I feel awful

[basil67]

4 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

Key words.

There are no guarantees that the BS won't find out.   On LS we have posters recommending PIs, tracking devices, or OW/OM who decide to disclose in a fit of pique.

[DKT3]

@mark clemsonas usual we are not that far apart.  It can absolutely be selfish to divorce and leave.  I knew a woman who divorced so she could move to Paris, thinking it would allow her to take the kids....silly woman. 

I personally struggled with this,  it took me 8 months to wrap my mind around divorce.  I knew for me it was a must but many of the things you said slowed me down. Ultimately,  I had very little respect for my wife but I did love her. We all know what would have happened had I stayed. Little respect = resentment = hatred.  We still had two small children and she would always be a part of my life.

Now here is the separation,  without the information,  in the case of secrets,  you don't actually know that the spouse would even want to be married. 

Despite my very black and white views when it comes to how we treat people,  I'm very progressive.  I dont think there is any one size fits all style of relationship.  Two or more people can have whatever kind of relationship they wish, given everyone is in the loop. 

Excluding someone from information that would most definitely alter their view of the relationship and even kill thier desire to be there at all, also kills the balk of your stance. 

Now, my personal opinion,  for what its worth,  I dont believe your wife would want a divorce given all the information.  But you still owe it to her.

 

 

[mark clemson]

You're entitled to your view. I have no issue with discussing general concepts that may apply to a particular poster and their situation, but - why are you now making this thread about me?

Edited February 26, 2021 by mark clemson

[Zona]

9 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I guess the suggestion of an open marriage in and of itself may be a reason for divorce...
Yet it gets bandied about here as if it is a viable solution to just about any marriage problem...

I lived in a open marriage for about 4 months, only I had no idea. It was only "open" for my WW, just like in this case.

I think people are smart enough to know that if your spouse asks for an open marriage, they are already cheating and they have moved on from you.

[Hulahoop]

I didn’t want an open marriage nor did I want an affair. I didn’t go looking for one and the speed that it happened after a long period of friendship made me feel like it was out of my control. I know that sounds ridiculous. But honestly I felt like we belonged together. He told me he had settled for his wife, no longer loved her and wanted to be with me. That’s all I could see. I was very blinkered. Yes that’s very selfish but it’s the truth. All I could see and think about was this man telling me how much he loved me and how much he thought of me. 
I know now that I have very low self esteem. From things that happened before my marriage and then during my marriage. This man made me feel loved for me. And while that’s very selfish, I had never really thought about me before and I slipped right into it. Reading these words makes me feel horrid. Against his wife and my husband but at the time it wasn’t about them. We belonged together. I also know that’s a very naive way to think but as I’ve said I’ve never had an affair so like many others I expect thought mine was special. The real deal. 

Even after when we were just friends but spoke continuously every day, which partners didn’t know about, he would compliment me and tell me he loved me but had to pick his children. I got so stressed, so anxious; wondering where he was and what he was doing, I constantly had my phone by me for when he messaged. I needed to stop the cycle as again selfishly it was becoming too much and I was too weak to just walk away. I needed him.  
 

I think I do need to talk to someone about this to find out was it him i needed or something else. 

[Caauug]

36 minutes ago, Hulahoop said:

He told me he had settled for his wife, no longer loved her and wanted to be with me. That’s all I could see.

I don't think he was lying to you. He just wasn't telling you everything....

As stated before most MM do not leave their BS for the AP, if they have a choice. Looking at it logically, he has a lot to loose in a D. At the very best he gets to keep 50%, most likely around 20% if he has kids and maybe less with a verdictive wife that wants every last cent out of him. If the wife wants to call the police and claim sexual abuse with a child.... He ends up in jail fighting for his life. Yes, this happens. At best he will only get to see his kids 50% of the time, every other weekend more likely, if he is lucky....

So he will be paying child support to his ExW, maybe alimony to her for support, he will likely have lost nearly everything he has worked for and then you were thinking he was going to play "Dad" to your children in your new loving family? That's a big ask from someone that has be D raped, to just jump back into the fire so to speak…. For him to be able to afford both his own family and yours would be a major demand on him....

For him it was more likely he wanted a little fluff on the side to make his life interesting, you gave that to him. Why would he want to then buy into your plans when he is getting what he wants for free??? 

This is clearly a failed monkey branch swing to a bigger better deal. Hypergamy at it's finest. Maybe look at improving yourself before looking at others to improve you. Ya, I know, only wishful thinking on my part....

 

[World Peace Guy]

Where both of you went wrong, was cheating on your spouses. What happened after that, is just the natural course of events. Cheating is wrong, because it breaks up marriages. He is just as much to blame as you are in what happened. You are no more to blame than he. In fact, since you resisted it longer than he, I'd say he is more to blame than you. It may be that you had a moment of weakness, and he should have resisted you, but he didn't. I don't know your situation.

