Should I stay or should I go?

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

I am brand new to this forum. I have been married for about 15 years and together with my wife for almost 20. I love my wife, and we have a teenage daughter. However, I am deeply unhappy in our marriage. My wife is bossy, controlling, angry, negative, boring, manipulative and downright abusive towards me at times. She and my daughter are at each other's throats constantly, and there are constant screaming fits of rage between them (there is fault on both sides, but my wife should be held to a higher standard being an adult). My daughter constantly says she hates my wife, and she often tells me she wishes I would divorce my wife. My wife and I seem to be moving in opposite directions. I have been going through a midlife crisis for over a year now. It feels like my wife and I want totally different things out of life. She is a homebody and I am a social person. I enjoy bars, night clubs and live music, while she isn't into those things at all. I am really focused on weight loss and exercise, while she isn't athletic in the slightest and is quite overweight. She is also quite lazy in many ways. It feels like I am aging in reverse and starting to want to really live life to the fullest as I reach an important milestone in my life and now that my daughter is at an age where she can be left alone for a few hours. I feel like I can finally do some of the things I want to do and regain my life (my wife works nights mainly on weekends, so for many years, having much of a social life wasn't really an option). I believe the pandemic is exacerbating our problems, but we aren't really fighting at the moment because I am not really able to go out with everything being closed (that will change once I try to go out with my friends again). We haven't been intimate in several years. For me, it's that cliché of loving her but not being in love with her. It often feels like we are siblings or roommates, and I have lost all physical attraction for her (even though objectively I know she isn't an unattractive woman, despite her size -- I am no Adonis either, although I have lost a considerable amount of weight over the past few years).

All of this started when I met a lovely lady over a year ago. She was a complete stranger I met in a bar. Nothing happened at all and she wasn't even into me (she really liked a family member of mine). He turned out not to be interested in her in the end, but I thought she was a sweetheart and I was really disappointed when he wouldn't go for it with her. For some reason, I eventually ended up developing a huge crush on her myself despite the fact she is a stranger (I haven't seen her since that night). After more than a year, I have finally stopped thinking about her, but I am instead thinking about a female friend of mine. This lady is actively dating other men, I am pretty sure I'm not really her type and I know she is off limits to me anyway. Even if my marriage ended, I am pretty sure I would always be in the friendzone with her. Again, no cheating of any kind happened with her, but I am pretty sure she likes me on some level (despite me not being her type). She is everything my wife isn't: fun, exciting and into many of the same things I enjoy.

The end result of meeting these two ladies and developing feelings for them was that I really started questioning my marriage. I am deeply unhappy in my marriage, and I have come to the conclusion that I really want to go in the direction of separation and divorce. I cannot help but feel that this isn't living. It often feels like a prison, and we are just barely existing. There is so much anger, abuse and hatred in our household. My wife has expressed frustration at the lack of intimacy, but on some level she is content with the status quo. I am worried about having developed a "wandering eye" (although I would never actually cheat on my wife, no matter how bad things got). I really don't want to continually develop these strong feelings for other women, but I can't help but think things would be better with someone else. While I still like both of the ladies who caught my eye in the past year, I realize it isn't really even about them and I would have very little chance with either of these women even if my marriage ended. In many ways, it isn't about them specifically, but more about what they represent. 

There are a number of problems with this. First of all, my wife does not feel the same way about wanting to separate, and she is burying her head in the sand with respect to our marital problems. I know separation and divorce would destroy her and break her heart. I feel tremendous guilt about that, and I wonder if I am just being selfish and shallow by wanting to end our marriage. Things are alright probably 70% of the time, but the 30% is intolerable. I still love this woman in many ways, and I would want to have her in my life in some capacity no matter what happened. The problem is she confirmed that we would be enemies and would only communicate via text messaging if we ever went our separate ways (I am sure that is the way it would play out because that is just her personality). She would be nasty and vindictive, and I don't even know where I could go if we separated (money is pretty tight, although I am the main breadwinner). I was all gung-ho about separation a couple of months ago, but now I am not so sure. We were going to go to counselling, but my wife would never allow me any privacy for the personal sessions (especially with everything being online/virtual at the moment), and I did attend personal sessions a year ago that didn't help me all that much (all they did for me was validate that my feelings were "normal" and that I had no solid ground in my life -- not my marriage, family life, job, career or finances, and my wife grilled me after every session and wanted to know everything I told the counsellor). I am also worried that the way my wife behaves towards my daughter would come to light and the authorities would end up investigating my wife. I am at the point where I don't even want to plan for the future, and I hate it when my wife tries to plan anything more than a month into the future. The problem is I really don't think I want to have a future with her, but I cannot envision a future without her either or summon the courage to do what I know deep down I want to and should be doing. Can anyone offer any advice or strategies for a marriage that isn't good, but isn't absolutely awful 100% of the time either, when you still love your spouse at least on some level?

