Hypergamy. why 'good'men get left behind?

[mark clemson]

33 minutes ago, Thunder27 said:

I think because of war, women were often more desperate when it came to finding a husband, otherwise they would get left behind.

My understanding is that roughly 80% of women pass on their genes, vs about 40% of men. Some of that no doubt is the effect of wars and other male "die-offs" in "defense" as well as a higher tendency toward testosterone fueled risk taking (e.g. street racing), jobs that involve more physical risk, etc.

[Lotsgoingon]

I totally agree with you @Thunder27.

My point is that nice guys should start the journey of dating and getting more confidence by looking for "nice girls." Build social skills there until you stop using "niceness" as a strategy. Let one of those nice girls say to them, "hey, you know you can disagree with me, right?" 

[dramafreezone]

 

8 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

The women attracted to liars and cheaters would ruin the lives of "nice guys." Nice guys are fantasizing if they think spending time with these women would be fun. It wouldn't be. Time with them would be thoroughly chaotic and miserable because these particular women are basically attracted to dysfunction or attracted to some other element so strongly that they're willing to live in dysfunction with a cheater and so on.

So while it looks like "nice guys" are getting overlooked, in reality nice guys would be stepped up and lied to and cheated on and neglected by these women (I know a small group) who repeatedly end up dating jerks. The "niceness" would thoroughly be unappreciated. 

And "nice guys" aren't as "nice" as they often imagine themselves to be. Nice guys technically should only be interested in "nice girls." But nice guys get attracted to women who utterly have no appreciation for niceness. Nice guys can go for the same superficial qualities (hotness) as the women that supposedly overlook them. 

It's like Boy Scouts (the nice guys) getting upset at the popularity of bank robbers (the bad boys) and yet the Boy Scouts want to date women who like the bank robbers. Boy Scouts should stay the heck away from women that like bank robbers. 

Very few people are actually nice.  I know one really nice guy and he's always done well with women.  I used to wonder how he pulled it off but it's because that's actually who he is, he's not putting on an act trying to gain the favor of women, because he's equally nice to guys, and I think women can sense it.  I don't think he's a pushover or too compliant, though his wife is more the alpha and he's the beta, but it's not because he's trying to please her or anything, he's just comofrtable in his skin.  It's very weird and he's really the only nice person I know, which is sad to say now that I've typed it down.  I think most others that are nice around me are situationally nice, as am I.

Edited March 26, 2021 by dramafreezone

[Dis]

On 3/24/2021 at 6:03 PM, Cookiesandough said:

I was trying to understand if you believe most women would be more attracted to a guy of equal socioeconomic status than she would be of someone of greater or lesser status, all other things being relatively equal( eg. she finds them all physically attractive, no ones a d***). Because it sounds like that is what you said here. You seem to believe that similar  socioeconomic position (current, not even necessary the one in which they grew up/develop?) helps bond them by finding a relationship to each other, thus creating attraction. “You make the same as me? d***, that’s hot. Way hotter than the other guy who makes more/less”

 

 

Ummm, yes

 

Yup

 

Or, you make more than me? YES and YES! 

[NuevoYorko]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:41 AM, Happy Lemming said:

Whenever a woman meets a new guy and she is talking to her girlfriend (bff) about this new guy; the very first question the bff asks is "What does he do for a living??"  The bff is then going to compare her boyfriend to her friend's new suitor.

Don't tell there won't be a different reaction if the guy is a Cardiologist vs. a plumbing apprentice.

 

 

This is tremendously ignorant and sexist.  

Sure, that's a question a lot of people would ask, but you seem to be coming at it with the assumption that every (or the majority) of women are interested in men and what they do for a living from the perspective of what that can buy for the women.

There is a  whole world out there populated by professional people, artists, social media influencers, etc.  "What do you do?"  is a completely normal question.  We are interested in what people do for a living.

It's a little amusing that the fully indoctrinated "red piller"  can be relied upon to say that all women want to date a cardiologist (because he makes a good living) but also that all women want to date an ex-con biker who hasn't had a job besides cooking meth for the past decade (because women only like "bad boys").

How about thinking of women as individuals.  

[Soul-shards]

5 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

How about thinking of women as individuals.  

Look for the common thread. There IS one.

[Dis]

7 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

 

Sure, that's a question a lot of people would ask, but you seem to be coming at it with the assumption that every (or the majority) of women are interested in men and what they do for a living from the perspective of what that can buy for the women.

 

A guy's career is very important to me when I'm vetting him in the early days. I went out on one a date with a guy who was a bartender and I decided it wasn't a stable enough career for me to date him. Whereas if he had a better job, I would've continued to see him. 

 

With that said, I don't discriminate in terms of what the guy does as long as he makes good money

 

Men with trade back grounds (plumbers, electricians) can make good money too so nothing prestigious is needed. If it takes us on vacas and and gets us a house along with my income, then I don't have an issue 

 

But yes I wouldn't consider a guy just based off what he can buy for me, no 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Dis

[poppyfields]

Speaking of bartenders, true story.  I used to work with a woman who met a man while he was tending bar.  There was an immediate attraction, and she never gave the fact he was a bartender a second thought.  They both fell hard.

