How to (must I? stop wishing for a friendship in the future

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

This is my second thread today (apologies) but it's something that's on my mind so I'd appreciate some input.

I know most exes don't end up being friends, and I'm not friends with most of my exes except for the very first one, and that took forever to happen.

However, I feel like despite the fact I am now quite accepting of the fact it was the best for both of us to separate (the brain still pulls its tricks once in a while, but I do understand the relationship was not good) I still find myself wishing for a friendship in the future. We are both in the second half of our thirties already, had only been together for four and a half months, briefly knew each other for a long time before that (but not really) and are sort of part of the same friends circle. I am most definitely not ready for a friendship now, I know that, a good indication is that I can't see myself dealing well with the fact she has found someone new, I'm not out of grief yet, but I still find myself wishing for a friendship to happen in the future.

Am I just kidding myself and am trying to hold on to some imaginary last straw? I know part of me definitely is. Or is it partly also a valid wish?

I go back and forth on this. Right now it feels like it's part of an unhealthy obsession. But I go through times when I feel this is really possible, and we could be friends in a relaxed manner. One thing I know is that before that can happen, I need to get her out of my head which I am pretty much failing at right now, writing this post.

Edited March 8, 2021 by StoryOfMyLifeYes

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

You know what, I'll write a response to myself (which doesn't mean I don't want your responses and experiences!) to set my head straight a bit.

Dude, you're in an obsessive loop. If you weren't you wouldn't be asking yourself this question at all. Do you ask about anyone else if you can be friends? Do you find yourself pondering whether acquaintances you find to be nice people can be close friends with you? No, it either happens or it doesn't. Yet here you are, going over the same question over and over again about this person, bargaining with yourself, being like "but we're grown up people! but we were only together for a short period of time!"

For starters, now is not the time to be asking that question because no matter what the future holds you cannot be friends now. The only reason you even wrote this thread is you secretly want someone to come and tell you "sure, you can be friends, why not" so you have something to hold onto. You need to let go and focus on your own self.

Secondly, she isn't asking herself that same question. As long as you are sitting there wishing for a friendship and trying to figure this out while she isn't (and she won't be), there's no basis for one because there is no eye level.

Thirdly, what kind of friendship do you want? I know what you want to say, you want you to support each other through rough times and celebrate each other's victories, confide into each other, you're imagining you two being special to each other in some way. You don't want a friendship mate, what you're imagining is a relationship without intimacy. Of course you are, because you're not over her, which brings me back to the point: it is pointless to ask the question now. Once it won't be pointless any longer (if ever) you will probably no longer care as much as you do now.

Why are you asking yourself this instead of cleaning up your room or doing the laundry, instead of doing anything at all? Because you feel like your well-being depends on the two of you being friends or not. But your life doesn't depend in this way on any other given friend. Again, you are not spending your time pondering this question hour after hour and day after day about anyone else. Stop kidding yourself. This is a trick you're trying to play on your mind so you can keep occupying yourself with her and all things her.

Edited March 8, 2021 by StoryOfMyLifeYes
grammar

[Gaeta]

Wow! good job at answering your own question.

Sometimes friendship is possible but years down the road when you've moved on, and sometimes it's never possible. A few years ago I dated a man for 5-6 months and no matter what I will never be able to be friends or even be friendly with him. If I came across him in a shopping mall I'd probably be rude to him, on the other end I was able to be friendly with an ex of 15 years together. Each situation is different. There is no one answer fits all. 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

1 minute ago, Gaeta said:

Wow! good job at answering your own question.

Sometimes friendship is possible but years down the road when you've moved on, and sometimes it's never possible. A few years ago I dated a man for 5-6 months and no matter what I will never be able to be friends or even be friendly with him. If I came across him in a shopping mall I'd probably be rude to him, on the other end I was able to be friendly with an ex of 15 years together. Each situation is different. There is no one answer fits all. 

Thanks Ironically I could probably write a similarly covincing response arguing the other side.

