Why don't more women speak up for themselves?

[Taramere]

3 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

My point is that we have to make it easier then.  You used the word "lived" past tense -- years ago in another time.  Here . . .2020 forward with the #MeToo Movement how do we make it so that the majority of women no longer hesitate to speak up?  How do we empower them?  

 

Looking back to when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I actually found it extremely easy to speak up - and often did.  I was doing a lot of temping back then (before I went to university) and would often be sent to places where the sexual harassment was blatant and crude.  I was seen as "posh" (even though I'm not) and the way I'd react to sexual harassment was often a source of amusement to female employees as well as males.  Like..."the posh girl's angry because she's being put in her place."  The people most likely to be sympathetic tended to be older men and men in more professional roles.  There were times when the agency would call me and tell me I wasn't wanted back at a job, after I'd stood up for myself against harassment.  It was never a surprise.  You'd see from the reactions that they thought I was being uppity/thinking I was better than them for sticking up for myself.  Obviously even then that was illegal, harassment etc - but people banked on there being a very low likelihood of some temp trying to raise an action about a job she'd been in for less than a week.  It was so rife, that you'd just never have been done raising complaints.

As far as supporting other women goes, I think that's about keeping an eye on what's going on - and if you see a woman being subjected to any treatment that you think she might be uncomfortable with, finding an excuse to remove her from the situation so that you can then have a chat with her and give her the message that if she's uncomfortable about anything that's going on, you'll support her and back her up.  A woman did that for me years ago at a point when I really did need somebody on my side, and I've never forgotten it.  I didn't actually need her to do anything further - I dealt with the situation myself - but the fact that she let me know that she'd noticed what was going on, didn't think it was okay and would back me up if I needed her gave me the confidence and push I needed to address the situation.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Taramere

[Alpacalia]

I don't get the impression, d0nnivan, that your goal was to blame women. Many women are afraid of coming forward, some don't come forward until years later.

[Prudence V]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Being shunned by your peers for unacceptable behavior is a powerful force.

I’ve seen this with my son and his friends. They were raised in a context that had no tolerance for that kind of behaviour and so they take no prisoners when they see other guys trying it on. But sadly, they’re not (yet) in the majority. 

[Piddy]

On 3/4/2021 at 8:49 PM, d0nnivain said:

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

First, sexual harassment is against the law.  It's a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Source: The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.  So there's that. 

Men who sexually harass women are bullies and unfortunately bullies only stop when they are confronted.  Why it's so hard though is like many have said.  They can't afford to lose their job if they speak up.  Not every business has an HR department.

My wife was sexually harassed back in the early 80's.  She went to her boss and he went to the offenders boss and it was taken care of.  But we worked for the largest corporation in the country then and they had a code of conduct that was strictly enforced.  But I realize that isn't the case everywhere.

This behavior only stops if there's consequences for the predators.  Someone has to be the first to speak up.  In the Cuomo case that would be extra tough knowing he is the most powerful person in the State and it would be public.

We all remember Anita Hill.  What she went thru was terrible.  In many cases it does take a ton of courage to speak out.  There is safety in numbers though, so I can't blame someone for not wanting to be the first.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Piddy

[QuietRiot]

On 3/5/2021 at 12:02 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

At my high school job, a coworker grabbed my butt. I was 16 and he was 18. I told the boss, and he essentially high-fived the guy. I could have quit, but there weren't a lot of great jobs in my town, and the other girls told me all the bosses (almost all men at the time) were like that. 

Once all these stories started coming out, I heard variations of the same story over and over from every woman I know. My mom was a waitress and the restaurant owner propositioned her repeatedly for sex. She lived in a small town with few employment options, same creeps everywhere. 

Thank goodness the tide is beginning to turn. 

So....does the Human Resource department sit you through some videos regarding this kind of thing when you're hired? Do they not tell you about the "Report it now, or later" choice (Answer: Report now). 

[quote] Not every business has an HR department.[/quote]

Hm, yeah, that is a good point. There is that. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by QuietRiot

[QuietRiot]

I recall a woman that is in the video game industry, an industry dominated by males. Although, nothing of what occurred at work would be thought of as sexual harassment, but you could say a few guys were seriously crushing on her...and as a result..they'd ask questions about her dating life, which she thought was too personal. Also, a lot of them worked walking distance from work, so her male colleagues would kind of hang out until she would show up and walk with her to work. Things like that that made her uncomfortable, but nothing like ass grabbing or sexual comments. 

[NuevoYorko]

On 3/5/2021 at 4:15 AM, Prudence V said:

Because in many situations, it comes down to “he said, she said”. He’s the boss. He’s (often) deemed more valuable to the company, and harder to replace. She’s more disposable - and if she’s seen as “troublesome” (someone who speaks out) many workplaces would be glad to find a reason to be rid of her. 
 

 

Or, if she was wearing a tight sweater or something.  She was asking for it.

[Ruby Slippers]

10 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Or, if she was wearing a tight sweater or something.  She was asking for it.

