Money, money and unemployment

[bananatree]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

The fact is that at this point, you could carry the entire family into a decent or even comfortable retirement yourself. It's a shame the two of you didn't save and invest more, but that's on both of you. By refusing to get any kind of job and contribute any kind of income, he's essentially made his own decision to take early retirement.

Now, you have to take charge of the situation. The only two workable options are that you align on your financial plan, or split and you take charge of your own. If you downgrade your lifestyle, pay off all debt, get frugal and minimize spending, save and invest aggressively, you can clean up this mess.

But you definitely need some kind of marriage and/or financial counseling. If you can't get on the same page as a couple, it's never going to work and you'll just keep spinning your wheels. 

We do have savings.  Well, I do.  I have a retirement account that I've been contributing to. We also have 529 plans for both our kids that are very healthy and the only reason my daughter has been able to stay at her current school. My husband has never started a retirement account, that's true. He was always very adamant that he would be able to keep working forever. I'm in the position now where I could see us just eating up everything I already saved in order to maintain a lifestyle that is no longer sustainable.  

[Ruby Slippers]

4 minutes ago, bananatree said:

We do have savings.  Well, I do.  I have a retirement account that I've been contributing to. 

The mine and his thinking is off. Given how long you've been married, according to the law, pretty much everything the two of you own - assets and debts - is owned 50/50. If you were to divorce, everything would be split in half, the value of homes, retirement accounts, etc.

You have to consider that he may never earn another penny again and plan for that possibility, which from my point of view looks pretty likely.

[BaileyB]

56 minutes ago, bananatree said:

I'm pissed that he won't be honest about our status and move forward into the new reality and that he keeps me trapped in a delusion.

He doesn’t really keep you trapped. With respect, he couldn’t do that without your consent. You have always had the ability to make a different decision, you have chosen not to. And, I get it. You love him, he is your husband, you have a family to consider... but, it’s for those very same reasons that you must at some point take the lead and say - enough is enough. Hopefully, when faced with the reality of a possible divorce, he will work with you and not against you. I say that because it does sound like you love the man, and you don’t want him to be out in the cold. And, of course you want to right this ship as an intact family for your children, if possible. But - the fact remains that continuing to allow him to make these false promises while he drives your family further and further toward financial ruin is not a good plan - for you, for your children, and for your husband. Something needs to be done, I wouldn’t let the sun go down before I spoke with him. Have a plan that includes marriage and financial counselling if required. He can chose to get on board or you will serve him with divorce papers. 

[BaileyB]

4 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

You have to consider that he may never earn another penny again and plan for that possibility, which from my point of view looks pretty likely.

You should in fact consult a lawyer because depending on the law where you live, you may in fact owe him spousal support. Or child support, if you divorce. 

[BaileyB]

19 minutes ago, bananatree said:

The only person who would hate it is my daughter who really wants to finish high school at her school with her friends.

How many more years does she have? 

Is it possible that your mother could sell her house and move to you? Probably not, if both of your social support networks are in a different town. How are away does she live?

[Acacia98]

8 hours ago, Caauug said:

You ignored the 19yr age gap because he was a CEO making $300k/yr. and was a nice guy? You were all good for 12yrs when he was on the big money. You fulfilled your maternal instincts, had 2 children, you were a SAHM living the dream life. You enjoyed helping to blow that $300k salary every year. It doesn't sound like you saved much.

Now 6yrs after the dream life crashed you want to ditch him as you no longer see a future with him. That is half the time he gave you your dream life.  He's still a CEO but only in name as his non-profit can't pay wages, so no value in his status left. He's a 60yr old dreamer with no money, no status and a failure.

You are correct. This is one reason why there will never be equality between the sexes. He must support his family, it's not right that you have to support it.

But that's not really what she's saying, though, is it?

She's quite happy to support him, but for her to do that, they have to downsize to a lifestyle that matches her income. You can't live a $350,000 lifestyle on a $95,000 salary. But he's unwilling to do his part to facilitate the downsizing. According to her, the only way left for her to jumpstart the downsizing process is to initiate a divorce.

That's a very far cry from "I don't want to support him. He's on his own."

Edited March 11, 2021 by Acacia98

[Ruby Slippers]

nevermind...

