WWYD Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: That's ok. It's my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right, but it's what I think. I do think it's malarkey to say that you're attracted to personality and character first. You can't look at someone say, "wow, I bet they have a lot of character and personality," can you? So if we accept that premise that looks have to meet a minimum prerequisite, then it's the most important factor, because she could have personality and character in spades, but you're not even going to consider those other factors if the looks aren't there. I've never approached a girl with the intention of starting a "thing". My relationships have all come from developing feelings for someone I already know, based on liking them for who they are - which is possibly why I've not had many, and the ones I've had have lasted. My shortest relationship was over 3 years, longest for 22. It's like I have to know a lady has a 'good heart' before I'll allow myself to be attracted (admittedly I've got that wrong a couple of times). I think this is also maybe why OLD has been absolutely rubbish for me. Judging people purely on their appearance just isn't my way of doing things. Link to post Share on other sites
dramafreezone Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, WWYD said: I've never approached a girl with the intention of starting a "thing". My relationships have all come from developing feelings for someone I already know, based on liking them for who they are - which is possibly why I've not had many, and the ones I've had have lasted. My shortest relationship was over 3 years, longest for 22. It's like I have to know a lady has a 'good heart' before I'll allow myself to be attracted (admittedly I've got that wrong a couple of times). I think this is also maybe why OLD has been absolutely rubbish for me. Judging people purely on their appearance just isn't my way of doing things. It's not judging people purely on their looks. It's attraction. It seems to me that you're conflating what attracts you to someone with what increases your interest in them. Those are actually two different things. Looks can attract, but they can't raise interest. But looks get you in the door. Someone doesn't have the looks, nothing else matters, they don't even get an interview. But if this is accurate and you can only become attracted to a woman after having a conversation with her and gaining an undersatnding of her character, then you are in the extreme minority. It's not a instinctual makeup that serves the propogation of the human race. What I suspect is that this is instead rationalization, which is you're consciously mapping on reasons why you like a woman after your inner brain has subconsiously already acknowledged her as attractive. There are evolutionary reasons why those physical features matter, guys don't choose to be attracted to a beautiful woman, same with women don't choose to be attracted to a tall guy with broad shoulders and arms. Are theere some that swear they love a skinny pale guy? Sure but they're the outlier. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
hotpotato Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: This is anecdotal. I’ve seen mismatches both ways, but by far the rule is that like attracts like. It’s called the matching phenomenon and has been researched a lot and the results have been replicated many times over. I’ll take objective research over anecdotal opinion any day. You can Google the term and look at the research for yourself. And the research implies that looks are equally valued by both men and women. By metrosexual I mean men that are into fashion, spend a lot of money on beauty products and getting their hairstyled, might wear a bit of makeup, would get Botox etc. I disagree with the whole premise that like attracts like. Maybe because I've actually experienced the opposite and seen it. It's not true. If that were true on fit, in shape guys would be trying to holla at me, and 70 year old men wouldn't try to holla either. As far as what people end up with, people either looksmatch or the women is prettier. Whatever the research says, I rarely see good looking men with unattractive women. In fact, the less attractive a man is the more confidence he seems to have. That has also been researched. If you think I like that, you definitely havent been paying attention to my posts over the years lol. I use gat men bc they are proof men can actually care about and put effort into how they look. Most straight men can barely keep the body fat down. Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, hotpotato said: I disagree with the whole premise that like attracts like. Maybe because I've actually experienced the opposite and seen it. It's not true. If that were true on fit, in shape guys would be trying to holla at me, and 70 year old men wouldn't try to holla either. Ah I see what you’re saying. Yes, people generally try to shoot “out of their league” but most learn they won’t succeed that way. So when I say like attracts like, I mean people of similar attractiveness levels match up in relationships/ marriage. Which is why it’s not something to worry about. 