Honestly, is it possible to love someone and cheat on them?

[Uruktopi]

2 hours ago, notbroken said:

How can you say what is in the heart and mind of another?  How can anyone say that another person didn't love them (they can't possibly know what that person thinks/feels)?  I strongly believe SOME people can love someone and cheat on them.   SOME can't.    

There is no need to know the other one´s mind, heart. Not about this.

Of course, the cheater MAY sincerely FEEL love and sincerely THINK they love the BS.

Is it enough to call that love? It is, for some people, certainly not for everybody.

As an extreme analogy, a delirium is quite a real thing.

What is not so real is what is perceived under those conditions.

May a cheater feel love while cheats and be convinced about? Yes, probably, sometimes.

Is it what I would call love? No. Not the kind of love I would want and neither accept.

Love as what philosophers call an universal, so wide that may include some behaviours, is not well defined for my (personal) use.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Uruktopi

[Alpacalia]

2 hours ago, notbroken said:

How can you say what is in the heart and mind of another?  How can anyone say that another person didn't love them (they can't possibly know what that person thinks/feels)?  I strongly believe SOME people can love someone and cheat on them.   SOME can't.    

Do you understand that many people who have been cheated on experience many of the symptoms of PTSD? What about a collapse in their self-esteem? Self-loathing? Self-blame?

How can someone deliberately cause such anguish to someone they claim to love?

[Lotsgoingon]

2 hours ago, Alpaca said:

Do you understand that many people who have been cheated on experience many of the symptoms of PTSD? What about a collapse in their self-esteem? Self-loathing? Self-blame?

How can someone deliberately cause such anguish to someone they claim to love?

Have you never had a close friend who at times utterly got on your nerves? You're treating love like some heavenly thing that transcends human reality.

Parents go through periods when they can't stand their kids, loathe their kids. Yes, they love them at the same time. If by "love," you mean want the best for them and are willing to sacrifice deeply for the kid.

Having an affair doesn't require that you hate your partner. And the affair partner isn't trying to cause PTSD.  Most people probably don't know that affairs result in PTSD.  (I heard this for the first time a week ago.) And the affair partner isn't thinking about the hurt when they have the affair. Yes, some of the marriages are already in bad shape and are limping through when the affair happens. Cheating partners are caught into this new fun thing. 

Avoiding an affair takes a lot more than "Love." Namely it takes the ability to sense when sexual energy is building with an outsider and to immediately pull back, go cold and shut down that flirtatious energy. Avoiding an affair requires the ability to give a firm no. You gotta be able to say a firm no when someone shows interest that you like.  It's not just a matter of virtue. Avoiding an affair also requires you to be willing to fight it out openly with your spouse when you're miserable. Or to come at it from the other end, avoiding an affair requires that the partners be both conscious and aware and that the couple keeps track of the wellbeing of the marriage and work through their own vulnerabilities and triggers. 

Speaking of trauma (maybe not to the level of PTSD) one of the best things a couple can do to create a safe marriage is to be absolutely ruthlessly aware of their own traumas and sensitive spots and to practice ways of not getting stuck in this old "stuff" when you're in conflict with a spouse. That's the best way to keep a marriage alive and to block affairs--not imagining that "love" solves everything. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Lotsgoingon

[Uruktopi]

3 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Have you never had a close friend who at times utterly got on your nerves? You're treating love like some heavenly thing that transcends human reality.

Parents go through periods when they can't stand their kids, loathe their kids. Yes, they love them at the same time. If by "love," you mean want the best for them and are willing to sacrifice deeply for the kid.

Having an affair doesn't require that you hate your partner. And the affair partner isn't necessarily trying to cause PTSD.  Most people probably don't know that affairs result in results in PTSD.  And yes, sometimes the cheating partner is angry at their betrayed partner. And the affair partner isn't thinking about the hurt when they have the affair. Yes, some of the marriages are already in bad shape and are limping through when the affair happens. Cheating partners are caught into this new fun thing. 

Avoiding an affair takes a lot more than "Love." Namely it takes the ability to sense when sexual energy is building with an outsider and to immediately pull back. Avoiding an affair requires the ability to give a firm no. It's not just a matter of virtue. Avoiding an affair also requires you to be willing to fight it out openly with your spouse when you're miserable. Or to come at it from the other end, avoiding an affair benefits with the partners are both conscious and aware and keep track of the wellbeing of the marriage and work through their own vulnerabilities and triggers. 