Learn from this. This is what cheating is. It is not all pleasure, it is pain as well. But also, don't beat yourself up to badly, for something he did to himself. He knew what he was getting into when he started cheating. All men know this. They just don't value their families as much as they should.

[Hulahoop]

I know there was no sense in any of it and I was stupid and naive to think it would all be lovely and amazing. I regret all of it and wish I could just go back to being his friend. Because besides all else I have lost a very very good friend. And I miss him.  It was just stupidity that I thought he would do all that for me and that we were worth it. He constantly told me that I was and that’s what he wanted so I kept believing it.  Just made a huge mess of everything and now he continues his marriage in happiness (I know this isn’t strictly true but that’s what my head tells me) and I’m stuck 

[Wiseman2]

13 minutes ago, Hulahoop said:

 I was.that we were worth it.He constantly told me that I was and that’s what he wanted so I kept believing it. 

Your entire post, the good, the bad and the ugly is all in the past tense.

Just put it behind you.

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, Hulahoop said:

I think I do need to talk to someone about this to find out was it him i needed or something else. 

You were ripe for the picking. 

This started as an emotional affair. And then it became physical. It’s that slippery slope, it makes the progression of the relationship feel natural and inevitable. But, it’s not. 

It starts with a very inappropriate friendship. Boundaries are crossed, intimacies are shared - like a woman who has been thirsty for a long time, you drink his attention and affirmation greedily. 

Now, you bemoan the fact that you have lost a good friend. But, you were already over the line with that friendship. That which you long for was also not healthy for you. 

It’s a hard lesson to learn. The affair is discovered and he did what most MM do - he ran home before he could even say goodbye. And you are left to pickup the pieces - of your life, your marriage, and to reconcile all the decisions you made along the way that lead you to this place...

Edited February 26, 2021 by BaileyB

[BourneWicked]

The bonus here being.. your actions got your answer. The one that so many living secretly in this don't. 

He doesn't care. 

Let that be enough to remove your energy, and put it towards people you care about, who care about you, and spending time pursuing goals that are important to you 

[BaileyB]

27 minutes ago, BourneWicked said:

The bonus here being.. your actions got your answer. The one that so many living secretly in this don't. 

He doesn't care. 

 Very true. But still, a bitter pill to swallow. And thus, the struggle...

How could one who said he loved me, told me that this relationship had value, leave so unceremoniously...

That’s the question she is asking right now. But, the better question is - accepting that you may never know what he was thinking and why he did exactly what he did, how do you move forward? All you can really do is examine your own role in this affair and begin to put your energy to the future and not the past...

Edited February 26, 2021 by BaileyB

[Bittersweetie]

8 hours ago, Hulahoop said:

I think I do need to talk to someone about this to find out was it him i needed or something else. 

Hula, this is key! I think it's more likely about what you needed than him as a person. In my case, I projected a lot of what I wanted and needed at that time onto my AP. Therefore I made him "perfect" in my eyes and no one else, not even my H, could compare (because my AP wasn't a "real" person). Focus more on pinpointing what about him made you feel good, what he did that met your needs, that can help get to the root cause of all of these choices, and will also provide clarity and strength for you and what you decide moving forward. 

[Hulahoop]

Yes that’s it. I’m finding it hard to get that closure and move on. When his wife found out he rang me and was speaking to me. She went to his parents. His dad then went to his house and gave him a load of abuse and AP felt so bad. He felt so bad when his children witnessed him trying to leave when he had to end physical relationship and then again when they witnessed his wife finding out. He and I felt terribly guilty about that. His wife told him that if he left she would tell his children that he left them for me. And that she would move them away. Now, I still think he would have chosen her but at the time and for a year after I was lead to believe he only stayed because of the children, but once his parents found out he cut off all contact with me. For a while after I still thought it was because of what they had said and that he really did still love me. I think I burnt that though by telling her. Although he doesn’t know for sure that it was me. I just need that closure. 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Hulahoop said:

She went to his parents. His dad then went to his house and gave him a load of abuse and AP felt so bad.

Was it really abuse or was it just a cold, hard reality check? 

2 hours ago, Hulahoop said:

He felt so bad when his children witnessed him trying to leave when he had to end physical relationship and then again when they witnessed his wife finding out. His wife told him that if he left she would tell his children that he left them for me.