6 hours ago, hotpotato said: Whatever the research says, I rarely see good looking men with unattractive women. Good looking people match with good looking people so yes, it being rare would be expected. 6 hours ago, hotpotato said: .I use gay men bc they are proof men can actually care about and put effort into how they look. Most straight men can barely keep the body fat down. Sure, but a lot of women aren’t attracted to men who care about and put a lot of effort into how they look. And regardless women actually do (on average) spend more time and effort on their appearance which likely accounts for the illusion you’re seeing where you think pretty women are “settling” for average or ugly men. As far as body fat goes, men and women have approximately the same percentage of obesity across age groups: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db360.htm ”Among men, the prevalence of obesity was 40.3% among those aged 20–39, 46.4% among those aged 40–59, and 42.2% among those aged 60 and over. Among women, the prevalence of obesity was 39.7% among those aged 20–39, 43.3% among those aged 40–59, and 43.3% among those aged 60 and over. None of the differences by age were significant.” Edited April 5, 2021 by Weezy1973 Link to post Share on other sites
hotpotato Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: Ah I see what you’re saying. Yes, people generally try to shoot “out of their league” but most learn they won’t succeed that way. So when I say like attracts like, I mean people of similar attractiveness levels match up in relationships/ marriage. Which is why it’s not something to worry about. Good looking people match with good looking people so yes, it being rare would be expected. Sure, but a lot of women aren’t attracted to men who care about and put a lot of effort into how they look. And regardless women actually do (on average) spend more time and effort on their appearance which likely accounts for the illusion you’re seeing where you think pretty women are “settling” for average or ugly men. As far as body fat goes, men and women have approximately the same percentage of obesity across age groups: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db360.htm ”Among men, the prevalence of obesity was 40.3% among those aged 20–39, 46.4% among those aged 40–59, and 42.2% among those aged 60 and over. Among women, the prevalence of obesity was 39.7% among those aged 20–39, 43.3% among those aged 40–59, and 43.3% among those aged 60 and over. None of the differences by age were significant.” I dont know how old you are, but I still remember how girls blossomed in middle school and high school. Most of them came out cute. Quite a few cane out pretty. They generally came out cute with great assets. So no, it's not the makeup, the push up bras, etc. Plenty of women were makeup and they are still pretty and sexy without it. As far as women not liking good looking men, that's not what I see in all womens boards. They go nuts for good looking men, they just dont think they can get one and keep him. So. Women can look around and see that men are very plan at best generally speaking. If you're a woman with physical standards, that can be a serious issue. Sure, men and women have similar body percentages, but excess fat looks terrible in men. Even I see bbws that make me say DAYUM! Some of them have beautiful faces and insane T&A. A fat man is just a fat man. A man's body is not meant to hold a lot of fat. They fat pot bellies 9.9999/10. Their jawline get very soft. They get man boobs. Obesity is not a lifestyle I recommend, but some bbws look amazing. A womans body has more room for error. A woman can be skinny and look sexy or be a bbq and still look sexy. Link to post Share on other sites
chillii Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) lt's amazing the difference in female and male opinions in looks especially weight.l actually feel sorry for women bc it must be very hard for them the second the put on any weight it goes to terrible places and they lose their build and looks so easily, age really badly too unless they look after themselves. Not many women can carry extra weight and still have it. And there's a few billion women out there too with a cute face even shoulders and upper body but heaps of weight below too and you'd have no idea how often us guys later say damnnnnn, either.. Tbh l can never believe some of the observations l read round here but l've actually had women even say to me dozens of times over the yrs things l've said above. Edited April 5, 2021 by chillii Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 4 hours ago, hotpotato said: Sure, men and women have similar body percentages, but excess fat looks terrible in men. Even I see bbws that make me say DAYUM! Some of them have beautiful faces and insane T&A. That’s your preference and no problem with that. But men as a percentage are more attracted to a woman with a slender body than women are a man with a slender body. In other words an overweight woman really reduces her options a lot whereas an overweight man only reduces his options a bit. But what I’m hearing from you @hotpotato is just your opinion. And it doesn’t really make sense. If beautiful women are bypassing good looking men for average or ugly men, then there must be an abundance of good looking single men where you live. If you’re saying there aren’t any good looking men at all, then the most attractive women are likely pairing up with the most attractive men that are available where you live. Which is further evidence of the matching phenomenon. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SpecialJ Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 On 4/3/2021 at 7:53 PM, Katkats7777 said: Are good looks the only thing the counts to women, not how "smart" they are or if they have an Ivy League degree? Its like every time people first see someone they mention, "oh, how pretty" she is and I've seen how some people treat unattractive women, they don't treat them very nicely. And it doesn't seem to matter if they are smart, because they only thing people focus on women is they way she looks...its like what's the point of women studying and going off to college, if women are playboy playmate hot, then they will make a career out of that and who cares if she is dumb? Look at anna nicole smith for example, she had an 8th grade education, pretty sure she wasn't book smart only relied on her looks. Also, even nerdy geeky guys who are not that attractive will most likely choose the hot women regardless of her education? Right. At least that's what this guy told me one time, he said "everything is based on looks, they don't care about college education, if a man see's a cute bartender he will pursue her, of course she can't be trash." I'm like..ok... You may have already noticed that you're going to get a biased subset of responses to this on a forum where people have relationship issues There is a lot of systemic misogyny in our culture. You'll be able to find plenty of men who think the way you're describing, who expect women should only be in school for their MRS degree. I've heard that before. There's still lots of media images and ideals for "hot women," designed to sell things, and yes. It normalizes these attitudes for a lot of people. It doesn't match what you're looking for, though. If you prioritize education, can take care of yourself financially (which gives you freedom), have a lot to offer, etc., then if you're looking for a partner who will share your values and don't care about the noise from the others (because you're secure and self-assured), you'll find what you are looking for. It can be very frustrating and you may need to meet many, many people before finding your match, because as I said, there are a big subset of very shallow people of both genders to cut through. But keep a positive attitude and keep meeting new people, especially ones with shared interests, and bail on the men who treat less attractive women badly. That very much reflects on who THEY are as people (and they are not good people if they treat others differently based on looks, same as a person who is mean to wait staff is no good... these are all good filters). You won't have good romantic relationships with those people anyway, because neither of you is what the other is looking for and compatibility will be shoving a big round peg through a small square hole. The issue here also isn't actually superficial attraction. It's character. Someone can seek out to date only very "traditionally" attractive people and not prioritize anything else, and that's fine. That's what they want, it probably doesn't match what you want. You can only want to date "hot" women but still be a decent person and *not treat everyone else poorly.* Using someone's subjective level of attractiveness as an excuse to treat everyone else badly, however, instead of just respectfully treating people like people and only romantically going for physical attraction is just an excuse to prop themselves up and feel superior instead of insecure. That tells you a lot about someone, and you shouldn't internalize it to be if you were "prettier" or "sexier" then you'd get treated better. No, that's not on you because it's an impossible standard. Do your best to keep yourself healthy (however that looks), which is important for many reasons, and other than that be comfortable with who you are. Because you have a choice, too. Don't make those people talking down to you part of your inner circle, don't date those kinds of men who don't align with you, don't let their talk tracks define yours, and don't apologize for your values. A compatible partner will appreciate that and be worth the wait, even if you need to go through more people and play a bit of a numbers game to find them. They're out there. Link to post Share on other sites
ZA Dater Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 I think looks and material wealth are the two most important aspects, one is sexual attraction, the other is security. Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: I think looks and material wealth are the two most important aspects, one is sexual attraction, the other is security. They aren’t the two most important aspects in relationships, but they are important when it comes to options. More attractive and more successful financially (for men) means you have more options. Don’t underestimate things like charm, humour, and the like either. Again those can play a role. And that being said, it’s possible that confidence is the only real factor. Good looking people are likely more confident about their ability to attract people. Link to post Share on other sites
