 

It is not about Disney fantasies. It is about feeling the love [you have/had for xAP] for yourself. Learn instead to give that level of love to yourself. This is the key. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by HadMeOverABarrel
Grammer

[mark clemson]

10 hours ago, DKT3 said:

We had a WW that posted here alot 3 or 4 years ago.

 

I must confess I'm a bit confused as to why you quoted me, since what you wrote (while a fair point I suppose) was not a rebuttal, or even a response, to the point I was making about the immorality of attempting to convince people to take huge risks that they don't feel comfortable with taking.

[Soul-shards]

To all of the above who keep singing the song,

Pause for a moment and see how you project your own experiences, moralism , biases and slights onto someone else's case, while flat out denying first hand data that person has on the matter. The reality remains you don't know my husband, his personality, his history prior to our marriage, our history, our family and its needs and circumstances. I DO.

This should have been enough for you to allow for a moment of suspending cock-sure certainty from a laptop far away. Note the view of the poster who said if she didn't meet her soulmate, she doesn't believe in those because she's so 'mature.' Note the frantic projections of posters who keep saying I have contempt for my husband.

NO, I don't. I love him and appreciate him for who he is but that doesn't mean our unfortunate incompatibility on a dimension that is vital to me, doesn't exist. That has nothing to do with contempt. It's nobody's fault, we both should have been with different types of people -  but this is not how it was. Nobody can change the reality of the past and the consequences that flew from our marriage, which is now here to stay as it is too late to undo. Everything that would flow from this step would be even more nonsense.

On your end, all you have is a story that starts with "I;" and while I would never deny the veracity and legitimacy of YOUR stories, you would be well served to allow room for the story of others, keeping in mind they have information you don't.   People in the name of whom I initiated this thread DO NOT share your experience. They have another experience. This was for them. 

You keep saying that I come up with reasons to justify my 'affair' without understanding that I would write with this man regardless - with or without your perceived "justifications."  Never mind many would disagree this is an affair.

Starswillshine,

Mark-Clemson writes like a very perceptive and wise man. I will not deny my heart grows a bit when I see a member of this minority floating out there. Such people are rare and I have nothing but sincere admiration for someone whose mind can actually function. I am not sure where you got the information he has no respect for his wife. I asked him if he is in an A and he said NO. Until proven otherwise, I believe what he says as I don't have any better sources of information. Regardless, this is irrelevant as his insights are sharp. I sincerely don't care about other posters' private lives. I take arguments on their own merit and avoid looking for reasons to engage in character assassination.   

HadMeOverABarrel

In denial of what?

Yes, I am familiar with the spiritual lingo but I chose the term Soulmate because it is better known than the "Twin Flame" notion. It makes sense to more people. Most people are not familiar with the Twin Flame theory and  since it's all speculation, most are even more prone to poo-poo it than the Soulmate proposition, which could be empirically explained in terms of high levels of compatibility. But yes - I do believe this person is my Twin Flame, if there is such a thing. Those so-called 'synchronicities' are there too, for whatever they are worth - most will say 'nothing').

**** I mentioned details here but decided to edit them out; privacy first. 

All of these would mean absolutely nothing (coincidences happen) if it wasn't for our outlook on life and 'ilk' which are  carbon copies. Yes, it's powerful stuff, and it's exactly because I understand such cases are not about Disney fantasies that I don't push for the "let's-get-together" scenario. Both of us have been on a path with other people and we need to finish what we started in this life. After all, people we love are involved too and their lives matter to us. We simply haven't stopped writing because there is always something of deep significance for both of us to comment on.  I wish I could have 10% of this level of connection in my marriage, but I don't, despite having tried for two decades. It's just a fact. It has nothing to do with disrespect or contempt.   

As for this,  

Quote

It is about feeling the love [you have/had for xAP] for yourself. Learn instead to give that level of love to yourself.  

 allow me to call it psycho-babble. The love for myself is just fine, but no - I cannot derive the same level of fulfillment from talking to myself as I derive from talking to him.

DKT3,

Quote

I will also ask again how do you see this ending?  You've conveniently avoided that question before. 

Hopefully it won't - and we will always write. He expressed the same wish.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Soul-shards

[Soul-shards]

17 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

I must confess I'm a bit confused as to why you quoted me, since what you wrote (while a fair point I suppose) was not a rebuttal, or even a response, to the point I was making about the immorality of attempting to convince people to take huge risks that they don't feel comfortable with taking.

