Ah, family gaslighters. so much fun. NOT!

[Watercolors]

So, it turns out, if one of your parents is a gaslighter, they actually choose your familial role for you when you're too young to live, too old to die (thank you, All Tvvins!). My sister got the golden child, I got the scapegoat, and our brother got the clown. A regular anti-Monty Pythons Flying Circus...of s***!

Anyway...my middle age memory loss kicked in and I accidentally revealed personal information to my aunt about something new I'm doing during a visit with my mother whose in memory care. My aunt's response, was indicative of my lifelong label - the scapegoat - as it was very demeaning and well, rude. This was during a phone call where I had her on speakerphone to talk to my mother. Instead of reacting, I just redirected and said, "I have to use the bathroom."

I left my mother's room for a few minutes. When I came back into my mother's room, she was still talking to her sister since she didn't know how to use my cellphone, so I asked my mom if she wanted to hang up the phone call and she did. So, I just ended the call. 😄

Meanwhile, back in December my BIL had asked me to sign up with his temp agency where he does IT so I did. Needless to say it didn't lead anywhere, so I left the temp agency. I warned my BIL that I was leaving and hoped he didn't take my departure too personally. Apparently, he must have, b/c since then, he's been really unfriendly towards me since, a year later. In hindsight, I should have passed on that offer to join his agency b/c I didn't want them to associate me with my BIL, precisely so that this wouldn't happen. Yet, here I am.  I don't think i owe my BIL yet another apology. The recruiters at his temp agency didn't do squat for me, so I told them to delete my profile video (which frankly is creepy that they record you making a statement that they claim to email to prospective 3rd party clients, as a way to get their temps interviews for contract work). There was no acrimony, and I didn't get "fired." Yet, my BIL is acting like I ruined his work reputation there, b/c I left the agency for not doing squat for me. Am I wrong here? 

[basil67]

Not enough info on whether you're in the wrong.   When you left the agency, what exactly did you say to them?   Did you tell them that they didn't do squat for you?

[Watercolors]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Not enough info on whether you're in the wrong.   When you left the agency, what exactly did you say to them?   Did you tell them that they didn't do squat for you?

When I left, I told them the truth: I wasn't comfortable with their interview methods (I asked them to delete my 3 minute video profile), and that I wasn't happy with being passed over for contract assignments that i was clearly qualified for, which were given to the younger temp candidates. I didn't mention my BIL at all. 

[basil67]

In that case, this fallout is on you.   They would have known of the connection between you and him and your words to the company got back to him and he would have regretted ever offering to help you.  Diplomacy is key if you wish to keep relationships in order.  An exit line of "I think we're not the right fit" or "I think I'll try other avenues" would have been a far more appropriate way for you to leave them.

 

[Watercolors]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

In that case, this fallout is on you.   They would have known of the connection between you and him and your words to the company got back to him and he would have regretted ever offering to help you.  Diplomacy is key if you wish to keep relationships in order.  An exit line of "I think we're not the right fit" or "I think I'll try other avenues" would have been a far more appropriate way for you to leave them.

 

Well, it doesn't excuse my BIL for holding a year-long grudge against me. I already apologized to him after I left his temp agency. He knew I didn't like temp agencies and he knew why. I warned him before i joined, that it may not go well. So, no, I disagree with you that the fallout is entirely on me. I am not responsible for my BIL in any way, shape, or form. While I know how diplomacy works, I also know that it was my right as an employee to be honest and upfront b/c I was being penalized for being over 40. Which is illegal, FYI, in the U.S. "ageism" is illegal. 

[LivingWaterPlease]

basil's response to your post seemed appropriate to me, W/Cs. In a job situation where a relative or close friend is involved sometimes it makes sense to tread carefully...

[Watercolors]

15 minutes ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

basil's response to your post seemed appropriate to me, W/Cs. In a job situation where a relative or close friend is involved sometimes it makes sense to tread carefully...

