Hypergamy. why 'good'men get left behind?

[Miss Spider]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm sorry @Cookiesandough, I have no idea what you're trying to say here

I was trying to understand if you believe most women would be more attracted to a guy of equal socioeconomic status than she would be of someone of greater or lesser status, all other things being relatively equal( eg. she finds them all physically attractive, no ones a d***). Because it sounds like that is what you said here. You seem to believe that similar  socioeconomic position (current, not even necessary the one in which they grew up/develop?) helps bond them by finding a relationship to each other, thus creating attraction. “You make the same as me? d***, that’s hot. Way hotter than the other guy who makes more/less”

 

23 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I  think most are attracted to others who have a similar socio economic/work ethic/educational background because they are more likely to relate well to each other.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

I don't understand the notion of "all things being equal."  What are these things being deemed equal?

Equal is subjective and therefore has no relevance given that people value different things (qualities, traits) in a person and relationship, some more highly, some less highly.

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[basil67]

@Cookiesandough  if you're suggesting that I think that all women want the same thing, you're misunderstanding me. 

The words *most* and *similar* are important in my statement.    I'm talking about majority, not all.  And I'm not suggesting that everyone will want equal socio economic status, but rather, similar SES is more likely to create the connection required to sustain attraction. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by basil67

[basil67]

Also with regards to your title, I don't believe that "good men" are left behind.    Rather, this is the kind of thing which men who lack the skills to attract a woman/are unrealistic in expectations say.   

I know many, many good men.  And not one of them has missed out on love and/or marriage.  There was one guy who has a facial abnormality and it took him a bit longer, but even he got there in the end.

Edited March 24, 2021 by basil67

[Miss Spider]

25 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I don't understand the notion of "all things being equal."  What are these things being deemed equal?

Equal is subjective and therefore has no relevance given that people value different things in a person and in a relationship, some more highly, some less highly.

You’re right that we’d never know specifically for everyone, because everyone  is different. Just because I am exclusively attracted to homeless guys, I cannot base in an entire argument around that. My question is general, (is higher socioeconomic status, in general, more desirable to women? ) of course this is just a hypothetical woman, but I have to pose it that way for the sake of argument? This is along similar lines of my questions my thread on leagues, it seems. Which interestingly enough, no one really draws issue with the fact that there are people that are in hypothetical leagues ( not just who they are attracted to, but concrete ‘leagues’ that exist, which is something that always confuses me)

 

But anyway,  all I’m trying to say is the only variable here is that the guy has more money. And if I am to understand what basil says, she believes that is less attractive because there is not it lacks similarity -attraction quality or consensual validation ... something that I suppose trumps what a lot of people believe is a genetic desire to find the most is that the most capable mate with the most resources and ability to raise  the healthiest and most successful offspring  That is what many evolutionary psych /:biology people believe, at least. And it’s not like there is not zero evidence for women “mating up” when they have the opportunity to? 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Miss Spider]

7 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Also with regards to your title, I don't believe that "good men" are left behind.    Rather, this is the kind of thing which men who lack the skills to attract a woman/are unrealistic in expectations say.   

I know many, many good men.  And not one of them has missed out on love and/or marriage.  There was one guy who has a facial abnormality and it took him a bit longer, but even he got there in the end.

If your definition of ‘good’ is the ability  to attract someone to love you, I think that’s very sweet. But we are talking apples and oranges, cuz  that’s not how I’m defining it. 

[basil67]

@Cookiesandough that is not my definition at all.   My definition of a good man is pretty standard - a guy who is fun, engaging, thoughtful, good work ethic, respectful etc.  Like the opposite of a 'bad man'.    I don't know any men who fit this definition who've missed out on love

[Miss Spider]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@Cookiesandough that is not my definition at all.   My definition of a good man is pretty standard - a guy who is fun, engaging, thoughtful, good work ethic, respectful etc.  Like the opposite of a 'bad man'.    I don't know any men who fit this definition who've missed out on love

Do you think there are any men like that (extend your imagination even to those you don’t know)  who were left behind for a man who had all those qualities plus better looks and a fatter wallet? Bc if so, my title stands...which sucks anyway , IMO. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

19 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Do you think there are any men like that (extend your imagination even to those you don’t know)  who were left behind for a man who had all those qualities plus better looks and a fatter wallet? Bc if so, my title stands...

cookies, hypergamy definitely exists, make no bones about it!   It's reality and yes I do believe many a "good" man were left behind because of it.  I might even go so far as to say it's the standard in our present social culture, but that still doesn't make it true for every woman.

This was (is) a really good thread by the way, got me thinking which is always a good thing. 😅    Should get us all thinking.

Thanks for creating.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[basil67]

29 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Do you think there are any men like that (extend your imagination even to those you don’t know)  who were left behind for a man who had all those qualities plus better looks and a fatter wallet? Bc if so, my title stands...which sucks anyway , IMO. 