Dated for a several months, fell in love after which he told her he owned the restaurant he was tending bar at, and three other very popular establishments in our city, he was worth millions.

You see, HE was vetting her too.

It goes both ways.

[Dis]

16 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Speaking of bartenders, true story.  I used to work with a woman who met a man while he was tending bar.  There was an immediate attraction, and she never gave the fact he was a bartender a second thought.  They both fell hard.

Dated for a several months, fell in love after which he told her he owned the restaurant he was tending bar at, and three other very popular establishments in our city, he was worth millions.

You see, HE was vetting her too.

It goes both ways.

True! 

 

Kind of a rare story though, no?

[basil67]

I don't think it's rare at all.   The owner of a successful bar near me also tends the bar.   What better way to stay in touch with what's going on at the coalface?  

Outside of bar ownership, many people do casual work to support themselves while pursuing a higher goal.  The bar tender could well be studying at university and will eventually have a very successful career.  Or if they are foreign, perhaps they have come to our country but their particular degree isn't recognised here and they need to requalify so that they can work in their field.  

Which brings me back to the janitor, who other men here have suggested would be unwanted because of his job.  What is the janitor's story?   Is he building a maintenance business and working in the job as the company grows?  Is it a second job to send money to his family?  Like the bar tender above, is he doing the work while he qualifies as something else?   Is employment tough and he's doing whatever job he can find so that he doesn't languish on unemployment benefits?  Does he have an intellectual disability, works hard and loves the woman who attends his weekend social group with him?

A man is so much more than his job. 

[5x5]

On 3/25/2021 at 2:17 AM, Happy Lemming said:

Its not the highest quality man... its the man with the biggest wallet.

Actually it is often down to all of the personalities that are involved, whether they can relate and connect. Plus that special can't help but be attracted to or be repulsed by someone dynamic, that matters most.

On 3/25/2021 at 2:55 AM, Happy Lemming said:

In my example a plumbing assistant will work hard, he can be persistent about going to work and learning his trade and he will have some intelligence.

But if he tries to compete with a cardiologist for a woman's affection, he doesn't stand a ghost of a chance...

I've had a few women dump guys with succesful high earning professional careers, who they were with in order to be with me.

Likewise I've also had a few women cheat on their successful career, high earning, partners/husbands to be with me as well, plus a few others who I turned down when they offered.

That said, when I met my now wife, she was far more educated than I, in a higher role and earned more money. Plus she was in a sexual relationship with another man, who was taller than her (she is taller than I), he was also older, educated, had a successful professional career, earned plenty etc. Yet while she was still with him, once she heard a corporate lawyer at work was going to ask me out. My wife decided to ask me on a date. Then we had two dates on the day of our first date, followed by sex on our third date, then after that she dumped the other guy.

I am also the first man my wife has ever asked out on a date, the first man shorter than her who she has been with, and the first man she has asked to marry (she's been asked by other men). On the other hand my wife isn't the only woman who has asked me out on a date, she also isn't the only taller/tall woman I have been with, and she isn't the first woman who has asked to marry me.

While today almost 25 years later, we're still happy together, live a comfortable life, and bang each other much more than rabbits do.

On 3/25/2021 at 3:11 AM, Happy Lemming said:

when I got dumped it was ALWAYS for a bigger wallet.

Not in my experience... I have only been dumped twice and it wasn't for a bigger wallet. Of which both of the women who dumped me, came back for a second round.

 

[Cookiesandough]

Depends on the bar too.... I know some bartenders that make over 100k a year easily ... but I dunno about the longevity of that when you’re talking about stability 

[Dis]

55 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Depends on the bar too.... I know some bartenders that make over 100k a year easily ... but I dunno about the longevity of that when you’re talking about stability 

That's the issue

 

It's not a reliable job. It's not a job where if you lose it, you can easily find another and make the same kind of money.

 

That's why it's smart to have an in demand trade or degree 

[IslandSanctuary]

Hypergamy isn't as rife as the Incel/Redpill/MGTOW/Whatever community would have you believe. 
A lot of bitter men that made bad choices and/or lack discernment and the understanding/awareness of what qualities make a good partner/human being perpetuate the demonization of women. 
Sure hypergamous women exist - a lot of cheating bastard men exist. The world is full of all sorts of people and a lot of them are selfish and stupid. Doesn't mean we should generalize a whole sex based on the actions of a few. 
The most vocal, people that make youtube videos on dating crap, prominent loud mouths in media like the Kardashians etc do not speak for a whole gender. Generally speaking these people are personality disordered/attention seekers. 

If you marry a s*** woman that f***s you over - you have no one to blame but yourself. Legs and make-up aren't everything. Neither is fun. If you prioritize sex then you get what you deserve. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by IslandSanctuary

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately I believe it's overly simplistic to categorize things into

Poor men=good, rich men=bad.

Plain women=good, hot women=bad.