I think that ultimately it all depends on two things: a) her, and b) my ability to move on. As you say, each situation is different, but especially after an overall toxic and unhappy relationship it probably requires a bunch of goodwill and work on both ends to really make things work as friends further down the line. I do somewhat trust in my own ability to eventually move on from her and retain goodwill, at least at this point I genuinely wish her all the best and really love her as a person, and I see no reason why that should change, since I don't feel wronged by the breakup or the relationship (I think we both did our best; which in our case was nowhere near good enough). But I have no idea how she will feel about any of that in the future.

Since I have no idea about that, then, the only part of the equation I could reasonably work on is b). I have not moved on anywhere at all, in fact in my other thread I wrote I am floating in a limbo, and obsessively asking myself if we can be friends is only going to keep me in the limbo.

[d0nnivain]

Because you knew each other before & are in the same friend group, how about we change what you are asking for?  You don't need to be friends per se as in getting together alone, talking regularly etc. but you hope to be friendly as in not rocking the friend group & able to get along when you are all together, no drama.   I think the latter is attainable if you can be civil without weirdness & don't push for closeness but it will take time & an adjustment. 

Do understand that if she brings a new SO into the friend group that guy is going to resent your presence so you have to accept that at best you will an acquaintance / somebody she used to know.  Still that may allow you to talk to her in a group setting but it won't get you more.  

[Gaeta]

Yes it will only keep you in this limbo. 

Offer yourself the gift of no-contact. Clarity is waiting for you at the other end. 

When I found out my ex was a cheater I started the no-contact with *maybe we can fix what went wrong* to *the trust is gone I will find a better partner*. Give yourself time and distance.

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

1 minute ago, d0nnivain said:

Do understand that if she brings a new SO into the friend group that guy is going to resent your presence so you have to accept that at best you will an acquaintance / somebody she used to know.  Still that may allow you to talk to her in a group setting but it won't get you more.  

Ouch, that's actually a really good perspective. It's harsh but I needed to hear that.

I do know of ex-couples in the same friend group which are now with other people (also in the group), and everyone hangs out with each other, in fact I recently was at a party in just such a constellation. But firstly, that's years and years ago stuff we're talking about, and secondly I think that even so, the exes are not the closest. This is a really painful realization to have in the evening but I need to take this on board, if only to prepare myself for this.

I know a couple of her exes. One she is friendly with in exactly the manner you describe. The other one was an abusive a**h*** as far as I can tell and he still kind of stalks her in public situations and she resents that with all her heart (obviously).

That very first girlfriend I am friends with, with her it's different. I'm even good buddies with her longterm boyfriend, and when I'm brokenhearted I cry on her shoulder. But we split up like 15 years ago. And she was a teenager then, I was 21. It's a different story.

[TeddyBundy1993]

Give it a break pal, I can understand your pain.  You can't accept she has found someone else s*** hurts really bad and I have been there. You already got a answer, being friends with ex is not easy. Specially when feelings are involved. Go no contact and don't break you'll find answer to your question yourself. It gets better. On a personal note friendship with exes has never done any good for me 😀. And I mean with both the ones I got over and the ones I wasn't over. Don't stress about it. Stay away and slowly you'll learn what you need to do 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:46 PM, TeddyBundy1993 said:

Give it a break pal, I can understand your pain.  You can't accept she has found someone else s*** hurts really bad and I have been there. You already got a answer, being friends with ex is not easy. Specially when feelings are involved. Go no contact and don't break you'll find answer to your question yourself. It gets better. On a personal note friendship with exes has never done any good for me 😀. And I mean with both the ones I got over and the ones I wasn't over. Don't stress about it. Stay away and slowly you'll learn what you need to do 

I'll definitely stick with no contact hell or high water, no way am I making the same mistake of reaching out again. This morning I was feeling so bad mentally I was almost tempted and fantasized about it but I won't actually do it.

I'm ashamed to say I've now allowed myself the weakness of watching "Get Your Ex Back" videos on YouTube because they were so soothing. I 100% know they are bullshit, at least in my case nobody is coming back anywhere, and I need to stop watching them lest they convince me otherwise.

[d0nnivain]

If the worst thing you do in here is watch some videos you know are BS in the privacy of your own home, you will be fine. 

Steal yourself for the inevitable, when you have to deal with her in person because as part of the same friend group you end up in the same place at the same time but for now, heal anyway you need to, without reaching out.  The person who broke your heart won't be the one to glue you back together.  