Edited March 11, 2021 by Ruby Slippers

[Acacia98]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

He's 61, who is going to give him a job?
No-one.
He is too old and vastly overqualified. It is the trap many find themselves in.
His only hope was to make his own job, which he did quite successfully until it proved impossible. 
Now he is flung back on a job's market that doesn't want him.
He spent his 40s and 50's not building a nest egg for retirement but instead spent the cash on lifestyle, kids and fripperies.
This is often the problem with older fathers, their earnings are on a downward curve and kids are so very expensive.
I agree with @Caauug,  your husband did his bit, more than his bit actually, but life happens and as the younger and fitter member of the partnership it is now up to you to try and get you all through it.
 

I agree with the sentiment that you have to take on the full leadership role now, OP. Your husband doesn't seem to have the emotional skills or psychological strength to cope with the present circumstances. You've given him six years. That's more than enough time to establish that the old way of doing things won't work.  

I don't know if you actually have to divorce to jumpstart the process. If I were you, I'd explore all remaining options through marriage counselling and financial counselling (perhaps you already have?). And if they didn't work, I'd go through with the divorce.

I don't think he is incapable of getting a job, though. I think it's a terrible idea for him to retire now if his physical health has not deteriorated. Many men's sense of identity and self-worth lies in their professional contributions to the world. And when they stop working altogether, they feel useless and start to give up on life. I'm sure he has transferrable skills. I only wish he were willing to consider other options. There are opportunities out there for freelancers, for instance. Maybe he can look some up online. But I do recognize he'd have to have a major mindset change before he was even willing to think of such possibilities. And I don't know if that's going to happen.

[Ruby Slippers]

24 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

I don't think he is incapable of getting a job, though. I think it's a terrible idea for him to retire now if his physical health has not deteriorated. Many men's sense of identity and self-worth lies in their professional contributions to the world. And when they stop working altogether, they feel useless and start to give up on life. I'm sure he has transferrable skills. I only wish he were willing to consider other options. There are opportunities out there for freelancers, for instance. Maybe he can look some up online. But I do recognize he'd have to have a major mindset change before he was even willing to think of such possibilities. And I don't know if that's going to happen.

I agree. I think one of the most self-defeating attitudes is "I used to be a big shot, in management, ABC, so I'm above doing XYZ." Work is work. Sometimes you may work for high dollar, and sometimes low. I've worked all over the spectrum, and even a few years ago supplemented professional work with service work on the side to make faster progress. I'm a firm believer that any kind of work has value, and simply being in the mentality of working hard begets more work, more opportunities, and more income. There have never before in history been more opportunities to make money than right now. He could deliver pizzas, mow yards, answer customer service calls from home, clean houses, run errands, and on and on and on. It may not be glamorous, but he'd be in productive mode, bringing in valuable income to contribute to the family and their future - as opposed to now, where he's essentially a loafer, consuming resources while contributing nothing. I can think of nothing less attractive than a man sitting around the house doing nothing.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Ruby Slippers

[Caauug]

31 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I was with you up till this point. No one is entitled to anything. I think the last thing she should do at this point is try to find another guy to rely on financially. It's high time to take charge of her own life and financial future.

You are correct, "No one is entitled to anything!!!!" 

Yes, that post was just about 100% sarcastic, but it all hits close to the mark.... As I was forward thinking with finding someone new, I wouldn't say it would never happen....  Yet.... History tends to repeat it's self.... 

To OP:

I have next to no sympathy someone crying hard times when they have had 12yrs of $300K salary... That's $3.6m for us peasants, taxed at 50%? is still $1.8m free and clear over 12yrs.... And you still have a mortgage??? How can you manage to do that??? Most people will never see that in their lifetimes as a couple with combined income.

What ever you want/need to do is up to you. To flash the victim card saying your husband is a looser and you have every right to leave him only proves Briffault's Law.... (For the most part, implied and proven...) Human nature, ya gotta love it cause ya can't fight it!!!

Disclaimer: I assume dollars, I don't know if USD, CAD, AUD, NZD etc. If it's Thai baht or something trading the same value or less: I retract all above posts.

 

[bananatree]

4 minutes ago, Caauug said:

You are correct, "No one is entitled to anything!!!!" 

