Honestly, is it possible to love someone and cheat on them?

[NYAG]

12 hours ago, Alpaca said:

They didn't intentionally try to keep their partner from harm either.

That depends on the cheater. Some are deliberate self saboteurs. Some will do whatever it takes to protect their partner including ending affairs.

[NYAG]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

I agree that most cheaters care.....however,  let's not pretend that they hide and lie to preserve family.  No no, they do that to preserve themselves,  to avoid facing the consequences. 

 

I can't entirely agree with this statement. It depends enormously on the individual situation. Take the example from earlier in this thread of the married couple who've not had sex in 10 years because that aspect of their life has gone (and let's also consider that maybe we're talking about a couple in their 30s or 40s). Maybe one or both of them has that desire and needs that kind of intimacy with someone but there is a general agreement that this couple can not split because they both want to protect their kids and extended family from upheaval. Equally the couple don't 'not get on'. Their situation is comfortable, they just have little in common anymore.

Why should either or both of them spend the next 10, 20 or 30 years in enforced celibacy to keep up a pretence of normality to the outside world? Now, I would argue that this couple should have a conversation about an open relationship that gives them both a ticket to explore, but that kind of open dialogue isn't always there and the longer these situations go on for, often the harder it gets. If these two individuals get to keep their sanity and their marriage intact thus protecting and preserving their family by finding a release outside, can I argue against that?

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

 .Almost all of the cheaters I know had serious rage against their spouses.

Exactly. They actually hate the spouse and have contempt for the lover.

Cheaters disrespect everyone. The spouse, their own kids, and the lover.

Everyone is just a pawn, fools who believe thier lies. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Wiseman2

[DKT3]

Protecting your spouse means not cheating,  not cheating then keeping it secret.  Protecting your spouse is communication even if uncomfortable.  

At the root of all this is a person who is usually a selfish,  conflict avoider who feeds off outside validation.  Affairs are easy, they don't require one to expose themselves instead it allows them to reinvent themselves, to hide.

Saying that sexless marriage automatically qualifies as a green light because they don't want to have a conversation is a massive cop-out.  

For every sex starved unfaithful spouse there is a sex starved yet still faithful spouse. One of the things that people who cheat avoid is what separates the two...in that question is all the answers. Its not a bad/horrible marriage/spouse that causes Affairs, its the poor boundaries,  shortsightedness, and ability to justify those actions by the cheater. No matter the situation there is a healthier way,  a better solution. One can't jump to cheating and pretend its the only way, which we see here ALOT.

[NYAG]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Protecting your spouse means not cheating,  not cheating then keeping it secret.  Protecting your spouse is communication even if uncomfortable.  

At the root of all this is a person who is usually a selfish,  conflict avoider who feeds off outside validation.  Affairs are easy, they don't require one to expose themselves instead it allows them to reinvent themselves, to hide.

Saying that sexless marriage automatically qualifies as a green light because they don't want to have a conversation is a massive cop-out.  

For every sex starved unfaithful spouse there is a sex starved yet still faithful spouse. One of the things that people who cheat avoid is what separates the two...in that question is all the answers. Its not a bad/horrible marriage/spouse that causes Affairs, its the poor boundaries,  shortsightedness, and ability to justify those actions by the cheater. No matter the situation there is a healthier way,  a better solution. One can't jump to cheating and pretend its the only way, which we see here ALOT.

I certainly agree with some of this. Conflict avoidance and a lack of communication/unwillingness to communicate for fear of the reaction are a big factor for some but that can also just be personality type. I spent years in miserable relationships with terrible people because I am conflict avoidant and terrified of people's reactions in hostile situations. It causes me unimaginable stress. I hate rows, awkwardness and have never been taught how to deal with it so I often found it easier to stay in terrible relationships than deal with it. i still don't deal well with it, I solve the problem by remaining single most of the time. Now, if I run into hostile situations with casual partners, I just ghost them and move on. But that's me. That's my mental make up and I can't do much about it, beyond just staying single.