My boss at that high school job REQUIRED the girls to wear shorts or skirts. The boys could wear pants, but we were only allowed to wear shorts or skirts. The assistant manager later told me that the manager hired all the girls based on our looks and frequently made gross comments to other male employees about my (tennis) legs. This was a greasy old 50-something guy and I was 16 🤮

Edited March 7, 2021 by Ruby Slippers

[Uruktopi]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

Or, if she was wearing a tight sweater or something.  She was asking for it.

An effort of probably underserved politness makes me decline to give the answer you are asking for with your comment.

[Angelle]

47 minutes ago, Uruktopi said:

An effort of probably underserved politness makes me decline to give the answer you are asking for with your comment.

Why would politeness be undeserved? We always get to hear that the woman was asking for it, when she's groped, or assaulted. More effort is put into making her the guilty party, instead of the perpetrator.

[Uruktopi]

5 minutes ago, Angelle said:

Why would politeness be undeserved? We always get to hear that the woman was asking for it, when she's groped, or assaulted. More effort is put into making her the guilty party, instead of the perpetrator.

Sorry if my poor English was not enough to make me understood. I agree with you and NOT at all with NuevoYorko.

What I tried to say is that the expression "She was asking for it" (as if she were the guilty one when she is not) is used to justify the perpetrator. 

And that is the line of thinking (the one behind  "She was asking for it") what don´t deserve my politness.

Though this, I will avoid to say what is in my mind about, keeping respect to others.

I hope this is now clear enough.

[Angelle]

3 minutes ago, Uruktopi said:

Sorry if my poor English was not enough to make me understood. I agree with you and NOT at all with NuevoYorko.

What I tried to say is that the expression "She was asking for it" (as if she were the guilty one when she is not) is used to justify the perpetrator. 

And that is the line of thinking (the one behind  "She was asking for it") what don´t deserve my politness.

Though this, I will avoid to say what is in my mind about, keeping respect to others.

I hope this is now clear enough.

Okay, well then you're agreeing with NuevoYorko, too. They were pointing out that it happens all the time. They weren't making excuses.

[Uruktopi]

6 minutes ago, Angelle said:

Okay, well then you're agreeing with NuevoYorko, too. They were pointing out that it happens all the time. They weren't making excuses.

It sems I took it out of the dialog context and had a gut reaction. 

 I stand corrected.

Thanks to you. And my appologies to NuevoYorko.

 

[dramafreezone]

On 3/4/2021 at 5:49 PM, d0nnivain said:

I am a woman but listening to this woman talk about the inappropriate things Gov. Cuomo allegedly said to her, I really don't understand.  I have said no, that's not appropriate or outright stop to male bosses when they veered toward inappropriate conversations.  

Once I had a boss literally grab my butt.  I turned around & slapped him across the face.  When he got mad I said, "I thought were were doing inappropriate touching.  You grabbed my a$$.  I slapped your face.  What's the problem?"   He never touched me again & gave me great assignments thereafter.  It wasn't a quid pro quo.  I simply earned his respect.  

So if this woman had enough clout to get the job in the governor's office, why didn't she have enough fortitude to just tell him to stop?  If he retaliated her she'd have a better claim and she wouldn't look so weak & meek.  Women like her make me nuts.  

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

From hearing victims it seems that there's a fear that they'll be called liars, or a tease, or just out to win a lawsuit.  So they keep it to themselves.

[SaraSays]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:49 AM, d0nnivain said:

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

Could  you back this up with stat's,  showing a correlation between a reduction in the number of victims of s3xual attacks if we say something to our abusers? Based on all the instances I know of directly, experiences I know of indirectly, and experiences through volunteering, saying something didn't bring about anything observable as different from those who stayed quiet, or those who ran and raised the alarm, other than we've observed a greater risk for women who speak out of being gossiped about, of being managed out, of being subject to further abuse and called a troublemaker, of losing their jobs because of spurious claims them made in performance reviews).

It's incredibly damaging for those of us who've been victims of male on female violence and verbal abuse, and who support victims of such men, to see words like "weak" thrown around. You're blaming women for the crimes and miscondict of men. Take your fight to the men, not the victims, who are largely unable to control their response to being abused, as it's a physiological response.

[SaraSays]

On 3/5/2021 at 3:22 PM, d0nnivain said:

Because times are changing through things like the #MeToo movement, which was on going last summer when this woman felt coerced by the Governor, that should have given her the strength to speak up.  

Cruel comment. A victim of male on female abuse of any kind has a physiological response to the abuse, that is beyond her control. She may also need to hold on to the job for economic reasons, and such.

Metoo has changed nothing at all in day-to-day life for ordinary women, as could have been predicted, since it was just an hashtag and chatter online, nothing tangible in law. Ask a cleaner what she thinks about it. Ask women like me, stuck in a work environment with largely just men, what we think about it. Ask production assistants,  ask new models, ask women on building sites, ask non-senior women in investment banking, if they believe anything has changed.