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

6 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

If the worst thing you do in here is watch some videos you know are BS in the privacy of your own home, you will be fine. 

Steal yourself for the inevitable, when you have to deal with her in person because as part of the same friend group you end up in the same place at the same time but for now, heal anyway you need to, without reaching out.  The person who broke your heart won't be the one to glue you back together.  

Ugh, it's really depressing and anxiety-inducing to think about that moment, thankfully at least it's lockdown and the social life of said friend group normally revolves in large part around a now temporarily closed establishment. Were it open, both coming there and having to deal with the sight and staying away because I couldn't handle it would feel awful. There is no animosity between us but it would definitely set me back.

Edited March 11, 2021 by StoryOfMyLifeYes
grammar

[d0nnivain]

Understood.  With certain of my EXs I joke that each of us got custody of different places.   

For example I dated a man who is a Dean at my grad school, so I avoid my alma mater.  On the few occasions when I venture to campus, even now 20 years after we broke up, I still prefer to go at times when I am fairly certain he won't be there & I never go to reunion type events which are mandatory for the faculty.  He's a good person though & for my 25th reunion he let it get back to me (we still have dozens of mutual friends / acquaintances) that if I wanted to attend he wouldn't go. 

So when the world opens up again, you find a new favorite hang out.  You can still go to the old one just not as frequently 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

1 minute ago, d0nnivain said:

Understood.  With certain of my EXs I joke that each of us got custody of different places.   

For example I dated a man who is a Dean at my grad school, so I avoid my alma mater.  On the few occasions when I venture to campus, even now 20 years after we broke up, I still prefer to go at times when I am fairly certain he won't be there & I never go to reunion type events which are mandatory for the faculty.  He's a good person though & for my 25th reunion he let it get back to me (we still have dozens of mutual friends / acquaintances) that if I wanted to attend he wouldn't go. 

So when the world opens up again, you find a new favorite hang out.  You can still go to the old one just not as frequently 

The problem I guess is that there's a whole bunch of friends at the old hangout whom I definitely do want to keep seeing. I'm kind of hoping that (if I even still care by the time the world opens up, whenever that happens) I might become numb to it after 2-3 times seeing her.

When I worked in an office I witnessed two people who worked in the same room break up, and the dumper eventually started dating again. It was definitely rough on the dumpee, but somehow he made it through, after all - so surely I should be able to have a damn drink in a place I'd been frequenting for years before we even dated.

20 years is very long, though. Is the avoidance more of a matter of habit at this point for you, or would it still emotionally affect you to see him?

[TeddyBundy1993]

49 minutes ago, StoryOfMyLifeYes said:

I'll definitely stick with no contact hell or high water, no way am I making the same mistake of reaching out again. This morning I was feeling so bad mentally I was almost tempted and fantasized about it but I won't actually do it.

I'm ashamed to say I've now allowed myself the weakness of watching "Get Your Ex Back" videos on YouTube because they were so soothing. I 100% know they are bullshit, at least in my case nobody is coming back anywhere, and I need to stop watching them lest they convince me otherwise.

Ohh gosh you just sound like me when my ex left me. These videos are good actually but it us who doesn't understand that its over. Some relationship are different and there are possibilities to get back together but when we are hurt we fail to see that our ex are long gone and become vulnerable to these videos or their friendship s*** which actually is again a selfish move bcz they feel bad for dumping us. In few months this friendship dies too. I m happy that you saw the reality soon and hopefully gonna focus on moving on. It's not that hard, time heal everything there are some charges in life for sure but again nothing stays same at all forever.  

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

1 hour ago, TeddyBundy1993 said:

Ohh gosh you just sound like me when my ex left me. These videos are good actually but it us who doesn't understand that its over. Some relationship are different and there are possibilities to get back together but when we are hurt we fail to see that our ex are long gone and become vulnerable to these videos or their friendship s*** which actually is again a selfish move bcz they feel bad for dumping us. In few months this friendship dies too. I m happy that you saw the reality soon and hopefully gonna focus on moving on. It's not that hard, time heal everything there are some charges in life for sure but again nothing stays same at all forever.  