This can only be explained through the 'vindication' you cited. Human nature is what it is.

[mark clemson]

Appreciate your kind words a few posts above, @Soul-shards.

One thing to be aware of as posters assess/judge your rationale for deciding to not to tell you husband is that in reality you don't actually need ANY rationale.

Any 10 year old could tell you that telling is taking a huge risk with your life situation and your children's future. You took the risk of discovery by cheating, you weren't discovered, and IF you're not comfortable with the prospect of telling, that's really all that matters.

If someone's riding their bike alongside a cliff, and bystanders are urging them to ride their bike OFF the cliff, the bike rider DOESN'T REALLY NEED to rationalize why they don't intend to. It's really that simple. IMO the motivations of the bystanders are what really needs rationalizing/analysis, particularly since they themselves can't see how steep the cliff will be.

Some folks may be assessing what you write to give you helpful insights - that's great. However, IMO it's clear many simply have their own agenda they are pushing, as already discussed. It's fortunate for you IMO that you are able to sense that much of the feedback/"analysis" is simply attempts at manipulating you into either ignoring your own need for self-preservation and "going their way" or making you feel "bad" about it - again to further that pre-existing agenda.

Anyhow, again - thank you for your kind words.

[mark clemson]

5 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

It is no wonder you and mark_clemson have found yourselves in agreement. As he seems to have the same contempt for his wife as well. 

No, SWS you couldn't be more wrong. If I had contempt for my wife I'd tell her.

[Acacia98]

On 2/21/2021 at 10:18 PM, Soul-shards said:

How is a life spent feeling frustrated, unfulfilled, and with a haunting sense that something more should have happened, despite everything perfect on paper  - NOT toxic?

How is life in a comfortable, committed, mundanely functional but fundamentally incompatible relationship NOT TOXIC, when one will never know what it is like to be deeply, sincerely, unconditionally, and completely  in love? Just because it doesn't threaten to disrupt the social order? I understand this is healthy for society, but don't tell me it is for the individuals involved. Those are the sacrificial lambs. 

Who says those kinds of marriages are not toxic? Of course they are toxic. I don't think these kinds of marriages maintain the social order or are healthy for society. If anything, they disrupt the social order because they enhance the likelihood of people having affairs.

On 2/23/2021 at 3:11 AM, Soul-shards said:

This is what HE believes, not me. He told me so many times - that he knows 100% that this would be his last relationship if our marriage failed. It is not ME who believes that, it is HIM!!

No, I am not telling him about these feelings because I don't want to hurt him and devastate him. It's that simple. 

I don't pretend to know how he would respond if you told him about these feelings. But I think it's interesting that you feel so certain about his thoughts, feelings, and actions in the present and the imagined future when your very actions reveal that it is possible for someone to appear satisfied with their marriage when they really aren't. If you have the capacity to feel unfulfilled, maybe he does too. If you can live an emotional double life, maybe he can too. If you're keeping your true feelings to yourself, maybe he is too. Maybe he's experiencing something parallel to what you're going through but has decided not to talk about it because he's convinced you are super-committed to remaining married and he doesn't want to disappoint you.

I seem to remember you telling someone in this thread something to the effect that they didn't know everything (forgive me if I imagined that). That's absolutely true. But, by the same token, you don't know everything either. You could be convinced that you're taking the least harmful path for everyone involved and something could go wrong (e.g. your husband reading these posts one day and figuring out it's you), leading to the kind of disastrous outcome you've been working hard to avoid. Or maybe one day, your desire to protect your husband and kids from your feelings will become such a huge and unbearable burden that you'll throw all caution to the wind and have a full-blown physical affair. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people who want to protect their loved ones from the truth end up hurting them much more deeply than they would have if they had just been forthcoming from the beginning.

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to convince you to change your standpoint. Just pointing out that your analysis of others' biases and assumptions could easily be applied to your own words. Just like some of the people you criticize, you would do well to engage in a bit of self-critique. In fact, that would probably be a more useful exercise for you than what you're doing here. After all, the most important person in your life story is you. The rest of us are just a bunch of strangers with strong opinions. It really doesn't matter in the big picture whether or not we are against your choices.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Acacia98