It's not. 

[Miss Spider]

Parents are the best manipulators. Good manipulation takes understanding the subject, getting in there and knowing how they tick. Who else knows us better than our parents?

[Watercolors]

7 minutes ago, Shortskirtslonglashes said:

Parents are the best manipulators. Good manipulation takes understanding the subject, getting in there and knowing how they tick. Who else knows us better than our parents?

Thank you for seeing the whole picture here. Up until I briefly was employed by my BIL's temp agency, he and I always got along great. And he knew how much I hated temp agencies and had been struggling. Even when I warned him ahead of time, "what if it doesn't work out for me there and I leave?" will he hold that against me and he'd said he wouldn't. But clearly he's holding it against me. 

My mother's dementia has systematically removed her personality so she's no longer critical of me like she was growing up. She's very pleasant to be around because dementia has erased her nearly completely. My aunt is a horrible person for being dismissive and insulting me, and then texting my sister afterward to tell her that i was rude to her, when she was the one who insulted me on the speakerphone. My mother wasn't even aware b/c she doesn't know who we even are anymore. So, my aunt took that moment to be a real B---- to me, then text my sister afterward that *I* was horrible to her, which was a total lie. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Watercolors said:

Well, it doesn't excuse my BIL for holding a year-long grudge against me. I already apologized to him after I left his temp agency. He knew I didn't like temp agencies and he knew why. I warned him before i joined, that it may not go well. So, no, I disagree with you that the fallout is entirely on me. I am not responsible for my BIL in any way, shape, or form. While I know how diplomacy works, I also know that it was my right as an employee to be honest and upfront b/c I was being penalized for being over 40. Which is illegal, FYI, in the U.S. "ageism" is illegal. 

When he imagined it "not going well", I expect he didn't anticipate that you would say what you did.  I wouldn't even have said that even if I didn't have family working there.   Also, you don't know that the reason you weren't being put forward was because of your age.  It could well have been that you were showing more attitude than they liked.  

I'm not sure how the suggestion of you being responsible for your BIL got into this.  I'm sure he's managing quite well without you.  

[Watercolors]

17 minutes ago, basil67 said:

When he imagined it "not going well", I expect he didn't anticipate that you would say what you did.  I wouldn't even have said that even if I didn't have family working there.   Also, you don't know that the reason you weren't being put forward was because of your age.  It could well have been that you were showing more attitude than they liked.  

I'm not sure how the suggestion of you being responsible for your BIL got into this.  I'm sure he's managing quite well without you.  

No, you want me to be responsible for my BIL's feelings which I'm not responsible for, so you added that suggestion yourself. 

[basil67]

Your actions upset him.  But he's responsible for his own feelings about what happened.

Edited March 8, 2021 by basil67

[d0nnivain]

No you are not wrong.  We were talking about family roles in my support group a while back.  It was eye opening.  Those early labels / roles that get thrust upon us early can color other aspects of our lives if we let them.  Since you understand the label you were saddled with & have enough sense to identify it when you see it playing out, you are ahead of the curve.  Your label as "scapegoat" is causing you to feel your BILs "unfriendliness" more powerfully then if he was a stranger or if you had an empower label like "golden child"  My group used the word hero so I'm assuming it's a similar role.  Remember you didn't leave because you decided you didn't like your BIL or because you wanted to hurt him.  You left because the agency wasn't delivering for you, which is a valid reason to leave.  All I can think is perhaps the BIL is avoiding you because you saw the flaws in his company or your departure is making him think about problems that were buried. His superiors may have given him grief for your valid criticisms but it's not your fault they engaged in age discrimination.   Don't assume his mood is about you alone.  Just act normal to him & let him be in whatever snit he wants.  

 

[primer]

Are you sure you aren't a part of my family? LOL

I have a "toxic" aunt that accuses me of things I never did. I no longer talk to her. Before the accusations, I knew she was toxic because of the nosey questions she would ask me about my immediate family. She wanted dirt.