Has a good man been left behind by a woman who wanted more income? Sure, it can happen.   But if he’s saying that he’s been passed over by all women, I’d say that he’s either not such a good guy or is punching above his weight. 

[Woggle]

The difference is that when a good men gets left behind they tend to turn bad. I know many men who went full misogynist after being hurt by a woman. 

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, Woggle said:

The difference is that when a good men gets left behind they tend to turn bad. I know many men who went full misogynist after being hurt by a woman. 

Yes, this can happen to those (of any gender) who lack resilience.  For them, it’s easier to hate others than to learn from experience, dust yourself off and start again.  
I think that the person who hates all because of a handful of bad experiences was already fragile or a bit broken to start with.  

 

 

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

I’m not sure the numbers on that, but I was using examples where celebrities married very attractive people who are not famous or talented, like their hairdresser or a model or something. I see that occur quite often, particularly with men. But saying celebrities desire people in their own ranks is not disapproving hypergamy at all. Since most people believe that celebrities are pretty high in the ranks, it makes sense that they would want someone who is also high in rank. I think that would have a stronger case if using the example of celebrities  desiring an average joe over another celebrity. Or a poor carpenter. Do you think Megan Fox would ever date a poor carpenter? How many poor carpenters would date her? ( a lot)  Anyway, I don’t see what my choice in partners or to not sustain a relationship has to do with this topic at all. I choose to end my relationships because I want to be single. That has nothing to do with whether or not they are guys within my league or out of my league. I’ve dated both and they all end the same. If it’s a problem at all, which I don’t think it is, it would be a problem with me, not hypergamy. 
 

Oops. Sry I completely butchered that. still using voice-to-text

Isn't Zac Efron dating some waitress he met over in Australia?  Like does attract like, but sexual attraction is something that all socio-economic levels can possess.

I still believe that it is more important to women that men be the higher status than it is for a man, since generally men are slightly more focused on looks.

[Trail Blazer]

2 hours ago, jspice said:

A quality man will want a quality woman. 
I love a man who loves my work ethic and my intelligence. 
 

Men who I’ve been serious with valued my education. I caught one of them boasting about my language skills once. He thought I was sleeping and I had no idea he even spoke about me that way  🤣

The ones who wanted the pretty, airhead arm candy that was 15-20 years younger than them eliminated themselves. 
I wasn’t for them and they weren’t for me 

I do agree with this.  I value education and intelligence in a woman.  However, in terms of being sexually attracted, it has zero value. 

I think where men and women differ is that for many women, a man's intelligence forms one of the core foundations of her sexual attraction to him.

[Trail Blazer]

43 minutes ago, Woggle said:

The difference is that when a good men gets left behind they tend to turn bad. I know many men who went full misogynist after being hurt by a woman. 

Guys who have been burnt by women and lost their house, kids, etc. in a divorce do often become bitter.  However, a good guy who backs himself in will find a way through it.

I got left behind a few times.  I lost a lot through a divorce.  I was emotionally hurt by a few women.  But, I dusted myself off and moved forward.  I put myself out there again and found someone better than all those who left me behind.

Not that I'd ever like to think that I'll be left behind again one day.  However, if I do find myself in that position again, I dare say that after some time to heal, it won't stop me moving forward again once more.

[jspice]

18 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I do agree with this.  I value education and intelligence in a woman.  However, in terms of being sexually attracted, it has zero value. 

I think where men and women differ is that for many women, a man's intelligence forms one of the core foundations of her sexual attraction to him.

Naturally, physical attraction is important for most people. I don’t think it has “zero value” (for every man) but certainly it’s less important for men than women. 

[poppyfields]

20 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

I think where men and women differ is that for many women, a man's intelligence forms one of the core foundations of her sexual attraction to him.

Agree.  Trumps looks even.  At least for me.

[Woggle]

Everybody knows how bitter and hateful I used to be and at the end of the day that is no way to live. I have a great marriage that many people would love to have and overall a great life so why was I letting the people who hurt me have that much control over my life. At the end of the day if you are hateful towards half the population that is your problem and not the other half that you hate.

Intelligence and education are great things in a woman but often when a woman says that men can't handle her or are intimidated by her it is just to cover up a terrible personality. It's similar to so called nice guys.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Woggle

[mark clemson]

I definitely think there's something to the hypergamy idea. However, it's a tendency, and I think a claim that "money is all that matters" it's a vast oversimplification. And as a blanket statement for all women it's a vast over-generalization. I suspect that a significant % of these red pill types are hard up or bitter men, looking for simple answers to complex realities.

I think there's truth to the idea that both sexes tend to strive for the best they can reasonably get. But, e.g. some women have a thing for bad boys and even actual criminals. Most of them won't be rich (although some may be "badasses"). Some men "mooch" off women and even hone that to a lifestyle. And many women dig cop, firefighter, and paramedic type guys. Clearly huge earnings isn't what's doing it for those guys. And a certain % of folks view those with excess money as morally suspect. You're unlikely to find a woman with views like that married to a rich guy.

