Hypergamy. why 'good'men get left behind?

[Dis]

Idk, I've continually dated up since I first started dating 

 

But admittedly my first ex did the the bar really really low as did I for dating him 

 

At this point, while I don't want a guy for his money, my next guy is going to be able to afford some s**t. The reason why I say that is because I have yet to date a guy who can afford vacas, dinners out, a house...along with me pitching in of course. I've always dated guys who made the bare minimum and now that I'm an RN, I'm not messing around with that. I don't need a rich dude but I need a guy who can at least match my income. 

 

I have yet to date a guy who can provide a comfortable lifestyle along with my income and the older I get, the less superficial I get but the more I understand that, yes character matters BUT.... it takes money to live a good life . When I first started dating I didn't think of any of that...big mistake

Edited March 25, 2021 by Dis

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, Dis said:

Idk, I've continually dated up since I first started dating 

I have yet to date a guy who can provide a comfortable lifestyle along with my income and the older I get, the less superficial I get but the more I understand that, yes character matters BUT.... it takes money to live a good life . When I first started dating I didn't think of any of that...big mistake

I think you might be misunderstanding the term 'dating up'.  It's not about improving your standards from the lowest of lows, but rather it's about finding a rich guy who can improve your status.

From what I read, you're simply wanting an equal.  Completely sensible on your part. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by basil67

[Caauug]

15 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

Some people argue that this is why women leave “good” guys — because they are looking for better guys. And the person that they fall for is the “best guy“ At least in their opinion and what that they can get.

And this is measured largely by social class background, income, and/or occupational prestige. 

Human Behavioral Biology or Human Nature or part of human nature. As with any part of human nature it is not absolute or 100% of the time in 100% of the people. There are always exceptions. But to say human nature or part of human nature does not exist because it hasn't affected yourself or someone you know is like ignoring facts. Most people do not like to admit they are driven by human nature.

Hypergamy is a real part of human nature, affecting females mostly... Evolution has made this a necessity for the human race to survive. Now, please understand any part of human nature may not be as strong to you or your friends as it is to other people. Different countries, different cultures, different religions will experience different parts of human nature differently. The generation you belong to and even your caste will also influence how much human nature you are willing to see. 

Money.... Resources is a better word, money is still a resource. Every Most women will have resources on the list for attraction, it may not be #1, but it will be there. Note: Younger women will be looking at the potential to earn resources in younger men. Older men should have the ducks in a row to prove he can provide...

"Good Guys", are they??? They thought they were... "Good" for who? Obviously not for women leaving them or they wouldn't be leaving them..... I touch a little on this below...

12 hours ago, jspice said:

 they were financially set to not have to work. I saw them in a totally different light. I couldn’t stand them not having a job anymore. 

 

whatever attraction had  been lingering just disappeared. 

Why???

I had the same happen to me, I had taken a supervisor's role for 3+ years, as it was at the end of the mine.  I had heaps of annual leave saved up, and at the end I got a nice redundancy package. All up about 3yrs worth of pay for 6 months work in that financial year. I took the next 6 months off to reduce my tax over the year. My wife hated that I had all that time off.... Even though I had brought home more money that if the job had not ended..... 

Hypergamy goes along with Briffault's Law. Look it up, Google is your friend. IMO, my wife was upset, because I was no longer "Bringing home the bacon" or no benefit from association... For me that money was already in the joint account, and I wasn't making any more for the next few months.... Remember, the attraction with recourses is also the potential to earn also... There were jobs out there, I could have gone to work, I just didn't want or need to. She as loosing attraction for me because of it.

Now, was I a "Good Guy"? I had put all that money in the joint bank account.... As most women joke about, "What's his is mine, what's mine is my own" rings true here. She was going to have to wait to gain any more benefit from me and she didn't like that.... She was proving Briffault's Law was true.... I will just leave it at that...

1 hour ago, chillii said:

And women trading up , they often trade down actually after leaving marriage , should see they guy my ex is with it's embarrassing . Never seen or heard of any women trading up in that sense well unless they were well above him in looks and craving someone better looking. or he might've been a bum or an ah or screwing about obviously she's gonna be wanting something better in those senses who wouldn't don't need theories or rocket science , as would any guy in the reverse too. But in any case that thing called love obviously wasn't involved either , which changes everything .