My immediate family thinks I am a terrible person. Nothing I do is right. Going to college was wrong, living where I do was wrong, quitting a job I hated was wrong. The list goes on. Yet I am living independently and contribute to society. 

Continue doing what is best for you. If you were not happy with the temp agency, you did the right thing by leaving.

 

 

 

 

[Watercolors]

3 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

No you are not wrong.  We were talking about family roles in my support group a while back.  It was eye opening.  Those early labels / roles that get thrust upon us early can color other aspects of our lives if we let them.  Since you understand the label you were saddled with & have enough sense to identify it when you see it playing out, you are ahead of the curve.  Your label as "scapegoat" is causing you to feel your BILs "unfriendliness" more powerfully then if he was a stranger or if you had an empower label like "golden child"  My group used the word hero so I'm assuming it's a similar role.  Remember you didn't leave because you decided you didn't like your BIL or because you wanted to hurt him.  You left because the agency wasn't delivering for you, which is a valid reason to leave.  All I can think is perhaps the BIL is avoiding you because you saw the flaws in his company or your departure is making him think about problems that were buried. His superiors may have given him grief for your valid criticisms but it's not your fault they engaged in age discrimination.   Don't assume his mood is about you alone.  Just act normal to him & let him be in whatever snit he wants.  

 

Thank you. I didn't think I was in the wrong, either. I agree. The labels we're given as children are stuck to us for the rest of our lives, that our family members use to try to control and manipulate us by. It's awful. 

Yes, I definitely understand my "scapegoat" label well and can definitely sense when other people use it against me, like with my BIL's "unfriendliness" towards me. 

Exactly. I didn't leave the temp agency bc/ I don't like my BIL or because I wanted to hurt him professionally. I left b/c the manager there was allowing his 20-year old recruiters to only place 20-30 something temporary candidates in their open/available contract roles. For instance, I have a paralegal certificate and applied for a paralegal role. The recruiter I contacted, literally told me that I was not qualified for the available temp-to-hire paralegal role (that only required the certificate which I have). So, when I learned through my BIL that a 23 year old temp with NO paralegal certificate got that role, I was upset. Another example, another recruiter called me to tell me she had (without my permission) submitted me for a role where I would be the only sight-person in a blind office of 25 employees (a nonprofit org for blind people). That was also a shocker. I have no problem working with blind people, but was not happy with the way the recruiter just tried to place me in a role without even first giving me the option to choose it. 

Everyone knows temp agencies are the last resort for the unemployed and that you're at the whim of the recruiters' egos and agendas. This temp agency would force you to go into an office and record a video preview of you speaking about your resume's highlights. I was 100% not comfortable doing that b/c god knows what those recruiters could do with those videos, you know? 

I agree with you that perhaps my BIL is avoiding me a year later (what a grudge holder), because I saw the flaws in his temp agency and that by leaving, exploited those problems that were conspicuously hidden in plain sight a la Edgar Allen Poe's story, "The Purloined Letter." My BIL used to own his own business and do a ton of consulting work, so he had taken this job that was beneath him, right as the pandemic hit, too. So, I assume he probably resents the fact that he's doing a job he's ten times overqualified for and getting paid a horrible salary to boot, while my sister makes three times more than he does, with her salary. He probably is projecting his dissatisfaction on to me (the nearest target being that I'm the family scapegoat he's known for 30 years), for my putting myself and my employment needs first, by leaving a temp agency he works at, that was committing a crime (ageism) which is: The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. An employment policy or practice that applies to everyone, regardless of age, can be illegal if it has a negative impact on applicants or employees age 40 or older and is not based on a reasonable factor other than age (RFOA).

Plus, I think it bothers him, since he too is over 50 years old so he's at risk of having ageism committed against him, which is why he stays at this horrible temp agency. 

