Can I save this marriage

[raisinbranman]

My wife (36F)and I(35M) are newlyweds. We've only been married for a couple of weeks now. But already I'm sleeping on the couch and the wife is looking to file for divorce. Yes, it's that serious. Over something so petty too. 

So my wife has never really liked my mom. When she and I first started dating (it's been 3 years now) she'd comment on how our dynamic was dysfunctional and "too close". How can you be "too close" to your mom? My mom would say comments like "no woman is good enough for my son" and that my wife wasn't coming over to the house. I lived at home at the time. My wife didn't like that. She kept instilling in me that my relationship with my mom was abnormal and probably contributed to why I had never had a girlfriend before her. My wife was my first and only girlfriend and that didn't happen till I was 32. 

My mom and my family in general is very important to me. I let my feelings about that be known in the beginning to my now wife. So she sucked it up and started coming to family events. My mom would take jabs at my wife (then girlfriend) by saying little things like calling her [****] for not trying a certain food, asking her if her cooking is better than her own mom's cooking, telling her on more than one occasion that if she ever hurt me, she'd kill her. I know my mom. She didn't mean those things literally but my wife took it personally and made it about herself (which she does often) and got emotional about it (which she also does VERY often)

Anyway, fast forward to now. My wife says that she can't stand the sight of me and that she wants nothing to do with me bc my mom has continued to make comments and yell and curse at my wife and I when she's drunk. She (my wife) has been telling me that I need to set boundaries with my mom and that I need to defend her more. But I've said things to my mom. She told my wife that she calls everyone retarted but still my wife can't seem to get over it! 

The past few nights she's been crying uncontrollably and telling me she's in so much emotional pain. But I don't know what to do. She accuses me of being a psychopath bc she says I don't comfort her when she's crying but how can I? What does she want from me? I tell her I love her and it's not like that but she keeps crying and telling me how unhappy she is. She also says that if she had somewhere to go, she'd leave. She asked me to leave her and go stay with my parents for a couple of months while she recovers her finances, gets back on her feet and is able to move out. But I don't want that. I want to be independent. And why should I have to move out? I'm trying to make this marriage work but clearly my wife isn't. She said she's emotionally exhausted and can't do it anymore and that in order to maintain her sanity, she needs to go. 

See, my wife grew up with an absent father and a narcissistic mother. Her mother was neglectful and in turn it turned her into an emotional mess. She's come along way though through therapy and self reflection. She's very self aware. Something she says I need to be. She says that I need to remove myself from the situation with my family and become the observer so I can see the abuse and emotional blackmail she places on me bc I just don't see it. She's been saying for the past 3 years that my mom reminds her of HER mom and that my mom is a narcissist. But my mom wasn't neglectful. I just think my wife doesn't want to feel alone in having a f***ed up parent but I just can't see my mom in that light bc she's always been there for me. 

Last night I was at my parents house bc I'm trying to be more insightful and shed more light on this like my wife has asked. I wanted to inquire about my childhood and why I can't express my emotions to my wife. But from what my parents explained, it sounded like a normal childhood. Yes, I got hit at times but I know they were just disciplining me. I don't see the connection of narcissism although I can agree that my mom CAN possess this air of bravado or 'nose up in the air' kind of attitude but she just has self confidence which is a good thing.

So while I'm at my parents last night, my wife texts me a list of all the ways my mom has hurt her or indicators that she's a narcissist. I don't know. This is the list if you care to read it:

-Wanted to come with us to sign the lease when we first moved in together. 

-Wanted keys to our first place together. 

-Said her son moving to another state would be over her dead body. 

-Wanted better seating tickets to see the rockettes than the seats he got me for Christmas

-Has called me [****] for not wanting to try calamari

-Has made subtle jabs at me like "I'll teach you how to fold towels" or asking me if her corn beef was better than my moms

-Gets upset when we don't want to come over or go out with them to dinner

-Gives the silent treatment

-She's very rigid in her own relationship. Won't take a walk with her husband, step foot in a mall or a fast food restaurant. It's all about HER and what SHE wants. Forget about her husband. His desires don't matter to her bc those things are so beneath her. 