I know what you are saying Chillii but we as men do not think the same as women... Women value different things or traits than men do. We don't even love the same. It is hard for a man to see things as women do and vise versa... Most actions by the opposite sex is not logical until you take into account of human nature. 

As I stated above: Human Behavioral Biology or Human Nature is not 100% for all people, 100% of the time. The chances are, it will affect most of the choices you make in life for both male and female.

NB: The above is not meant to be an attack on anyone or any group of people. 

[Dis]

Just now, basil67 said:

I think you might be misunderstanding the term 'dating up'.  It's not about improving your standards, but rather it's about finding a rich guy who can improve your status.

From what I read, you're simply wanting an equal.  Completely sensible on your part. 

Yeah but for me that's dating up lol

 

Sad, yes lol 

 

My most recent ex was an LPN. Still reliable income but not enough to live comfortably with a kid involved. I've dated guys who made more than me before but I guess I wasn't as focused on financial security at the time which is awful. Will need to find another one again! 

[Dis]

And btw, I know the start of this thread is about a paramedic who married his former patient and she saw it as a step up somehow

But, paramedics don't make that much

Edited March 25, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
group berating

[Caauug]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

From what I read, you're simply wanting an equal.  Completely sensible on your part. 

I agree 100%!!!!

But that most likely will be a problem in the future if this trend continues. Women are increasing their enrollment at universities, and males are also decreasing at the same time. So if uni degrees jobs tend to pay more on the average than non uni degree jobs, career women will have a harder time finding males to pair with that have a equal or greater income. Put this together with most uni students take on debt while at school and likely before that debt is paid off she will want to start a family....

For men this can be seen as "Why take on debt if you don't need to earn a living?" But this throws the income balance out.... If men are then making less, why take a on a wife that wants to start a family with all kinds of unpaid debt that once he is M to will also be his debt??? This will go against why he didn't go to uni in the first place.

This is all generally speaking... There is always exceptions to the rule.

Some countries education debt is not cancelled with bankruptcy but shared once M.... 

Not my worry, I'm past that age....

[jspice]

2 hours ago, Caauug said:

Human Behavioral Biology or Human Nature or part of human nature. As with any part of human nature it is not absolute or 100% of the time in 100% of the people. There are always exceptions. But to say human nature or part of human nature does not exist because it hasn't affected yourself or someone you know is like ignoring facts. Most people do not like to admit they are driven by human nature.

Hypergamy is a real part of human nature, affecting females mostly... Evolution has made this a necessity for the human race to survive. Now, please understand any part of human nature may not be as strong to you or your friends as it is to other people. Different countries, different cultures, different religions will experience different parts of human nature differently. The generation you belong to and even your caste will also influence how much human nature you are willing to see. 

Money.... Resources is a better word, money is still a resource. Every Most women will have resources on the list for attraction, it may not be #1, but it will be there. Note: Younger women will be looking at the potential to earn resources in younger men. Older men should have the ducks in a row to prove he can provide...

"Good Guys", are they??? They thought they were... "Good" for who? Obviously not for women leaving them or they wouldn't be leaving them..... I touch a little on this below...

Why???

I had the same happen to me, I had taken a supervisor's role for 3+ years, as it was at the end of the mine.  I had heaps of annual leave saved up, and at the end I got a nice redundancy package. All up about 3yrs worth of pay for 6 months work in that financial year. I took the next 6 months off to reduce my tax over the year. My wife hated that I had all that time off.... Even though I had brought home more money that if the job had not ended..... 

Hypergamy goes along with Briffault's Law. Look it up, Google is your friend. IMO, my wife was upset, because I was no longer "Bringing home the bacon" or no benefit from association... For me that money was already in the joint account, and I wasn't making any more for the next few months.... Remember, the attraction with recourses is also the potential to earn also... There were jobs out there, I could have gone to work, I just didn't want or need to. She as loosing attraction for me because of it.