dramafreezone Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: Sure, but a lot of women aren’t attracted to men who care about and put a lot of effort into how they look. And regardless women actually do (on average) spend more time and effort on their appearance which likely accounts for the illusion you’re seeing where you think pretty women are “settling” for average or ugly men. What is "a lot?" I would guess that the majority of women do appreciate a man that puts effort into how he looks. It demonstrates pride in oneself. Also a lot of men are more confident when they think they look good, and what woman doesn't like confidence in men? Maybe you mean when self-image is taken to the extreme. Anything can be overdone. But a man that wears nice fitting clothes, nice shoes, trimmed beard, nails, clean teeth, you can't go wrong. But that does take effort. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) On 4/3/2021 at 8:28 PM, Katkats7777 said: I'm talking about how important good looks are in women in society and in dating in general. IMO sure they are important, but certainly not the be-all/end-all in either dating OR society. I think several posters have alluded to this in one way or another. Also the things men respond to in terms of "looks" will vary. For example, I've never been overly attracted to most of the fashion model types. Most are a bit too thin IMO. A sweet, friendly personality and some brains can make up for a lot in the looks department, esp. if she's not too bad. And a truly awful personality or severe lack of intelligence can detract a lot from a "gorgeous" woman for many men. There will be takers for both IMO, but the # of men who would accept the first one permanently and not tolerate the second one for too long is probably higher than you think. Edited April 6, 2021 by mark clemson Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 2 hours ago, dramafreezone said: Maybe you mean when self-image is taken to the extreme. Anything can be overdone. But a man that wears nice fitting clothes, nice shoes, trimmed beard, nails, clean teeth, you can't go wrong. But that does take effort. Sure, but it’s not even close to what on average a woman does day to day. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
poppyfields Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) On 4/3/2021 at 10:02 PM, Trail Blazer said: Why? Because we are biologically programmed to want to plant our seed in the most attractive women we can find. Physical attraction is an outward display of good genes. Good genes equals healthy baby. Wow TB, I never knew this. I mean, I knew that a woman's looks were extremely important, most men are visually-oriented and her looks/beauty is the first thing he notices. But to equate it to him wanting to plant his seed to produce a beautiful healthy baby? Is this a subconscious thing cause I seriously never heard of that and perhaps that is what MeadowFlower meant when saying men are like "cavemen"? What if a man does not want children? What if a woman was biologically unable to produce children, would that mean he would not be as physically attracted to her? How does a man know any of this when first meeting such a woman? Apologies for my ignorance, I truly thought it was more simple than this. Man meets beautiful woman = man wants to bang (excuse me, have sex with) with beautiful woman. 😂 Edited April 6, 2021 by poppyfields Link to post Share on other sites
dramafreezone Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 20 minutes ago, poppyfields said: Wow TB, I never knew this. I mean, I knew that a woman's looks were extremely important, most men are visually-oriented and her looks/beauty is the first thing he notices. But to equate it to him wanting to plant his seed to produce a beautiful healthy baby? Is this a subconscious thing cause I seriously never heard of that and perhaps that is what MeadowFlower meant when saying men are like "cavemen"? What if a man does not want children? What if a woman was biologically unable to produce children, would that mean he would not be as physically attracted to her? How does a man know any of this when first meeting such a woman? Apologies for my ignorance, I truly thought it was more simple than this. Man meets beautiful woman = man wants to bang (excuse me, have sex with) with beautiful woman. 😂 It's an instinctual thing. It's hardwiring that's been present since the Stone Age. A man not wanting children is a modern concept, a conscious decision that doesn't really have to do with our desire to mate. We all know it's born of not wanting the financial and time responsibility imposed by modern convention to devote to children. Remove the financial and time obligation imposed by modern civilization, and there's no such thing as not wanting children because they're of no consequence to the man. In the homo habilus days, there was no child support, no courts telling him that he has to take care of his kids, no such thing as a deadbeat dad. Men would have sex with multiple women and not see the women again, much less have anything to do with any of the children. "What if the woman was biologically unable to produce children", again, you're applying a modern circumstance to a species that's been around for much longer than the technology that allowed us to confirm this type of information. All these men that would be lucky to make it past age 20 and had the most primitive of communication skills knew was that I want to have sex with that woman with the big chest and shapely hips. Those are the physical features that evolutionary psychologists believe indicate fertility, and that's what we were put here to do, reproduce. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Alpacalia Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 People all over the world try to reduce each other to a single characteristic. Why don't you just stop putting people in boxes? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 56 minutes ago, dramafreezone said: In the homo habilus days, there was no child support, no courts telling him that he has to take care of his kids, no such thing as a deadbeat dad. Men would have sex with multiple women and not see the women again, much less have anything to do with any of the children. I'm not aware of any evidence that we know what the lifestyle of homo habilus was. From Britannica: where the hominins lived or whether their social structure was prototypical of later hunter-gatherers remains unknown, although H. habilis must have engaged in cultural activities 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Trail Blazer Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 2 hours ago, poppyfields said: Wow TB, I never knew this. I mean, I knew that a woman's looks were extremely important, most men are visually-oriented and her looks/beauty is the first thing he notices. But to equate it to him wanting to plant his seed to produce a beautiful healthy baby? Is this a subconscious thing cause I seriously never heard of that and perhaps that is what MeadowFlower meant when saying men are like "cavemen"? What if a man does not want children? What if a woman was biologically unable to produce children, would that mean he would not be as physically attracted to her? How does a man know any of this when first meeting such a woman? Apologies for my ignorance, I truly thought it was more simple than this. Man meets beautiful woman = man wants to bang (excuse me, have sex with) with beautiful woman. 😂 He might not want kids, but nature intends on him reproducing. The desire for sex is a biological driver to ensure the continuation of our species. Good looks is an outward display of good genes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
dramafreezone Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, basil67 said: I'm not aware of any evidence that we know what the lifestyle of homo habilus was. From Britannica: where the hominins lived or whether their social structure was prototypical of later hunter-gatherers remains unknown, although H. habilis must have engaged in cultural activities My only assertion is that they had sex without being under the influence of divorce courts, chlid support or numerous additional modern constructs. Link to post Share on other sites
hotpotato Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 11 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: That’s your preference and no problem with that. But men as a percentage are more attracted to a woman with a slender body than women are a man with a slender body. In other words an overweight woman really reduces her options a lot whereas an overweight man only reduces his options a bit. But what I’m hearing from you @hotpotato is just your opinion. And it doesn’t really make sense. If beautiful women are bypassing good looking men for average or ugly men, then there must be an abundance of good looking single men where you live. If you’re saying there aren’t any good looking men at all, then the most attractive women are likely pairing up with the most attractive men that are available where you live. Which is further evidence of the matching phenomenon. They may not bypassing them, what I'm saying is there arent enough of good looking men to go around so some of them have to date down. There is o abundance of good looking me because the high number if good looking me did not exist in the first place. I'm basically saying that men are generally soso and quite a few are flat out unattractive. I think you are assuming that there are the same amounts t of beautiful attractive men as there are beautiful attractive women, and that may be where we disagree. I didnt say there were no good looking men. I said men have a tendency to be less attractive and beautiful than women. Some may very well pass on the beautiful man to be with someone less attractive who has things she likes. Maybe she thinks he'd be a better father. Once again, it's not just where I live by any means. I've seen some beautiful women with men who look like they were fed after midnight. I guess one would have to define slender. Plenty of men like bigger women, they're just low key about it. I dont know if I'd call a pretty woman matching with a guy who is a 3 1/2 as like attracts like. Maybe I dont know the ins and outs of the matching phenomenon. Link to post Share on other sites