-Grounded her son for a month when he was a kid bc he didn't make his bed 

-Expects us to spend every single holiday with their side of the family and tells us "that's the way they are" and we're just expected to get used to it

-We're not allowed to start our own traditions

-Anytime either of us mention a dream of something we'd like she, and your dad, will say "no, that's not what you want" and shut down what we want 

-I'm not allowed to spend holidays with my mom or MY side of the family. Every holiday and event has to be spent with their side of the family bc they're Italian so they're better than any other race according to her

-When your Uncle came over to visit, the first thing he said to me is "it's important that we keep the family together" as if grooming me to their bizarre programming of the family you come from is your be all end all and that anyone that marries into that has to conform to their warped reality of what a family is.

-Yells at us like we're children and tells us we better not be hiding anything from her when we decide we wanna move in together at 34

-Curses and yells at us

-She's always right there with her I told you sos when something goes wrong to us

-We're expected to do everything the way their family does it bc according to his mom, "this is the way WE do things" and so it HAS to be done as such. Including the way WE want to get married, the way WE want to raise our kids, and the way WE choose to live our lives. 

-Had to see the condo we picked before we finalized on it bc "mother knows best"

-He said no to having a civil union in spite me needing his insurance to get a mammogram bc he was afraid of disappointing his family.

-When he finally decided we COULD have a civil union after all, he had to run the reason by every single member of his family (some even not family) bc he knew they would ask why. So he sacrificed my personal info in order to appease them 

-When I told his mom I found a lump in my breast her response was "oh great. Something else to worry about" when I told you, you didn't seem to care  

-Everything is chalked up to "oh that's just mom" or "that's just [****]" or "it's the drinking that makes her that way" but no one says anything to her out of fear so they enable her behavior

-Tells me she's surprised I don't like cilantro since I'm Puerto Rican

-Anytime you tell her how she's being mean or rude to me she downplays it by making it seem like I'M too sensitive and that's how she talks to everyone, not just me. And that I should be flattered that she considers me one of them 

-She's told [****] no woman is good enough for her son and that I'm not coming over to her house right before we met

-When she met another girl that you liked before me she said to her "where the [****] do you think you're going?" 

-She cried when you moved out even though you were 32

-Her and some family were traveling outside their home state and stopped outside a cracker barrel. They didn't have or allow alcohol in so she got upset and waited outside in the car while the rest of the family sat inside and ate

-She gets upset if someone calls her out and she'll either yell and curse at them or give them the silent treatment

-She would constantly tell me that if I hurt her son, she'd kill me

-Anytime we're around your parents and you walk away they secretly gang up on me and ask why we don't come around often and ask if I'm not letting him come over

-She blames me when you don't answer the phone for her

-She and also your cousin has said I'm taking you away from the family

-She told me you chose me over the family even though I never asked you to choose. I just asked for boundaries. 

-You told me she went crazy when she found your brothers girlfriends things in her house. She threw them in a garbage bag and threatened to call the cops. Seems to be a recurring pattern of her sons can't have their own lives. 

-She gets even more rude and abrasive when she drinks and she drinks every single day

-When she was at our house, she left when the alcohol ran out. She said she'd stay longer if we could go get her more wine 

-She can't take criticism and thinks she's always 
right

-Back when we were dating and you still lived at home, you got sick. I went over there to take care of you. She yelled at me that you're HER son and that she'll take care of you.

-Anytime I tell her something that you did for me (cooked me dinner, folded the laundry) and how good you are at it, she takes credit it for it

-She takes credit for you going on a diet, for you cooking, for you folding laundry. Any normal activity or mundane chore you performe is somehow attributed to her amazing parenting skills 

-She gets mad when you do things around our house bc you didn't help HER when you lived at home 

-She's always looking for a reason to complain when we go out. She'll complain to a waitress if she thinks the table is too dirty. She'll complain that the restaurant is too cold and demand to be seated next to the fireplace. One time when we were out for Valentine's day together 🙄 she complained bc they seated her facing a wall. We couldn't enjoy our night until I switched seats with her so she could overlook the restaurant and place judgement upon everyone. 