Now, was I a "Good Guy"? I had put all that money in the joint bank account.... As most women joke about, "What's his is mine, what's mine is my own" rings true here. She was going to have to wait to gain any more benefit from me and she didn't like that.... She was proving Briffault's Law was true.... I will just leave it at that...

I know what you are saying Chillii but we as men do not think the same as women... Women value different things or traits than men do. We don't even love the same. It is hard for a man to see things as women do and vise versa... Most actions by the opposite sex is not logical until you take into account of human nature. 

As I stated above: Human Behavioral Biology or Human Nature is not 100% for all people, 100% of the time. The chances are, it will affect most of the choices you make in life for both male and female.

NB: The above is not meant to be an attack on anyone or any group of people. 

Why are you telling me to look things up?

And why are you asking me a question and then answering for me? 
If your wife told you she wasn’t happy because you weren’t making more money, that’s between you and her. 
 

My waning attraction had nothing to do with money. They had invested well and had good pensions due to their long military careers. One was really well off. I wasn’t interested in someone who didn’t work at all when they were in their late 40s and early 50s. They were older than I was but not ancient. They could’ve done something after retiring. It smacked of laziness to me. A lack of motivation and ambition. 
 

I always have a main job and 3-4 side hustles. I love vegging on my couch and watching movies or just being lazy in my free time. I like taking vacations.  But I work my butt off too. I can’t be with a man whose work ethic doesn’t match mine. 
It has nothing to do with money. I don’t ask anyone for anything and they don’t give me anything. I spend my own money. 

[Caauug]

9 hours ago, jspice said:

Why are you telling me to look things up?

And why are you asking me a question and then answering for me? 

The quote was meant to be for general interest, just not you. 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility

[Lotsgoingon]

I don't get this story about a wife who freaks out that her husband, who just scored a major bonus, has some time off. 

Let's go up the ladder here, which is the subject of this thread.

So are we to say that these startup CEOs, who suddenly sell their firms for huge money and then leave the firm they created--are we to imagine that their spouses are walking around unhappy that their partners have some time off as they decide on their next project?

Are you kidding me? Can't imagine that being remotely true.

@Caauug I don't see the story mentioned earlier as remotely relevant outside your one situation. Now there are people, men and women, raised in families that so emphasize "work" that work can become a fetish. Or perhaps your wife has some anxiety about a man being home for a while. (Perhaps she grew up with an unemployed dad or a dad who was only at home when there was a problem.)  Projecting this out to some grand narrative or insight about men and women--absolutely does not work for me. 

 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

22 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

the red pill sphere

Agree. A lot of these hate group theories are a bunch of pseudoscience.

Concubinage  ( many women for men, women seeking upward status) was abandoned centuries ago.

[Soul-shards]

I have not read the entire thread but I have 2 cents.

I ABSOLUTELY agree there is merit to the Hypergamy theory. Of course, the extent to which women are able to follow such subconscious impulses, often buried beneath layers of morality, puritanism, respectability and other human-made constructs, will vary with their own market value.  The not-so-attractive woman who is 'faithful and respectable' is a THING. Cause and effect.

Subconsciously and naturally, women aspire to the perceived BEST MAN out there, period. Nothing else will do for their brains. I once read a very appropriate analogy in this respect - women's brain, in a state of nature, is like an Ivy League admissions officer. Weed out, weed out, weed out for the species - until your eyes rest on The Best. This may, unfortunately, change over the life course, What they tought was THE BEST at 20 might not be so at 40. Of course, just because a woman's eyes rest on The Best doesn't mean she will also be able to attract and secure a guy like that; but her brain will continue to scan.   

The confusion begins with defining THE BEST. People will argue this means 'different things for different women,' that one can't generalize, the jazz. The "Best" can range anywhere from money, status and glory, to power, aggression, coolness and a sense of humor ... or a combo of such things. Physical attractiveness never hurt any human being, but for a man, it means 0 by itself, without being accompanied by any of the above. 

Underneath it all, there is one common denominator: CONFIDENCE. A sense of purpose and leadership. It's an attitude, which may or may not translate into tangible goodies (like money) at any point in time.  Confidence can apply to any area of life from being the bad a** on the block to running a country.