Thank you. I first assumed his "mood" was about me alone. But after reading your post, I definitely believe his "mood" is tied to everything you wrote and what I think. I'm sure the recruiters and the temp agency manager questioned him about me after I "quit." Which he was embarrassed or resented or humiliated by -- but those feelings are on HIM. I didn't quit to tarnish his work reputation there at all. I quit b/c that temp agency's recruiters were 20 year old to 30 year olds were being ageist in every sense of the word. The fact that I have a strong personality doesn't help, but I have standards and when those aren't met by employers, I have every right to call them out for taking advantage of me. 

I will follow your advice and just act normal and not bring it up again, and let him be in his "snit" as long as he chooses to be. 

2 hours ago, primer said:

Are you sure you aren't a part of my family? LOL

I have a "toxic" aunt that accuses me of things I never did. I no longer talk to her. Before the accusations, I knew she was toxic because of the nosey questions she would ask me about my immediate family. She wanted dirt.

My immediate family thinks I am a terrible person. Nothing I do is right. Going to college was wrong, living where I do was wrong, quitting a job I hated was wrong. The list goes on. Yet I am living independently and contribute to society. 

Continue doing what is best for you. If you were not happy with the temp agency, you did the right thing by leaving.

 

 

 

 

RIGHT?!?! 

Sounds like your aunt and mine could be twin flames. And you're right about how your aunt baited you (the way my aunt baited me) with her toxic behavior disguised in the form of nosey questions, was just to get personal information on you, to be used against you -- the exact way that my toxic aunt and family members operate. 

You are not a terrible person either, primer. Don't buy into their conditioning of your self-worth. Everything you do is RIGHT for you, but wrong for them. That's what I tell myself all the time. Congrats on living independently and contributing to society. 

Thank you for acknowledging that my leaving the temp agency was right for ME (not right for my judgmental BIL and sister). 

Ironically, my aunt sent me an email this morning to continue her tirade. I wish I wouldn't have taken her stupid baited question when she asked me to update her on my life. Her email was a page long critique of how I don't make the right decisions and don't have any common sense. As though I need her permission to make my own life's choices. But I don't need anyone's permission to choose what I want to do with my life. 

I should have walked away from my immediate family a long time ago. But, how would I explain that to people I meet when forming friendships? "I don't talk to my family," is a pretty loaded statement and as you know, people are super duper judgmental. How would I get people to understand I walked away (which now I'm planning to do) for my own mental health sake? So that i can live my life away from their scrutiny? 

 

[d0nnivain]

Hang in there.  

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, d0nnivain said:

Hang in there.  

Thanks. I'm trying to. 

[MsJayne]

I don't think what you said when you left the agency was in any way disrespectful, they weren't delivering so why should you sugar coat your reason for leaving? As long as you stated your reason for leaving in a civilised manner they have nothing to be peeved about, on the contrary,  honest feedback can help to improve businesses. Your BIL has the craps because by telling you to sign on with his agency he was slotting himself into the Mr Helpful role, and you squashed this by speaking the truth about what happened, ie; you called out their bias and ageism. Him being cold towards you for a year is probably indicative of his wounded ego, maybe he saw himself as your saviour and thinks you've thrown away the golden opportunity he so magnanimously provided. If he's inclined to be a wally in that regard I'd just ignore him.  It's also good that you hung up on your aunt, maybe you should do more of that, because you can never hang up on rude people enough. Far too often people who've been victims of family dysfunction go pussyfooting around people who need to be told where to get off.    

[d0nnivain]

There is one other possibility. . .maybe BIL is miffed because you didn't come to him to complain & give him a shot at fixing it before you quit.  I'm not saying you were obligated to do that but it may be part of what is sticking in his craw.  