-She told me for Halloween she always dresses up as the queen from maleficent bc she IS a queen

-She opens your mail even though you don't live there anymore. You don't seem to care. But it bothers ME bc it's indicative of how controlling she is of you. She just won't let you have your own life. 

-She has a very inflated ego.

-And the sad part is, there's lots more. This is all I remember off the top of my head. And no one, absolutely NO ONE in that family stands up to her or sets boundaries. Now do you see why I wanna leave? 

-She is insufferable. I just can't. 

While I can agree with everything on the list bc I know how my mom can be, I will also say that I think my wife interprets it the wrong way and takes it too personal. She warned me in the beginning that people always told her she was too sensitive but not being able to let these things go is just silly to me. My family is important to me. I've told my mom to not say mean things to her anymore but she still does here and there so what can I do? I can't control my mom's behavior. My wife has asked me if it was ok if she wasn't around my family. She's never demanded I stop seeing them. She says it's my choice. But she asked how important it was that SHE be around my family. I told her they're important to me (especially my mom) and that if she couldn't be around them that would be a problem. And now here we are with me sleeping on the couch. 

Tldr; my wife thinks I put my family's feelings over hers and it's causing a rift 

Edited March 20, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Language and personal information

[Wiseman2]

Is this an arranged marriage? Why did you marry?

[MsJayne]

Your mother is the problem. She's a thoroughly unpleasant person and your wife is absolutely correct - you need to set boundaries with your mother. 

[neowulf]

49 minutes ago, raisinbranman said:

Tldr; my wife thinks I put my family's feelings over hers and it's causing a rift 

Your mother is exhibiting extremely controlling behaviour and you are enabling her.

It may seem normal to you, but as you can see, it can be pretty destructive to your other personal relationships.

So, the question you need to ask yourself, is;

• Am I willing to put my wife and our marriage ahead of my mother?
• If I'm not willing to do that, am I as committed to this marriage as I thought?
• Would I be willing to turn my back on my family, if they were unable to accept healthy boundaries?

Honestly, this problem is something that belongs in a marriage counsellors office, not on an internet forum.

Please think about seeking professional help with this.

[raisinbranman]

We became engaged in October and married March 1st. We did a civil union bc she found a lump in her breast and didn't have insurance so she needed mine to get it checked out. I said no at first bc it wasn't ideal for me. I wanted a traditional wedding and a part of me didn't want to disappoint my family bc they're very traditional but eventually my wife convinced me that we could have a civil ceremony now and an actual wedding later and that it was more important to get her checked out to possibly save her life. I told my family bc I knew they'd ask why we're going the unconventional route and my wife is mad at me about THAT too bc she said it was her personal business and they didn't need to know. But she knows I'm close with my family and they care about her. According to her though, it wasn't my place to tell them something so personal without asking her first. 

[raisinbranman]

@neowulf I asked my wife if we could try couples counseling before we jumped to divorce. She said no bc she's been telling me this for 3 years and I haven't changed. But I'm in therapy now for myself. I just don't know if it'll change her mind. She keeps telling me to continue the therapy for myself, not us. That she's too emotionally exhausted and she needs to do more work on herself bc this is stressing her out and setting her back from all the progress she's made after overcoming her own mother's narcissistic abuse. She also seems to think that I only want to fix it with her just to avoid the taboo of telling my family we're divorcing rather than wanting to fix it for her

[neowulf]

11 minutes ago, raisinbranman said:

@neowulf I asked my wife if we could try couples counseling before we jumped to divorce. She said no bc she's been telling me this for 3 years and I haven't changed. But I'm in therapy now for myself. I just don't know if it'll change her mind. She keeps telling me to continue the therapy for myself, not us. That she's too emotionally exhausted and she needs to do more work on herself bc this is stressing her out and setting her back from all the progress she's made after overcoming her own mother's narcissistic abuse. She also seems to think that I only want to fix it with her just to avoid the taboo of telling my family we're divorcing rather than wanting to fix it for her

My friend, I am so sorry for your situation.  From your comments about your wife's behaviour... she kind of sounds a bit narcissistic and controlling herself.

Marriages don't fix themselves in a vacuum.  It sounds like your wife has bullied you your entire relationship, much like your own mother has.  Your wife refusing to attend counselling says she's not really committed to saving the marriage either.