This is why guys with money + confidence/coolness are attractive, whereas guys with money but timid, awkward, and acting as if they're still hiding behind family's skirt - are NOT, no matter the wealth. Sure, a gold digger will grab them, but they will also cheat on them as soon as the opportunity arises, because the female brain needs what is supposed to be beneath the money proxy: the CONFIDENCE. A sense of can do, competence, a quality that inspires protection and security.

If she can get that "feel" from the pool boy while consuming the resources of awkward mama's boy, then pool boy will be.

Likewise, an incredibly handsome guy without any of the above can come across as unattractive to a woman's brain. Women will barely notice an awkward, timid Brad Pitt with an uneventful personality. 

People can chalk up this theory to "angry, red pilled losers" all they want. Men should ignore this as their own peril. 

If you are a not-so-confident "average Joe" whose highest virtue are self-proclaimed 'niceness' and harmlessness, your wife is not an "unattractive but respectable" type, and she comes in contact with a man who can show a few peacock feathers in the way mentioned above... be on your guard. Better yet, drop some of that fabricated 'niceness and harmlessness' so you can stand a chance.  

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Soul-shards

[JustGettingBy]

There's a few points being missed here that I'd like to bring up:

1) Having a good job isn't the only way to make money. I for example have 3 side-hustles outside of my full-time job, 2 of which pay royalties. Bad job = bad money and good job = good money aren't universal, although I will not discount that it is a major factor.

2) As was briefly discussed, most people with great jobs are swimming in debt due to the high cost of post-secondary. Someone who makes $80,000 per year (I'm not using doctor type salaries due to them being an anomaly and am sticking with stuff that's more realistic) but is $100,000 in debt and paying massive interest may actually be in a worse scenario than someone making half that but with no debt and decent savings.

3) Someone making working class salary but who's smart with their money will almost always be in a better financial situation than someone who makes a bunch of money and buys the newest stuff just because they can. A man who makes $80,000 per year but spends $90,000 because he gets the newest tech, take large vacations always eats out, etc. will be in trouble after not too long, even if he's good at hiding it from onlookers. Someone who makes $40,000 but spends $35,000 and invests the $5,000 wisely will likely be fine even if he appears overly frugal to others.

[mark clemson]

One other issue with this (that I think several folks have alluded to) is the term "good guy" (who gets left for a "better" guy). "Good" is vague and subjective enough it can mean almost anything.

There can be a "good guy" who married a "10" who then left for a much better guy (on a variety of parameters, money being one of them perhaps). A "good guy" who married a "2" who clings to him for dear life. And a "good guy" who has e.g. morals and money but such poor looks and/or social skills that he can't find a woman.

There's always been men who've been left behind/not chosen. Circumstances (such as living in a small community) probably come into play for many, personal traits for others. I think it's easy for men who don't really understand "how women operate" (some of whom no doubt are pretty "good" men in a variety of ways) to see money an easy-to-define trait to point the finger at and say "must be that". That's certainly part of it, so they're (IMO) partly right. But only partly.

[normal person]

Money aside, this kind of question does pop into my mind when I see threads along the lines of "I'm really attracted to this guy who's very clearly a liar/cheater/abusive alcoholic/man child/video game addict." It does evoke some sympathy in me for (presumably) honest, nice guys who struggle with women for whatever reason.  

I have similar sympathy for women who are overlooked in favor of someone younger, less educated, etc. It doesn't seem like a one sided issue. It's often as if people are willing to overlook a lot of seemingly objectionable traits in pursuit of something else. 'Just a thought I had. 

[JustGettingBy]

9 minutes ago, normal person said:

Money aside, this kind of question does pop into my mind when I see threads along the lines of "I'm really attracted to this guy who's very clearly a liar/cheater/abusive alcoholic/man child/video game addict." It does evoke some sympathy in me for (presumably) honest, nice guys who struggle with women for whatever reason.  

I have similar sympathy for women who are overlooked in favor of someone younger, less educated, etc. It doesn't seem like a one sided issue. It's often as if people are willing to overlook a lot of seemingly objectionable traits in pursuit of something else. 'Just a thought I had. 