[Alpacalia]

5 hours ago, NYAG said:

That depends on the cheater. Some are deliberate self saboteurs. Some will do whatever it takes to protect their partner including ending affairs.

Seeing as emotions are complex, I should have stated earlier that it is not my place to speculate on whether or not people who cheat on their partners do so because they do not love their partner.

Still, I don't fully grasp your perspective, so I'll leave it to you to illustrate.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Alpaca

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Protecting your spouse means not cheating,  not cheating then keeping it secret.  Protecting your spouse is communication even if uncomfortable.  

At the root of all this is a person who is usually a selfish,  conflict avoider who feeds off outside validation.  Affairs are easy, they don't require one to expose themselves instead it allows them to reinvent themselves, to hide.

Saying that sexless marriage automatically qualifies as a green light because they don't want to have a conversation is a massive cop-out.  

Its not a bad/horrible marriage/spouse that causes Affairs, its the poor boundaries,  shortsightedness, and ability to justify those actions by the cheater.

Opinions opinions, everybody's got one.

Cheating is selfish, leaving to find someone else is selfish, proposing an open marriage is selfish if the spouse doesn't want it/only begrudingly agrees. If you're genuinely unhappy in a marriage and it's not fixable, there are only so many options. Be selfish (in some way) or suck it up.

I recently posted a list of what someone DOESN'T do their spouse by staying in a marriage. While I don't suggest people go and cheat, it was a long list. Didn't see a reasoned response, but here you are pounding the table on essentially the same points.

Those bad marriages/difficult partners don't cause cheating, but they often do cause a partner to be unhappy. At which point the partner only has so many options. One of which is to leave. But of course that breaks up the family/causes harm/IS selfish. And, in line with this thread, they MAY (in some cases) still love their partner at some level, such as loving them in a familial/LTR way (and thus be willing to tolerate some negatives) or at least be trying to do that.

[DKT3]

I no longer had any desire to post on that thread because of the hamster wheel. 

Bad marriage only option? Cheat

Terrible spouse? Cheat

Yet not so bad and Terrible to leave.  

 Gotcha 

[mark clemson]

Ok, fair enough.

So in a case where someone DOES love their partner at some level, what is the analysis of relative harm of cheating vs. up and leaving? I think that has a lot of bearing on saying whether it's possible to still love a partner but cheat.

"I'd rather cheat and take the risk of harm than do all the actual harm of leaving."

Where is the rational list where the harm of cheating actually outweighs the harm of leaving?

Seems like this question is being dodged by those who would like to say that one can't love a partner and cheat, and others. However I'm open to correction.

[Soul-shards]

7 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Protecting your spouse means not cheating,  not cheating then keeping it secret.  Protecting your spouse is communication even if uncomfortable.  

At the root of all this is a person who is usually a selfish,  conflict avoider who feeds off outside validation.  Affairs are easy, they don't require one to expose themselves instead it allows them to reinvent themselves, to hide.

Saying that sexless marriage automatically qualifies as a green light because they don't want to have a conversation is a massive cop-out.  

For every sex starved unfaithful spouse there is a sex starved yet still faithful spouse. One of the things that people who cheat avoid is what separates the two...in that question is all the answers. Its not a bad/horrible marriage/spouse that causes Affairs, its the poor boundaries,  shortsightedness, and ability to justify those actions by the cheater. No matter the situation there is a healthier way,  a better solution. One can't jump to cheating and pretend its the only way, which we see here ALOT.

You still have not explained what those "other ways" are when D is not an option due to consequences too dire to consider. Despite popular views (tand the hungry pockets of theraposts), talk/communication rarely solves such problems. People are wired to be THEM and they have needs.

If D is not an option and communication doesn't solve anything - you will see A-s as possible solutions to impossible problems. In nature something's gotta give, and nature doesn't process moral codes.

[Soul-shards]

5 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, fair enough.

So in a case where someone DOES love their partner at some level, what is the analysis of relative harm of cheating vs. up and leaving? I think that has a lot of bearing on saying whether it's possible to still love a partner but cheat.