Take the marriage for example.  You wanted a traditional marriage.  That mattered to you, but hey  no compromise here.  Just make the wife happy.
See what I'm saying?  You married your mother.  You've ended up in a relationship with a woman who appears to share a very similar psychological profile to your Mum.

Please continue with the counselling on your own.  Hopefully it'll help you to start to recognise boundary violations and learn how to cope with setting them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/how-help-friend/201711/why-is-it-important-have-personal-boundaries
 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by neowulf

[basil67]

Your wife is right - couple's counselling isn't going to fix your mother's abuse, nor will it fix you enabling your mother to do so.    While you choose to put your wife in situations where she must endure the abuse, the couch is where you will stay.

[raisinbranman]

@neowulf thank you. I really appreciate it. I don't know if I'd say my wife is a narcissist though. She's actually one of, if not the most, sweetest and most generous people I've ever met. It's just that when it comes to my mom, she thinks I don't stand up for her enough. Maybe that makes her controlling. But she always encourages me to get more in touch with my spiritual side and self growth so that I can make my own decisions without any outside influence, even from her. 

As far as the marriage yes I would have preferred something traditional. That's why I said no to her when she found a lump in her breast bc that was something I wasn't willing to compromise. That was about two months ago. She noticed the lump wasn't going away with her cycles and she got more worried and asked why don't we just do it now so she can at least get it checked out through my insurance and we'd have a traditional wedding later. So I guess in that way we DID compromise haha

[raisinbranman]

@basil67 abuse is kind of a strong word. She teases everyone like that. It's just her personality. And my wife DID tell me that she was always considered "too sensitive" growing up. 

[trident_2020]

The relationship you describe with your mother is so extremely dysfunctional that I have a hard time believing it's true.

I feel bad for your wife

[raisinbranman]

@trident_2020 my wife has been telling me this since we started dating. It's not THAT bad, is it? This is all I've ever known. I was always told that the family is supposed to stay together. I.e, my parents, brother, aunts uncles and cousins. And anyone that marries into our family has to be ok with that. I never saw this is as abnormal and I've rejected the idea that it's not normal bc I can't wrap my brain around it not being so. I don't have many friends (just one, really) so this is the only life I know. The only "outsider" that's ever come in is my now wife but she's the only woman I've ever been with so I don't have any other frame of reference. My aunts and uncles have married and had kids but their spouses have all accepted our dynamic and become a part of it. My wife is the only one that seems to rebel against it. I think that's why my mom sees her as such a threat and says what she says to her. Hence the "she's taking you away from the family" remarks

Edited March 20, 2021 by raisinbranman

[basil67]

Yes, it really is that bad.  And it truly is abusive.  

 

[trident_2020]

12 minutes ago, raisinbranman said:

@trident_2020 my wife has been telling me this since we started dating. It's not THAT bad, is it?

Are you one of those people that keeps asking the same question hoping for different answers because they don't like the ones they already got?

Sure sounds like it.

 

[Lotsgoingon]

Yes, your mother is terrible for your marriage and your wife is absolutely right. Just a few of the examples she provided would be sufficient to want dump you. I couldn't the next line was worse than the previous one. And your wife is right on all of them. 

You're acting a three-year-old, who needs permission from your mother to do something. An adult acts in their best interest and realizes mom and dad may have a different view and they're OK with that. 

Dude, you're in therapy and still can't see how controlling your mom is? Fire the therapist. Either you're not telling the therapist what is going on. Or you have totally incompetent therapist. You were not ready to be married. You have not individuated enough, you have separated enough from your birth family in order to form a new family. 

People get married to form a new bond with their partner and a new family. You're treating your mother like a second wife. In fact, you're treating her like a first wife and your legal wife as your second.

I knew you were lost when you asked "can someone be too close to them mom?" Of course! Happens all the time. One of the biggest disrupters of marriage is when one partner has too close a relationship to the mom, and a controlling mom in your case. 

You need leave home first and do that for several years then think about getting married. You skipped a step. 

If her mom talked to you the way your mom talks to her, you would be miserable. Insanely miserable. And if her mom insisted you do all family events with her then you would see how unreasonable your mother's request is.