"Avoiding an affair takes a lot more than "Love." "

"Namely it takes the ability to sense when sexual energy is building with an outsider and to immediately pull back. Avoiding an affair requires the ability to give a firm no. It's not just a matter of virtue. Avoiding an affair also requires you to be willing to fight it out openly with your spouse when you're miserable. Or to come at it from the other end, avoiding an affair benefits with the partners are both conscious and aware and keep track of the wellbeing of the marriage and work through their own vulnerabilities and triggers."

 You are right on what it takes.

So, just as an mind excercise, let´s include those required tasks in what we call love as an integral and necessary part of it.

And, as part of the same conception, we may do not call it Love, if not.

 

 

 

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Alpaca said:

How can someone deliberately cause such anguish to someone they claim to love?

It's not deliberate, though. That's what the secrecy part is for. And if that aspect fails, the pain caused is not deliberate (excepting "revenge affairs"). It is risked, which is a different thing.

If you really want to cause your spouse pain, there are much more straightforward ways to go about it.

If you want to risk money, you can put it into e.g. risky stocks. If you want to lose money, you can simply throw it away.

Also not everyone reacts to a Dday with the same level of distress. It's not realistic to assume PTSD as a result IMO. Hurt, yes. PTSD, no.

That said, I DO think any cognizant adult would/should be aware that they are taking a BIG risk cheating. Not just with their partner's feelings, but in a LOT of ways.

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Also not everyone reacts to a Dday with the same level of distress. It's not realistic to assume PTSD as a result IMO. Hurt, yes. PTSD, no.

I said PTSD-like symptoms. Perhaps on account of the gaslighting and scapegoating.

[Dis]

For sure it's possible... they just don't love us in the right ways 

 

My ex cheated on me, without my knowledge for our entire 2.5 year relationship

 

Once I got to a point where I could no longer trust him I broke up with him and this 280lb 6'4 dude held his head in his hands and cried like a baby

 

He still texts me to this day about how much he misses me/loves me and begs me to talk to him.... it's been 6 years since the break up and I've never once texted him back 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Dis

[Dis]

29 minutes ago, Alpaca said:

I said PTSD-like symptoms. Perhaps on account of the gaslighting and scapegoating.

idk about anyone else but I came out of relationship where my ex cheated with some very serious issues and while they've faded with time, I think they'll always be there

[BC1980]

I think you can love someone and cheat on them. Especially if the cheating was to fulfill a physical need and not an emotional need. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by BC1980

[MsJayne]

I say no, because love involves respect, and respect involves honesty. But different people have a different idea of what love is. 

[basil67]

13 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

different people have a different idea of what love is. 

This.   In order to answer the question, we should first define love.   For example, some see it as an action and other see it as a feeling.  Trying to define love would end in a circle of argument because we're talking about personal feelings and beliefs rather than facts.

[Lotsgoingon]

And to one up you Basil, the way the OP is using love translates into having a commitment to love. No one feels positive feelings about anyone all the time in a relationship. My beloved mother, who I miss so much, could drive me nuts with her micro-managing (I won't say bullying cause she might jump back to this life to start arguing with me). 

So really what a couple has is  a commitment to love. Which is just a commitment to do your very best to take care and respect the other person in spite of the flux of momentary feelings. A commitment to love means I can't stand you right now, we haven't had sex in months, we're cold and distant around each other but we are still in the relationship.

So if one partner were to get sick, the other person considers it their own role to take care of the ill partner even though the relationship is basically frozen for now. 

 

 

[NYAG]

10 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

I disagree cheating is an act of hostility unless it's done in malicious ways to ensure the spouse will find out.  As for selfishness - just about everything we do is an act of selfishness. Marriage too is an act of selfishness. When we 'call dibs' on another human being with a contract, commitment, and 'vows.' 

"I want you to love ME forever and no one else, no matter how much things change, no matter who else you might meet, etc."

To other women: "Don't touch X, he's MINE, his resources will always go to us and our children only." 

To other men: "Don't touch Y, she's mine. Her body belongs to me, all other penises keep away, so I can keep track of MY bloodline."

Everything is "selfishness." The sooner we accept this basic instinct (see Dawkins), the easier it gets for all of us to understand human nature, work with what we have, and set reasonable limits.  In my experience, people who are quick to accuse others of selfishness are some of the most selfish people out there, but they are good at cloaking theirs in virtue. 