"I'd rather cheat and take the risk of harm than do all the actual harm of leaving."

Where is the rational list where the harm of cheating actually outweighs the harm of leaving?

Seems like this question is being dodged by those who would like to say that one can't love a partner and cheat, and others. However I'm open to correction.

It's an 'all or nothing' / 'black-and-white' approach in a reality that is anything BUT.

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Cheating is selfish,

leaving to find someone else is selfish,

proposing an open marriage is selfish if the spouse doesn't want it

Agree with all of these. Divorce is difficult and unhappy.

But it's called cheating for a reason. And that is you are cheating your partner out of time, energy, money, affection, truth, dignity. Instead slinking just around feeding one's ego and personal desires.

People don't divorce because they are selfish. They divorce because the marriage is collapsing and irreparable. People cheat because they are selfish.

Cheating is like a partner embezzling in the business. They're off enjoying the perks while someone else is fooled and toils. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Wiseman2

[Seliana]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:46 PM, neowulf said:

You're entitled to your thoughts on this.

All you're going to get here are other perspectives.
  
You'll find a lot of people here who've lived through a lot of different experiences.
Some people appear to live very cut and dry lives.  That's doesn't hold true for everyone. 

Right and wrong are cut and dry. Otherwise, cheating would not involve so much deception. I think cheaters have no moral compass and can't truly love anyone as much as themselves. Pity they don't stick to each other. 

[Seliana]

On 3/15/2021 at 7:14 PM, Soul-shards said:

This.

This is the main problem with people who vilify cheaters indiscriminately, across the board. They miss the nuances, the exceptions to the rule, the cases where you can't just "talk it out" or fix through counseling, situations where divorcing is much easier said than done and would have catastrophic consequences for the entire family. If one partner cannot change to meet a need, neither can the other given up the need (irreconcilable differences), but neither can the marriage go even if the law makes it 'easy' - then sometimes, something's gotta give, and that may not be according to pristine social ethics.

I'd have more respect for people who had the gumption to speak up about their unhappiness and discuss their needs like adults. I have no respect for cowards and liars who cheat because it's easier than dealing with the fallout of dealing with their issues. Personally, I don't care about society's ethics, I have to live with my choices at the end of the day, and so do cheaters. 

[NYAG]

5 hours ago, Alpaca said:

Seeing as emotions are complex, I should have stated earlier that it is not my place to speculate on whether or not people who cheat on their partners do so because they do not love their partner.

Still, I don't fully grasp your perspective, so I'll leave it to you to illustrate.

I have known of MMs who have had no qualms in breaking off their affair once the affair partner wants more than the MM is prepared to give in the situation, because he literally has zero intention of leaving his wife or upsetting the status quo at home. I realise this doesn't signify love in the basic marital sense and is a way of compartmentalising the situation but it is a concern for their welfare (although you might also argue that he is also a conflict avoidance coward).

Also, I've heard of those that walk away permanently the second it looks like they might be found out, because the other woman is not paramount. Again, is that love or a concern for them? There are so many interpretations but I do believe an MM can control a situation because he is putting the welfare of the wife and kids and wider family first and doesn't want their lives turned up side down.

Equally I also know of an MM who has systematically cheated on his wife over and over for more than 20 years and loathes the sight of the woman. He was caught out by the wife and simply grovelled his way back into the marital home when he had his ticket out handed to him on a plate. This seems particularly evil to me but the affair partner didn't get another look in as far as I'm aware.

[neowulf]

1 hour ago, Seliana said:

Right and wrong are cut and dry. Otherwise, cheating would not involve so much deception. I think cheaters have no moral compass and can't truly love anyone as much as themselves. Pity they don't stick to each other. 

Anyone who's bothered to study ethics would tell you that's simply not true.  Morality isn't always "cut" and "dry".  
That's why we have courts and judges.  We acknowledge that the written law isn't enough to achieve justice.  It has be interpreted.

Cheating may always be wrong, but I don't think the people who engage in all do it for the same reasons.

