Why don't more women speak up for themselves?

[d0nnivain]

I am a woman but listening to this woman talk about the inappropriate things Gov. Cuomo allegedly said to her, I really don't understand.  I have said no, that's not appropriate or outright stop to male bosses when they veered toward inappropriate conversations.  

Once I had a boss literally grab my butt.  I turned around & slapped him across the face.  When he got mad I said, "I thought were were doing inappropriate touching.  You grabbed my a$$.  I slapped your face.  What's the problem?"   He never touched me again & gave me great assignments thereafter.  It wasn't a quid pro quo.  I simply earned his respect.  

So if this woman had enough clout to get the job in the governor's office, why didn't she have enough fortitude to just tell him to stop?  If he retaliated her she'd have a better claim and she wouldn't look so weak & meek.  Women like her make me nuts.  

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

[Ruby Slippers]

At my high school job, a coworker grabbed my butt. I was 16 and he was 18. I told the boss, and he essentially high-fived the guy. I could have quit, but there weren't a lot of great jobs in my town, and the other girls told me all the bosses (almost all men at the time) were like that. 

Once all these stories started coming out, I heard variations of the same story over and over from every woman I know. My mom was a waitress and the restaurant owner propositioned her repeatedly for sex. She lived in a small town with few employment options, same creeps everywhere. 

Thank goodness the tide is beginning to turn. 

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

I turned around & slapped him across the face.  they can spot the weak.    

I don't think smacking someone is a good way to handle it. I also disagree that it mostly happens to "the weak".

It's easy to armchair quarterback a situation. But who knows what the confusing situation was at the time?

 

[Taramere]

8 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Once I had a boss literally grab my butt.  I turned around & slapped him across the face.  When he got mad I said, "I thought were were doing inappropriate touching.  You grabbed my a$$.  I slapped your face.  What's the problem?"   He never touched me again & gave me great assignments thereafter.  It wasn't a quid pro quo.  I simply earned his respect.  

 

What if your boss had reacted to you slapping him by firing you and throwing an assault charge into the bargain?  What if he'd claimed that he'd accidentally brushed by you, that you'd misconstrued it as deliberate?  You were lucky that it went the way it did.  It could easily have gone very badly for you. 

There's a clear power imbalance between a male boss and a female employee.  When you're hired to do a job, you should be permitted to focus on doing that job as well as you can.  If you're having to put time and effort (not to mention your job on the line) by demonstrating your skills in fending off sexist remarks and behaviour, you are being treated very poorly.  

I wouldn't be traumatised by somebody grabbing my backside.  The really difficult, stressful thing is not the physical act or the insulting words.  It's that another person in a position of power over you is demonstrating that they think nothing of abusing that power.  Earning respect in your workplace ought to have been a matter of how well you did your job - not how much the boss respected you for slapping him when he grabbed your backside.  Is his message that if you had simply frozen and done nothing, you wouldn't have been given better assignments? 

What kind of a guy judges a woman's competence and ability to handle herself in the workplace by how she reacts to a butt grab?  I think a lot of us probably know, because we've worked in environments like that at some point.  The kind of boss who does that is the kind of boss prevailing over a workplace that takes pride in its toxicity and unpleasant working conditions because they like to see themselves prevailing in some sort of survival of the fittest environment.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Taramere

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Why is this so hard? 

Because in many situations, it comes down to “he said, she said”. He’s the boss. He’s (often) deemed more valuable to the company, and harder to replace. She’s more disposable - and if she’s seen as “troublesome” (someone who speaks out) many workplaces would be glad to find a reason to be rid of her. 
 

I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been sexually harassed in the workplace - this despite progressive legislation, good policies (that I helped write!) and good people overseeing the committees that handle complaints, etc. 

[Angelle]

I have dealt with this at home, when it came to my sister's boyfriend (now husband). I was punished for using my voice, and not getting over it, refusing to be around him (even as he did it more than once). I think a lot of us have been on the receiving end of this sort of thing, in all kinds of situations/areas, not just work. 