This is abusive. For the children to witness such things, for one spouse to threaten to bring the children into the dispute - somebody had to step in here. Perhaps, his parents did exactly as they should have done - if for no other reason than to protect those children. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by BaileyB

[Hulahoop]

Yes I think you’re right.  Even he knows things should have been handled differently.  It’s just such an awful mess and he needed to stay with his children. I do understand that. I just need to get closure and move on now. 

[HappyAgain2014]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:15 AM, Hulahoop said:

Yes I think you’re right.  Even he knows things should have been handled differently.  It’s just such an awful mess and he needed to stay with his children. I do understand that. I just need to get closure and move on now. 

Closure is a myth. Not sure if you realize it, but you’re still making excuses for why he isn’t with you ....his children. He is not a saint who is sacrificing his happiness to be father of the year. Let that really sink in because you believing that got you into the affair and keeps you emotionally attached. He’s not with you because he’s where he wants to be which is with his family. That includes children AND his wife. 

Affairs are about feeling desired and living in a fantasy. Once that bubble is popped, nothing is left. 
 

[Soul-shards]

Quote

Affairs are about feeling desired...

as opposed to marriage which is...?

Marriages should be about feeling desired too, among others. If you're not - you kinda have a problem in your hands. Something's gonna have to give.

 

Quote

Closure is a myth.

...or not. A sense that one can't achieve self-realization/fulfillment/peace in life can cause major psychological disturbances.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Soul-shards

[sandylee1]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:25 AM, mark clemson said:

If your partner wants you to stay, it's selfish to leave. "How selfish" in any given case/situation is a matter of debate. Even if the partner is actually abusive, it's still selfish to leave, although of course it's a completely understandable .....

 

Sorry... but this got me. There is absolutely nothing selfish about leaving an abusive partner. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous for victims of abuse...who are often told this by their abusers and they are subject to continued abuse.

Staying in an abusive relationship is damaging and just because your partner wants you to stay, doesn't make it selfish to leave. Abusers do want you to stay, so they can continue the abuse.

Part of my my work is supporting survivors of domestic abuse and to say that it's selfish to leave an abusive relationship is so wrong. 

I've seen first hand the irreparable damage that not leaving has done to the survivor and the children. 

[sandylee1]

On 2/26/2021 at 3:57 PM, Hulahoop said:

When his wife found out he rang me and was speaking to me. She went to his parents. His dad then went to his house and gave him a load of abuse and AP felt so bad. He felt so bad when his children witnessed him trying to leave when he had to end physical relationship and then again when they witnessed his wife finding out. He and I felt terribly guilty about that. His wife told him that if he left she would tell his children that he left them for me. And that she would move them away. Now, I still think he would have chosen her but at the time and for a year after I was lead to believe he only stayed because of the children, but once his parents found out he cut off all contact with me. For a while after I still thought it was because of what they had said and that he really did still love me. I think I burnt that though by telling her.  

He obviously comes from a family with values, hence his wife went to his parents. It's quite refreshing to see this as opposed to some parents who entertain the AP and keep the secret while the affair is ongoing. 

With much of this post, it's clear he didn't think through the consequences of his actions...when faced with the reality and the hurt he had caused, it was just too much. He would have been ashamed, so even if he did love you..which he may have, he realises that a future with you would cost too much...and I don't mean financially. 

It's the loss of respect from his parents and his kids. His parents would likely shun him and probably mutual friends as well. 

If for some reason he's truly unhappy in his marriage, he'll realise that a new partner who he meets after leaving the marriage with a clean start, would be more welcome by his family. 

I hope you'll be okay for the amount of time you remain in the marriage until the kids leave....it sounds quite lonely and unfulfilling. 

I know you said you didn't go looking for an affair, but given the state of your marriage, it's really no surprise it happened.

[Pumpernickel]

On 3/1/2021 at 9:18 PM, Soul-shards said:

 

...or not. A sense that one can't achieve self-realization/fulfillment/peace in life can cause major psychological disturbances.

Yea, so? 
 

I think what @HappyAgain2014meant was:
 

If a relationship ends, or an affair, you’re never given sufficient closure if you’re not the one to break up. If they do sit down with you and explain themselves, you’ll never accept their explanation anyways. Because you have seen the whole relationship in a different light. Their perspective is different, otherwise they wouldn’t be ok ending the relationship. So that won’t help you. No “closure” there. It won’t come from them, trust me.

If you feel like you can’t achieve self-realization & fulfillment, you definitely won’t get sufficient soothing and comfort from another person. They won’t be able to solve that problem for you. No soothing will ever be enough. You’ll be a bottomless pit for the rest of your days. 

[MilaVaneela]

1 hour ago, sandylee1 said:

Sorry... but this got me. There is absolutely nothing selfish about leaving an abusive partner. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous for victims of abuse...who are often told this by their abusers and they are subject to continued abuse.