hotpotato Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 16 hours ago, chillii said: lt's amazing the difference in female and male opinions in looks especially weight.l actually feel sorry for women bc it must be very hard for them the second the put on any weight it goes to terrible places and they lose their build and looks so easily, age really badly too unless they look after themselves. Not many women can carry extra weight and still have it. And there's a few billion women out there too with a cute face even shoulders and upper body but heaps of weight below too and you'd have no idea how often us guys later say damnnnnn, either.. Tbh l can never believe some of the observations l read round here but l've actually had women even say to me dozens of times over the yrs things l've said above. I see plenty of women who are overweight and have great shapes. I on the other hand was working out and had a very unattractive shape (bad body genetics). If I got chunky it looked really bad, but most women dont have my former shape. To tie back in to the cops topic, people esp women will be judged on how they look first. I dont know how or if that is changeable. I know first hand how looks can make people friendlier after I had surgery. It's really sad. I'm the same person as before, but men and women are much nicer to me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, dramafreezone said: My only assertion is that they had sex without being under the influence of divorce courts, chlid support or numerous additional modern constructs. By "modern" do you mean post 60,000BC? Because Aboriginal Australians have been living in family groups for 60,000+ years. And of course, the family unit was well and truly established by the times of Ancient Rome, Mesopotamia and the Vikings. Link to post Share on other sites
ZA Dater Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 I think the entire way people date has changed because those who are good looking always had better choice, the same applies to those with money but with tech the choice has become even greater for those who have two things. Attractive women, I am convinced 95% of value nothing but good looking and a thick wallet and perhaps some other physical attributes, I have spent much of life with what are sometimes called "top tier" people and nothing I have seen contradicts that. Again my own experience, guys who bring other good qualities are out of the race when confronted with with guys with those two attributes. I might be wrong but it seems impossible to overcome. Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ZA Dater said: Attractive women, I am convinced 95% of value nothing but good looking and a thick wallet and perhaps some other physical attributes, I have spent much of life with what are sometimes called "top tier" people and nothing I have seen contradicts that. Again my own experience, guys who bring other good qualities are out of the race when confronted with with guys with those two attributes. I might be wrong but it seems impossible to overcome. Then change your peer group... seriously. You want desperately to hang with the “top tier people” and then complain constantly about their values. Edited April 6, 2021 by BaileyB 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Pumpernickel Posted April 6, 2021 Share Posted April 6, 2021 There are several studies that say that men, regardless of their age, tend to be attracted most to women in their late teens/early 20s, while women are most attracted to men their own age. It’s like – you’re a 70-year old widower and you lust after a 20-year old, or even younger? I find that sad. But it’s just biology, right? I mean – so many things have changed in terms of gender roles over the last century, but the excuse that guys are “more visual” remains, and everything is "biological", and it's an "instinct", men are "wired that way", etc. Look: If women can change over the centuries from only raising offspring (it's their "instinct"), to having a career, raising children, managing a household, having/investing their own money, making their own decisions, why can men not develop into using their brains more, rather than their Stone Age "instincts" like Neanderthals? What it does is that it keeps the patriarchy very much alive, unfortunately, and women are treated like merchandise. Who is/looks the youngest, who has the biggest/perkiest boobs, who is the thinnest/fittest/sexiest, whose legs are the longest, etc. It’s getting old. Men are still very much slaves of their sex drives, and it’s boring and lame. And it’s also dangerous. I wish men were more introspective and less shallow. Just one example: There’s sex trafficking all over the place, girls as young as 14 forced into prostitution. The younger – the better. And we want to excuse this by saying it’s a biological instinct? I am obviously not saying that every guy wants to have sex with a minor, but if the “attraction” is there, by nature, and they’re so helpless, then that danger will always be there, and women and young girls will never be safe. As long as we make excuses about "it's biology; they can't help it; they're wired that way" – that demand will always be there. It's sad. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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