[LivingWaterPlease]

What do you love about her on "some level?"

[d0nnivain]

You already have a wandering eye which is often fatal to a marriage.  I think you should get out before you cheat.  You can't divorce because an angry teenager told you to.  I used to tell my parents to divorce all the time but they didn't; as an adult I have been insights into their dynamic.  

Still either continue MC & double down on making it work but if your wife won't participate i& continues to bury her head in the sand, you are better off leaving before you do something stupid like cheat.  You seem to be headed in that direction with your desire for fitness & weight loss, these 2 women & your continued enjoyment of bars / nightclubs.  That combination will eventually drive you to an affair which you will attempt to justify by saying that your wife is "bossy, controlling, angry, negative, boring, manipulative and downright abusive."  Skip all the drama.  Just end it.  

If you need privacy for your IC, take a short drive & call the counselor from your car.  

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

@LivingWaterPleas: As mentioned, I still love my wife as a human being. It feels like she is my sister rather than my wife. It is more like a familial love at this point, rather than a romantic, passionate love between a married couple. I put much of it down to her treatment of me, which is downright unacceptable and emasculating (even her own family have commented on the way she bosses, controls and nags me, with my mother-in-law often shouting at her to "Lay off of him!" and my brother in-law confiding in my mother in-law that he doesn't know how I can put up with her). She constantly tells me what to do, criticizes me all of the time, monitors my whereabouts, tries to control my spending by making me live like a pauper (while she spends to her heart's desire) and always always always tries to stop me from having any kind of fun, even when it is completely harmless and innocent. My father and brother don't want to be around her because they can't stand the way she treats me, and even some of her friends have commented how she wants to control me (she saves her particularly bad behaviour for when she has an audience so that others can see how totally under her thumb I am). Several people have commented that she may have a personality disorder. Yet she is fairly nice and things are half decent maybe 70% of the time.

@d0nnivain: Thanks for your input and suggestions. I could try calling from my car, but my wife even tries to stop me going for drives, even when I say it's for my mental health (I work from home and will be doing so for the foreseeable future). She won't let us get a second car, and even one of her friends told her and me it's about control of me. Still, I might be able to get out for a bit for a call. I tend to think things are over between us, but I meant it when I said I wouldn't cheat on my wife. That isn't something I would do, no matter how bad things got. Others have confirmed that I have plenty justification for ending my marriage, but I am starting to feel such guilt for wanting to do that. A big part of the problem is I know my wife wouldn't handle it well. I can imagine her alone in some apartment stuffing her face and crying herself to sleep every night. The reason I mentioned my daughter is because her relationship with my wife adds an additional layer of unhappiness to our home life. My daughter is NOT an angel, but my wife won't leave her alone and is constantly on her case and insulting her. The level of anger, rage and vitriol in this house is just unacceptable. I also think my daughter would probably come with me if my wife and I went our separate ways. However, I understand that it is important to take a teenager's angry words with a grain of salt!

[FMW]

19 minutes ago, Marriage_Ambivalence said:

but my wife even tries to stop me going for drives,

She doesn't want to separate or divorce either, so bottom line, unless you do nothing and keep the status quo, she's going to be unhappy.  Tell her you are going for a ride regardless of her feelings about it.  Stand up to her, stop allowing her to control your actions. 

Individual counseling might help you get clarity on how to move forward.

[d0nnivain]

Perhaps it's time for an ultimatum.  I hate them especially in a relationship but if you do this you have to follow through.  If you put it out there & then don't walk she will know you are not a man of your word & things will get worse.  