[SaraSays]

Instances of male on female abuse of all kinds have risen in the voluntary org's I support. Specifically pertaining to the workplace: 

• the safeguarding possible in the workplace is gone for many women, who are now being forced to work from home, where abuse (home or workplace) can be hidden from view more easily, as people don't see us walking around, don't chat with us in the lift, don't see or hear how we're spoken to, don't have any means of intervening or even witnessing when we're being mistreated
• there can be little means of escape from a workplace abuser for a woman working from home, as we are expected to show video at home and chat to our work abuser from our homes - our home no longer feels like a sanctuary, and is no longer a barrier
• women can be subject to increasingly punitive measures for resisting and speaking out against men who abuse women, as "you're lucky you still have a job, when many don't, and there are more job losses to come, so be careful"
• since people see less and less of us in the full context of their workday, it's easy for us to be managed out as an act of retaliation when we speak out about male on female mistreatment, pay disparities, unfair advantages awarded to men, as people don't have to face us, don't have to sit amongst us, don't have to see the affect the mistreatment is having on us, don't have to contemplate how small our footprint becomes when we're chipped away at daily by abusers and end up a shadow of our former selves

[Prudence V]

1 hour ago, SaraSays said:

we are expected to show video at home

I don’t know where you’re based, but this is explicitly *not* a requirement in many places. Partly because not everyone has the luxury of good bandwidth (or can afford the data costs) associated with video, but also because of recognition of cultural differences. I cannot ask my students to turn their cameras on during a synchronous teaching session and nor can my boss ask me to turn on my camera when we meet, because none of us can make assumptions about the context others are participating from. 
 

And while research exists to show that women have overwhelmingly borne the brunt of home schooling / domestic labour during working from home, etc, there are other aspects that are not being reported, such as not getting harassed on public transport, not having to undertake long commutes / walking to and from workplaces in the dark (early mornings, evenings) especially in winter where daylight hours are short, etc. 

[Angelle]

2 hours ago, SaraSays said:

Have you ever volunteered to support female victims of male violence? Ever looked into how many women are known to have been killed or violently attacked by men (mindful most is not reported as legal services are inadequate for dealing with male perpetuated volence against women)? Do you know the stat's pertaining to the danger men pose to us in day-to-day life, either through harassment, kidnapping, mvrder, s3xual violence, mugging, workplace bullying, online threats of death of s3xual abuse?

We don't have a choice about living in fear - it's the reality of living within a patriarchal world as women, amongst men who wannt to do us harm, and don't wish for us to be treated as equal humans deserving of dignity, respect and safety.

We're harmed daily through direct acts perpetuated by men against us, and men doing nothing to help at all because the status quo is so weighted in their favour.

I know, I was almost killed by a man, when I was little. Does this mean that we shouldn't change or create new laws, at all? Not ever? 

I'm in the wrong thread, but the question still applies. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Angelle

[Angelle]

2 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

What I don't get is with regular dating, and it's just about a guy trying to land a date with a woman, she flakes or gives mixed signals as opposed to being honest.  Their responses are they are afraid of being honest about their lack of interest because of they fear that he may actually get violent.

I'm like you can't really be afraid of something that is very not likely to happen? I mean, how can you live your life in fear?

You wouldn't be asking that, if you'd been on the receiving end of it. Have you seen the statistics, when it comes to women who are killed by their partners?

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

I'm like you can't really be afraid of something that is very not likely to happen? I mean, how can you live your life in fear?

Women live in fear as women are physically weak compared to men, and they know that should a man, even a weak and puny man, decide to use his strength against her,  she hasn't a hope in hell.
It is why women will back down, why they try to pacify, why they submit, why they resort to deviousness and manipulation to get their own way etc.
All because in a fair physical fight, never-mind a dirty one, they know they will lose, lose badly and may even lose their own life...

[Prudence V]

9 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

What makes you think both aren't happening equally?

Living in the world, and seeing.

[Prudence V]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/10/almost-all-young-women-in-the-uk-have-been-sexually-harassed-survey-finds

97% of women 18-24 in the U.K. have been sexually harassed, according to this study. 

[FMW]

On 3/9/2021 at 6:11 AM, QuietRiot said:

I'm like you can't really be afraid of something that is very not likely to happen? I mean, how can you live your life in fear?

In the past three weeks in my city it has happened twice that former partners have murdered women and their children following a breakup.  That's two women and 4 children dead.

in my little world, my friends, my family, no - we haven't experienced that.  But it clearly does happen.  We can make all the judgments we want on how others react (or don't react) to things, but as the old saying goes "walk a mile in their shoes".  We don't all have the same experiences that shape us, we don't all have the same journey.  

[pepperbird2]

When my dad was a prof., he helped set up a. program for working mothers so they could access childcare while they attended night classes to earn their degree. He was also the prof. for their into and applied microbiology courses. They were all mature students, and there were a lot of discussions before and after classes about work, etc.

From they told him, a lot of them had minimum wage jobs that they really needed just to stay afloat. Many put up with sexual harassment on the job but felt like they couldn't say anything. If they made a fuss, they'd be replaced by one of the ten others who would gladly take the job because they needed it too.

My mom was a nurse and told me several times about how she was harassed, and back then, a lot of nurses would put up with it because doctors didn't listen to nurses. Mind you, the male nurses didn't get listened to either, and many of the doctors looked down on them for doing what they felt was women's work. (this was in the 60's)That may have changed- I don't know.