Hypergamy. why 'good'men get left behind?

[Trail Blazer]

27 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

I'm aware that a plumber who owns his own business can do quite well.  That is why I used plumbing apprentice in my example.

Every pumber who owns his own busienss was an apprentice at some stage.  I do get your point, but I might have said someone who stacks shelves at Home Depot or is a cashier at Walmart as a more apt example.

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Trail Blazer said:

Every pumber who owns his own busienss was an apprentice at some stage.  I do get your point, but I might have said someone who stacks shelves at Home Depot or is a cashier at Walmart as a more apt example.

OK... no problem.  I concede your example is actually better than mine.

So substitute "Home Depot Clerk" or "Walmart Greeter" into the comparison vs. the cardiologist, the results will be the same.

[normal person]

13 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Some of us, have had parents that support higher education and give you a "leg up", some direction, some financial support, assistance, encouragement, etc. 

I did not...

Fair, but some of those people still became cardiologists despite not having those things. And what I don't think you're acknowledging is that plenty of people who did have a leg up wouldn't be able to become cardiologists because it's too hard, demanding, etc. So is there no "quality" in the people who can do the hard, demanding work that other people can't, for whatever reason?

I understand your frustration with women who want high achieving men who coincidentally make a lot of money, but it also seems like you're discounting the work and sacrifice a lot of people have made to get to where they are. 

[Trail Blazer]

2 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... no problem.  I concede your example is actually better than mine.

So substitute "Home Depot Clerk" or "Walmart Greeter" into the comparison vs. the cardiologist, the results will be the same.

What happens when the guy working a menial job on minimum wage buys a lotto ticket and becokesa millionaire?  Is he all of a sudden extremely attractive?  Maybe to gold diggers... but that's all!

The women you want to attract are the women who don't find you attractive because you just so happen to be in abundance of a pecuniary commodity.  The women you want to attract are the one's who value the aspects of you which enable you to earn.

So, that guy who won the lotto didn't earn it, he won it.  Good for him, but he's still the same guy who isn't very intelligent or resourceful.  He just found himself acquiring such wealth by sheer dumb luck.

Correct me if I'm wrong, ladies, but is it not everything about a guy that enables him to earn good money attractive to you, rather than the money itself?  The money itself is just a bonus, right?

[jspice]

59 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, ladies, but is it not everything about a guy that enables him to earn good money attractive to you, rather than the money itself?  The money itself is just a bonus, right?

Yes. 
Ambition, drive, hard work are important. Money alone means nothing. 
 

 

[Miss Spider]

It’s hard to say. I’m not the best person to ask. See my thread where I went on a date with a homeless guy. That’s part of why I asked the question. Because it’s interesting to me where these things overlap and where things seem to be in a category of their own.  We see often that wealthy people are also often intelligent and resourceful, but this is not always the case. It is actually sometimes a convincing illusion.  When I see someone with A LOT of money I sometimes automatically equate them with someone that is successful/ resourceful. When they could’ve just won the lottery or inherited it. I think the fact that they even have that money can be very attractive to a lot of women. Especially women who are... “highly hypergamous” The lifestyle that comes with that also could create certain traits. For example, a guy that’s born into wealth might seem more carefree and confident than a guy who has worked hard but is struggling financially. Then there are different kinds of intelligent and resourceful. Someone gave an example of an ex-boyfriend who was successful, but she did not feel a connection with him because he was kind of… Dull. Book smart, but not the type of smart that she was into. Oh yea and I have friends who date borderline  deadbeats  but they find them physically attractive

I’m not really sure. But I appreciate all the answers here. They are very interesting and something to ponder.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Alvi]

2 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

In my example a plumbing assistant will work hard, he can be persistent about going to work and learning his trade and he will have some intelligence.

But if he tries to compete with a cardiologist for a woman's affection, he doesn't stand a ghost of a chance...

But maybe if he works hard and earns and saves money wisely, he can open his open his own plumbing company one day. If he really is a good plumber,  he is going to be in a very high demand and can earn in a six figures easily. He can describe his own company and how people work for him to any of his future potential dates. Not saying that a cardiologist and a plumber sound the same but something to think about maybe. My relative, when he came to the country, worked as a painter for years. He was painting people's houses for years and working for others and earning very good living doing so. But sometimes down the road he became his own very successful boss possibly earning on the same level as a cardiologist. His son quit his very prestigious journalist job and now earns way more as a furnace installer. 

[jspice]

8 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

It’s hard to say. I’m not the best person to ask. See my thread where I went on a date with a homeless guy. That’s part of why I asked the question. Because it’s interesting to me where these things overlap and where things seem to be in a category of their own.  We see often that wealthy people are also often intelligent and resourceful, but this is not always the case. It is actually sometimes a convincing illusion.  When I see someone with A LOT of money I sometimes automatically equate them with someone that is successful/ resourceful. When they could’ve just won the lottery or inherited it. I think the fact that they even have that money can be very attractive to a lot of women. Especially women who are... “highly hypergamous” The lifestyle that comes with that also could create certain traits. For example, a guy that’s born into wealth might seem more carefree and confident than a guy who has worked hard but is struggling financially. Then there are different kinds of intelligent and resourceful. Someone gave an example of an ex-boyfriend who was successful, but she did not feel a connection with him because he was kind of… Dull. Book smart, but not the type of smart that she was into. Then there is the whole term “social status”  in and of itself. A lot of things could be taken into account with that. Notorious serial  killers have a form of social status.
 