To the extent the WS seeks to have a need met outside the marriage, he/she is selfish. To the extent they also seek to protect the spouse from the hurtful truth by hiding the A - he/she is NOT selfish. Just because they care and think about the spouse, doesn't mean they can always go with that need unmet.

More ofte than not, A-s are a desperate way to reconcile human's natural selfishness with their care about loved ones. 

Few are either completely self-driven (100% selfish) or complete martyrs for the exclusive well-being of others (100% unselfish).

 

A splendid response. I don't think there's anything else I can add to this, and it matches perfectly with the experience I am going through at the moment.

[usa1ah]

On 3/13/2021 at 9:55 AM, snowcones said:

If by "finito" you mean, they end, then I disagree.  Most people stay together after infidelity.  As someone said above, some cheaters claim to still love their spouse/partner, which is why I asked the question.  Is it possible to really love someone and cheat on them?

No it isn’t possible. 
 

Cheaters only care about themselves, what makes them happy or feel good. They don’t give a damn about the pain and suffering it causes. That is until they are caught. Then they are just upset that they got caught, trying to play it off as remorse for their deliberate behavior. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by usa1ah

[NYAG]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:04 PM, neowulf said:

So where does the sexless marriage of 10 years fit into that? 
The otherwise loving partnership, with a critical, tragic flaw?
The woman who's husband won't touch her, but is tireless in raising his kids and providing for his family?

You can argue, from a clinical point of view, that in each of these cases, the people involved should simply leave.
To which I say, that's about as useful as telling a fat person to "stop stuffing their face".  Having simple solutions
doesn't mean they're easy solutions.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who cheat callously, but I think this kind of black and white thinking about the 
issue isn't helpful.  People are flesh and blood.  They make mistakes.  They fall victim to addiction.  They self sabotage.

I'm not trying to justify infidelity.  It's one of the most hurtful things a person can do to someone they love.  
But I disagree it's always as machiavellian as people think it is.  Sometimes people just screw up.
 

Thanks Neowulf, I totally agree with this. There is no clear cut with cheating versus not cheating. It's easy to castigate someone for straying but unless you know the full story, how can anyone possibly make such a judgement call. If people took the time to understand the ins and outs of individual cases and open their minds a little bit they would see it is not that simple and it's damaging to not allow for those conversations to take place. Leaving isn't always the best option. Remaining celibate in a sexless relationship for 5, 10 or 20 years might work for some who want to keep doing their duty but not for everyone. Humans are sexual creatures. And if the relationship is starved of sex, intimacy or even basic common ground interests or hobbies, individuals should be able to go and find that if it helps them keep their sanity whilst not destroying their family unit. There are people willing to jigsaw into that set up and these extra relationships can go on for years in some cases. I don't necessarily think any of that is a bad thing, and yes, sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[NYAG]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:45 PM, snowcones said:

By love I mean real love.  The way everybody wants to be loved.

That's the way you define love. It doesn't have a set of tick boxes. Love is different things to different people, and some things that people want from a 'love partner' aren't the same as the next person. You'll have to define that so I have more to go on.

[pepperbird2]

Really, what use is "love" if you you continue to treat your spouse badly by cheating on them? I know no one wants to admit they're being "that guy/woman" who goes behind their spouse's back and is dishonest,  but it is what it is.

In this situation, does "love" even matter? If so, to who? The BS? The WS?
I've been the BS, and my husband , when he told me about the affair, said he loved me.
Looking back, at the time when he was cheating on me, I don't feel like he loved me at all, and quite frankly, I think he used that as a way to salve his own ego. he didn't want to be "that guy" the way his father had been when he had cheated on his mom, but in the end, he was. That was a very hard pill for him to swallow.

I've also been an very (physically) abusive relationship with a guy when i was a kid and didn't know any better. The question posed by the OP reminds me of the final time I saw him. Right until the last time I saw him, he insisted that he loved me. He could be telling the truth, but what value was there in that? I don't think he really planned to hurt me the way he did, it was a product of whatever psychological issues he had. The truth of the situation though is that the intent didn't matter. Maybe it made him feel better to think "I didn't plan to beat the crap out of her...it just sort of happened", but in the end, that made no difference. It was what it was.

This is why I still ask the question of does whether or not the WS loves their spouse" really matter? If so, to who and why?

[notbroken]

14 hours ago, Alpaca said:

Do you understand that many people who have been cheated on experience many of the symptoms of PTSD? What about a collapse in their self-esteem? Self-loathing? Self-blame?