You need to sit her down, tell her you love her but that right now you feel like it's a sisterly love not the love of a man & wife.  You are at your wit's end with her controlling & you find yourself on a slippery slope.  Tell her she needs to lighten up & you both need to work on your marriage.  Ask her what she wants to be happy & fulfilled.  Try giving her some of what she wants if it's reasonable.  But you have to extract from her a commitment to lighten up & work to get things back on tract or else you will have no choice but to divorce.  

[notbroken]

"Fix it or break it".   In other words, either be 'all in' on your marriage, go to counselling, get buy in from your wife, both make whatever changes are necessary, etc - or separate and divorce.  Half in isn't going to ultimately bring you much different / happiness.  Whatever happens, don't chase other women while you are married.   Just isn't healthy for you, your family, your girlfriends, or anyone for that matter.  If you divorce, don't expect a relationship with your ex.   Anger will likely set in and things won't be 'rosy' after that.   As unfortunate as it is that probably should not factor into your decision that much.   Just don't go forward thinking you will somehow maintain a great relationship with her.  Likely won't happen.    The lack of intimacy would be intolerable for me quite honestly.   Just doesn't sound like you have much in common with her anymore unfortunately.   Find a way to fix it - and quick.  If not, it will be a long and painful road but you can come out the other side of a divorce happy if you work at it.    Divorce is NOT easy and you as well as your family will suffer for a while for it.   That said, it may be the best answer if things just aren't salvageable.   

[notbroken]

I missed the controlling and belittling part.   Honestly, that shouldn't be tolerated - ever.  Definitely grounds for divorce.  Tell her the next time she does it you are finished. 

[Wiseman2]

You don't  need her permission to privately and confidentially  consult an attorney to see what your options would be in the event of divorce.

You also do not nee her consent to privately and confidentially see your physician for an evaluation of your general health, moods, anxiety etc.

You also can confidentially and privately ask your doctor for a referral to a therapist where you can privately discus your issues in the marriage and your interest in other women.

 You can love your wife "as a human being" and the mother of your kids, but that doesn't equate to staying miserable in a marriage of convenience. You  cam do that when divorce.

However you're not doing yourself or her any favors seething with resentment and coasting along out of fear.

[LivingWaterPlease]

I'm so sorry, MA! That does sound like a miserable existence to me!

1. You're going to have to learn to stand up to her

OR

2. Continue living in h_ _ _

OR

3. Divorce

I see no other answers.

Do you think you may be conflict avoidant? Maybe if you start standing up for yourself (and enduring her worst behavior until she sees you won't back down) consistently your relationship with her may change.

It's just, can you be consistent about not allowing her to boss you around? Don't argue with her. Just go do whatever it is you want to do. She'll probably throw hissy fits for awhile. When she does that, ignore her. Easier said than done, I know.

If you can't do this, divorce may be your only choice. She sounds abusive to me and that's not good for your daughter to see. Your wife is modeling for your daughter how to behave in a marriage. And your daughter will naturally (innately) look for a man who will tolerate that type of behavior.

I know a couple who is like this. I believe the wife is bipolar. She may have other issues. I love both the man and his wife but it's hard to be around. The man seems to over look it. He is calm and never argues back. I do think, though, that he does what he wants to do. But he is belittled and disparaged all the time. He is tall and very good looking. He doesn't go out to bars, though, and has always been faithful to her. I don't know how he stands it.

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

Thanks everyone for your input. Bottom line is I need to get out of this awful state of limbo I am in with my wife. I either need to improve things, put up and shut up or move towards separation and divorce. I do think I need to put my foot down about her controlling behaviour and insist on having the life I want (while still respecting her, spending time with her and being considerate of her needs) and at least giving counselling a try. I do care about this woman a lot, but I'm not happy either. It is so hard, but I cannot live like this anymore. Even when things are "good," it's because she is being so syrupy-sweet with me it isn't genuine. As long as I am a good boy and am totally compliant, everything seems alright, but as soon as I start to want to be myself it causes problems. The problems between her and my daughter are also unacceptable and causing me (and everyone else in the house) pain and anguish.