My mother was sexually harassed by one of her bosses. She needed her job, and she was not weak - far from it. 

[Tamfana]

But you didn't "speak" up.  You hit him.  

It wouldn't occur to me to hit someone.  Get away from him? yes.  But not violence.  I would fail his test- happily. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Tamfana

[Alpacalia]

There is no simple answer.

Being alienated or fired, for example, are two factors that come to mind.

There's also victim blaming.

Do you recall the Me Too movement? The Me Too movement drew between (roughly) 6 and 34 million Twitter users who claimed to have seen someone they followed on social media reveal their own personal experience.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Alpaca

[d0nnivain]

Because times are changing through things like the #MeToo movement, which was on going last summer when this woman felt coerced by the Governor, that should have given her the strength to speak up.  

My example of resorting to violence wasn't a great example & I don't recommend most women react that way but you also have to look at it logically.  Who is really going to believe that an otherwise sane calm employee randomly hit the boss vs. that the woman reacted in self defense after being touched?  There were other factors that went into my story.  It had been a public night of the "boys" making sexist remarks in front of clients in a public place.  It had been so bad that other customers in the restaurant where we were offered to support me & act as witnesses to the horrid treatment that was occurring.  

Here on LS we always advocate that the victim in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship leave.  I believe as a society we need to teach women to speak  up & say no right then & there if they feel uncomfortable.  Silence makes guys think the conduct is welcome.  It's not that hard to shut it down. 

[Prudence V]

4 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

It's not that hard to shut it down. 

My own lived experience says, sometimes it is. 

[ShyViolet]

12 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

 

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

Ummm, because in these situations the predator is in a position of POWER over the other person.  The boss has the ability to fire you.  A woman who is being harassed by her boss also doesn't know if she might lose her job.  Some people can't afford to lose their job and can't afford to do something crazy like talk back to their boss and risk it all.  You're acting like it's so easy and that's not fair or realistic at all.  And it's not cool to blame the victim.

[Prudence V]

11 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

I believe as a society we need to teach women to speak  up & say no right then & there if they feel uncomfortable.

More importantly, as a society we need to teach men not to place women in uncomfortable positions like that. 

[Tamfana]

One silver lining to the law firm cultures of the 80's and 90's when I was a baby lawyer, an associate in male-run civil litigation firms (super competitive, kind of neanderthal-ish culture anyway, heh. Lots of chest beating.), one of the results of the ass-grabbing, get the coffee, "girls" stuff was that women left to start their own firms.  Where I lived several became premier firms.  That did a lot to shift power in the profession because wealth came with the independence.  THAT is what's pissing off the powers that were.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by Tamfana

[ShyViolet]

12 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

My example of resorting to violence wasn't a great example & I don't recommend most women react that way but you also have to look at it logically.  Who is really going to believe that an otherwise sane calm employee randomly hit the boss vs. that the woman reacted in self defense after being touched? 

Yeah, it wasn't a great example at all.  In most jobs, if you slapped your boss you would be fired so fast it would make your head spin.  Sexual harassment or not.  

If it was so "easy" to fend off sexual harassment, don't you think women would have been doing that for centuries?  Don't you think we as a society would have figured that out by now?  You clearly aren't aware of the power dynamic at play in sexual harassment situations.

[Alpacalia]

After an associate made a pass at me, I resigned my work of many years. This was my ode. 👍

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqAJLh9wuZ0

[Tamfana]

And we shouldn't have to.  It's a stupid irrelevant power game.

[d0nnivain]

Just now, Prudence V said:

My own lived experience says, sometimes it is. 

My point is that we have to make it easier then.  You used the word "lived" past tense -- years ago in another time.  Here . . .2020 forward with the #MeToo Movement how do we make it so that the majority of women no longer hesitate to speak up?  How do we empower them?  