Bottom line is there's many factors at play. For a certain % of women "best guy" may always = richest guy, but I suspect that's a fairly small %.

Here's a quote from an interview with the guys who wrote A Billion Wicked Thoughts. That list is really only a subset, but even there social status (which does correlate reasonably well to wealth) is just one of many factors.

Quote

The sexual cues that tends to trigger arousal in women are mainly psychological, including a man’s social status, his confidence, his desire and ability to protect his family, his emotional availability, his emotional commitment, his strong sexual desire for her, and his popularity with other women—all common elements in romantic and erotic stories for women.

My two cents.

Edited March 25, 2021 by mark clemson

[dramafreezone]

11 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

No... not all.  Just 99.99%

Whenever a woman meets a new guy and she is talking to her girlfriend (bff) about this new guy; the very first question the bff asks is "What does he do for a living??"  The bff is then going to compare her boyfriend to her friend's new suitor.

Don't tell there won't be a different reaction if the guy is a Cardiologist vs. a plumbing apprentice.

 

 

It's not that linear though.  I would've done a lot better with women a lot earlier if it were *all* about the money.

A lot of cardiologists can't get a date.   And a lot of plumbing apprentices have more women than they have time for.  I saw this firsthand with my older brother.  My brother is hovering around the poverty line, has never had a steady, well paying job and he's always been very gifted at attracting women, *pretty women* with careers.  It's kind of like when you're blind and your other senses become heightened.  A lot of guys without money are inherently more skilled at seduction because they have to be.

Women are definitely hypergamous, but it's an error to think it's money that they aspire to be near.  A lot of guys without the money actually develop the skills, the charisma, the mouthpiece to charm women.  Those are qualities that they want to be around because they make her feel sexy and desired.  Many men with money feel that they don't have to develop these qualities because well, they have money.

Many times a woman will date the cardiologist, go on shopping sprees with his platinum card and drive his Maserati over to the plumbing apprentice's apartment when she gets a chance.  

Money is incidental with men that do well with women, and other than gold diggers I really don't think women care that much about it.   Is he a physically strong guy, does he feel safe in her presence?  Is he ambitious, does he want to build an empire, that's attractive.   Is he competitive, does he have the ability to dominate other men, again attractive.  Have to look deeper than just the bank account.

Edited March 25, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

Has a good man been left behind by a woman who wanted more income? Sure, it can happen.   But if he’s saying that he’s been passed over by all women, I’d say that he’s either not such a good guy or is punching above his weight. 

It’s like saying has a woman ever been left for a younger, slimmer woman? Probably. But is it the rule? Probably not.

[Miss Spider]

43 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It’s like saying has a woman ever been left for a younger, slimmer woman? Probably. But is it the rule? Probably not.

Can we say that a lot of really good guys( going by what basil’s definition) are overlooked or left behind in dating because they are not successful or have those characteristics women associate with success( and they highly prefer it if given the option) ? Generally speaking, of course  ? I guess maybe, maybe not. 
 

Thank you to everyone who shared personal experiences and opinions on this. It’s interesting to me! 

Edited March 25, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
requires citation

[Miss Spider]

Hi. Sorry, but please disregard the question in my last post. Since the context was removed, it seems redundant now..
 

Thank you again, everyone!

Edited March 25, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

@Cookiesandough So, some guys complain about being left behind.  Let's look at who those guys are and how they date.

If we're talking about a guy who thinks he's a good guy, but he will only consider women who have the highest SMV, then yes, he probably does get left behind.  There's only so many of those women to go around.   And to be clear, I don't think this is about hypergamy, but rather, it's because this man is punching above. 

If we're talking about a guy who thinks he's a good guy and is open to a relationship with a woman of a similar +/- SMV but none of those women will give them a chance, then it's likely  there's something wrong with the way he appears/his approach/he's not actually a good guy.    

I think it's important to remember that this problem is in essence, the "nice guy's lament"

[chillii]

So many book and hogwash out there now , so many theories on such natural things, you know, it doesn't belong nor is needed , or all the scientific angels written up everywhere too , so much analyzing it's just become bloody insane. No wonder so many people are so effd up these days.

Men have a hard time staying away from other women bc there's just so many other women out there , wearing sexy stuff and tempting us left and right. The last thing on my mind back in the day was spreading seed so to speak , jezuz you kidding , maul her from head to toe was a bit more honest and realistic, then you'd see another and another and 100s more. That's by 10 fold the hardest part of sticking with one woman, by 1000miles.

And women trading up , they often trade down actually after leaving marriage , should see they guy my ex is with it's embarrassing . Never seen or heard of any women trading up in that sense well unless they were well above him in looks and craving someone better looking. or he might've been a bum or an ah or screwing about obviously she's gonna be wanting something better in those senses who wouldn't don't need theories or rocket science , as would any guy in the reverse too. But in any case that thing called love obviously wasn't involved either , which changes everything .

Edited March 25, 2021 by chillii