BTW: of course your parents were NOT going to admit to their flaws. So you are so locked into approval of your mom that you thought your mom would be a fair judge of her controlling nature. 

If you want to be married to this new woman, you need to break up with your mom. 

Google "individuation." You need to go through that process.

Quote: Individuation is the process that occurs when a young adult grows into a separate self and defines who he or she is as an individual, different from how he or she has been seen as part of the family. https://www.verywellfamily.com/individuation-and-young-adults-4051093

Here's another article on how failure to individuate disrupts romantic relationships and marriages.https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-24867/the-single-most-destructive-factor-in-your-search-for-real-love.html

 

 

 

 

[raisinbranman]

20 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Dude, you're in therapy and still can't see how controlling your mom is? Fire the therapist. Either you're not telling the therapist what is going on. Or you have totally incompetent therapist. You were not ready to be married. You have not individuated enough, you have separated enough from your birth family in order to form a new family. 

I appreciate the reply. Truth be told, I've only been in therapy for a few weeks now, so we're still working through things. Plus, I'm seeing two therapists virtually for the time being.

[raisinbranman]

@LotsgoingonI appreciate the reply and the articles. The thing is, I was always encouraged to stay at home as long as I needed. In fact I was made to feel guilty for ever leaving "the family" - anyone in my family that has gotten married, their partner has integrated into OUR family and thus attend all family holidays and events. So this is all I've known as 'normal' - I've never dated before my wife or saw the world, different views, cultures, types of people. My only friend still lives at home with his mom so this has always seemed like the norm. Just what you do. My family (my mom especially) has always enforced that this is the way it's SUPPOSED to be. Now with my wife being an outsider she's been telling me it ISN'T normal since we first met. My mom kept telling her this is how WE do things but my wife has always rejected those conditionings. I think my mom saw her as a threat that she's taking her son away. She's said that on more than one occasion. My cousin has too bc it's been so engrained in us that this is how it's supposed to be. I guess apart of me worries that if I go off and live my own life, my family will disown me. I don't know how to cope with that. I see it happening NOW when we do say no to some events (bc we do) my family will get upset. They'll ask why aren't we coming? Or in the case where it's a family event and my wife opts out and I still have to go, they ask where she is. Then the next time we see them together, they're kind of bitter towards my wife for having missed the last event. I find myself lying to them a lot about why she's not there. Usually it's that she's sick. My wife tells me to tell them the truth of WHY she doesn't want to be around them but I find it's easier to keep the peace by just lying. 

I know all of this may sound immature but this is all still new to me and I'm trying to adjust. 

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, raisinbranman said:

I see it happening NOW when we do say no to some events (bc we do) my family will get upset. They'll ask why aren't we coming? Or in the case where it's a family event and my wife opts out and I still have to go, they ask where she is. Then the next time we see them together, they're kind of bitter towards my wife for having missed the last event. I find myself lying to them a lot about why she's not there. Usually it's that she's sick. My wife tells me to tell them the truth of WHY she doesn't want to be around them but I find it's easier to keep the peace by just lying. 

I know all of this may sound immature but this is all still new to me and I'm trying to adjust. 

Not going to family events is exactly what I was going to suggest is required to protect your wife.  A strong husband would tell his mother EXACTLY whey they aren't attending and make it clear they will not attend any events while the behaviour is ongoing.  The strong husband would also insist on an apology from the mother.   

 

[Weezy1973]

When married your wife comes first. Before anybody. You’re a team. 

[Lotsgoingon]

I hear you man, you are courageously honest here.

I think you can see your separation from your family as a project. Think of it as something that might take a decade or more. Now, here's the thing: most of us would be MISERABLE to stay as close to our families are you are to yours. So it's partly the misery that leads us to separate.

And other parents (not your mom) actually encourage their children to go off and separate and live differently. These parents realize that having an independent kid (who can take care of themself) requires ... an independent kid, one who makes decisions without checking in with mom. 

Just know: it's REALLY unfair to expect your wife to join YOUR family. You might be from a land that is more traditional than what I grew up in. 