Is the women who has too much to drink and has a one night stand morally bankrupt? Or has she made a terrible mistake?

Is the man who sleeps with his co-worker after years of sexual rejection in his marriage a monster?  Or is his wife for expecting him to remain faithful, while ignoring his needs?
Why is his need for sex less important than her need for a committed marriage?  

When I speak about these situations, I'm not absolving these people.  They're behaving terribly. 

I'm simply saying that it's possible to love someone, yet behave in a way that hurts them.
And we all hurt the people we love eventually.  It's human nature.

Edited March 18, 2021 by neowulf

[Uruktopi]

5 hours ago, DKT3 said:

I no longer had any desire to post on that thread because of the hamster wheel. 

Bad marriage only option? Cheat

Terrible spouse? Cheat

Yet not so bad and Terrible to leave.  

 Gotcha 

I hope you will go on posting as I will. 

There HAVE to be some voices that sound different than the hamster wheel culture and worldview.

[Uruktopi]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I'd rather cheat and take the risk of harm than do all the actual harm of leaving."

Where is the rational list where the harm of cheating actually outweighs the harm of leaving?

 

Rationalism miss both what formal logic and what the material reality are.

Cheating is not a risk of harm.  Known or not IS the harm in itself.

Leaving may be and usually is a source of pain. As the removal of a cancerous tumor.

[DKT3]

6 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, fair enough.

So in a case where someone DOES love their partner at some level, what is the analysis of relative harm of cheating vs. up and leaving? I think that has a lot of bearing on saying whether it's possible to still love a partner but cheat.

"I'd rather cheat and take the risk of harm than do all the actual harm of leaving."

Where is the rational list where the harm of cheating actually outweighs the harm of leaving?

Seems like this question is being dodged by those who would like to say that one can't love a partner and cheat, and others. However I'm open to correction.

You are actually supporting my opinion. 

Cheaters really don't want to leave, the marriage and spouse isn't really all that bad for most of them. Always an exception,  but reading here you would think its the rule.

 

 

[mark clemson]

^^ Perhaps in part, but that's one of what appears to be several related opinions. How about the rest?

Still not seeing an actual answer to the point I'm actually making (see list below). I'm starting to feel like perhaps you don't have one? But you tell me.

I'm going to posit (at the moment) that the benefits for the BS of cheating outweigh the negatives. That's based on the list.

I feel I must be off course somewhere, but when I actually list out the points, I'm seeing a different picture. I'm happy to be shown that I'm wrong, as it seems awfully weird to me to be able to tell someone it's to their BS's relative benefit (and so arguably more loving) to cheat rather than leaving.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

 

Here's what you did (by cheating):

Do something without their knowledge/awareness that (presumably) would greatly upset your spouse.

Devoted some emotional attention outside the marriage (level will vary, and it's been pointed out that some WS's act more loving during an affair).

Risked their discovery of the above.

 

Here's what you didn't do (by not divorcing):

Actually cause them the emotional harm of divorce.

Actually cause them the emotional harm of telling them you no longer love them (IF that's actually the case).

Greatly disrupt their life and cause them to need to deal with lawyers, make new living arrangements, etc.

Greatly disrupt their social life (in many cases).

Greatly disrupt their finances (in the majority of cases).

Negatively impact their children (who are also yours) emotionally.

Negatively impact their children (who are also yours) financially (in the majority of cases).

Cause them to need to seek new arrangements for child supervision in many cases, e.g. if they work or have other obligations.

 

Points to add (either list)?? Can the top list outweigh the bottom one? Doesn't seem like it right now, but again I'm perfectly willing to be shown I'm wrong.

Edited March 19, 2021 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

Known or not IS the harm in itself.

Leaving may be and usually is a source of pain. As the removal of a cancerous tumor.

You're entitled to your view of course. I see it differently, but certainly your view is reasonable/cogent.

However, see my list in the post immed. above. It seems leaving is worse for the BS than cheating. It follows that cheating would be more loving to the BS than leaving. Feel free to add (reasonable and logical) points to either list if you wish.