I’m not really sure. But I appreciate all the answers here. They are very interesting and something to ponder.

You’re also in a different phase of your life. If you’re in your twenties (broke student) dating a homeless man might have a certain appeal (maybe “rescuing” him?).

In my early 40s a “project” has no appeal whatsoever.  
I’ve dated a few men who were in the military and a couple retired. They were pretty high ranking but after retiring (they were mid to late 40s) they were financially set to not have to work. I saw them in a totally different light. I couldn’t stand them not having a job anymore. 
 

whatever attraction had  been lingering just disappeared. 

[Miss Spider]

10 minutes ago, jspice said:

You’re also in a different phase of your life. If you’re in your twenties (broke student) dating a homeless man might have a certain appeal (maybe “rescuing” him?).

In my early 40s a “project” has no appeal whatsoever.  
I’ve dated a few men who were in the military and a couple retired. They were pretty high ranking but after retiring (they were mid to late 40s) they were financially set to not have to work. I saw them in a totally different light. I couldn’t stand them not having a job anymore. 
 

whatever attraction had  been lingering just disappeared. 

Yea that could be . Also I wasn’t dating him to like, get married to him  or anything. I knew I would probably only go on a couple dates. It was more curiosity, fun, interesting than anything else.
 

I get what you mean about that & I totally get what you mean by losing attraction when they didn’t have a job. I have friends like that too

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Allupinnit]

I dated a rich guy who lived off a trust fund and couldn't stand him after two months.  He thought studying for the bar exam counted as a job.  I'd go to his place after work and he'd still be in sweat pants.  Eff that.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Allupinnit

[Miss Spider]

7 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

I dated a rich guy who lived off a trust fund and couldn't stand him after two months.  He thought studying for the bar exam counted as a job.  I'd go to his place after work and he'd still be in sweat pants.  Eff that.

Lol my ex was kind of like that, but had a job.  The one thing I do miss about it are the gifts.. His idea of gifts were really nice... even though they kind of made me feel guilty 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Weezy1973]

There really isn’t some sort of biological driver behind any of it. If a woman had a good father, she generally will be attracted to traits similar to him. In recent generations, men were the primary wage earners, and so that is likely seen as attractive/masculine. As things equal out there will be different expectations. Mostly women won’t rely on a man for money, so money won’t be as big an issue. That being said, people who think making a lot of money is important will tend to be drawn to each other because they share those values.

[poppyfields]

I dated a doctor, not a cardiologist, he worked ER, and trust me it was no great shakes.  We had great sexual chemistry but outside the bedroom, it was one huge yawn fest, way too cerebral for my liking which most doctors are for a variety of reasons.  I broke up with him after four months. We are still friends (from a distance), someone I could turn to when needed (and vice versa). 

“Quality” can mean different things to different people (women since hypergamy is the topic of this thread).  One woman’s “quality” is a bigger wallet, higher social status, successful; another woman’s “quality” might be his intelligence, intellectualism, creativity, emotional depth despite what he does for a living or how much money he makes.

To add, one reason why many women are attracted to successful men is not necessarily because success earns him a lot of $$$ but because of certain traits he possesses that caused him to become successful in the first place.  Ambition, drive, strong work ethic to name a few.

Those are very attractive qualities for a man to possess and women are drawn to them.  And yes in most cases, those traits will result in him becoming successful and wealthy but that was not the driving force.  It's not for me and many other women I know.

Ask women if they were to meet a man with a HUGE wallet, but who didn’t earn his money through his own ambition and drive but rather inherited it from family or won the lottery.  And he sat on his a$$ all day playing video games, or the like.  Do you think a woman would consider him to be of the same “quality” as the man who earned his money through hard work, ambition and drive?

I seriously doubt it.

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[Miss Spider]

19 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I dated a doctor, not a cardiologist, he worked ER, and trust me it was no great shakes.  We had great sexual chemistry but outside the bedroom, it was one huge yawn fest, way too cerebral for my liking which most doctors are for a variety of reasons.  I broke up with him after four months. We are still friends (from a distance), someone I could turn to when needed (and vice versa). 

“Quality” can mean different things to different people (women since hypergamy is the topic of this thread).  One woman’s “quality” is a bigger wallet, higher social status, successful; another woman’s “quality” might be his intelligence, intellectualism, creativity, emotional depth despite what he does for a living or how much money he makes.

To add, one reason why many women are attracted to successful men is not necessarily because success earns him a lot of $$$ but because of certain traits he possesses that caused him to become successful in the first place.  Ambition, drive, strong work ethic to name a few.