If you're happy with being this close to your mom, then continue on. It's up to you. Your wife made a mistake, it seems, in thinking you would suddenly turn away from your family. 

I gotta say: you sound really sincere and open-minded. So you seem like a good person. Now, it's up to you to think about how you want to live. I will tell you this and this is helpful for you to know: I wouldn't go within ten miles of someone as close to their family as you are to yours. And my mother and father raised me not to go within ten smiles of a partner that close to their family. And if your wife were close to her mom and her mom were better functioning, her mom would have warned her against marrying you. 

BTW: there is often a sexist element of this dynamic. Where the mother of the son puts down the wife, competes with the wife and always sides with her son. My parents--if I did something wrong with a spouse--they didn't believe in siding with me. Yes, they would continue to love me, but they believed their ultimate loyalty was to kindness and fairness and honesty.  My mother saw ironically that a mom acting like your mom (sorry to say this) in defense of a son was one way that women (the wife of the son) got mistreated and disrespected in marriage. 

This isn't all your fault. Your wife made a mistake in thinking you were more separated than you are. That's her mistake. 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, raisinbranman said:

While I can agree with everything on the list bc I know how my mom can be, I will also say that I think my wife interprets it the wrong way and takes it too personal. She warned me in the beginning that people always told her she was too sensitive but not being able to let these things go is just silly to me.

That's a pretty long list. TBH if I felt this way about my (prospective) MIL and/or she did 1/4 of this stuff regularly I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten married in the first place (unless maybe she lived across the country and was only there at holidays or something).

While I don't recommend people divorce, I totally get why your wife doesn't want to hang around. I think she made a mistake getting married and now realizes that.

Sorry, but I think you're going to have to consider choosing between them or the choice may made for you, which appears to be how it's shaping up.

Edited March 21, 2021 by mark clemson

[raisinbranman]

I

39 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

 This isn't all your fault. Your wife made a mistake in thinking you were more separated than you are. That's her mistake. 

I did tell her that I could be separated from my family, although I knew it wouldn't be easy. I've told her that I'm open to moving away from my family, even to a different state. We both have dreams of living out in the middle of nowhere in some flyover state, way away from my family. In fact, my cousin's husband was offered a job in California (we live in NJ) years ago, and she came to me and I told her she should go and not worry about being away from the family. They didn't go and that's ok because I understand wanting to still be near the family, but not at the expense or sacrifice of a great new career and the opportunity to be independent, which is reasonably scary. So to say I don't know how to separate wouldn't be accurate, but it's easier said than done.

Regardless, we did move away from my both our parents to NY, so I could be closer to my job, we could be independent from our families, and we could start our lives together. Then a year later, we got engaged and bought a house together back in NJ, so I could still be reasonably close to my job and still maintain our independence, while working towards home ownership. I know it's not the ideal situation that we both dreamed of, but for now, it's the best I could do for us given the situation and the times. 

[raisinbranman]

4 minutes ago, raisinbranman said:

In fact, my cousin's husband was offered a job in California (we live in NJ) years ago, and she came to me and I told her she should go and not worry about being away from the family

This cousin actually made a sh**ty comment at the very start of our relationship regarding an Instagram comment my then-girlfriend and her friend had between them. She added her to Instagram, found this comment, said she "sounds like a prostitute" and then deleted her. 

All these things have made her feel pushed away, and rightfully so, and this is where my utter lack of experience has come to haunt almost every aspect this relationship. My lack of ability and knowledge of how to establish healthy boundaries has escaped me because I never knew how or even when to establish them and it clearly shows.

[Lotsgoingon]

You can learn to set boundaries with mom. Will take time ... give yourself time ... as in years. You can learn to set better boundaries with mom. 

[Dis]

What?!

 

And you think your wife is the problem?

 

Your mom is the problem and if I were you're wife I never would've married you in the first place if you were still living at home and allowed your own mom to speak to me the way she did to your girlfriend/now wife

 

And yes, there IS something as a son being too close to his mom. Men need to be independent and self sufficient for women to respect them. If they're still under mommy's thumb we lose attraction as well a respect and we do so quickly. 

 

Time to level up, put your mom in her place and start showing your wife the respect she deserves