No, the videos aren't a good idea at all. Some of the stuff the "coaches" are telling you to do is sound advice but you can get that from standard self-help sources without framing it as some kind of project to get your ex back. In my case, intellectually I know exactly that it is indeed over and any hope I nurture within me is only going to keep me attached and not moving forward.

The other thing is that I am not moving forward either way right now, so resorting to these videos is comforting and at least introduces a welcome break in what otherwise feels like agony. I have abandonment issues to do with trauma and experience situations such as the one I am currently in extremely strongly, in a way that has nothing to do with "normal" heartbreak really, it's more of a flashback to childhood trauma. I'm in therapy but it doesn't really help in an acute crisis such as this. So it is totally debilitating and precludes any activities that might constitute a move on for me. Constant panic that makes even cleaning impossible, weeks on end.

Edited March 11, 2021 by StoryOfMyLifeYes

[TeddyBundy1993]

1 hour ago, StoryOfMyLifeYes said:

No, the videos aren't a good idea at all. Some of the stuff the "coaches" are telling you to do is sound advice but you can get that from standard self-help sources without framing it as some kind of project to get your ex back. In my case, intellectually I know exactly that it is indeed over and any hope I nurture within me is only going to keep me attached and not moving forward.

The other thing is that I am not moving forward either way right now, so resorting to these videos is comforting and at least introduces a welcome break in what otherwise feels like agony. I have abandonment issues to do with trauma and experience situations such as the one I am currently in extremely strongly, in a way that has nothing to do with "normal" heartbreak really, it's more of a flashback to childhood trauma. I'm in therapy but it doesn't really help in an acute crisis such as this. So it is totally debilitating and precludes any activities that might constitute a move on for me. Constant panic that makes even cleaning impossible, weeks on end.

Take a day at a time I recall I also opted for therapy but it didn't helped much. But I got close to family and friends. Sorry to hear about your childhood trauma, life is this way only people come and go all the time. We need to quit worrying about them bcz we cannot their actions but we can control ours. Good to know you have realized it's over as it's the first step towards healing. Don't keep your feelings inside talk about them to people, in therapy also resolve these issues inside of you. I am aware of these panic attack as usual keep breathing through it deep breaths or last resort is medicines.  Opt for distractions too a healthy body will help you too hit the gym bro. Stay positive,  we are not the only one who suffered there are many other people who are suffering a heartbreak too.  

[Lotsgoingon]

We are both in the second half of our thirties already, had only been together for four and a half months, briefly knew each other for a long time before that (but not really) and are sort of part of the same friends circle. 

Just to clarify here: you say you "briefly" knew each other "for a long time." I'm assuming you meant you superficially knew each other as acquaintances for a long time.

I actually think you could pull this off if you were two decades older. But it's not impossible. Four and a half months is short enough to be on your side. Knowing each other or a long time is on your side if you want to be friends.

But you got to get very very specific. Why do you want to be her friend? Does she have some quality that you really want in your life? And what do you mean by "friends." You talk to her/meet with her ... once a month? ... twice a year? 

I say don't try to figure this out. But do go talk to her next time you see her in a gathering of your social circle. See how it feels to talk to her. And you do need to absolutely make clear in your heart that the romance is over.  If there is something truly special about her that you want her as a friend at some point you probably should go ahead and lay it out to her. "Look, I know this might sound unrealistic. But I would like to be friends with you even though our romance didn't last." And you need to spell out some clear reasons. 

Spelling it out would make it safer for her to get close to you. In breakups, the partners are always watching out for their exes trying to get back in romance with them.

I will tell you this: a lot of time when I felt like you after a breakup, a year later, I didn't see anything special that merited me trying to be their friends. My desire apparently was just a delayed hangover from romance. But if you feel this same desire in a year ... or two years ... then go for it. Sometimes there might be a very practical reason you want to be friends. Get clear on what it is. 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

14 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

We are both in the second half of our thirties already, had only been together for four and a half months, briefly knew each other for a long time before that (but not really) and are sort of part of the same friends circle. 

Just to clarify here: you say you "briefly" knew each other "for a long time." I'm assuming you meant you superficially knew each other as acquaintances for a long time.

I actually think you could pull this off if you were two decades older. But it's not impossible. Four and a half months is short enough to be on your side. Knowing each other or a long time is on your side if you want to be friends.