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, MsJayne said:

I don't think what you said when you left the agency was in any way disrespectful, they weren't delivering so why should you sugar coat your reason for leaving? As long as you stated your reason for leaving in a civilised manner they have nothing to be peeved about, on the contrary,  honest feedback can help to improve businesses. Your BIL has the craps because by telling you to sign on with his agency he was slotting himself into the Mr Helpful role, and you squashed this by speaking the truth about what happened, ie; you called out their bias and ageism. Him being cold towards you for a year is probably indicative of his wounded ego, maybe he saw himself as your saviour and thinks you've thrown away the golden opportunity he so magnanimously provided. If he's inclined to be a wally in that regard I'd just ignore him.  It's also good that you hung up on your aunt, maybe you should do more of that, because you can never hang up on rude people enough. Far too often people who've been victims of family dysfunction go pussyfooting around people who need to be told where to get off.    

 

1 hour ago, d0nnivain said:

There is one other possibility. . .maybe BIL is miffed because you didn't come to him to complain & give him a shot at fixing it before you quit.  I'm not saying you were obligated to do that but it may be part of what is sticking in his craw.  

@MsJayne and @d0nnivain you two are on to something!! It actually makes sense that my BIL saw my joining his temp agency as a way to slot himself there as the Hero, aka Mr Resource, aka Mr. Helpful and I totally squashed his career goals there, by speaking the truth to the agency manager that him allowing his recruiters to commit ageism was my reason for leaving.

See? This is why I come here. For insight after I ask other people for your opinions. Thank you ladies!! 

And in the past, if I did have a problem, I always went to my BIL because he is that type of guy: he loves to help people and so by not going to him first, I could easily see how he may also feel like I betrayed him, and in a way, sabotaged his career effort there at that crappy temp agency where he sits miserable, until this pandemic is over and he can find a more upper management job that he's used to and has had in the past. 

For now, as you two advised, I will just ignore him and his wally behavior and let him be in his snit until he either decides to talk to me about it. 

My aunt can go PFFT herself. You know? Who is she to tell me what to do? I felt liberated actually, hanging up on my aunt. It was symbolic of me rejecting my family scapegoat label as she and my mother are the two matriarchs of my family, whose opinion is sought after all the time and garners respect from my cousins and their spouses and children. I defied their toxic communication system by hanging up on her. It was my way to send them all a message that I am DONE with their baloney. I need to make asserting my boundaries with them a habit. Time for me to walk the talk I throw around here in other posters' forums about setting up and maintaining boundaries. I'd be a hypocrite not to follow my own advice. 

 

[Alpacalia]

My only hunch is that, while you were forthright about the reasons for your departure, I believe it is always preferable to leave on a positive note in most situations and turn criticisms into constructive feedback.

[Watercolors]

12 hours ago, Alpaca said:

My only hunch is that, while you were forthright about the reasons for your departure, I believe it is always preferable to leave on a positive note in most situations and turn criticisms into constructive feedback.

That may be true but it doesn't really apply to my situation as already explained. When I know a company is committing ageism and bias which is ILLEGAL, I would have left that temp agency the same way, even if my BIL doesn't work there.

1) It's a temp agency. Not a giant company.
2) It's committing ageism and bias against an employee and preventing that employee from employment as a result.
3) The agency manager ignored my concerns and did nothing to fix the situation with his recruiters' illegal recruiting methods.

It's as if you're justifying ageism and bias with your response. I just can't agree with you for doing that. If you're not over 45 and have never had age bias used against you to prevent you from employment, then you have no idea what it's like. No idea. What you're response is stating, is that I should have just left with not saying anything - all the while knowing that I couldn't find work because they were holding my age against me. 

Here's a question for you. Why didn't my BIL who wants to be Mr Helper, step in and speak up for me? [] Why didn't he help me with those age bias recruiters?! Or with the temp agency manager who is YOUNGER than my BIL? []
 

Edited March 9, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Rude

[Alpacalia]

So, I agree with you that ageism is wrong, and in this situation, you made the correct decision to leave after determining that this temp agency was not a good fit for you.