One of the constants in attraction for both genders is confidence. Someone who's faking his or her way through life, making it through on sheer luck, or just cheating their way through is going to be confident despite not really being able to back it up. Someone who sees multiple perspectives of every issue will doubt their abilities and lack confidence, making them less attractive as a result, even if they're ten times the person morally, and would be a much better partner than their competitor. 

[Weezy1973]

50 minutes ago, normal person said:

 It does evoke some sympathy in me for (presumably) honest, nice guys who struggle with women for whatever reason.  

I have similar sympathy for women who are overlooked in favor of someone younger, less educated, etc. It doesn't seem like a one sided issue.

But there’s an implied false dichotomy; nice guys aren’t attractive, and attractive guys (for whatever reason, money, looks etc.) aren’t nice. And of course ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people are average and have no issues with dating.

[Miss Spider]

55 minutes ago, normal person said:

Money aside, this kind of question does pop into my mind when I see threads along the lines of "I'm really attracted to this guy who's very clearly a liar/cheater/abusive alcoholic/man child/video game addict." It does evoke some sympathy in me for (presumably) honest, nice guys who struggle with women for whatever reason.  

 

Same lol . It seems really unjust but I have to remind myself that the world is not fair at all and no one said it was . 

[Wiseman2]

On 3/24/2021 at 11:10 AM, Cookiesandough said:

 Sexual Market Value

Personally I've never bought into livestock theories of dating. Too much like a cattle auction. Bulls get this much, cows get that much etc.

[flitzanu]

i'm not a woman, though here's my input.

all my ex girlfriends may have a broken notion of this hypergamy, because all the boys they've dated after me have been WAY BELOW my scale!

 

😜

 

well, ok, they did have more money....so...

[Lotsgoingon]

The women attracted to liars and cheaters would ruin the lives of "nice guys." Nice guys are fantasizing if they think spending time with these women would be fun. It wouldn't be. Time with them would be thoroughly chaotic and miserable because these particular women are basically attracted to dysfunction or attracted to some other element so strongly that they're willing to live in dysfunction with a cheater and so on.

So while it looks like "nice guys" are getting overlooked, in reality nice guys would be stepped up and lied to and cheated on and neglected by these women (I know a small group) who repeatedly end up dating jerks. The "niceness" would thoroughly be unappreciated. 

And "nice guys" aren't as "nice" as they often imagine themselves to be. Nice guys technically should only be interested in "nice girls." But nice guys get attracted to women who utterly have no appreciation for niceness. Nice guys can go for the same superficial qualities (hotness) as the women that supposedly overlook them. 

It's like Boy Scouts (the nice guys) getting upset at the popularity of bank robbers (the bad boys) and yet the Boy Scouts want to date women who like the bank robbers. Boy Scouts should stay the heck away from women that like bank robbers. 

[Soul-shards]

3 hours ago, JustGettingBy said:

One of the constants in attraction for both genders is confidence.

With the caveat...much more important for men than for women. For men, it is crucial. It is virtually EVERYTHING.

A poor guy who's naturally confident gets more women than an awkward, timid type with money. Granted, money often lends an air of confidence even to the most naturally weak types. but there are well-off guys that are very off-putting due to a weak, wisy-washy personality.  

[Thunder27]

On 3/24/2021 at 10:10 AM, Cookiesandough said:

 I think historically women had a better advantage when they “dated up.

I think because of war, women were often more desperate when it came to finding a husband, otherwise they would get left behind.

Also I think its about status not necessarily how much money. Where I live, blue collar people make more money than say an arts student at university (in lots of cases). However there are women I heard of who only want to date a university student. Someone in Uni could be in debt 1000s, but the status of whatever they are in makes them more desirable. I think its the same idea as what people are already discussing, maybe its just semantics, but that's generally how I see it. 

[SumGuy]

On 3/24/2021 at 11:41 AM, Happy Lemming said:

...Don't tell there won't be a different reaction if the guy is a Cardiologist vs. a plumbing apprentice.