I am looking forward to being able to go out with my friends again. Some of the people in the crowd I met about a year ago happen to be women. I do enjoy nightlife, but I don't go to bars to meet women. I just enjoy music, laughter, conversations and having a few drinks. Even when I was single I didn't necessarily go out to meet women. Who knows what will happen when things start to reopen more? I am going to insist on having a social life, but I will NOT ever cheat on my wife. Still, I am also kind of looking forward to asserting myself with my wife as well because her manipulating and controlling me like that is simply unacceptable. I get that she is scared of losing me, but the absolute worst thing she can do is clamp down on me and treat me like a prisoner. If she tried to do that, I would leave her for sure, regardless of the consequences.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Marriage_Ambivalence

[bananatree]

Wow.  You have typed out my story almost to a T!  But I'm the wife.  My husband is like a father figure to me (he's older) and I love him alot.  But we are roommates and that's it.  There's also a strong history of negativity and abuse.  He's also boring and prefers to just watch TV.  He's also unemployed (or barely employed) and that adds to the tension and chaos.  Everything your wrote about your wife is how I feel about my husband.  Even the counseling was totally unproductive.

I told him last year that we are separating.  We sleep in separate rooms and I began seeing other people.  But the logistical nightmare of actual divorce keeps me up at night.

I feel like in my case, my husband and I have no chance of ever being happy together.  So, I will file for divorce.

My feeling is this:  If everything about your marriage is totally morbid and decrepit, I think you have your answer.  You are in a period of growth and expansion.  Your daughter is suffering with the negative vibes (I also have a teen daughter who is BEGGING for divorce!).  Your wife will be hurt, but sometimes it's important to allow someone to feel the pain of their actions.  She sounds like she has a lot of growth to do herself, and leaving her might be the best thing that ever happened to her (she may decide to get fit, confront her anger and negativity, get out of the house and find a social life again).  

Marriage is a wonderful thing and commitment is valuable, but relationships shouldn't be prisons like you describe.  They obviously also take work, but kicking a dead horse is kicking a dead horse. You sound the a person with a lot of life in you yet and if you could wake up every morning feeling excited for the day ahead instead of dread for the many, many hours you will have to endure before sweet sleep comes again, then I think you should take that chance.  Best.

Edited March 9, 2021 by bananatree

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

2 hours ago, bananatree said:

Wow.  You have typed out my story almost to a T!  But I'm the wife.  My husband is like a father figure to me (he's older) and I love him alot.  But we are roommates and that's it.  There's also a strong history of negativity and abuse.  He's also boring and prefers to just watch TV.  He's also unemployed (or barely employed) and that adds to the tension and chaos.  Everything your wrote about your wife is how I feel about my husband.  Even the counseling was totally unproductive.

I told him last year that we are separating.  We sleep in separate rooms and I began seeing other people.  But the logistical nightmare of actual divorce keeps me up at night.

I feel like in my case, my husband and I have no chance of ever being happy together.  So, I will file for divorce.

My feeling is this:  If everything about your marriage is totally morbid and decrepit, I think you have your answer.  You are in a period of growth and expansion.  Your daughter is suffering with the negative vibes (I also have a teen daughter who is BEGGING for divorce!).  Your wife will be hurt, but sometimes it's important to allow someone to feel the pain of their actions.  She sounds like she has a lot of growth to do herself, and leaving her might be the best thing that ever happened to her (she may decide to get fit, confront her anger and negativity, get out of the house and find a social life again).  

Marriage is a wonderful thing and commitment is valuable, but relationships shouldn't be prisons like you describe.  They obviously also take work, but kicking a dead horse is kicking a dead horse. You sound the a person with a lot of life in you yet and if you could wake up every morning feeling excited for the day ahead instead of dread for the many, many hours you will have to endure before sweet sleep comes again, then I think you should take that chance.  Best.

In some ways it's comforting to know I'm not the only one going through this, although I do empathize with you @bananatree. It is really hard when you still care about the person but things just aren't working. I still feel incredible guilt about wanting to leave my wife and like I'm being shallow and selfish. The logistics would also be incredibly difficult for me if we ever did separate. There is hardly enough money for one household, never mind two, we only have one car and I have nowhere else I could go to live until our house sold. My wife would make it deliberately difficult. I also worry that I am thinking with another part of my anatomy other than my head in hoping maybe I can meet someone else.