Yes, that post was just about 100% sarcastic, but it all hits close to the mark.... As I was forward thinking with finding someone new, I wouldn't say it would never happen....  Yet.... History tends to repeat it's self.... 

To OP:

I have next to no sympathy someone crying hard times when they have had 12yrs of $300K salary... That's $3.6m for us peasants, taxed at 50%? is still $1.8m free and clear over 12yrs.... And you still have a mortgage??? How can you manage to do that??? Most people will never see that in their lifetimes as a couple with combined income.

What ever you want/need to do is up to you. To flash the victim card saying your husband is a looser and you have every right to leave him only proves Briffault's Law.... (For the most part, implied and proven...) Human nature, ya gotta love it cause ya can't fight it!!!

Disclaimer: I assume dollars, I don't know if USD, CAD, AUD, NZD etc. If it's Thai baht or something trading the same value or less: I retract all above posts.

 

In fact, I have every right to leave him.  I can leave him for the sole reason that I don't like the color of his socks. Briffault's Law-- I take it you're like a Red Pill guy.  I'm sorry about that. BTW, there are plenty of men on this site who are also frustrated with their wives' inability or unwillingness to provide income. 

I'm not talking about 12 years out of a lifetime.  (He wasn't actually making $300K when I met him, he was making about $150K and then it grew over time to $300K, but I didn't want to go over the whole timeline of his earnings for the point of this post for simplicity's sake.  I was also working then and did until I had babies.  I was only a SAHM for a few years). I'm talking about our current situation that has been going on for 6 years and I need to make a decision about moving forward with my life and being realistic.

Mortgages tend to be on 15 yr and 30 yr terms.  And we live in California where real estate prices are high af. But I'm not going to go into all the specifics of what we owe and where.  That isn't the point.  Obviously, we could have planned better during that time to ensure solvency for a future I didn't predict.  We spent our money to build our life at that time... The fact is, I could easily be solvent.  Real Estate is an investment and I could cash in now and have plenty of money in my pocket.  But you don't seem to get the point of my post, so I'll just leave it here with you.

When you create a life that demands X amount of dollars to sustain and then that amount drops by a third for whatever reason, you need to change course. And I do have a right to be a little upset that my husband neither attempted to supplement his income with other work (he could have, really.), or make changes to allow for current circumstances because he is convinced that "any day now" he will be back to his former glory.

I've already committed to supporting him until his death. Whether we are married or not.  And, of course, the irony is I could find a new rich husband, which would help me do that for him.  But that's not my current intention. 

[bananatree]

@Caauug I'm just glad I'm not a gold digger and wanted to work.  Because if I didn't value my career, we'd be in a majorly bad situation with zero income. I really could have just expected him to support me in the lap of luxury, but that was never my intention, which you seem to believe. 

[Ruby Slippers]

The vast majority of people at every income level live beyond their means - too much spending and debt and not enough saving and investing, poor financial planning all around. It's not too late to correct the bad financial habits - but it will take radical change, a new mindset, which clearly will have to be driven by you.

[bananatree]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

How many more years does she have? 

Is it possible that your mother could sell her house and move to you? Probably not, if both of your social support networks are in a different town. How are away does she live?

My daughter is in 10th grade now -- so two more years after this year.  

My mom and my job are in San Francisco and I currently live in LA. I was doing a partial commute to work for a year and a half, which was very insane, but doable. I'd much rather live in SF with my mom than continue that commute once my office reopens. But since COVID, they are more open to distance work than they were before. 

My mom tried to move with me to LA, but she really didn't thrive.  She missed her friends and her activities which keep her pretty busy.  She's also used to her regular routes and panicked at the idea of trying to navigate around Los Angeles.  She basically holed up inside the house and refused to leave and got super depressed.  So, she went home and decided to postpone any decisions on where she will spent her final years until a real decision needed to be made.

At 80, she's still in good shape and takes care of herself, but it won't stay that way for long, since she is already struggling with driving, carrying in groceries, and also just basic stuff like changing lightbulbs. 

I'm kinda depressed right now at the idea that "I should have known..."  I should have known that my husband would end up unemployed in his mid-50's. I should have known that we might have to survive on my sole income.  I should have known my mom would need help when she got old. I should have known she'd hate living in LA.  I should have known, I should have known, I should have known.  