Staying in an abusive relationship is damaging and just because your partner wants you to stay, doesn't make it selfish to leave. Abusers do want you to stay, so they can continue the abuse.

Part of my my work is supporting survivors of domestic abuse and to say that it's selfish to leave an abusive relationship is so wrong. 

I've seen first hand the irreparable damage that not leaving has done to the survivor and the children. 

THANK YOU!!!! Thank you so much. How many battered spouses end up dead or seriously injured because they’re subjected to this line of thinking? It doesn’t sit right with me that not wanting to be killed or permanently disabled is considered “selfish” by anyone. I know that the reluctance to leave someone I loved very much at the time “alone” for my own health and safety caused me to stay in an abusive situation for far longer than I should have (not just my xH but my late mother was an abusive parent as well and she guilted me into staying with her instead of my dad because she claimed she “needed” me and did I want her to be “lost” without me). Calling the decision to remove oneself from a volatile and potentially dangerous  situation “selfish” is simplistic and does way more harm than anything else. 
Thank you for the work you do with survivors, you are a gem. 

@Hulahoop I’m so sorry for the threadjack but I just had to address this. That said: Bittersweetie put it so beautifully that I’ll just quote it again- 

 

On 2/26/2021 at 10:56 AM, Bittersweetie said:

Focus more on pinpointing what about him made you feel good, what he did that met your needs, that can help get to the root cause of all of these choices, and will also provide clarity and strength for you and what you decide moving forward. 

I do wish you much strength to go forward. I’m so sorry that your marriage is lonely and unfulfilling. @BaileyB made a good point in an earlier post about finding support in other places since you and your husband are so disconnected. I know when I left my first marriage, I had my favorite aunt, one of my cousins and a dear friend and coworker who were willing (along with my therapist) to be my sounding board and to encourage me. Do you have anyone who can do that for you? 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, sandylee1 said:

Sorry... but this got me. There is absolutely nothing selfish about leaving an abusive partner. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerous for victims of abuse...who are often told this by their abusers and they are subject to continued abuse.

Staying in an abusive relationship is damaging and just because your partner wants you to stay, doesn't make it selfish to leave.

Technically it is. You are leaving for your own benefit.

I don't think anyone in their right mind (including myself) would blame them for leaving, as it's escaping harm/self-preservation.

I was responding to a claim that it's not always selfish to leave. It is almost always selfish. It is also selfish to put food in one's mouth that someone else could be eating, but we all do it all the time anyhow - AND I'm not blaming anyone for that either (unless it's at some egregious level of depriving others).

My thinking is not dangerous to anyone - you are either not seeing or disregarding the nuances of what I'm saying.  For clarity: I don't think people in an abusive should stay just because it's technically selfish to leave. Being selfish is not the same as being "bad," and that's particularly true when self-preservation is involved. That is a point I already made above.

If a person GENUINELY WANTED to stay themselves, but left because they felt their kids were in danger, THAT would not be selfish.

[HappyAgain2014]

5 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

Yea, so? 
 

I think what @HappyAgain2014meant was:
 

If a relationship ends, or an affair, you’re never given sufficient closure if you’re not the one to break up. If they do sit down with you and explain themselves, you’ll never accept their explanation anyways. Because you have seen the whole relationship in a different light. Their perspective is different, otherwise they wouldn’t be ok ending the relationship. So that won’t help you. No “closure” there. It won’t come from them, trust me.

If you feel like you can’t achieve self-realization & fulfillment, you definitely won’t get sufficient soothing and comfort from another person. They won’t be able to solve that problem for you. No soothing will ever be enough. You’ll be a bottomless pit for the rest of your days. 

Closure comes from within. It means you’ve reconciled what you needed to and stop putting energy into it. It’s acceptance.  It’s often a topic here because many OWs believe they haven’t heard the perfect words that will provide peace AKA closure. The reality is these relationships were always hanging by a thread, were full of big highs and even bigger lows, and most abruptly end. It feels like something is missing and the assumption is closure. Reality is the affair was a hot mess that blew up and most OWs feel discarded. 

This search for closure is usually a deep need to understand and justify how the hell you got here. It’s what occurs to you after you’re done making excuses for his and your participation in the affair, question every thing he ever said, and how cruel it is to be forced apart. What’s left?  How you became a statistic and how foolish you feel.  There’s no magic words to fix those feelings. You have to live with it, face reality and move on to relationships with single people. That is real closure. 
 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by HappyAgain2014

[Snakesalive]

12 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

No “closure” there. It won’t come from them, trust me.

True . This has really taken me a long time to believe but you are so right . I realise I’m giving the OP my power by trying to get closure from him -it’s not his to give .