But I think I need to do a few things before throwing in the towel. While I have my misgivings about counselling, I do think we should at least try couple's counselling. I also think I need to put my foot down and insist on some of the things I need in my life to make me feel whole. Those include a decent social life, time to myself, less bossing and controlling from her and the ability to further and change my career (I am in a tough spot with my job and career at the moment, and my wife is often really unsympathetic about that). We also need to work on things with my daughter and the family dynamic. Perhaps we will eventually start to get the spark back in our marriage, but I think we also need to try to find some common interests (all my wife seems to want to do is shop at big box stores, watch Netflix or go for coffee and that isn't cutting it). I am willing to give it a go, but part of me also wants to push the envelope by presenting my list of non-negotiables and insisting on certain things in order to feel whole. If she won't allow me those things or throws a hissy fit like she does every time I want to go out (I practically have to beg her to let me go out and she throws every objection under the sun at me when I do), then I will have my answer. I know some of her friends and family don't think it's appropriate that I go out to bars as a middle aged married man, but I don't care; I know I'm not going to cheat on my wife, become an alcoholic or put us in the poor house. They also don't understand what I've gone through. I love socializing and I finally have friends who want to do things with me. For the past 13 years, I've spent almost every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night at home and I am getting sick of feeling like a prisoner. Now that my daughter can be on her own for a few hours, I don't see the harm in going out with friends to catch a live band locally. Since my wife doesn't like nightlife and bars, what else am I to do? I don't think there is anything wrong with getting some of your needs met outside your marriage (I am not talking sexually or romantically), as long as there is respect and companionship and at least some quality time, shared interests and activities spent together. Hopefully once things reopen to a greater extent (we are still kind of in lockdown), she will loosen up, but if not, I am no longer willing to be under her thumb.

[bananatree]

@Marriage_Ambivalence Honestly, you sound like your soul is being sucked out.  At least my husband "lets" me live my life.  I travel by myself, see friends regularly and even date people.  (No, we are not working it out, we are playing it out until we can find a logistical solution). 

I would ask you to question your guilt.  Leaving a basically happy and okay marriage for the "next new thing" might be selfish and usually doesn't work out.  But that doesn't appear to be what you are doing.  It seems like you want to leave a mostly unhappy marriage (well, you say 30% is intolerable) AND give yourself the option of finding love and romance in the future.  That doesn't seem selfish to me.  

Selfish means putting your needs before the welfare of others. It's not bad, firstly, to prioritize your needs IMO.  But I also question who wins if you stick it out and stay married?  Whose needs are you prioritizing?  What good are you accomplishing except maintaining a toxic status quo? Your daughter supports divorce, so "staying for the kids" doesn't seem to be an excuse to stay married.  Your wife wants you to stick around and be the breadwinner, sure, but she seems unwilling to meet you where you are at, be a partner to you or acknowledge that you're a sovereign and autonomous person with your own interests and life.  Staying home every weekend for 13 years watching Netflix? Want 13 more of that?

It seems like you have an instinct to fight for your own happiness and growth.  Never feel guilty for that if the motivation is genuine and not some flash-in-the-pan, sorry attempt to regain a lost youth.  From what you describe, I can viscerally feel you dying a little bit every day.  

Just the fact that your wife threatens you with emotional terrorism (I'll only ever talk by text!), speaks volumes.  You say you love her, but does she love you?  Love is not abusive, controlling, manipulative or threatening.  It's just not.  You seem like a respectful husband who is just clamoring for the crumbs of both life and love right now. 

[bananatree]

@Marriage_Ambivalence But I also want to say that I get you completely.  Staying doesn't mean you are NOT fighting for yourself or resigning.  I understand that leaving would put you in the position of the "bad guy" (which is hard to accept-- even if you are not a bad guy), and exchanging over a decade's worth of family traditions, familiarity, security and yes love for acrimony with a person who is, for better or worse, very important to you and the mother of your child, is no easy task at all.

I think your plan to set some firm boundaries and requirements is important in your case.  It's NOT a crime to socialize with friends and see live music!  If she wants to join you, great! You are not even in the slightest asking anything unreasonable. If you can try that and still get fighting and push-back, then you will have your answer. 