How can someone deliberately cause such anguish to someone they claim to love?

Yes, I quite understand that.  BTDT and got the form of PTSD to go along with it (I was a betrayed spouse).   People are flawed.  Often the cheater doesn't think they will get caught, they are selfish and so caught up in themselves that they don't really consider that, etc.   Many cheaters believe and claim they love their spouse.  This board has quite a few examples.  I don't make excuses for them.   I think what they did was horrible, self destructive, and destroys their families and spouses.   I personally have a ZERO tolerance policy on cheating.  I am just not able to accept it and would rather split up.   That doesn't change what I believe though.   I think SOME people DO actually love the people they cheat on.   There are many reasons they might cheat - all of which are their own personal failings (lack of self control, narcissism,  etc, etc) but I can't claim to know if they love their BS or not.   I do personally know people that would say (and believe) they love the spouse they cheated on (and NO I'm not one of them - I can honestly say I have not cheated on my spouse). 

Cheaters do often fall out of love with their spouse during a longer term affair though.   They have to justify to themselves why they are doing it so they villify their spouse and convince themselves they no longer love them so they can look themselves in the mirror.   No matter what, it is a mistake to assume any of us knows what's in the mind or heart of another.  Unless you can read minds it is impossible. 

[mark clemson]

11 hours ago, Alpaca said:

I said PTSD-like symptoms.

Fair enough 🙂

[SumGuy]

19 hours ago, Marc878 said:

A mistake is something you didn’t mean to do.

An affair is a choice or decision.

An even if in their heart their intentions are not bad, actions in this case speak louder than words.

Is not like I would refuse to forgive someone who cheated on me...I just believe it would be a high bar and not a given at all for me (luckily I haven't had this situation in my life).

[Weezy1973]

19 hours ago, Alpaca said:

How can someone deliberately cause such anguish to someone they claim to love?

Cheaters don’t plan on getting caught. They are not deliberately causing anguish. 

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Cheaters don’t plan on getting caught. They are not deliberately causing anguish. 

They didn't intentionally try to keep their partner from harm either.

[MsJayne]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

This.   In order to answer the question, we should first define love.   For example, some see it as an action and other see it as a feeling.  Trying to define love would end in a circle of argument because we're talking about personal feelings and beliefs rather than facts.

Yep, exactly. I know I 'love' someone when I'm very protective of them and I'd rather something bad happen to me than them, a nurturing and nourishing thing. 'In love' is a whole other thing, that's mainly a state of self-delusion driven by hormones and too many cheesy rom-coms. Maybe the cheating thing happens when 'in love' doesn't translate in to 'love' when the honeymoon period's over and there's emotional dependence but not actual caring and empathy. 

[Lotsgoingon]

12 hours ago, usa1ah said:

Cheaters only care about themselves, what makes them happy or feel good. They don’t give a damn about the pain and suffering it causes. That is until they are caught. Then they are just upset that they got caught, trying to play it off as remorse for their deliberate behavior. 

Actually cheaters give a huge damn about the partner they betray. And they care about the kids and the views of others. Otherwise, they would just dump and divorce that partner and move on.

Cheaters fantasize that the cheating will give them some sugary candy for long enough time so that the marriage can get back on track. So many of the cheaters I know seem to cheat when they want to get through a difficult part of the marriage without facing up to the terrible problems in the marriage. Almost all of the cheaters I know had serious rage against their spouses.

And if the cheaters didn't give a damn, they wouldn't feel such anguish and shame and guilt when they are caught, when the affair gets revealed. They feel lots of anguish. 

 

[DKT3]

I agree that most cheaters care.....however,  let's not pretend that they hide and lie to preserve family.  No no, they do that to preserve themselves,  to avoid facing the consequences. 

Cheating is never, ever isolated behavior,  its usually the apex action in a lineal progression.  Meaning, behavior gets progressively worse. Some love to say anyone can get caught up. I absolutely don't believe that. 

People are predisposed to behave certain ways. Be it nature or nurture.  Example,  children with unfaithful parents are 3 times more likely to be unfaithful,  while people with certain personality disorders are extremely risky partners in terms of fidelity. 

I believe certain people will cheat no matter what and some won't cheat no matter what.

Interestingly enough,  every time I've made this statement here, someone comes along a says free will, we make choices.  True, but predisposition is real, does not mean you have too, just that you are more likely to.