But you got to get very very specific. Why do you want to be her friend? Does she have some quality that you really want in your life? And what do you mean by "friends." You talk to her/meet with her ... once a month? ... twice a year? 

I say don't try to figure this out. But do go talk to her next time you see her in a gathering of your social circle. See how it feels to talk to her. And you do need to absolutely make clear in your heart that the romance is over.  If there is something truly special about her that you want her as a friend at some point you probably should go ahead and lay it out to her. "Look, I know this might sound unrealistic. But I would like to be friends with you even though our romance didn't last." And you need to spell out some clear reasons. 

Spelling it out would make it safer for her to get close to you. In breakups, the partners are always watching out for their exes trying to get back in romance with them.

I will tell you this: a lot of time when I felt like you after a breakup, a year later, I didn't see anything special that merited me trying to be their friends. My desire apparently was just a delayed hangover from romance. But if you feel this same desire in a year ... or two years ... then go for it. Sometimes there might be a very practical reason you want to be friends. Get clear on what it is. 

I think that at this point in my recovery, the only two hidden motives for wanting to be her friend can be a) I want to get back together with her or b) I am going through a traumatic response and regressing to a child-state in which I am hoping for some adult with authority (her) to come and rescue me.

a) is unrealistic and wouldn't be a good idea at all if it wasn't. I suspect, however, that my primary motive right now is b). In fact, this morning I was doing so badly (brain fog, confusion, panic) that I was fantasizing about writing her or sending her a voice message in which I would say, look, this isn't about us or our past relationship, I am undergoing a traumatic response and doing really badly, you know me fairly well, please talk to me and help me remember who I am. I really could use some support right now.

Obviously it remained and will remain a mere fantasy. Intellectually I understand perfectly well that not only would this not be a good idea ethically speaking, it would also not help but rather damage me even in the least painful of possible outcomes. Let's assume she would react positively to this and go for a walk with me, genuinely trying to help. She would not be able to help in any meaningful way but meanwhile I would find myself stuck even deeper in regression, making myself comfortable in the child-state in which I am reliant on the benevolence of others (in this case her, who is quite possibly the worst person in the world right now for me to rely on the benevolence of). Inevitably I would hurt myself even further in the process, too, for instance she would inadvertently say something I would not be able to handle. Etc. etc.

This is only the least painful of outcomes, and probably also the least probable one. Far more likely is being left on read or receiving a short message along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel this way, hope you feel better soon". What would follow is, again, a deepening of the hole I am in, made even worse by the shame of having sent such an insane message and of having shown so much weakness to the wrong person.

In other words: right now there are no good motives for me to wish we were friends. I do think she is a great person of many positive qualities and a kind heart, and I think I have a genuine interest in her well-being. But this is hardly the reason why I am currently clinging to the thought of us being friends as if my life depended on it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by StoryOfMyLifeYes

[d0nnivain]

22 hours ago, StoryOfMyLifeYes said:

Is the avoidance more of a matter of habit at this point for you, or would it still emotionally affect you to see him?

It's more of a habit now.  Back then, because of him, our social lives revolved around campus.  When we broke up I had to build a new life with a new center.  It wasn't impossible.  I had friend groups that had nothing to do with him so I went back to those & it was fine.  It was obviously way more upsetting to see him in the beginning.  After I got married I didn't care if I saw him but then about 5 years ago he said something awful to me & now I don't want to see him because he pi$$es me off.  In that sense Covid has been a small blessing for me.  I have been able to virtual participate in campus things without going there, so there is no danger of seeing him because he has no reason to be in those meetings.  

It's a bit tougher when your hub is a bar / pub.  You will get more numb to her through exposure but I suggest that occasionally you invite people to go explore a new locale just you don't have to deal with her presence. 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

1 minute ago, d0nnivain said:

You will get more numb to her through exposure but I suggest that occasionally you invite people to go explore a new locale just you don't have to deal with her presence. 

Today I passed a woman who looked very remotely like her from afar, she was hanging out with a guy. I couldn't control myself and passed them close so I could see if it was her or not (it wasn't). My heart felt like it was about to jump out of my ribcage. I'm really not ready in the least. I might take your advice and just focus on other locales for now, other people have disappeared for sometimes up to a year from there for similar reasons.