[Fletch Lives]

One of my lady friends said the other day, "I don't need diamonds - just Cheetos and chocolate"! And she looks like Xena Warrior Princess! That's the kind of woman you want to find guys.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Fletch Lives

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Dis said:

That's the issue

 

[barwork is] not a reliable job. It's not a job where if you lose it, you can easily find another and make the same kind of money.

 

That's why it's smart to have an in demand trade or degree 

What about those who are doing bar work while they are earning their degree?    Super, super common way to keep the money flowing.    

 

[LuckyM]

A  old topic here and in history   Probably goes back to ancient Greece and Rome. Karl Marx is famous for saying that if a man has no talent or job but is rich then he is somebody people respect but if he has talent and is smart even with a low job then he is a nobody. A nothing.   Basically true

The working class and immigrant values can be very different and expectations are lower.  Girls marry truck drivers garbage collectors janitors etc and don't complain. Or a guy with no money ambition or goals who lives off his wife. I know many of them from Europe especially eastern like Poland or Ukraine Or Mexico

 

[Gaeta]

I don't know, again that sounds like a bunch of theory that I don't really see in real life.

Just look on here how many women post their stories about being with a man that's lazy, can't keep a job, she provides for him yet she's sooo in love with him. 

Also nowadays you have even numbers of women/men graduating College and University, actually where I am from we have more women graduating as doctors, lawyers, accountants, we also have  more women on the work market. I personally do not know a woman that wants to match up with a man, she is looking for a connection, integrity, and stability. The rest she can offer herself.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Gaeta

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

Also nowadays you have even numbers of women/men graduating College and University, actually where I am from we have more women graduating as doctors, lawyers, accountants, we also have  more women on the work market. I personally do not know a woman that wants to match up with a man, she is looking for a connection, integrity, and stability. The rest she can offer herself.

 

A successful woman who is only attracted to men at her level of success or higher is really limiting her options. If she’s a top 10 percentile earner, that’s 90% of men she’s discounted as an option solely due to hypergamy. While it definitely made sense as a rule when men were the primary or only income earners, it no longer makes sense logically. However that doesn’t mean that a woman raised in a house where dad made the bulk of the money wouldn’t find that characteristic more attractive. I think that culturally a lot of movies and shows still show men as being the primary earners so that might have an effect too.

[elaine567]

A successful woman looking to only date men on her level can not be described as an example of hypergamy.
And of course she will limit her options but she likely doesn't want to date guys below her level, so why would she want to do that? 
The success of the union will be compromised, if she dates down.
A man may wish to marry down as he just wants an attractive cook, nanny and a housekeeper, but what advantage does a woman gain from dating down?

[Gaeta]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

A successful woman looking to only date men on her level can not be described as an example of hypergamy.
And of course she will limit her options but she likely doesn't want to date guys below her level, so why would she want to do that? 
The success of the union will be compromised, if she dates down.
A man may wish to marry down as he just wants an attractive cook, nanny and a housekeeper, but what advantage does a woman gain from dating down?

Funny how it seems acceptable for a man to date a woman earning 30% - 50% less but not the other way around. 

I often give my youngest brother as exemple. His wife is a doctor and he works a bank job. He earns 20% of her salary. It works because they are both highly educated except his line of work doesn't pay a doctor's salary. They have 2 children together and my sister-in-law adores my brother. Financially she married down but intellectually/academically she married her equal. 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Gaeta

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

A successful woman looking to only date men on her level can not be described as an example of hypergamy.

Only her level or higher is what I said.

 

16 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

And of course she will limit her options but she likely doesn't want to date guys below her level, so why would she want to do that? 

Women who don’t want to do it limit their options. I’m not saying she would want to do it, just finding a partner could be more difficult. A high earning woman who genuinely doesn’t prioritize a man’s way income will have more options, and therefore an easier time. Kind of like a man who’s attracted to women with multiple body types versus those who only like slim women. 

 

19 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

A man may wish to marry down as he just wants an attractive cook, nanny and a housekeeper, but what advantage does a woman gain from dating down?

Healthy relationships aren’t transactional. 

[poppyfields]

What exactly is dating "down"?  Less money, less financial success?

I'm sorry I feel a bit ill reading that men are judged and selected this way, and I'm a woman!!

How about she may be dating "up" with respect to honesty, integrity, compassion not to mention the special connection they share together? 

I'm not suggesting money isn't important, it is as far as the ability to provide for family and if a man I am emotionally connecting with has lots of it, for vacays and things it's a nice bonus.

But if he makes a bit less $$ than I but has all the qualities I seek, some of which were mentioned above, then I would hardly consider that dating "down."

What's important (to me) is that he is happy with what he's doing and with his life and being productive, some trades simply don't pay as well as others, can't fault him for that.

And as intelligent resourceful women, we have the ability to earn our own money, if $$$ money is so important to us. 

Apologies if I sound judgy, just a bit surprised reading some of the posts.  Not that I should be, I know and have known hypergamy exists in our current culture. 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by poppyfields

[Woggle]

I expect so little of people that I am almost never surprised except for when people pleasantly surprised me. The state of modern relationships is just plain awful so why would a message board about relationships not reflect that. If things continue on the same course in ten years barely anybody will get together anymore.