I'm trying now to made good choice now, knowing what I know now.

 

 

[bananatree]

So, I'm feeling the insanity of a triple sandwich in the sandwich generation.  I need to care for my kids.  I need to care for my mom. And I also need to care for and support my husband... and this would all be super fine if I had not bought a house, or a car, or gone to grad school, or sent my kids to preschool (they went to public elementary btw), or stayed in California.  I don't know... I'm down on the whole conversation that revolves around why didn't I make better choices before.  I don't know... why didn't I? 

Of course I had some savings, but when I was making less than &3K a month as a first year teacher, I had to snag that to pay for expenses.  And without blaming my husband, I thought, what can I do to change our circumstances.  I got a much higher paying job (which is also an awesome job), but I'm an educator, so I'll never make near what my husband used to make unless I figure out something very novel. But... my point is that, his unemployment has always been "temporary."  We are holding off until he gets back on his feet.  But it's just not happening. And this situation, as many of you have noted, is very serious because it's not about money at all.  It's about literally everything. 

It has been really traumatizing for me to say to my husband something along the lines of "your goose is cooked.  You're done.  It's time to face facts and throw in the towel and go out to pasture." I didn't ever say that of course.  I supported with following all kinds of crazy schemes (including running for office omg, which was the death knell.  He ended up spending the LAST of our liquid income on a political race.  Which he dropped out of. Sigh). 

But I should have known.  None of this is even his fault.  

I just want peace.  I want to live and work in one place.  I want to make sure I have enough $ to cover my monthly bills and save for later.  I want to make sure my mom and kids are taken care of.  And I want to make sure my husband is OK.  This issue is not the only issue of course.  But, goddamn, that man is my karma, swear to god.

[Ruby Slippers]

You could support your kids, husband, and mom - provided you and your husband agree on a strict budget, aggressive debt payoff plan, sale of unnecessary assets such as the second home and second car, and solid plan for saving and investing. Another bonus would be your mom bringing any of her own assets into the mix, such as from the sale of her own home so she can live with you for the rest of her life.

[Crazelnut]

Girl, there is nothing to do but give him some ultimatums. You've let this go on too long. You can't make any forward progress when your partner is dragging you backwards. Give him a firm deadline for getting a job (and apparently you will have to stipulate that he must bring in $ regularly, not just when he feels like working). Give him a deadline for sitting down with you to make the hard decisions -- monthly budget, whether to sell the house, etc. Be firm but loving. Let him know that his days of bullsh***** everyone (including himself) are over. Time to face reality. 

If he refuses to act like a grownup, you need to protect yourself & the kids. You will have to cut him loose and move on without him.  Do NOT feel bad about doing so. You've given him WAY more time & support than any reasonable person would. (He ran for office, when he has no income and his family is suffering?!?! WTH were you guys thinking?!) Without you to enable him, he'll figure something out. You'll be surprised - just watch.  Do what you need to do legally to untangle yourself from his finances. Know that you did everything you could to salvage things. 

[BaileyB]

I’m sorry, that sounds really stressful. You are definitely the sandwich generation, and I understand why your mom would not want to leave her city. If it helps at all, My family moved when I was in grade 10. At the time, I was very angry with my father (we moved because of a job opportunity for him). In hindsight, it set my life on a different path and I met a wonderful new group of friends. It was the best decision for my family, and I thrived in the new city. Even my brother, who took longer to adjust and find his way, found a group of lifelong friends (they all literally live on the same street as adults and are raising their kids together) and has found career success unlike anything we could have imagined. It can be done, and it can turn out well. But, it’s hard. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by BaileyB

[Allupinnit]

I cannot imagine the stress you are under.  The simple concept to give, save and live on the rest has always served me and my H well.  It's already pre-allocated and built into the budget so it's fool proof, we are growing our money monthly and not going into debt.  Freedom is in the margins.

Have you tried speaking to a counselor together?  I'm wondering what your debt-to-income ratio is, most financial advisors would say that before you can begin saving you have to pay off your consumer debt.  Do you have anything in collections?  You cannot really move forward if you are a slave to your money.  