[Uruktopi]

13 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

^^ Perhaps in part, but that's one of what appears to be several related opinions. How about the rest?

Still not seeing an actual answer to the point I'm actually making (see list below). I'm starting to feel like perhaps you don't have one? But you tell me.

I'm going to posit (at the moment) that the benefits for the BS of cheating outweigh the negatives. That's based on the list.

I feel I must be off course somewhere, but when I actually list out the points, I'm seeing a different picture. I'm happy to be shown that I'm wrong, as it seems awfully weird to me to be able to tell someone it's to their BS's relative benefit (and so arguably more loving) to cheat rather than leaving.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

 

Here's what you did (by cheating):

Do something without their knowledge/awareness that (presumably) would greatly upset your spouse.

Devoted some emotional attention outside the marriage (level will vary, and it's been pointed out that some WS's act more loving during an affair).

Risked their discovery of the above.

 

Here's what you didn't do (by not divorcing):

Actually cause them the emotional harm of divorce.

Actually cause them the emotional harm of telling them you no longer love them (IF that's actually the case).

Greatly disrupt their life and cause them to need to deal with lawyers, make new living arrangements, etc.

Greatly disrupt their social life (in many cases).

Greatly disrupt their finances (in the majority of cases).

Negatively impact their children (who are also yours) emotionally.

Negatively impact their children (who are also yours) financially (in the majority of cases).

Cause them to need to seek new arrangements for child supervision in many cases, e.g. if they work or have other obligations.

 

Points to add (either list)?? Can the top list outweigh the bottom one? Doesn't seem like it right now, but again I'm perfectly willing to be shown I'm wrong.

You are equating the harm with the pain.

 "What you don't know won't hurt you" is in the core of wayward thought.

.......just to begin with

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Uruktopi

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

But it's called cheating for a reason. And that is you are cheating your partner out of time, energy, money, affection, truth, dignity. Instead slinking just around feeding one's ego and personal desires.

People don't divorce because they are selfish. They divorce because the marriage is collapsing and irreparable. People cheat because they are selfish.

Cheating is like a partner embezzling in the business. They're off enjoying the perks while someone else is fooled and toils. 

Hmm. This is ancillary to the point I was making. See the list three posts up for what I was getting at. Happy to have you add/consider points for either list.

I DO respect your view. Your characterization is ONE way to put it. Despite the anger one might (understandably) feel at a Discovery, another way to put it would be that both partners continued to enjoy most of the benefits of the marriage, with some loss, primarily of emotional support for the BS. (This is without discovery.)

I will respectfully disagree about why people leave (as a generalization). They can leave because they're unhappy. They can leave because they're bored with their partner or with their life and "want a fresh start" and/or to experience something new like move to a new country or have developed different goals from their partner (e.g. deciding they want to move to Alaska). There are in actuality all sorts of reasons why people divorce.

If your partner at least wants you to stay, then then the marriage isn't broken enough for them to be done. In those cases, it's always at least somewhat selfish to leave.

Edited March 19, 2021 by mark clemson

[Uruktopi]

17 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

You're entitled to your view of course. I see it differently, but certainly your view is reasonable/cogent.

However, see my list in the post immed. above. It seems leaving is worse for the BS than cheating. It follows that cheating would be more loving to the BS than leaving. Feel free to add (reasonable and logical) points to either list if you wish.

Logic, the formal one, haves no ontological commitment (we know that since Aristotle).

While this, logic as "reaonability" is just rethoric.

The harm is in the cheating itself and not only nor mainly in the pain.

To say it in other words, apples used to fall from the tree before Newton.

Divorce (sometimes) restores something of higher value (as is for some and not few of us) than the continuity of the institutional side of marriage

Edited March 19, 2021 by Uruktopi

[mark clemson]

^^ ok, if that is so, please add the "harm" to the list in a cogent fashion that explains what the "harm" is in reasonably concrete terms (e.g. emotional damage or similar is fine, but I will say, fairly I believe, that "harm" is too vague if you can't explain more concretely what harm it is).