Those are very attractive qualities for a man to possess and women are drawn to them.  And yes in most cases, those traits will result in him becoming successful and wealthy but that was not the driving force.  It's not for me and many other women I know.

Ask women if they were to meet a man with a HUGE wallet, but who didn’t earn his money through his own ambition and drive but rather inherited it from family or won the lottery.  And he sat on his a$$ all day playing video games, or the like.  Do you think a woman would consider him to be of the same “quality” as the man who earned his money through hard work, ambition and drive?

I seriously doubt it.

Do you think it’s gendered ? Like men equally feel the same about women that are lazy or have no work ethic? Let’s just say that she had no job or ambition. Just liked playing video games all day long? And she wasn’t like one of the top 10 Youtubers who make crazy $ doing that 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Allupinnit]

33 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Lol my ex was kind of like that, but had a job.  The one thing I do miss about it are the gifts.. His idea of gifts were really nice... even though they kind of made me feel guilty 

Yeah this guy took me on trips, etc. but who wants to sit in New York at Christmas in front of the tree with an a-hole.

[poppyfields]

16 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Do you think it’s gendered ? Like men equally feel the same about women that are lazy or have no work ethic? Let’s just say that she had no job or ambition. Just liked playing video games all day long? And she wasn’t like one of the top 10 Youtubers who make crazy $ doing that 

Generally speaking, no I don't think men equally feel the same as women about this, but I would like to think men have certain standards and a woman who was lazy and sat around playing video games all day long with no job and no ambition would not be a woman with whom they would want to pursue a long term relationship.

A sexual casual relationship, yes!  But not a long term committed relationship.

That said, it's not black and white, I think there are men who would be okay with a woman like that as long as she provided him with what he needs and made him happy and he made enough money to support the both of them.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[Weezy1973]

35 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Do you think it’s gendered ? Like men equally feel the same about women that are lazy or have no work ethic? Let’s just say that she had no job or ambition. Just liked playing video games all day long? And she wasn’t like one of the top 10 Youtubers who make crazy $ doing that 

Like attracts like is the general rule. So a no ambition, video game loving man would love to be with a woman like that. 

[poppyfields]

28 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Like attracts like is the general rule. So a no ambition, video game loving man would love to be with a woman like that. 

Would she be attracted to a man like that though?  That's the question.

I doubt it so I think it is gender based.

p.s.  And I challenge anyone who claims to be attracted to lazy, man or woman, for something other than casual sex.

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[basil67]

5 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

So I saw a meme that showed an article with the headline “ woman marries paramedic that saved her life” and beneath that someone captioned “hypergamy doesn’t care that you saved her life”. A bunch of people commented like, “too true.” It got me thinking, to what extent is it true?

I don't understand the question.  What's the relationship between marrying a the paramedic who saved your life and hypergamy?

[basil67]

12 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

p.s.  And I challenge anyone who claims to be attracted to lazy, man or woman, for something other than casual sex.

Have a look at people who live in low socio economic communities where unemployment is multi generational.   They all keep getting married and having families.  

Being attracted to someone who's from a similar background is totally a thing.

[Miss Spider]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I don't understand the question.  What's the relationship between marrying a the paramedic who saved your life and hypergamy?

It was a supposed to half joke/half serious. Like, it doesn’t matter if you literally saved her life, she’d trade you in fir Ryan gosling or the lawyer who makes 5x  as much in a second, or something like that 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Miss Spider]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Have a look at people who live in low socio economic communities where unemployment is multi generational.   They all keep getting married and having families.  

Being attracted to someone who's from a similar background is totally a thing.

Yes but is that by choice, or “necessity”? Because being attracted to a person from a different background who has a lot  more than you is also a thing for a lot of people 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Have a look at people who live in low socio economic communities where unemployment is multi generational.   They all keep getting married and having families.  

Being attracted to someone who's from a similar background is totally a thing.

I don't dispute that, I was speaking of being attracted to lazy.  

Sitting on your arse all day playing video games for example or watching soaps (are they even still around?) eating bonbons.

I dunno, maybe you're right; I can't imagine that for myself (or anyone in my social circle) but there's a lid for every pot I suppose.

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[Happy Lemming]

19 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Like, it doesn’t matter if you literally saved her life, she’d trade you in fir Ryan gosling or the lawyer who makes 5x  as much in a second, or something like that 

That is "basically" what my sister did... left her first husband for a much bigger wallet. 

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yes but is that by choice, or “necessity”? Because being attracted to a person from a different background who has a lot  more than you is also a thing for a lot of people 

If they weren't attracted to each other, they wouldn't marry and have more babies.   I think that having similar life experiences and outlook creates much connection.

Of all my friends - from school friends to friends I've made as adults....and now my daughter and her friends, they are all ending up with people from similar backgrounds.   Of my daughter in particular, while she does want a guy who's at/graduated uni (like her).  But experience has taught her that she does not want to date the private schooled boys from the posh end of town because in terms of their outlook in life, they have nothing in common.