First things first though - you need to downsize, personally I would have forced it after a year at most from his unemployment.  How have you been surviving all this time?  

I agree with the others that this is his Hail Mary moment, it's either now or never with you and if he can't get on board because his ego can't handle it then I'd file before he has a chance to ruin you any further financially and your belongings are being repossessed Schitts Creek style.

[bananatree]

42 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

 

First things first though - you need to downsize, personally I would have forced it after a year at most from his unemployment.  How have you been surviving all this time?  

 

With the savings that I did such a crappy job at creating.  Maintaining my lifestyle up to this point (keeping kids in their home, schools etc.) has been no easy feat. I've gotten some great feedback from this thread, but as any time you post something on the internet, it will always be a mixed bag of responses.  Like, well, YOU married him.  And YOU didn't plan well enough for this.  And, wow, you enjoyed spending HIS money when he had it, but now you can't handle the shoe being on the other foot.

I'm feeling so defeated right now. Apparently I did plan enough to survive for 6 years maintaining the status quo.  And fully fund my kids' colleges. I'm not all that pathetic. But it's time now to make some hard choices-- and I have to make those choices by myself.  Because everyone is super happy with the status quo.  And why should they not be?  I'm the only one who is not. So I get to support everyone AND be the bad guy.

Today, his check cleared. $4K. He's feeling very happy.  He said, "we should be good for a couple months." Meaning he believes he will get TWO checks! But it just makes me feel sick inside.  Because a couple months is not going to cut it.  I hate feeling so insecure.  I'll get caught up on some bills, and I'm glad for that.  But it feels like more false hope.  And I can't get him to back me up.  It's like, "what?  I got paid.  I'm turning that corner!"  And then we'll be back to where we started next month.  Maybe the following month.  The truth is that I need to rely on myself alone. 

As Joe Biden is saying to me right now in the back ground "I just want the truth.  Just tell me the truth."   

We survived for some months because he got his car stolen.  He literally left the keys on the seat.  In an unlocked car.  In Downtown Los Angeles.  On Skid Row.  A meth addict stole the car and ended up in a high speed chase (it even got on TV!). And then crashed it. It was actually super funny. So he got an insurance check for the car. But we couldn't buy another car.  We had to pay bills.

Then when it was time for me to renew the car insurance, they wouldn't let me add him to the policy because he has a suspension on his record plus the theft, plus a warrant (!!!). All of these he cleared up.  But he can't even drive legally right now.  

So, judge me all you want, but it's like he's an effing child.  No job, little income, no ability to drive... and if you think this affects how I feel about him?  I'm sorry.  It just does.  It really does.  I need a partner.  Not a total dependent at this moment. I want to cry every day.

[Allupinnit]

I'm not judging you at all.  My H and I have gone through our own financial crisis and came out on the other side.  But it took both of us and a lot of honesty.  I am much better with money than he is and even though I didn't want to I have taken that over and now we have zero debt and a solid financial future.

You're right that he is not being a partner to you.  How are you shouldering all of this on your own?  Do you have anyone in your life to talk to?  4k per month is not that much money for a family, and probably doesn't even begin to make a dent in your debt.  

We don't have children together and it did take me going to get my own apartment for him to know that I was serious about not living in chaos anymore.  I had had enough fighting and wondering what unpaid bill was going to show up in the mailbox.  I am with you it affected how I felt about him.  Financial infidelity is almost as damaging as a run of the mill affair.

[BaileyB]

50 minutes ago, bananatree said:

Like, well, YOU married him.  And YOU didn't plan well enough for this.  And, wow, you enjoyed spending HIS money when he had it, but now you can't handle the shoe being on the other foot.

To be fair, I think that was one poster. The vast majority of people in this discussion have offered tough love, if not been very supportive. Try not to focus on the one poster who touches a nerve...

50 minutes ago, bananatree said:

I'm feeling so defeated right now. Apparently I did plan enough to survive for 6 years maintaining the status quo.  And fully fund my kids' colleges. I'm not all that pathetic.

You shouldn’t feel pathetic and defeated - that’s a tremendous accomplishment. 