The plumbers apprentice will win hands down, he’ll emerge with a profession where he can charge $100 plus an hour, get the 20% tax rate, won’t have masses of student debt, far more affordable insurance, and plenty of free time compared to a cardiologist...and if he starts even a small business of his own far more money    The trades for the win!

although this “hypergamy” “grass is always greener” mentality is nothing new amongst humans, and a mentality that is the lifeblood of consumer based economies...certainly do not see it as a majority trait for men or women.   

I find it (hypergamy) usually is an excuse made by men who can’t maintain a relationship...it’s not because women are hypergamous, it’s just the guy is an a**hat.   And if the guy also thinks it’s natural for men to cheat...i.e. polygamy...no wonder she left him.    

I guess technically these guys are correct, she did trade up from an a**hat to a decent human being.

[Soul-shards]

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

The women attracted to liars and cheaters would ruin the lives of "nice guys." Nice guys are fantasizing if they think spending time with these women would be fun. It wouldn't be. Time with them would be thoroughly chaotic and miserable because these particular women are basically attracted to dysfunction or attracted to some other element so strongly that they're willing to live in dysfunction with a cheater and so on.

There you have it. 'THOSE' women (meaning women of every echelon, from lowest to highest, who are attractive enough, never mind if they are also intelligent) are attracted to confidece, which "nice guys" often lack, and which is why they adopt the "nice" persona, to compensate.

espite the rumor, "Confident Man" does not necessarily equal "jerk," although sometimes it may. This is a projection of 'weak, nice' guys.   

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

So while it looks like "nice guys" are getting overlooked, in reality nice guys would be stepped up and lied to and cheated on and neglected by these women (I know a small group) who repeatedly end up dating jerks. The "niceness" would thoroughly be unappreciated. 

Yes, because "those" women can't find peace knowing they dated below their value.

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

And "nice guys" aren't as "nice" as they often imagine themselves to be. Nice guys technically should only be interested in "nice girls." But nice guys get attracted to women who utterly have no appreciation for niceness. Nice guys can go for the same superficial qualities (hotness) as the women that supposedly overlook them. 

This is very much correct. In reality, "nice guys" harbor fantasies about themselves being "not-so-nice" and being able to do very...um, daring things with not-so-nice, hot women. They dream themselves James Bond. In reality, they are not, so "nice guy" it is. Note how they resent the dudes who easily get women calling them jerks, in the same manner "unattractive but respectable" women resent beautiful women whom they call...well, 'easy.' 

In the end, 'nice' people settle for each other, stay faithful, and call it a life. 

 

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

It's like Boy Scouts (the nice guys) getting upset at the popularity of bank robbers (the bad boys) and yet the Boy Scouts want to date women who like the bank robbers. Boy Scouts should stay the heck away from women that like bank robbers. 

Perfectly put.

[Thunder27]

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

The women attracted to liars and cheaters would ruin the lives of "nice guys." Nice guys are fantasizing if they think spending time with these women would be fun. It wouldn't be. Time with them would be thoroughly chaotic and miserable because these particular women are basically attracted to dysfunction or attracted to some other element so strongly that they're willing to live in dysfunction with a cheater and so on.

So while it looks like "nice guys" are getting overlooked, in reality nice guys would be stepped up and lied to and cheated on and neglected by these women (I know a small group) who repeatedly end up dating jerks. The "niceness" would thoroughly be unappreciated. 

And "nice guys" aren't as "nice" as they often imagine themselves to be. Nice guys technically should only be interested in "nice girls." But nice guys get attracted to women who utterly have no appreciation for niceness. Nice guys can go for the same superficial qualities (hotness) as the women that supposedly overlook them. 

It's like Boy Scouts (the nice guys) getting upset at the popularity of bank robbers (the bad boys) and yet the Boy Scouts want to date women who like the bank robbers. Boy Scouts should stay the heck away from women that like bank robbers. 

lots of nice guys use niceness as their only option to get a woman (they lie). Niceness can also just mean being a pushover and an over-giver. Thats not very attractive. "Bad boys" are attractive because their confident and get what they want. The sweet spot is to be morally strong, not a pushover, and putting your goals and needs first without being a dick, which I think is rare. Thats what I tend to think anyway and strive to be.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Thunder27