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

@bananatree, thanks once again for your kind and helpful words. I appreciate that you can see both sides of this debate. On the positive side, my wife and I complement each other in many ways. We're different, but she's the yin to my yang. We have lots of shared memories and it's uncanny how often we think exactly the same thing at the same time. Even when things are strained, we can enjoy a laugh and a joke together, not to mention all of the times over the past 20 years when it felt like the whole world around us was insane and it was her and I against the world. The truth is that having a midlife crisis and developing a wandering eye was the catalyst for me questioning my marriage (and frankly, just about every aspect of my life), so I wasn't entirely innocent in all of this (although to some extent, I believe we can't really beat ourselves up for our thoughts and desires). It's also true that I no longer feel a spark for her, not the other way around, so it isn't something I can blame her for entirely (although she did quite a few things to cause the loss of that spark). As you mention, she is also the mother of my child and that is important to me. You're also right that I really don't want to be seen as the bad guy. If we separated, for sure I would lose my in-laws and many friends; that's just inevitable.

I don't want to chase after some hedonistic lifestyle or try to regain my lost youth. I am a middle class university-educated suburban father and I am not looking to go out drinking every night or anything like that. There are deep problems in my marriage (and other aspects of my life), and I really don't feel like my wife is allowing me to be myself. I get that she's worried I will cheat on her or leave her. I think she also sees my weight loss and the additional muscle I've built as a threat because people have complimented me on my appearance and women have started to notice me. We may end up going our separate ways, but I am NOT going to cheat, despite the fact that other women have caught my eye. I am not going to leave her for someone else either (although going our separate ways and eventually hooking up with someone else is a definite possibility). Her bossing, controlling and manipulative behaviour and the constant anger and negativity are getting me down and have to stop. I also cannot stand the massive screaming meltdowns with her and my daughter. For now, I guess I am willing to try to work on things, but there are certain things I need as non-negotiables in order to have a decent life. One thing that is non-negotiable is a social life, although I would be careful to ensure that I spend quality time with my wife as well and try to find some mutual interests. Thank you (and others) for confirming that there is nothing wrong with me wanting to go out and have a good time. Even the female friend I have a bit of a crush on has commented that I always behave myself when I go out and never do anything to cheat on my wife or anything like that (she knows about some of my struggles with my wife).

[bananatree]

@Marriage_Ambivalence The other issue in this dynamic is the conflict with your wife and daughter.  This is common among moms and teen girls, but can be fixed with some family counseling.  I believe that should be part of your "agreement." It seems like the 3 of you could stand to do some sessions together to get a handle on the gestalt of the family system that's clearly out of whack.  But can be fixed with help! It seems like all of you have needs that are not being met by the others, but the good news is that needs can get met as soon as defenses get brought down, communication is opened up and insecurities are addressed.

I feel like you are Rapunzel in the Tower right now. She's afraid you'll cheat, so her answer is to keep you locked away.  People don't cheat on their spouses because they have access to humans to cheat with. And anyway, there is nothing wrong with a little wandering eye after many, many years of marriage.  She could even choose to interpret that as cute and wish you fun in your innocent flirtations at the bar.  

But the irony is that she will only lose you if she imprisons you, not if she lets you live your life on your own apparently highly moral grounds. 

[emprosnet7]

@Marriage_Ambivalence I think that you are confusing two issues. Mother and daughter fighting is a different subject. They have a love-hate relationship and it is probably a way for them to take the steam out. With you the things are different and as long as you put up with it, it is going to continue. The only way out is escape the prison.

[Marriage_Ambivalence]

On 3/28/2021 at 5:56 AM, emprosnet7 said:

@Marriage_Ambivalence I think that you are confusing two issues. Mother and daughter fighting is a different subject. They have a love-hate relationship and it is probably a way for them to take the steam out. With you the things are different and as long as you put up with it, it is going to continue. The only way out is escape the prison.

Very true. They are two separate issues, but both my marriage and my family dynamic are incredibly dissatisfying to me. Both relate to the bossy and controlling nature of my wife. I am also having a difficult time at home because I work from home at the moment, and I feel like I can hardly get a break from the nonsense. My wife and I almost separated yet again last week, but we are back to trying to work things out. I am a bit annoyed with myself for not having the courage to separate, but I am going to put my foot down and insist on some non-negotiables that I need in order to have something resembling a half-decent marriage and family life.