50 minutes ago, bananatree said:

But it's time now to make some hard choices-- and I have to make those choices by myself.  Because everyone is super happy with the status quo.  And why should they not be?  I'm the only one who is not. So I get to support everyone AND be the bad guy.

Unfortunately, you do have to make the hard choices by yourself, but I believe you can do it. You have a good head on your shoulders, despite the fact that you’ve let this go on a little too long... Again, not judgment. I totally understand why you did it. But, it needs to change. 

Of course, your family is content to keep the status quo - you have allowed them to maintain their lives by carrying the burden of stress. Do they even know the seriousness of the challenge?

I’ve had the experience of downsizing as a teenager when life threw my family a curve ball. The job that we moved for - moved to another city and my father did not. He didn’t want to uproot my family twice. We sold our beautiful home for a much smaller home. I got a summer job and saved my money to pay for my clothing and help pay for sports/schools trips. It wasn’t awful. I mostly remember my concern for my parents, because I knew they were very stressed. I also think of that time with great pride - because my parents showed me the way... they showed me what resilience looked like. They showed me what hard work could do as they started over to become financially stable, actually very successful, again. I was proud of my parents. I learned a lot about money and life. 

I was watching the news this morning and there was a feature about the financial struggle some families are enduring because of covid. This story was about teenage children who have taken jobs to help their parents who have lost their jobs to pay the bills and support the family. Now, these kids were struggling with exactly what you are feeling - it’s a terrible stress for children to endure while trying to go to school and just be a kid. But, it was the simple fact that they saw their parent struggle and they stepped up to help that amazed me! It’s like the dishes - I don’t actually need my partner’s help with the dishes but just the offer to help makes me feel better... better than if he just goes to do his own thing leaving everything for me to do. 

Yes, you need a partner. You’ve carried the load for a long time and it’s time that your family steps up to help. They are not going to like it, because you’ve never required it before... but, the time is now to come together and take care of each other. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by BaileyB

[Wiseman2]

Why not do a legal trial separation? It's a win-win situation.

You and your son can move to SF to be with your mother.

And your daughter can stay in LA with her father to finish HS.

Also when you consult with an attorney you'll get advice on how to sever the financial mess.

This way you get to live where you want and how you want...and so do your kids.

With so much discord, stress and resentment, why not prepare for the inevitable anyway?

Talk to an attorney for advice. The problem is you're trying this DIY approach (with compete chaos)...and everyone's unhappy with it. Most of all you.

[bananatree]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why not do a legal trial separation? It's a win-win situation.

You and your son can move to SF to be with your mother.

And your daughter can stay in LA with her father to finish HS.

Also when you consult with an attorney you'll get advice on how to sever the financial mess.

This way you get to live where you want and how you want...and so do your kids.

With so much discord, stress and resentment, why not prepare for the inevitable anyway?

Talk to an attorney for advice. The problem is you're trying this DIY approach (with compete chaos)...and everyone's unhappy with it. Most of all you.

This is what I was thinking.  I was not that excited about splitting the kids, but they don't really hang out together that much anyway, and we can coordinate weekend visits with minimal difficulty. My daughter is the kind of kid who will definitely feel abandoned though and resent that set-up too, but I can't make everyone happy all the time. 

[notbroken]

There is an old saying that 'when you are in a hole then quit digging'.    Your past mistakes don't really matter other than to learn from them.  You can't redo it.   It does seem clear that you can't maintain your current lifestyle.  Public school won't kill your kids.  Cash out their college funds and use that money (yes).   You meant well but it didn't work out.  You do NOT owe them a 'free' college education.  Help them the best you can.   Sell the house.   Go on a strict budget.  Failure to do so will absolutely bring financial doom if you continue.   That's just the hard truth.   Ask your husband to get a job.  Any job.  If he does not then divorce him with a clear conscience if you choose.   Very tough situation.  I've seen it before.  Usually the 'high flyer' fails to accept their new lot in life and thinks they are above the lesser job.  They'll chase an impossible dream forever rather than accept a job at Home Depot, etc.  I'm sorry you and your husband is in that situation but reality is what it is.   

My own income can be very erratic (small business owner).  It takes A LOT of discipline to not spend it all in the good years and go in debt in the leaner years.  I wasn't always good at it.   Humbling experience sometimes.