The woman at the heart of the Cuomo controversy is 25 years old.  She was born no earlier than 1995.  Green v. McDonald Douglas the 1st & arguably leading sexual discrimination case was decided in 1973, 22 years before she was born.  How come in 2 generations (a generation being defined as 20 years) this woman still claimed she was powerless?  

This really makes me scratch my head.  Women have to speak up!  The law supplies consequences.  Hold bad actors' feet to the fire.  

I'm not trying to blame the victim.  I am trying to empower women.  Yes it would be better if the bad actors didn't behave badly but that is about as effective as wishing criminals wouldn't commit crimes.  We certainly don't tell crime victims to remain silent.  

[Prudence V]

8 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

How do we empower them?  

By making it harder for men to do that stuff in the first place. Why focus on women’s response after men have already done the deed? That’s like focusing on cleaning up plastics pollution rather than cutting down on producing the plastics that pollute. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Prudence V
Typo

[Prudence V]

9 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

You used the word "lived" past tense

Adjective. Lived experience. Like coloured hair. I coloured my hair in the past, but it’s still blue. 

[d0nnivain]

2 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

By making it harder for men to do that stuff in the first place. Why focus on women’s response after men have already done the deed? That’s like focusing on cleaning up plastics pollution rather than cutting down on producing the plastics that pollute. 

The legal consequences aren't apparently making it harder because these women aren't contributing to the effort by speaking up. 

[elaine567]

35 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

Ummm, because in these situations the predator is in a position of POWER over the other person.

That is how it tends to work, even in 2021.
"Men" still hold a lot of power.
And they often don't see much wrong in using that power to sexually harass and assault women.
Women are seen as fair game.
Despite #Metoo I don't see it getting much better.
Young women/girls are still being harassed and abused by young men/boys in huge numbers...
We go on about the 70s 80s as if it all happened then... but  it seems to me it is not as if the young adult generations here today and coming up have learned to do things any differently.

[Ruby Slippers]

4 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm not trying to blame the victim. 

That's what it sounds like to me. You said predators can spot the weak. There's a clear fallacy in this argument, because your boss spotted you, even though you say you're the exception and not weak.

The guy who grabbed my butt at my high school job snuck up on me from behind while I was bent over cleaning and then ran away when I spun around to confront him. If he hadn't, I might have punched him in the face. Though I didn't retaliate against him with anything more than a report to the manager, within a year I was promoted to assistant manager and was his boss - anything but weak. (The old manager left and we got a better one - still a weirdo, but not in a sexual way.)

While I'm very strong and opinionated, I don't even feel comfortable calling out my boss on the rare occasions he's being a nitpicky, critical control freak. Why? Because my job, my salary, my performance review, and my entire atmosphere at work hinges upon him viewing me in a positive light. If he sees me as any kind of troublemaker, things will get harder for me at work and my job could even be in jeopardy. Bosses are essentially dictators. Men in high positions have the most protection.

[]

Edited March 5, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Off topic

[ShyViolet]

1 hour ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm not trying to blame the victim. 

Coulda fooled. me.  That's exactly what it sounds like you are doing.  Putting the onus on women to stop this from happening.  You used the word "weak" more than once.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, Prudence V said:

By making it harder for men to do that stuff in the first place. Why focus on women’s response after men have already done the deed?

I was going to say something similar. I suspect older generations have had to deal with more than younger generations will. The change happens when men feel ashamed or embarrassed by their actions instead of bragging about it to the guys. A similar change happened with drinking and driving. Back in the day it was extremely common, but as views shifted, it got to the point, at least where I live, where people would mock and shame people that went out for drinks and were planning on driving home. Being shunned by your peers for unacceptable behavior is a powerful force.

[d0nnivain]

I am not blaming her or any other woman because some man decided to target them.  I am upset because in the moment the women didn't say Stop!, No! or get up & leave.  Coming forward 6 months after the fact is not enough, IMO. 

Clearly many people disagree.