[d0nnivain]

I'm sorry you had that stressful experience but I'm glad you are making the decision to broaden your horizons.  

FWIW I no longer consciously think about campus.  It just popped into my mind when I read your post.  To this day when I know I have to be there, I do take pains with my appearance.  If I have to see him I make sure I look D*** good.  When I saw him with his new GF who bears a passing resemblance to me except she was much shorter & had waaaayyy bigger boobs, I was very happy that I looked great & had on heels that made me almost 5'10, especially since the OW / new GF was only about 5'2  Hey, so I'm petty.   Leave me alone.  🤭

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

3 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm sorry you had that stressful experience but I'm glad you are making the decision to broaden your horizons.  

FWIW I no longer consciously think about campus.  It just popped into my mind when I read your post.  To this day when I know I have to be there, I do take pains with my appearance.  If I have to see him I make sure I look D*** good.  When I saw him with his new GF who bears a passing resemblance to me except she was much shorter & had waaaayyy bigger boobs, I was very happy that I looked great & had on heels that made me almost 5'10, especially since the OW / new GF was only about 5'2  Hey, so I'm petty.   Leave me alone.  🤭

Thank you. Well, at the moment I am still a helpless little mass, broadening of horizons still isn't really on the cards. I think that it's really that our specific situation fed into my trauma perfectly (water seeks its own level) - for instance, she had become super attached like... waaaay too quickly, and this, coupled with the radical distancing once she had made the decision to break up, did stuff to my brain. So at the moment the horizon-broadening activities are quite limited to reading self-help literature on CPTSD and fear of abandonment, hopefully soon enough I will be able to make my own moves in the world again.

Of course, the campus us so long ago... I am already surprised you care so much about how you look when you are there still, but I suppose some of these things become ingrained in our brains. The important thing is that it no longer hurts and doesn't interfere with your life.

[d0nnivain]

You will get there.  Healing takes time. 

[Lotsgoingon]

You know, this is the perfect time to go to therapy. Sounds like you're feeling more than the normal range of rejection and loss. Sounds like this breakup has touched on some deep issue in your life. Your goal is to just feel the pain, frankly. That's the goal and to positively distract yourself. 

Give it a few weeks: if you're still stuck, then go see a therapist.  Sounds like you're incredibly open minded and aware of your thoughts. The problem is, being aware of our thoughts and pain isn't the same as being able to effectively manage our thoughts and pain, which isn't the same as healing our pain.

 

[StoryOfMyLifeYes]

5 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

You know, this is the perfect time to go to therapy. Sounds like you're feeling more than the normal range of rejection and loss. Sounds like this breakup has touched on some deep issue in your life. Your goal is to just feel the pain, frankly. That's the goal and to positively distract yourself. 

Give it a few weeks: if you're still stuck, then go see a therapist.  Sounds like you're incredibly open minded and aware of your thoughts. The problem is, being aware of our thoughts and pain isn't the same as being able to effectively manage our thoughts and pain, which isn't the same as healing our pain.

 

You are completely correct. I have already identified what I feel as really being about things that are in the very far past. It's not about my ex, really - I wrote in my earlier posts that I am well aware the relationship was not working and was not doing either of us any good. In fact, I had previously tried to end it myself twice.

What this really is is trauma, I find it incredible that you were able to tell. The fact it turned me back into a chainsmoker, made me go into a binge, rendered me unable to write music or even properly function is anything but normal heartbreak. The good news is that I'm in a long-term therapy (possibly not the right one for me, but we certainly touched upon the trauma in it). The bad news is that the response of your nervous system is the response of your nervous system, and there's not much you can rationally do. When you are facing a hungry tiger, it is literally "too late" for words - your nervous system already feels what it feels.

Being reduced to such a mess feels shameful (which is really part of the whole toxic trauma complex) and it's hard not to feel bad about having lost your way because of something so "minor" compared to the way you feel. But I am taking small steps towards recovery, being on this forum has helped me a lot. And the silver lining is that this breakup has taught me a lot about myself and my responses to stimuli, and I hope to lead a more aware life from here on out.